Talk:Mandatory Palestine/Archive 2

778:

misleading. In April, 1920 at San Remo, the powers disagreed acrimomiously about what the precise borders of Palestine would be, so they left the matter undecided. See Stein, among other sources. Before and after Samuel's arrival in June 1920, the British government made it very clear that he would not have authority beyond the river Jordan. Wasserstein and Stein quote from the appropriate documents in the Documents on British Foreign Policy series to this effect. The sequence was as follows 1) Everything is OETA 2) San Remo April 1920 decides that there will be a British Mandate of Palestine, with mysterious borders 3) June 1920 Samuel arrives and sets up the civil administration of the mandate, under British authority, with the legal details not completely ironed out. But the British government makes very clear that the border of "Palestine" and his authority at that moment is the Jordan river. You might call this a separation of Palestine proper from the rest of OETA! A little later, the British even set up silly things like the National Government of Moab in TransJordan (cf Sykes,Sachar) 4) Abdullah gets to Jordan in Autumn 1920 5) The Cairo Conference, Spring 1921, basically run by Churchill, trying to reconcile the various (implicit, vague) promises to everyone, decides that they should add a new article to the mandate document draft, that would allow the JNH provisions to not apply beyond the Jordan and simultaneously decides to provisionally add this territory beyond the Jordan to the projected Mandate territory, with Abdullah as the local satrap, largely because the British taxpayer was complaining about the expense. This is in Fromkin 6) Once this happens, there is no real change of who is running things, or what laws apply, people just accept what happened at Cairo (and Jerusalem a week later) , dot all the legal i's and cross the t's. In particular, Jabotinsky & the Zionist Executive says all this is perfectly OK in 1922. (At the time, why should the Zionists care much? The total Jewish population of Transjordan was 2-3 individuals, according to Sykes.) Zero's post above shows how the legal arrangements confirming this developed. 7) Jabotinsky and the Revisionists start their "exercise in historical mythmaking" to quote Wasserstein, basically saying "we wuz robbed" to make propaganda, and "conveniently forget" that Jabotinsky himself was perfectly OK with separating = in reality adding, Jordan under a different, no Jewish National Home, arrangement.

1455:

Transjordan to be separately treated (article 25 in the text passed in July 1922). On Sep 16 1922, the League Council approved Britain's interprettation of Article 25, namely that Transjordan could be excluded from the Jewish homeland provisions. This was not seen as a new policy but just an implementation. I'll quote the minutes (LofN Official Journal, Nov 1922, pp1188-1189): "Lord BALFOUR reminded his colleagues that Article 25 of the mandate for Palestine as approved by the Council in London on July 24th, 1922, provides that the territories in Palestine which lie east of the Jordan should be under a somewhat different regime from the rest of Palestine. ... The British Government now merely proposed to carry out this article. It had always been part of the policy contemplated by the League and accepted by the British Government, and the latter now desired to carry it into effect. In pursuance of the policy, embodied in Article 25, Lord Balfour invited the Council to pass a series of resolutions which modified the mandate as regards those territories. The object of these resolutions was to withdraw from Trans-Jordania the special provisions which were intended to provide a national home for the Jews west of the Jordan." The French delegate asked whether Britain "aimed at maintaining in the area to the east of the Jordan the general regime of the mandate for Palestine", to which Balfour agreed. The council then approved the motion. --

2524:

in mid-1920 he was explicitly instructed by Curzon that his jurisdiction did not include Transjordan. Following the French occupation in Damascus in July 1920, the French, acting in accordance with their wartime agreements with Britain refrained from extending their rule south into Transjordan. That autumn Emir Faisal's brother, Abdullah, led a band of armed men north from the Hedjaz into Transjordan and threatened to attack Syria and vindicate the Hashemites' right to overlordship there. Samuel seized the opportunity to press the case for British control. He succeeded. In March 1921 the Colonial Secretary, Winston Churchill, visited the Middle East and endorsed an arrangement whereby Transjordan would be added to the Palestine mandate, with Abdullah as the emir under the authority of the High Commissioner, and with the condition that the Jewish National Home provisions of the Palestine mandate would not apply there. Palestine, therefore, was not partitioned in 1921-1922. Transjordan was not excised but, on the contrary, added to the mandatory area. Zionism was barred from seeking to expand there - but the Balfour Declaration had never previously applied to the area east of the Jordan. Why is this important? Because the myth of Palestine's 'first partition' has become part of the concept of 'Greater Israel' and of the ideology of Jabotinsky's Revisionist movement. (Wasserstein, Bernard (2004).

2273:

are worth, to your second post's questions are respectively "was" and "were not" (in 4/20, getting established (provisionally) in 6-7/20, 3/21, etc. until 1923 and after.). I have problems about all the maps, and most or all the captions, which I think are anachronistically overprecise for the period of border establishment. I'll try to dig up an early map of Transjordan I've seen which was squarish IIRC, not the funny polygon it is now. Biger of course would be one of the best sources to answer these questions. Mainly I'm just writing now to praise you (and others e.g. Isarig and Alithien too) for the intelligence and neutrality of your edits and comments. We need to clarify the timeline and make the article more consistent with it and clarify the points of real (rather than pointless revert-warring) dispute. Tomorrow I think I'll update an old editor's timeline in Talk in light of the recent discussions.

2757:

1948). It is also absolutely certain that by the start of 1952 the name was "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" because that is what is stated in the new constitution adopted then. In both cases the constitution is undoubtedly the ultimate authority. As for when the change occured, I don't think we can do better than what the Palestine Post says (March 1949), which corresponds to the moment the UN started using the new name. The UN always uses the names that countries ask to be known by, so that is a very good indicator. The only possible issue here could be that the country began to use a name in practice that wasn't strictly-legally-speaking its official name; only a very explicit source that focusses on this point would suffice to establish that. Further searching of primary sources ought to be done in Arabic. --

2660:

el Hashemiah el Urdun (Jordan Hashemite Kingdom)" on the coronation of King Abdullah (25 May 1946) and that in 1949 there was an argument in the Arab League about Jordan's correct position in the alphabetical list of members. The PP of Apr 4, 1949 refers to "what is newly termed the Hashemite Jordan Kingdom" (this is the name used on the armistice agreement with Israel). On May 6, 1949, PP reported: "Letters in English to the Trans-Jordan Government not addressed to 'The Hashemite Kingdom of the Jordan' will be ignored, the Prime Minister has announced, according to 'El Urdun'". I suspect that "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" and "Hashemite Jordan Kingdom" are just different ways to translate the same Arabic name, and that the name didn't really change after the "trans" was dropped in Jan 1949. --

2547:

of the 3 possibilities discussed for the future of Transjordan at San Remo seems definitive on this point. I agree that a sequence of maps would be best, and with Zero's suggestion that there be pre& post 1921 maps, the first of Palestine proper and then P +TJ, maybe with dates on the other borders. I think "closed to Jewish settlement" used sometimes is probably too strong. There was practically no Zionist interest in settling there in the first place cf. Sachar's book; as I said before the 1921 Jewish population was 2-3 people; Were Jews/Zionists actually prevented from settling there, or was settlement just not explicitly allowed and encouraged? Strict interpretation of the third clause of the Balfour Declaration might have dictated that the answer was just the latter.

3099:. For instance they chose Hajj Amin al-Husayni to become Grand Mufti, although he was young and had recieved the fewest votes from Jerusalem’s Islamic leaders.. Hajj Amin was a distant cousin of Musa Kazim al-Husainy, the leader of the Palestine Arab Congress. According to Khalidi, by appointing a younger relative, the British hoped to undermine the position of Musa Kazim. Indeed they stayed rivals untill the death of Musa Kazim in 1934. Another of the muftis rivals, Raghib Bey al-Nashashibi, had already been appointed mayor of Jerusalem in 1920, replacing Musa Kazim whom the British removed after the Nabi Musa riots of 1920. During the entire Mandate period, but especially during the latter half the rivalry between the mufti and al-Nashashibi dominated Palestinian politics 472:

perhaps years later. The Palestine administration answered only to the British crown until 1923, as you can see from where they submitted all their reports. It did not answer to the League of Nations as a mandatory authority as there was no legal basis for that yet. Until the mandate document was approved by the League of Nations in 1922, the details of the mandate were still being negotiated, not only between GB and the League of Nations but between GB and the other powers (esp. France). One of the things decided during that negotiating period was the disposition of Transjordan, with the complete approval of the League of Nations. As illustrations that I'm not making this up, see

332:

approved by the LoN in San Remo that year. The first High Commissioner began exercising his power under the legal force of the mandate that year. The only legal way for the British to have separated Transjordan was under the legally binding terms of the mandate (specifically, article 25), which already existed. what Syria may politically claim WRT to Lebanon is a red herring here - as irrelevant as political claims that Transjordan is actually part of Palestine. that is not what is being discussed. What is being discussed is what area was granted to Britain as a mandatory power for Palestine - and that area included what later became known as "Transjordan".

209:, had as a member of the Zionist Executive, endorsed the arrangements in 1922 that explicitly prohibited Jewish settlement in Transjordan." But "most Revisionists conveniently forgot that." :-) For later, as his article here relates, "His new party demanded that the Zionist movement recognize as its objective the establishment of a Jewish state along both banks of the Jordan River." Basically he said "we wuz robbed" but forgot to mention he was one of the "robbers." This is pretty much the origin of the confusion and distortion that led to some recent disputes. Another amusing sidelight is the 660:

than was ever historically regarded as part of "Palestine") and further that Transjordan would be excluded from the Jewish homeland provisions. That's a separation of sorts. The first 8 words you emphasise just mean that the Zionists got less than they wanted; nobody disputes that either. The problems come when people put these facts together with the false claim that all of the mandate territory had been promised to the Zionists. That never happened. Incidentally, Britain's "compromise" with France over the northern frontier consisted of Britain getting more than previously agreed (see

4608:"Under the unanimity rule (Articles 4 and 5 of the Covenant), the Council could not impose its own view on the Mandatory. It could of course ask for an advisory opinion of the Permanent Court but that opinion would not have binding force, and the Mandatory could continue to turn a deaf ear to the Council's admonitions. In such an event the only course left to defend the interests of the inhabitants in order to protect the sacred trust would be to obtain an adjudication by the Court on the matter connected with the interpretation or the application of the provisions of the Mandate. 433:

was cisJordanian Palestine, the Jordan river was the boundary, the (proposed) Mandate excluded Transjordan from the very beginning. (This is according to Wasserstein, Stein ( who was Political Secretary of the Zionist organization in the 30s,btw) and the Documents on British Foreign Policy series, the primary source.) and (c) There is no question the mandate document was changed - in March 1921 at Cairo, when Article 25 was added. One thing that I don't understand is what Doron and Kaisershatner mention - What does "Yes, it was later excluded. By 'later' I mean during the

2650:. I also have a translation of the 1946 constitution, which says "(The?) Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan" (I guess the choice between "Transjordan" and "Trans-Jordan" was made by the translator and doesn't reflect a distinction in the Arabic, but it would be nice if someone can confirm that). The name "Hashemite Jordan Kingdom" is frequent in the UN documents for about Apr-Oct 1949, then "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" starts in Nov 1949. It is clear that the usual story that the "Trans" was only dropped when the West Bank was annexed in 1950 is not correct. -- 632:“In the Turkish Peace Treaty, drawn up by the London Conference (February 12-April 10, 1920), finalized by the San Remo Conference (April 18-26, 1920), and signed by the Turkish government at the French town of Sevres on August 10, 1920, the Mandatory for Palestine was tasked with ‘putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people’ ... . This was an outstanding success for the Zionists. 198:

and Palestine under the terms of the mandate and having the JNH only in the latter. The decision was to add Jordan to the Mandate terrritory and "give" it provisionally to Abdullah. It was already "occupied by force by Abdullah and it had nothing to do with the designated mandate" as Amoruso said. .But this did not partition the mandate - which was impossible - Jordan was already controlled by Abdullah more or less, and legally Jordan was still OETA, not being under the mandate's civil administration, not part of the mandate's territory in any sense yet.

2064:

universally accepted primary sources. The problem is that there is no lack of sources that give a brief, cursory version of events that seems to be or support the Revisionist Zionist "we wuz robbed" version, or that even repeat the Revisionist complaint in full detail. I sort of beleved it too once. But when you look more closely at specialist works and try to see month by month what happened, see what the most expert people say happened, this story becomes less and less plausible, its factual, primary source basis more and more elusive.

3813:

authority from the free exercise of the initiative and choice of the indigenous populations. The indigenous population had those guarantees in hand when they declared their independent government, and their independent state in Syria. There had never been such a thing as a mandate before, and there were none in existence at that time. They were only drafted during the San Remo conference, after the declaration of the new Arab state. In any event, they were not ratified by the League of Nations for several years. see for example

185:

of OETA (Occupied Enemy Territory) (mainly) South. But Samuel was explicitly and repeatedly instructed by his superiors that his authority and the mandate only extended to the Jordan river (see Wasserstein, Israelis and Palestinians: Why Do they fight, ca. p. 100 an excellent, too short but very clear reference on this period) "in order to not prejudice the decision of the powers" ( quoted (from memory) from Leonard Stein's Balfour Declaration, footnote on next to last page, another excellent reference.).

3519:"178. With regard to the allegation that the wishes of the Palestine community had not been the principal consideration in the selection of the mandatory Power, it should be noted that the resolutions of the General Syrian Congress of 2 July 1919, in considering under certain conditions the possibility of the establishment of a mandate over the Arab countries, gave Great Britain as a second choice, the United States of America being the first. This choice was also noted by the King-Crane Commission." 2723:"(...). subsequently formally annexed the territory he held on April 1950. A resolutoin to unite both banks of the river Jordan (East and West) was introduced into parliament by a group of Palestinian deputies and was passed unanimously. This act was recognised by Britain three days later. This annexation followed elections held on both sides of the Jordan. In the meantime the country's name was changed to the Hashemite Kindgom of Jordan and theree Palestinians were included in the cabined. (...)" 3910:. Note that the existence of the private Anglo-French Settlement of 1-4 December 1918 only came to light when Lloyd George and the others published their memoirs. There are no records of the Syrian-Mosel agreement in the UK National Archives. The British did not occupy Transjordan, and Lalonde is either unaware of the "Bible Dictionary" border agreement concluded at Deauville, or doesn't give it much credence. She concluded that the principle of uti possidetis de jure was not applied in this case. 1089:

ever; and Transjordania was a new invention, put in place for the benefit of the Hashemite tribe as compensation for ceding Arabia to the Saud family. It may very well be that the original mandate as it was conceived did not see the Jordan as a dividing line; but it's very obvious that Great Britain, in the early 1920s had very good reason for making it so. After all, it wasn't as if the already fragile League of Nations was going to challenge anything Britain decided to do at that point. --

1445:

commission worked for all of 1921 and much of 1922 and decided to make some exchanges of land. Palestine lost the bit of the Golan it had before but gained a region on the east side of Kenneret and quite a lot of land in the Galilee panhandle. This was signed in 1923 and the land transfers were completed in April 1924. According to Biger (p153), Palestine actually increased in area and number of villages during these exchanges (but I can't see that on his map; I'll check his source). --

2315:

the south end of Kinneret that should be fixed. During this whole period Palestine and Transjordan had almost complete administative separation so there is no reason to not show the border between them. Maybe the earlier (end of 1920) tentative northern border can be shown as well on the full scale map but the difference is so small that it will be hardly visible on the thumb, and that would also introduce the problem that the eastern borders were not defined even approximately in 1920.

2319:

For one thing the accuracy of the complaint is highly debatable and captions should not show just one side of a debate. For another thing, NPOV is violated if a Zionist complaint is highlighted but no Arab complaint is highlighted. Why is the closure of east-of-Jordan to Jewish immigration more worthy of mention than the denial of political rights to the Arabs west-of-Jordan? Since it is not possible to do justice to both sides in an image caption, the solution is to mention neither.

4180:

are invited to renounce any right pertaining to them to the re-establishment of such privileges and immunities in the proposed Arab and Jewish States and the City of Jerusalem." States were under no obligation to renounce their privileges and immunities. The history of those international undertakings were discussed as a matter pertaining to the City of Jerusalem during the hearings on Israel's application for membership in the United Nations. see UN DOC A/AC.24/SR.51, page 12

31: 812:

Transjordan. Thinking they did get such a promise leads to an incredible but common story. That source, realroadtopeace, was the best I could find two years ago, and was consistent with Stein's book. Oh well, maybe the margarita + 4 beers had something to do with my blind insanity. Contrary to some crazy wikiguideline, I think this procedure should be obligatory before writing on the Arbraeli-Jewishstinian conflict. Cheers to everyone!

3963:'1. Steps will be taken immediately to prepare for the evacuation by the British Army of Syria and Cilicia including the Taurus tunnel. 2. Notice is given both to the French Government and to the Emir Feisal of our intentions to commence the evacuation of Syria and Cilicia on November 1, 1919'... ...6. The territories occupied by British troops will then be Palestine, defined in accordance with its ancient boundaries of Dan to Beersheba.' 2058:. It is much less pretty than the ones we have been using and you have to crop it to get a good look at the area we are interested in, but what it shows is a "Proposed British Mandate" covering "Palestine" divided by the Jordan from "Kerak or Trans-Jordan." Still saying "proposed" on July 24, 1923, again bolstering what Zero said. The vague but somewhat different borders are of interest too. Perhaps it belongs in the article. 279:. Transjordan was never administrated as part of Palestine and almost all official references to Palestine refer to the territory west of the Jordan River. A map that fails to make this distinction creates the false impression that Transjordan was actually part of Palestine, whereas in fact it was a separate entity. The inclusion of Transjordan is really only relevant to the short period when the Mandate was being established.-- 2070:

into context hopefully and a copy of the pre-Cairo Conference Mandate draft. Aaron Klieman has a book on the Cairo Conference which might be helpful. Wasserstein's other books would be good too. An important thing to do is to change back the San Remo article and things which link to it. Someone irrationally insists it should be Sanremo because that's what Italians call it nowadays. That's like insisting we should call the

695:, for example. Note that nobody here is proposing that the image caption expresses the Arab position that the mandate was designed to deprive the Arab inhabitants of their right to self-determination in violation of the League of Nations Charter. This "debate" is between the Revisionist Zionist position and the neutral position. Those people trying to push their political positions into the figure should desist. -- 1283:::::: You are looking at the wrong map. Look at page 106. The words you quote do not appear on there. Both maps have accuracy problems. The eastern border had not yet been defined at the time of the San Remo conference. In fact the northern border wasn't defined yet either, but was decided late in 1920. Until that time it might have been anywhere from the Sykes-Picot line (just north of Acre) to the Litani River. -- 1867: 1414:

matches anything from 1% of Palestine to 100% of Palestine (compare the missing "the" in Res 242). The third example is "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine", note the absence of "political". In summary, it was very carefully drafted to allow maximum future flexibility. Any explicit implementation was certain to make one or the other side, or both, unhappy. --

567:

later at the Cairo Conference in 1921. It really wasn't clear what would be done with that area until then, maybe France would get some of it; it was still in OETA. The mandate document (draft) was simultaneously changed -article 25 was added - to allow GB to not apply the JNH provisions there. And then the League and Britain just regularized these arrangements unchanged once they got around to it.

4227:

LoN. Nothing in the Mandate prevented the British from permitting Muslim religious leaders from participating in the courts and councils of Palestine. Article 14 of the Mandate required the appointment of a special commission to study, define and determine the rights and claims in connection with the Holy Places and the rights and claims relating to the different religious communities in Palestine.

605:

Anyway, I found something that can explain the wording inconsistency I found: "The boundaries will not be defined in Peace Treaty but are to be determined at a later date by principal Allied Powers. The mandatory is not mentioned in Treaty, but by an independent decision of Supreme Council was declared to be Great Britain..." (Telegram from Curzon at San Remo to Allenby, quoted in Doreen Ingrams,

1383:

outcomes. One proposal regarded the land as part of the independent Arab kingdom of Hijaz, ruled by Hussein, who had declared himself King of Hijaz. The second proposal regarded the area east of the Jordan as part of the territory over which Britain had just received a ruling mandate, and the third regarded it as part of the the Arab kingdom of Damascus, which was headed by Hussein's son Feisal.

1192:

conference. That's because the borders were still being negotiated. The northern border was first provisionally agreed about 8 months after the San Remo conference and not finally agreed until 1923. For people who want to read about these negotiations, the book of Biger is good and another source is: John McTague, Anglo-French Negotiations over the Boundaries of Palestine, 1919-1920,

2382:). The British claimed (disputed) that the Balfour Declaration applied west of the Jordan and the Hussein pledge applied east of the Jordan, and (objectively) implemented it like that. NPOV requires that the narratives of the different sides be all represented. Jewish immigration to Transjordan is in fact a very small part of the story and unfairly emphasises the Zionist narrative. -- 3468:

This could be served by moving the last term to the forefront, or moving the article to 'The Palestine Mandate'. I don't know enough about this issue to know which of these four titles (or more) would be most appropriate. Seeing as how this talk hasn't seen any activity for over half a year, I think now would be a good time for those in the know to discuss this to improve the article.

1136:

rhetoric seems to be increasingly desperate. Sir Martin Gilbert is Winston Churchill's official biographer, and a leading historian of the modern world. He is the author of seventy-seven books, among them Churchill: A Life, his twin histories First World War and Second World War, a comprehensive History of Israel, and his three-volume work, A History of the Twentieth Century.

826:(UTC) I looked at Gilbert's map and don't have much problem with it. He doesn't say that the whole area was ever given to the Zionists and even shows the much smaller area that the Zionists were hoping to get. Since the Jewish National Home is the topic of his map, it is reasonable for him to include information such as Jewish immigration to Transjordan. The topic of 4116:. In 1881, the Ottoman Empire had established "The Council of the Public Debt". It was operated by foreign bondholders. The agency collected tax revenues from the Ottoman citizenry, and sold development concessions like those held by Mavrommatis to retire the Empire's debts. see Sovereignty: Organized Hypocrisy, Stephen D. Krasner, Princeton University Press, 1999, 3618:

letter, and the "Declaration to the Seven", they declared an independent "government" (not a "state") in 1918. After the Faisal-Clemenceau agreement was concluded, the Arabs declared an independent state and ordered that a decentralized civil government be instituted as soon as arrangements could be made for cessation of the foreign military occupation. see

4663:"This is an article about a legal instrument. " It's about both the territory and the legal instrument. At one time there were separate articles, and they were merged. In light of the size and complexity of the current article, it might be good to have separate articles again. There would be some overlap, but the separate articles might be more readable. 886:

detailed and very authoritative sources brought above are being completely ignored by you. You should be looking for sources of similar eminence that support your case (you won't find any). There is simply no place here for your false image and its phoney caption. (It is also poorly drawn as the Jordan River looks like part of the Dead Sea.) --

476:. Note (1) "on July 1st, 1920, by order of His Majesty's Government a Civil Administration was established in Palestine" (i.e. not by authority of the League of Nations); (2) "the many improvements which the country needs ... have had to be postponed until the Mandate is promulgated" (i.e. there was no official mandate yet). Next see the 1917:(3) the coucil of the League of Nations takes official cognisance of the appointment of the mandatory power and informs the latter that it considers it as invested with the mandate, and at the same time notifies it of the terms of the mandate, after assertaining whether they are in conformance with the provisions of the covenant. 322:. They are also engaging in wishful thinking. In summary, we can describe the facts on the ground for the entire legal life of the Mandate, or we can pretend that the only thing that matters is the position of some of the parties for a short time when the Mandate was still on the drawing board. The choice is pretty clear. -- 1390:

in the mandate was uncertain. Biger then describes an unresolved argument between Herbert Samuel and the Foreign Office about the eastern border and concludes that Samuel "assumed his position on 1 July 1920 without a clear definition of the eastern (and northern) limits of the territory he was supposed to govern" (p174). --

3567:"(a) To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the proce's-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine;" 318:

and Transjordan were separate entities right from the first moment. Removing them from the map is historical engineering. It is worth noting that the French Mandates of Lebanon and Syria were also assigned to France in a single document, which is something that advocates of Greater Syria like to repeat

1835:

included on their maps as well. I included them here because they are recognizable landmarks. Again, I respectfully suggest that you clearly state exactly what your objection is (rather than a rhetorical question) to the inclusion of Gaza and Kuneitra and then provide sources that support your claim. -

4623:

Notwithstanding that assessment, the court agreed with Balfour's view of things and ruled that Ethiopia and Liberia had no legal right or interest of their own in the subject matter of the claim, i.e. the way that the Union of South Africa discharged its obligations with respect to the inhabitants of

4595:

It was no accident, that a British Dominion, or Commonwealth, questioned legal effectiveness and validity of the mandates in a series of cases that stretched into the 1970s. In 1961, two former League of Nations member countries tried to invoke the standard compromissory clause. It provided that "any

4468:

This is an article about a legal instrument. The British government claimed the mandates were part of the "Law of Nations", but never acted like they were. Balfour was speaking in his official capacity as the President of the LoN Council in the quotation cited in the article. In the very same breath,

3487:

I have mentioned in the introduction that the British and French governments employed the new League of Nations Mandate system to remove the nascent government of Syria and Palestine, and prevented the formation of an Arab confederation of states. Since this has always been a matter of disputed state

3441:

Israel and Jordan are fine... even though Israel and Jordan weren't created at exactly the same time... it's in the right ball park... but I've changed the Palestinian National Authority to "Palestinian territories" because the PNA was not established until 1994. I'm not even sure we should have any

3109:

The British tried to create divisions among these elites. For instance they chose Hajj Amin al-Husayni to become Grand Mufti, although he was young and had received the fewest votes from Jerusalem’s Islamic leaders.. Hajj Amin was a distant cousin of Musa Kazim al-Husainy, the leader of the Palestine

2688:

The odd thing is that I searched PP for all of 1950 looking for anything about name changes and found nothing. There are lots of articles about the annexation though. I guess some minor administrative thing might not have been worth a mention, but on the other hand, Rogan and Shlaim might be wrong.

2619:

It is well known and documented that TransJordan was given to the Hashemites by Churchill in 'thanks' for their siding with the alies. They were landless as they were kicked out of Arabia for their treason! Giving away 78% of the Mandate was an illegal act. The new Hashemtite 'Kingdom' was also to be

2546:

is not being assimilated ' part. Since I've been saying for a while that this point Wasserstein makes is the best way to characterize what happened, I feel happy that at last he (& I) have definitely made a convert! Sorry for not posting this extract & more myself earlier. Zero's exposition

2297:

A controverse must be introduced in respecting NPoV and therefore explained in the main body of the article with its appropriate weight. For a "fixed picture", Zero/Ramalitte 's map is accurate, more neutral (and nicer). An improvement would be to have on the same map the history of the facts showing

2037:

the Mandate to Britain. Not sure if he is right (HWNAL) since I think earlier documents the Turks signed may have given them this power; the text of the San Remo resolution I linked to seems to indicate this. Of course, this point only strengthens Zero's overwhelming case above if that were possible.

1807:

In the Turkish Peace Treaty, drawn up by the London Conference (February 12-April 10, 1920), finalized by the San Remo Conference (April 18-26, 1920), and signed by the Turkish government at the French town of Sevres on August 10, 1920, the Mandatory for Palestine was tasked with ‘putting into effect

1425:

On point #4, most legal texts I looked at used the words "draft" or "provisional" or "interregnal" rather than "de facto" but maybe that's not so important. The British started acting like there was a mandate in most respects when they established the civil administration in 1920 (before the borders

1139:

You also reject, The Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs published document because they have “another motive, which should be obvious.” So you are saying that The Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs is lying; and, you know the reason why. Well, what is it? Be specific and show how it serve them to

1062:

labeled "British Mandate 1920-1948". The boundary line marked by Gilbert runs right down the Jordan River! So your source Martin Gilbert is willing to label as "British Mandate 1920-1948" an area that excludes Transjordan altogether and you want to use a map that includes Transjordan without naming

955:

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights

659:

It is often called a "separation" and there is some sense to that. (I don't completely agree with John Z on this point.) The meaning of "Palestine" was not initially precise. During the negotiation period 1919-1922, it was decided that Transjordan would be included in the Mandate (much more of it

586:

If you look at maps like in Martin Gilbert's map book, you can see that there is something in the oft heard story that doesn't make sense. Earlier, in Paris or Versailles at the end of the war, the Zionists tried to get a fatter Palestine as the mandate territory, going up to the railroad iirc, sort

471:

and did not immediately create the mandate entity with GB in charge of it. If the US decided that Puerto Rico was going to become independent, it would not be suddenly independent from that moment. Independence would only come at a declared moment after all the legal formalities had been completed,

317:

By the time the Mandate became a legal entity in 1923, the League of Nations had already approved the British proposal to administer Transjordan according to a different set of rules (essentially, all the clauses dealing with a Jewish homeland were excluded). So for most practical purposes Palestine

197:

which occurred before Churchill visited Jerusalem ( A convenient reference is Fromkin's Peace to End all Peace.] . Britain did indeed "alter" the mandate there. The decision was made to ADD article 25 to the December 1920 (IIRC) draft of the mandate Article 25 allowed differing treatment of Jordan

4585:

and there were reports from the British Foreign Office that the US had threatened to delay its relief payments under the Marshall Plan unless they would agree to negotiate with the Jewish Agency. Some of its members, like Moshe Shertok, were in jail at the time. No other country was in a position to

4546:

REPRESENTATIVE BLOOM referred to the last sentence of the new draft which referred to the wishes of the communities in question. COMMANDER STASSEN declared that this was quoted word for word from the League Covenant. REPRESENTATIVE BLOOM wondered whether these wishes might not be the majority wishes

4179:

UN GAR 181(II) contained a provision about the Capitulations: "States whose nationals have in the past enjoyed in Palestine the privileges and immunities of foreigners, including the benefits of consular jurisdiction and protection, as formerly enjoyed by capitulation or usage in the Ottoman Empire,

4140:

Extraterritoriality refers to a legal regime where a state claims exclusive jurisdiction over its citizens residing in another state. For example, American consular courts had jurisdiction in both civil and criminal matters in the Ottoman Empire by virtue of treaties, usage, and precedent. The rules

3875:

The Jordan river had been the western limit of the pre-war Vilayet of Damascus. It was not a coincidence that the territory lying to the east of that line was included in the area designated by the McMahon-Hussein agreement for Arab independence. It had been placed under OETA North. The British had

3032:

The defaced red ensign was never the OFFICIAL flag of the mandate, the Union Flag was. The red ensign was only used on merchant ships registered in the mandate. There was also an interesting "Palestine badge proposal" depiciting the old part of Jerusalem (which may have been used on the Union flag

2567:

makes the clearly unintentional mistake of the San Remo borders definitely being P + TJ, but otherwise is quite neutral, and makes the point that Jordan had an interest in the Jordan-is Palestine mythology. Concerning something Zero said, a funny, and I believe true story is that after Lloyd George

2431:

as Dan was unknown. As another example, I have a map that shows the 1920s road (different from the present road) from Banias to Metulla well inside Palestine, but Biger says that the road was in the French sphere. You would think that the actual border descriptions in the British-French agreements

2333:

Zero, I disagree very much with the two complaints you have equated above, but the good news is I agree that neither ought to be mentioned in the caption in that form and I agree that "it is not possible to do justice to both sides in an image caption." The caption should stick closely to objective

2261:

I'm asking for clarification because to me it seems like this is a question of fact. Either the Mandate was or was not called "for a Jewish National Home." Either the borders were or were not established, etc. Mediation shouldn't be required to solve such a problem. Am I missing the substance of

1936:

approval of the Palestine and Syria mandates. It was thought important that these two mandates should begin at the same time, but there was a dispute between France and Italy over the Syria mandate. On September 29, 1923, the French and Italian delegates announced that their disupute was resolved,

1769:

Palestine and Transjordan remained a single administrative unit until 1946, but in 1922, Transjordan was detached from the area to which the Balfour Declaration applied. This has remained a grievance with the Zionist side, but it should be remembered that the area to the east of the river Jordan was

1389:

From this we can see that the boundaries were still vague at the San Remo conference, that Britain (actually the Principal Powers in consultation) had the task of determining precise borders, and that the future of Transjordan was at that point of time undecided even to the extent that its inclusion

777:

Zero, I'm not really sure how we disagree. (I agree with you about everything but this!) I agree that there was a separation of sorts, but it was simultaneous with the 1921 Cairo Conference addition of Transjordan to the projected Mandate, so calling it a separation, rather than an addition is very

576:

No matter what starting date one takes for the mandate, there was never any partition. One can get an idea of why this confusion started, and who did it, from my discussion above. We need not care about "the position of some of the parties for a short time when the Mandate was still on the drawing

538:

But here I have to admit I'm confused, since practically everyone says that the San Remo conference chose Britain as the Mandatory for Palestine. Until an hour ago, that's what I thought too. But, if so, why does it appear to contradict the actual wording of the resolution? It also contradicts the

493:

annual report to the council of the League of Nations". Look, this whole question would be just a minor historical footnote except that some people want to make an argument that the Jews were cheated out of Transjordan (and the Golan, and the Litani River, etc etc). (Amoruso proved this point just

188:

So the original (provisional) eastern border of Palestine was the Jordan river. And all the sequel did in essence was to confirm this in a circuitous way. After Abdullah arrived in Jordan, as related in Kirkbride's memoirs that Amoruso referred to, he asked Kirkbride if he happened to know just who

184:

article, there is no question that in April or August 1920 the borders of Palestine and the other mandates were not yet really drawn. Look at the resolution and treaty of Sevres. I'll speak mainly of Jordan and Palestine. Until Samuel's arrival in June 1920 everything, Jordan and Palestine was part

4691:

by one Meir Abelson, who is not a historian of any standing. Furthermore, he does not provide a source for his quote, which makes it impossible to confirm it and consider its context (which is particularly important given the distinct political slant of his writing). I have been unable to find this

4510:

contained a complete recitation of the text of the LoN mandate, plus eight amendments. One of those required that the US be furnished an annual report and another stipulated that "Nothing contained in the present convention shall be affected by any modification which may be made in the terms of the

4395:

When the question of Palestine was referred to the United Nations, the three Jewish Agency spokesmen claimed it was a legal case based upon the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate. Their legal counsel, Jacob Robinson, published a book about the UNSCOP hearings and made the same claim. See

4154:

Moshe Davis also noted that United States citizens in Palestine were claiming the right to have their cases heard in their own consular courts, under the terms of the Capitulations. see With Eyes Toward Zion: Themes and Sources in the Archives of the United States, Great Britain, Turkey and Israel,

3149:

would have given him the job to satisfy the arab crowd. Another reason is that the former Muftis (his brother and before his father) had done a very good job for the British. Another reason is that the other prestigious "post" (mayor of Jesuralem) had been given to a rival of the Husseinis clan and

2806:

There was an exchange of territories in 1920-22 period between the French and the British concerning their mandate borders. It would not be bad if the map showed the Golan was initially in the British Mandate but there was also territories that were not initially in the British Mandate they came in

2756:

That last one is correct. It is absolutely certain that the name chosen in 1946 was "Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan" because that is what appears on the most important documents, including the constitution (1946), the application to join the UN (1946), and the defense treaty with Britain (March

2659:

More historical trivia. Palestine Post report of Jan 25, 1949: "The Trans-Jordan Government has decided to alter the name of the country to the "Jordania Hashemite Kingdom". And if that's not confusing enough, the Palestine Post of Mar 3, 1949 reports that the name had been changed to "El Mamlaka

2523:

In a telegram to the Foreign Office summarizing the conclusions of the conference, the Foreign Secretary, Lord Curzon, stated: 'The boundaries will not be defined in Peace Treaty but are to be determined at a later date by principal Allied Powers.' When Samuel set up the civil mandatory government

2441:

Hi Zero, I think we agree more than disagree about this. I see your point about "here is the original mandate." Let us instead consider captioning the map more precisely, something like "Mandate of Palestine, approximate borders in 1922. The precise borders of the Mandate were poorly defined and

2318:

As to presentation: this is an article on the Mandate for Palestine, not on the Jewish National Home. Of course the two are deeply related and this should be (and is) a key focus of the article. However, I object to having the map present one particular Zionist complaint ("loss" of Transjordan).

1472:. The truth is that the term "transjordan" came only after the UK decided to give this part of Palestine mandate to the Hasjhemite. This small detail have a clear infulance on the issue of the size alloted to the jewsih homelnd and does the western part need to be split again between Jews and Arabs. 1135:

When it served your purpose you called Gilbert a “serious historian,” but now, according to you his work is not serious but merely “popular.” His book is an atlas, a book of maps that has seen 7 editions. By the way my 1st edition hardcover copy will not fit in my pocket. So what if it did? Your

375:

article: "The conference's decisions were embodied in the stillborn Treaty of Sèvres (Section VII, Art 94-97). As Turkey rejected this treaty, the conference's decisions were only finally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne." So, 1920.

4226:

It tells you why the info was relevant, and documents the fact that it wasn't original research. The European and American States were running their own tax collection department within the Turkish government, and they ran their own civil and criminal courts. The Hedjaz was a charter member of the

2825:

You are referring to the provisional borders (which placed only a part of the Golan Heights in Palestine, by the way). Why should the map of the Mandate reflect provisional borders, which were in effect only for a couple of years, and had no practical consequences because they were poorly-defined,

2747:

an editor has written that the name changed from Trans-Jordan to Jordan in March 1949 and that in 1946, it is the Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan that was founded... (no precise source is given but this book : Harding, G. Lankester. 1959. The Antiquities of Jordan. Lutterworth Press, London. 2nd

2426:

It is difficult because I found lots of descriptions but no maps that match the descriptions. For example, the following appears in a 1925 report: "The boundary line between the two areas was adjusted in Apr 1924, in accordance with an Anglo-French Convention of Mar 1923. An area of 75 sq miles

2392:

To Alithien: Between 1920 and 1924 several land tranfers between the British and French spheres took place. The western edge of the Golan was one of them but not the only one. According to excellent sources I found (which I will post here after I study them some more), the total effect was that

2314:

As to facts: the borders on the yellow-on-white map reflect the facts from 1923 (Anglo-French final agreement on the northern border) until 1946 (independence of Transjordan) except for some stuff about the borders with Arabia and Iraq that I hope we can ignore. Actually there is a small error at

2272:

I agree with you about the importance of the factual dispute relative to the map, and I'm not too sure about the essence of the dispute either. I think once we agree on facts the map decisions should be obvious. The Aiden/Ramallite/Zero map currently used is better IMHO. My answers, for what they

2069:

I think we are starting to amass the material for good articles on these topics. If disagreement remains, we will just have to represent it in the article in the usual way, with reasonable sources. Things that would be nice to have would be a better sourced version of the San Remo Resolution, put

2036:

I think he is saying that it is illegal because it infringed on Turkish sovereignty; the League or Allies wouldn't have the sovereignty to confer on Britain until Turkey formally gave it up. It didn't matter in the end because the Treaty of Lausanne was a few months before the League formally gave

1903:"draft mandates adopted by the Allied and Associated Powers would not be definitive until they had been considered and approved by the League ... the legal title held by the mandatory Power must be a double one: one conferred by the Principal Powers and the other conferred by the League of Nations" 1790:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish

1454:

Concerning Transjordan, it's true that the decisions were primarily made by Britain, but that was what they were allowed to do. The other Principal Powers could have objected but didn't. The League of Nations could have objected but they didn't either. Starting in 1921 the draft mandate allowed

1413:

giving away as little as possible. The prominent example here is "national home" which was a legal innovation. Many people understood "state" but actually it is rather meaningless. The second example is "in Palestine", which replaced an earlier draft that said "reconstitute Palestine as..."; it

1382:

On 24 April, in San Remo, it was decided to hand the mandates over Palestine and Mesopotamia to Britain without precisely defining the boundaries of the mandated territories. The officials of the Foreign Office discussed the future of the area east of the Jordan, and concluded with three possible

1375:

I will answer all four points (on which I don't disagree as violently as you say) but I'll start with the second point. The most extensive study of the origins of the mandate borders has been made by the Israeli geographer Gideon Biger. On page 173 of his book "The Boundaries of Modern Palestine,

1313:

Zero, yes, In know: What other people see in sources is wrong and what you see in the sources is right. Sigh ... Are you callimg me a liar by saying : "The words you quote do not appear" - please apologize at once and stop misleading the debate. At some point you need to intenelize the meaning of

1047:

Palestine" on purpose. You can read Leonard Stein's monograph on the Balfour Declaration (Stein was a senior person in the Zionist Organization) and see that Weizmann was informed already at the time of the Balfour Declaration that Transjordan was not included. It is not a crime to be uninformed

1042:

You are misreading Gilbert. The Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs has another motive, which should be obvious. You can read the San Remo resolution for yourself and see that it copies the wording of the Balfour Declaration. Then you can read the history of the Balfour Declaration and see that it

811:

Zero, you aren't the only one going blind or insane. Some of your older comments ( with the blind or insane part) seem to have appeared out of thin air when I was about to post this. And then you and Ian posted more with an edit conflict. I agree with your comments, nobody promised the Zionists

432:

I disagree with Isarig and Amoruso. One of the points I am trying to make is that (a) San Remo gave no borders because the Powers disagreed (b) the original (provisional) borders Britain gave to the civil administration of the Mandate, only a short time later, the FIRST EVER borders of Palestine,

164:

Wow, now a few millennia are summed up in the (rather unreadable) intro, isn't this going a bit too far? How about restoring the old intro that only introduced the British period, how it began and how it ended (i.e., only mention the Ottoman period, mandate establishment and termination) and leave

4687:

The article states that "American President Woodrow Wilson protested British concessions in a cable to the Brihttp://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:British_Mandate_of_Palestine&action=edittish Cabinet". The only reference for this cable that I could find (except for other Knowledge (XXG)

4035:

in the international condominium and the establishment of an Arab buffer state corresponding to OETA North between the Allied zones of influence on the Syrian Coast and the province of Mosel in Iraq. This had been public knowledge since 1917 when the Russians published the text of the Sykes-Picot

3467:

Currently this article is hosted at 'British Mandate of Palestine'. The introduction introduces it as 'The Palestine Mandate', two other alternatives, THEN 'British Mandate of Palestine'. I think it would be best if the article started off with the name reflecting the title of the article itself.

2377:

The narratives of all sides consist of a mixture of undisputed facts and disputed claims. The Zionist side claimed (disputed) that they were entitled to settle Transjordan and (objectively) that they weren't allowed to. The Arab side claimed (disputed) that Palestine was included in the pledges

2251:

Hi all. Could someone clarify the essence of the dispute that is being proposed for mediation? Is it the caption regarding "Jewish National Home," the specific borders on the map (Golan Heights??) or what exactly? I understand the map is being flipped back and forth, but what are the underlying

1834:

As promised, I looked again at your above quotations and still can not determine how they refute the appropriateness of, or demonstrate that a POV is expressed by, showing Gaza and Kuneitra on the map. If you look at the WP:RS sources that I have provided for this map, you will see that they are

1482:

The name "Transjordan" (Trans-Jordan, Transjordania) as the name of a geographical region appeared during the 19th century (or earlier). Discussion of it as a possible political unit began during WWI. The decision to form an "independent" Arab state in Transjordan was made in September 1920 and

604:

John Z, thanks for showing that I am only going blind and not going insane :-). I did indeed miss the French text. I wonder if there are parts missing from that source, or if it is several things cobbled together, as the mixture of languages looks pretty odd. I have a lead on a better source.

566:

But if you look at what I wrote in "Recent Changes" above, (confirming Zero's statements above) I think things in general should be cleared up. The point is that the initial 1920 territory of the mandate was Palestine proper without Transjordan. Transjordan was not separated later, it was ADDED

4491:

The US had a formal treaty convention with regard to the Palestine Mandate that gave it a different legal standing to pursue the repeal of the provisions of the 1939 White Paper on the basis of those so-called "eight changed articles". No other country had one of those, and it turned out the LoN

4344:

the discussion in the Israeli Provisional Council on the eve of Independence. The British and French had agreed to help establish independent Arab "governments". The Sykes-Picot agreement called for establishment of an Arab state or confederation of Arab states in the French and British indirect

3617:

Re: "Did this "state" have any control over Palestine?" Yes. The Arabs under Faisal had full powers of administration over OETA East, including Transjordan. On the strength of the McMahon-Hussein correspondence of 1915-1916, the Anglo-French Declaration of 1918, the "Hogarth-Message", the Basset

3514:

President Wilson was in attendance, and said the United States was indifferent to the claims of Great Britain and France over peoples, unless those peoples wanted them. He recommended that a commission of inquiry be sent to the region. The King-Crane Commission recognized the Syrian Congress and

2514:

to the Mandate in 1921. Until then it had been part of Occupied Enemy Territories East under the command of Faisal's chief of staff General Ali Riza el-Riqqabi and then part of Arab Syria. The opportunity to add Transjordan to the mandated territories only arose with the expulsion of Faisal from

1509:

A good example of why we don't use web pages to write Knowledge (XXG) articles. Are we really supposed to discount all of the scholarly sources (not to mention Chaim Weizmann's own account) confirming that borders were not decided at San Remo along with those that confirm "Arab Syria", including

1088:

It seems to me there's a distinction that's been missed, which is that between the scope of the mandate as granted by the League of Nations on the one hand, and the mandate as Great Britain chose to implement it on the other. Keep in mind that Palestine had never been a clearly delineated area -

791:

I can do some possible copyright violation and post or email the 3 relevant pages from Wasserstein's excellent, extremely, extremely NPOV book here or on people's user talk pages. This is a book that Wikipedians should plagiarize! I never really felt I understood what happened until I read his

556:

I was the one who put this link in a couple years ago (and wrote most of the San Remo article here). It says in the linked resolution - in French, that GB was chosen: "(c) Les mandataires choisis par les principales Puissances allies sont: la France pour la Syrie, et la Grand Bretagne pour la

4446:

and a statement such as "Under the plan of the US Constitution, Article 1, the Congress was delegated the power to declare or define the Law of Nations in cases where its terms might be vague or indefinite." makes this into a ridiculously US centric one. instead of succinctly saying that the US

3812:

Wilson called for "an absolutely unmolested opportunity of autonomous development" and the British and French had already issued written guarantees supporting the complete and definite emancipation of the Arab people, and the setting up of national governments and administrations deriving their

3251:

More than 200 people were put on tiral in the aftermath of Nebi Musa, among them 39 Jews. One of the rapists who had assaulted the Lifschitz sisters was sentenced to fifteen years in prison. Haj Amin al-Husseini and Aref al-Aref were each given tne years for incitement to riot, but they were no

1179:

User Zero, I looked at your map on page 106 of the "Routledge Atlas of Jewish History." Your illustration was not of an "unthinking" reader, rather it was of a moron. The map is as of 1948. Your example is a pointless waste of time. The map you want to delete is as of 1920 from the San Remo

4551:. The British White Paper was illegal according to the terms of the mandate. The Arabs, he declared, were trying to obtain something for their own protection. The Jews in Palestine were in the minority, and with immigration stopped the Arabs were trying to keep them in the same ratio. MR. DUNN 4305:

That citation makes reference to a resolution of the Council of the League of Nations which made it clear that the mandate territories were not transferred to France or Great Britain, and that they were not given sovereignty over them. The three Ottoman and seven former German territories were

3842:

As for the establishment of Transjordan: The British government insisted on fixing the borders according to biblical formulas. Those were set by the Jordan river crossing recorded in Yehoshua - Joshua 4:1-7; and the limits of "Dan to Beersheba" mentioned in Shoftim - Judges 20:1. Gideon Bigger

2914:

The word "British" is not redundant - it was called the British Mandate for short, to distinguish it from the French Mandate. Anyway the name of the article should reflect the name of the system used by those who established it. The fact that Knowledge (XXG) uses the term wrongly, to denote a

1993:

In Oct 1923, Britain provided the League with two reports on the administration of Palestine and Iraq for the period 1920-1922. The Secretary General's statement accepting the reports says: "The mandate for Palestine only came into force on September 29th, 1923. The two reports cover periods

1191:

The bold border line on the map is identified in the legend as "British Mandate 1920-1948"; don't deny what you can see with your own eyes. Is this map legend correct? As for 1920, neither you nor anyone else has produced a map showing the boundaries of the mandate at the time of the San Remo

885:

would be a Jewish national home. Gilbert only had a few square centimeters to write the caption and couldn't be expected to explain the details. Your interprettation is actually offensive to Gilbert, who as a serious historian would not make such an undergraduate error. On the other hand, the

830:

map is different; adding the Zionist view without adding the Arab view as well would violate NPOV in our case. Gilbert's map shows an area "ceded to the French mandate" but fails to show the area that France ceded to the British mandate at the same time -- that's the main complaint I have with

410:

The Newer map is better and in fact in better quality as far as I can see. It has a nice fixed caption and the correct explanation backed by the best source possible, the Atlas provided by the user posting it. The only reason some people want the original map is to create the false impression,

331:

So, what's actually misleading is both of the responses above, which conflate the date when the mandate's final borders were demarcated , with the date when it actually became a legal entity. The mandate did not become a legal entity in 1923 -it became one in 1920. The mandate was granted and

289:

How is the map misleading? As you acknowledge, during the period when the Mandate was being established, this territory was one contiguous mandate, and 'Transjordan' was a part of it. It was later excluded, and administered separately, and the article as well as the map's caption explain this.

4323:

In 1919 most of the "states" of the world were neither independent nor sovereign. Quite a few of them, like the Crown Colony of India were charter members of the League of Nations. A Confidential report was prepared for the US Government by W. W. Willoughby, Johns Hopkins University, and C.G.

3935:

Nonetheless an "Aide-Me'moire in Regard to the Occupation of Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia Pending the Decision in Regard to Mandates" was placed before the Peace Conference in October 1919. It set the boundaries for Palestine. The border Commission only handled the task of delineating and

2373:

The problem with "here is the original mandate" is that the borders being shown as original borders are not original borders at all. The borders shown are post-1923 borders with an important detail (Palestine-Transjordan boundary) absent. If we want to show the region before the decision to

1444:

that put all of the Golan (in fact, Safed and all points north) in the French sphere. In Dec 1920 France and Britain agreed to a tentative border that put about 20% of the (region now called the) Golan Heights in Palestine and established a boundary commission to determine the details. That

179:

There's been a bit of dispute here. There's good reason for this, as much that is easily available is very confusing or impossible. I thought I might throw my 2 cents in about some things that could be added to help clarify things. First, good work, Ian. This latest version increases the

4030:

Western Palestine had been under international administration since 1757. see UN DOC A/AC.24/SR.51, page 12. The Ottoman courts shared municipal jurisdiction with various Consular courts, and the religious courts of the Latin and Orthodox Protectorates. The Sykes-Picot agreement provided for

2030:

It was becoming increasingly clear to the politicians of the West that a peace treaty with Turkey was not to be concluded for some time yet, so in April 1920 the Allies decided that so far as the Arabic-speaking world was concerned they would implement the provisions of such a treaty as they

201:

To be repetitive, the March 1921 Cairo/Jerusalem events ADDED Jordan to the British Mandate. under a then-modified Mandate document. There was no time whatsoever that Jordan was ever ruled under the full British Mandate document including the Jewish National Home provisions and the Balfour

4728:

is also noted before Hussein-McMahon even though it was promulgated nearly two years later. I believe an encyclopedia should employ a basic chronological logic and let historic dates determine order of presentation. Apparently some others consider different motivations preeminent. Regards,

4094:

The fact that foreigners enjoyed extraordinary privileges and immunities, including the benefits of consular jurisdiction and protection, was addressed in Article 8 of the Palestine Mandate itself (how's that for relevant?). That article provided that at the expiration of the mandate, those

2063:

I don't think anyone is being "mendacious" or acting in bad faith or putting in fake maps. Nobody is proposing to put OR in the article. We are just trying to give the account that the best specialists give, an account that makes sense and is possible, and does not violently conflict with

399:! (Zero: "restore map with better information but without the tendentious caption," and Isarig "false, misleading and POV-pushing caption.") If we can all agree on the "original map" (which one is that?) then we can work on a caption that is agreeable. But without the acrimony, maybe? 4524:

with a decision relating to the Iraq Mandate: "You will recall the exchange of communications regarding Palestine and the view which we have held consistently that this Government has a right to be consulted regarding dispositions made with respect to territories under mandate." That

180:

accuracy and has a lot of good info. Second, I believe Amoruso's version is completely in good faith, but it contains some "well known" but untrue, indeed impossible misconceptions, along with some good points that should be here. As is here now, and as I just reclarified in the

3200:, but I think it supports Khalidi's view. On p.69 of 'the iron cage' he writes: 'The appointment of ... al-Nashashibi ... was another example of this divide and rule policy. ... It can be surmised that among the reasons ... was the objective of inflaming that preexisting feud.' -- 2446:." (My wording is poor, but that is the general idea, something like that, ok?). About #2, I agree that Jewish immigration to Transjordan is a small enough part of the story that it should not be mentioned in the caption- British partitioning of it should probably remain. Ok? 2236:

and add yourself. If you want to add an extra issue for mediation, add it to the "Additional issues to mediate" section. Note that that page is only for accepting or rejecting mediation; there will be another place to post arguments if the Mediation Committee accepts the case.

2432:

would set the record straight, but no such luck. The 1920s agreement includes things like "From Metullah the frontier will reach the watershed of the valley of the Jordan and the basin of the Litani. Thence it will follow this watershed southwards." Eh? I'm still looking. --

3688:

its relation with that part (e.g. why it was not part of the administration etc). So your argument is somehow that since arabs had control over that part they had control over the western part and then the British came and took over. This is just not the way history happened.

4399:

The negotiating history of the Allied and Associated Powers and their published discussions about the obligations arising from their international undertakings are a little more relevant than yet another discussion about the history of the ancient Canaanites and Israelites.

3150:

so it was good that it would be given to an Husseini. Finally Samuel also expected he would be able to keep the country in peace after the 1921 riots. How to take this into account? Could you also check on what material Rashid Khalidi refer to give his analysis? Thank you.

917:, Your objection is a red herring. I make no interpretation, YOU do. I merely report Gilbert. Did Gilbert tell you that your red herring “interpretation is actually offensive?” Did he publish that somewhere or do you still continue to refuse to comply with WP policy of 517:

You see, at that point of time it was not even official that the Mandatory was going to be Great Britain. (Actually there was a strong push to get the USA to take the job, but they didn't want it.) The same lack of decision over who the Mandatory would be appears in the

2585:

Amazon's price for a used copy of Toye is $ 64 greater than a new copy costs from the publisher. It consists of 2500 pages copied from the British and French archives. I've ordered it by interlibrary loan; not sure if that will work. To add to the discussion, Ingrams

1931:

These conclusions are justified by Wright over many pages. In summary, until the mandate was officially approved by the League of Nations it was only a draft. Incidentally, one detail given by Wright (p114) is that the July 22, 1922 decision of the Council was only a

1687:

source: Page 8 of Sir Martin Gilbert's "Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 7th edition," (ISBN: 0415281172) published by Routledge in 2002 and page 10 of the First American Edition of the same book published by Macmillian 1975 (ISBN: 0-02-543370-9) shows this area as

4324:

Fenwick, Bryn Mawr College in 1919 on the subject of "Types of Restricted Sovereignty and of Colonial Autonomy". It listed all of the non-sovereign states, and the limitations imposed upon each of them. In any case, the U.S. had diplomatic relations with most of them.

4345:

spheres of influence (a type of limited sovereignty). Palestine was partitioned with LoN permission, and Transjordan was established in the British indirect sphere of influence as an "independent government", but not an independent state. see the US State Department

213:

established in Transjordan under Samuel's but not the Mandate's authority before the Cairo Conference - the references I put there, Sachar, Sykes are also worth looking at. Were another proof needed, it shows that Jordan was not considered part of the mandate then.

2416:

Hi Zero, I have in mind Metula area was "exchanged" in 1922 but I am confident you have better and more accurate information than I have :-) Maybe an additional map "zooming" on the exchanged areas could also be valuable. If I can help drawing some maps, tell me?

303:

of the Mandate. The map does not show Transjordan at all. At the very least, a map of the Mandate should reflect the political status during almost the entire period of the Mandate, and not just the original territory in the moment it was established. The map in

1808:

the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people’ ... . This was an outstanding success for the Zionists.

4076:

The Covenant of the League of Nations required the "scrupulous respect for all treaty obligations". Most of the nations of Europe and the Americas had extraterritoriality and trade concession agreements with the Ottoman Empire. That is not a new invention or

4254: 3907: 748: 4596:

dispute whatever" arising between the Mandatory and another Member of the League of Nations relating to the interpretation or the application of the provisions of the Mandate could be brought to the Permanent Court of International Justice for resolution.

539:

text of the Sevres treaty which repeats the San Remo wording and adds "The determination of the other frontiers of the said States, and the selection of the Mandatories, will be made by the Principal Allied Powers." Maybe the choice of Britain was made

385:

I don't want 2 maps, and in fact, I'm ok with the original map - I just object to the false, misleading and POV-pushing caption that asserts the Mandate became a legal entity in 1923, post, or contemporaneously with the excision of transjordan from it.

2201: 484:

which states "the principal event of the year 1922 has been the approval by the Council of the League of Nations on July 24th, 1922, of the British Mandate for the administration of the territory" (i.e. it was not official before that). Finally, see

3508:; (4)That if the French occupied the areas of Damascus, Homs, Homa, and Allepo it would be a violation of the agreement. Arthur Balfour was present at this meeting. see pages 1-10 of the minutes of the meeting of the Council of Four starting here: 2610:). Gil-Har agrees very well with Wasserstein's summary quoted above. One extra item I found interesting: at the time of the San Remo conference, some of the politicians thought Transjordan was going to be part of the French mandate for Syria. -- 4511:

mandate, as recited above, unless such modifications shall have been assented to by the United States." The mandate convention survived the dissolution of the LoN, and made the United States Britain's only partner as a "state directly concerned".

104:

This is an old issue here. Several users are attempting to say that the Mandate only included western Palestine. That is a mistake. In fact, the original map was accurate and was changed in several articles. The current version is more accurate.

2737:

On this website, that seems to be an official Jordanian website, they claim the name of "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" was officially chosen on May 25, 1946. They also give the date at which the election described by Milton Edwards : April 11,

1098:

Leifern, you make an interesting and perhaps very useful observation which may help guide certain editor's thinking as well as discussion of the content of the article. However, my involvement to date has been limited to support WP policy of

1968:

That the Zionist Organization did not disagree with this assessment can be seen from a submission it made to the League of Nations in 1921. It refers repeatedly to the "draft Palestine Mandate" and uses the future tense. (League of Nations,

2334:

facts. (1) Here is the original mandate, (2) it was subdivided in 1922 with settlement closed to Jewish immigration east of the Jordan. Whether or not that was a broken promise to the Jews or to the Arabs, it is objectively true, right?

4612:. The only effective recourse for protection of the sacred trust would be for a Member or Members of the League to invoke Article 7 and bring the dispute as also one between them and the Mandatory to the Permanent Court for adjudication." 3263:

On the factual point of view: p.112, in the description of the events, Morris writes that "Musa Qazzim exhorted the crowd to give their blood for Palestine". Tom Segev, p.128 just precise that he did so from the "balcony of the municipal

1770:

definitely included in the area promised to Husayn in 1915; the linking of Palestine and Transjordan had been an administrative convenience for Britain and did not indicate any recognition of Zionist claims to the East Bank of the Jordan

1221:

I also looked at Gilbert's "The Arab -Israeli conflict - it's history in Maps" by Gilbert (published by Weidenfeld and Nicolson 1974) and it is very clear Zero is misleading us. Here is what it sais: on the area of the mandate that is

4145:

The United States insisted that its rights under the Capitulations remained in force, and that its citizens were not subject to the customs, other taxes, or the civil and criminal jurisdiction of the new British Mandatory courts. see

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At San Remo, the Allied and Associated Powers once again agreed to recognize the provisional independence of the existing states of Syria and Mesopotamia. The Palestinians had previously enjoyed the right to participate in the Syrian

3503:

At the Paris Peace Conference, Prime Minister Lloyd George told the allies that (1) The McMahon-Hussein Notes were a treaty obligation;(2) That the agreement with Hussein had actually been the basis for the Sykes-Picot Agreement;(3)

4349:

for a complete explanation. Nothing prevented the French from doing the very same thing in their Syrian Mandate, and Lloyd George said as much at the Peace Conference. This is all notable and very well documented from WP:RS sources

3995:

The members of the League of Nations passed a resolution on 23 September 1923 which contained a list of articles from the Palestine Mandate that were not applicable to the territory known as Transjordan. Here is a link to a copy of

4501:

It is NOTABLE then that the United States never accepted the jurisdiction of the PCIJ, or relied upon the faulty LoN system of supervising the mandates. It had ratified the Hague Conventions, and accepted the jurisdiction of the

2374:

separate Transjordan, we could show the Palestine-Syria border approximately, as that was more-or-less decided in Dec 1920, but we would need to leave the eastern border unspecified as it had not been determined yet even roughly.

4696:. Unless a more reliable source is provided, I would like to remove this quote. Copies of this message are posted in other Knowledge (XXG) articles where this cable is quoted with the hope of finding more information about it.-- 2477:

So it is good. This map gives the borders of 1946. From your side if you can list the villages that changed side we could use the map as support to draw a zoom of the areas exchanged. With cross referencing with other maps if

4715:

I'll leave this to people who know more about editing this specific page, but based on Wiki-available dates the whole section seems to suffer from a non-chronological logic. I note specifically that it currently says 'After

2646:

Alithien above correctly questioned the name of Transjordan at its independence in 1946. It was "The Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan". Amongst other proofs, see the name under which they applied for membership of the UN

1057:

To illustrate the danger of unthinkingly using popular pocket sources like Gilbert's atlases as the final word on anything, turn to page 106 of Gilbert's "Routledge Atlas of Jewish History". There you will find Palestine

1891:

The question of exactly when the Mandate for Palestine began arose above. This being a legal question, I have located a book that is regularly cited as a standard source on the laws of the mandate system: Quincy Wright,

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Apparently, according to you, not only am I, “unthinking,” but so is the Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs. I do not object to their caption and will be delighted to use it. Please read

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changed in april 1950 when Cisjordan was annexed. So I think it can be concluded that Transjordan changed its name to Jordan to notify their annexion of the West Bank even it they prepared this starting 1 year sooner...

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Anyway, does anyone want two maps? The original borders and the division that followed a month later? Seems to me that it would resolve any POV issues, just stating the facts without prejudice, in chronological order.

3252:

longer in the city - the tow of them had fled. Mayor Husseini was removed from his post and replaced by Ragheb al-Nashashibi, a member of a powerful Jesurlaem family involved in a long and bitter feud with the Husseinis

4628:. The court noted that the compulsory jurisdiction under Article 26 of the Palestine Mandate, corresponded to Article 7 of the Mandate for South West Africa and cited it's Mavrommatis Palestine Concessions ruling. see 4542:

and Assistant Secretary of State James C. Dunn during the founding conference of the United Nations at San Francisco. Both were delegates, and they were discussing the terms of article 76 of the draft UN Charter (a

3017:

The title page of the document drawn up at the conference calls it "Mandate FOR Palestine." The text reads: Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine..."

1946:

The same opinion, that a mandate does not come into legal existence until the League of Nations says so, was given in all of the law books I could find that discuss the issue (about 6). These included: Temperley,

1810:“Though they failed to achieve their territorial goals owing to Britain’s compromise with France over Palestine’s northern frontier, and the effective separation of Transjordan from Palestine that followed in 1921, 245:

Glad to help people less lazy than me - which would be practically anyone though! I promised Jay I'd write something about this a long time ago but never did. It makes me feel less crazy staying up so late here.

3048:

I think that what Rhashidi means is that Rashidi was a rival of Musa Qazzem, not of the Mufti. In 1920, Hadj Amin was not yet Mufti of Jerusalem and was quite young to be a rival. Would not Khalidi means that:

2427:

with 20 villages was brought within the frontiers of Palestine. It included the ancient district of Dan...". That's a large area, but where was it exactly? I'm pretty sure that in 1920 the identification of

1467:

The whole problem originated with Zero's Original research map where he tried to claim that the divison (making tarnsjordan a separate part of the mandate) was done in the 1920. see my original complain here:

3880:

explains that the first British tribal encounter occurred after the Battle of Maysalun and the collapse of the Syrian government. Herbert Samuel only left three British officers behind to help administer the

1357:

The Sanremo conference established a mandate, administered under Great Britain, for Palestine, that included parts of the Golan Heights, Transjordan, the West Bank, Gaza, and today's Israel within the green

3546:

A Pan-Syrian Congress, meeting in Damascus, had declared an independent state of Syria on the 8th of March 1920. The new state included Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, and portions of northern Mesopotamia. see

4573:, and the stipulations they inserted into the draft of the UN Charter with regard to the Palestine mandate. The US had a long history of going to arbitration with Great Britain if necessary in cases like 3495:

had called for an independent Arab state, or confederation of states. The portion of the agreement that covered the International Condominium for Jerusalem specifically mentioned the participation of the

1327:

I'll apologise for thinking you were looking at the other atlas when you apologise for falsely stating my position. I have never, not once, denied that Transjordan was part of the Mandate of Palestine.

437:

of the Mandate. " or "The original borders and the division that followed a month later?" mean? What are the precise dates? Maybe I'm being stupid, but I just don't see what you guys are talking about.

933:, Regarding your claim that Gilbert did not have enough “centimeters” to meet your needs for "details", I would point out that he did find the centimeters on the map for quoted text from three documents: 202:

Declaration. There was no partition, just addition of a new territory under different arrangements, at a different time from the original territory. The rest of the history is relatively unproblematic.

205:

A couple more amusing sidelights. What did the Zionists think of this? As Wasserstein relates, the Zionist Executive had no problem with this and ratified these arrangements in 1922. In particular "

3559:

The Supreme Council held at San Remo, Italy, on April 25, 1920 and attended by the representatives of the British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, and the United States (in the capacity of an observer).

3538:

On 6 January 1920 Prince Faisal initialed an agreement with French Prime Minister Clemenceau which acknowledged 'the right of the Syrians to unite to govern themselves as an independent nation'. see

4194:

Again, a very long argument with many facts that tells us nothing about the article and the question. If you want this discussion to be productive you have to be much more concise and to the point.

4482:

to Palestine under the auspices of the Supreme War Council's "Council of Four" to make recommendations regarding the terms and the allocation of this particular mandate. No other country did that.

4392:

The League of Nations Mandates were international legal instruments. The mandated territories held an international legal status. see ICJ Reports, International Status of South West Africa, 1950.

4538:

The US position was not that the 1939 White Paper was unpopular. The US held that it was in violation of the mandate and our bilateral treaty agreement. See for example the conversation between

903:

Do you make the same insult (“undergraduate error “) against the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs that caption the map as “Area allocated for a Jewish National home, San Remo Conference 1920?”

1405:

Now to point #1. I don't know if you have seen the British sitcom "Yes, Minister", but it is a good start in understanding the Balfour Declaration. The aim in such public statements is to

587:

of doubling the size of Palestine. But they were unsuccessful. Then we are to believe that the Powers insisted on giving them much more P + TJ, and then took away TJ Does this make sense?

3110:

Arab Congress. According to Khalidi, by appointing a younger relative, the British hoped to undermine the position of Musa Kazim. They stayed rivals untill the death of Musa Kazim in 1934.

3531: 189:

owned Jordan. Kirkbride candidly replied that nobody really knew. (You can see the lightbulb going on over Abdullah's head. :-) ) Something important that is missing is the March 1921

617:

of "Western" Palestine, to the Zioinists. Not Britain, not the Paris Conference, not the League of Nations, nobody. So the "we wuz cheated" claim is based on a historical fallacy. --

3105:

This sounds as if the appoinment of Nashashibi as Mayor had the purpose to harm the Mufti and create division among the Palestinians, which is not at all the case. May I suggest this:

2286:

I agree with John Z's and Kaisershatner's comments. My point is that the map used should be neutral and not give "credit" to any point of view in some controverses on the topics. e.g:

4306:

initially partitioned and managed under 15 mandates. Nothing in the terms of the Mandate prevented either mandatory from honoring its previous commitments regarding Arab independence.

2846:

If I understand correctly, you are proposing to have a map that show the evolution of the boundary of Palestine? If this is what you mean, then it's a good idea, but it should be in

2292:

should not make believe the interpretation that Jewish had already abandonned 80% of their "home nation's land" to Palestinians given they had been given this by San Remo conference

881:

I'm sorry you don't understand it. "As the region of a Jewish national home" means "As the region in which a Jewish national home would be established". It doesn't imply that the

2966:

I also found "Palestine Mandate" without the "For" or the "Of". I suggest we would try to find "scholar references" or "primary sources" with the use of the different expressions:

1354:

The Balfour Declaration stated Britain's policy that the area known as "Palestine" - with no defined borders - would be the region in which a Jewish homeland would be established.

679:: there was never such an entity as the "Mandate for a Jewish National Home". That name is pure invention. Gilbert does not use it, either. The Jewish national home was to be 3731:

The British certainly had not occupied Palestine at that point in time, but the intended audience had been living there all of their lives. That proclamation was followed by the

2826:

and not the official borders, which were in effect during almost the entire period of the Mandate? Should a map of the Soviet Union reflect its borders during the early 1920's?--

1255:(Previous edit thought you were looking at the other atlas.) I didn't write anything contradicting that. I even agreed with the word "separated", see elsewhere on this page. -- 1143:

In fact, even the Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs, hardly a Zionist advocacy group, caption the exact same area on their map in the same way:

609:, p92.) So the names of the Mandatories were left out of the main text on purpose, for some reason. As for your "make sense?" question, the point is that nobody ever promised 494:

now as I was typing by repeating the absolute falsehood that "all" of the mandate was intended for the Jews.) It's a worn-out political barrow that we should not be pushing. --

415:

although I'm familar with some of the users having a difficult history in this sense), that supposedly the Mandate was only for Western Palestine/Eretz Israel. Well it wasn't -

2468:

It's a lovely map and I hope you noticed the Moshe Dayan autograph on it. Btw, look at the village of Sa'sa, grid reference x=187,y=270. The 1920 border put it in Lebanon. --

3964: 3775:. That decision was taken in accordance with the proscription of territorial conquest and the non-recognition of all acquisitions made by force that had been announced by the 3000:

Sanders, Ronald, The high walls of Jerusalem : a history of the Balfour Declaration and the birth of the British mandate for Palestine, NYC, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1984.

4748:

The Land Ownership section IS NOT BACKED UP BY ANY SOURCE!!! Why is it in there? Other statistics contradict the numbers there. Furthermore, their source is a dead link!

4152:

From New Zion to Old Zion: American Jewish Immigration and Settlement in Palestine, 1917-1939, Joseph B. Glass, Wayne State University Press, 2002, ISBN 0814328423, page 134

3145:- Herbert Samuel's biographer) give other reasons for this. While not among the 3 first, the Mufti would have succeeded in organising "broad public support for himself" and 3043:

Another of the mufti rivals, Raghib Bey al-Nashashibi, had been appointed mayor of Jerusalem in 1920, replacing Musa Kazim who had been involved in the 1920 Palestine riots.

2648: 2346:

nb: Whether or not it is a "broken promise" to these or those, is neither true nor false. It is a question of "interpretation" and they are different ones concerning that.

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Faisal as representatives of the Palestinian people. Decades later the UNSCOP Committee also claimed that the Syrian Congress had represented the Palestinian community:

1915:(2) the principal powers officially notify the council of the League of Nations that a certain power has been appointed mandatory for such a certain defined territory; 1361:

Great Britain made unilateral adjustments to its mandate, ceding all parts east of the Jordan river to the Hashemite tribe, and the Golan to France's mandate in Syria.

505:

it became a legal entity under the San Remo conference, and subsequently, the British began exercising their mandate, through the power of a High Commissioner, in 1920

4112:

Article 18 of the mandate preserved trade concessions of the LoN member states and their companies. That provision resulted in the landmark PCIJ ruling involving the

114:

This is irrelevant to your changes to the map caption. Palestine was given to Great Britain by the 1922 Leagure of Nations resolution. She didn't "alter" anything.--

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The Ottoman's lost their former territories through "dereliction". Sovereignty was in abeyance under the occupation and during the period of the LoN mandate. see

3539: 210: 4605:

The Court noted that the League of Nations wasn't viewed as a legal person and that it relied on member nations to fulfill its purposes. Here is their analysis:

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envisaged. Such action was of course, highly illegal...this irregular conduct was more public spirited than otherwise. It was the only sensible thing to do...

2568:

opined that the borders should be the biblical Dan to Beersheba at San Remo, the question came up just where Dan was - and of course nobody knew. Luckily it

308:

was in the article for a long time and was replaced unilaterally and without consensus to a map that omits the distinction between Palestine and Transjordan.--

4738: 1048:

about history, but it is about time you realised that the copious very eminent sources being provided here make a case that your few sources can't match. --

2506:

A series of maps showing the evolving status of the borders would be best. It's clear from the discussion above that even the simple point that the Mandate

1737:

Since this map is so widely used and has been in existence for so many years and is used at so many Universities around the world, surely you can find some

1394:

09:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC) Note also that the San Remo resolution itself says "within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers". --

956:

of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The Balfour Declaration 2 Nov 1917

644:

Ref: p.257-258, Empires of the Sand, The Struggle for Mastery in the Middle East 1789-1923. Efraim Karsh & Inari Karsh. Harvard University Press. 1999.

2933:

I also prefer "for" over "of". As for "British", I don't see the harm in it, seeing that other colonies also have the name of thier colonial master: (eg.

2698:

Indeed. They can be wrong. I am quite sure I also read this elsewhere but I don't remember where. Maybe Pappé... I try to gather information about this.

2233: 4492:

mandate system was designed so that it could be used to prevent the individual members from taking any legal action on behalf of the Jewish inhabitants.

4142: 3848: 3814: 3736: 3013:

The term appears several times in Biger, Gideon, An empire in the holy land: Historical Geography of the British administration in Palestine, 1917-1929.

4037: 4549:

He declared that according to the Treaty of 1925 no changes could be made in the mandated status of Palestine without the consent of the United States

3877: 3509: 1986:"the mandates for Palestine and Syria would now enter into force automatically and at the same time" (League of Nations Council minutes Sep 29, 1923, 3908:

Determining Boundaries in a Conflicted World: The Role of Uti Possidetis, Suzanne Lalonde, McGill-Queen's Press, 2002, ISBN 077352424X , pages 96-101

3684:

This just shows how twisted your logic is. The article clearly discusses the British Mandate over (western Palestine). Transjordan is discussed only

526:

become the Mandatory for Palestine on account of either of these 1920 decisions. That did not happen until the League of Nations decided it in 1922.

417:

the Mandate for a Jewish National Home was for all Palestine, and this includes both banks of the Jordan river, and it should be reflected in the map

257:

Thanks John Z. Please try to integrate this with the material I presented other than blind reverting like Doron and Ian Pitchford engage at. Cheers,

4050:

This is a new invention/interpretation - that "Western Palestine had been under international administration since 1757". It is original research.

3906:

The application of the McMahon agreement in setting the intra-state Palestine boundary is described in meticulous detail using archive materials in

3259:

In August, Musa Qazzim, who had been removed from his post of mayor of Jerusalem by the British for his role in the riots of April, declared (...) .

480:

of August 1922 which replaced the previous British administration by a mandate administration with a completely different legal basis. Then look at

3744: 3520: 1796: 486: 481: 477: 473: 3739:. The Zionist Organization recognized the Arab State, and the legal competence of the Sharif to dispose of its territory when they concluded the 2378:

made to Hussein in 1915 regarding independence for the Arabs, and (objectively) that this independence was prevented in Palestine. (Look at the

2343:

ok for such captions but let's not forget the territories east of Hulah valley given to French Mandate but initially part of the British Mandate.

2232:

I filed a Mediation request, naming myself, Ian Pitchford, Alithien and Doright as parties. Other people who wish to be parties, please go to

4151: 3728: 3548: 3115:

Nevertheless, The main rivalry that dominated Palestinian politics during the entire Mandate and especially was the one between the Mufti and

1318:

views one is yours and one is the oppsoing view - your consatnt push for your POV and your nulification of the opposing POV is being noticed.

973:

It seems Gilbert found the “centimeters” to provide plenty of words. I suspect that he is quite good at it. You just don’t seem to like it.

3815:

Self-Determination of Peoples: A Legal Reappraisal, Antonio Cassese, Cambridge University Press, 1999, ISBN 052163752X, starting at page 232

4697: 2627: 1553:

does not excuse bad behavior. Clearly an editor felt it was better to try to delete the image after having lost the debate on this page.

1544:

The map is self-made and is not in keeping with the best sources cited in the article in which it is used: British Mandate for Palestine.

4760: 3526:

The Anglo-French Declaration of 1918 had authorized the Arabs to establish their own governments, and they did. Here is a chronology :

2349:

About facts in the article : I think in 1946, it is not the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan that was created but the Hashemite Kingdom of

2180:

except for some capitalisation. Also Geddes gives translations for the French parts and omits the Italian reservation at the end. --

1655:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/facts%20about%20israel/israel%20in%20maps/the%20league%20of%20nations%20mandate%20for%20palestine%20-%201920

81: 76: 71: 59: 3771:

The Allied and Associated powers had already decided that there would be a strict policy of non-annexation. see the ICJ judgment in

1821:

I'm sorry but since you are merely providing seemingly pointless and random quotations that at best represent some kind of unstated

1469: 2590:

quotes a British document giving the boundaries of Palestine in 1921. It says "on the east, the boundary is undefined" (p117). --

2129:

It's a Bank Holiday here, but I've submitted a request to the British Library Document Supply Centre to be processed on Tuesday. --

4364:

There was no such thing as the "Arab government of Palestine" and no matter how long your arguments are they will not change it.

2013:

No dispute at all of course with the above. Indeed, what could be clearer? Particularly glad you found the Zionist statement.

996:

And consistent with Gilbert, the official government website of the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs caption the same area as

4469:

he pointed out that the League of Nations (a non-state entity), had no control over the Mandatory, and never explained who did.

2835:

This reflected the pov of revisionnist zionism in the past and today gives some legitimity to the annexion of Golan by Israel.

3303:

I noticed that Hertz has made an edit changing where the boundaries of the Mandate lie. According to the sources, by 1922 the

2954:

The difference is that there was and is a "non-British" Ceylon, but there had never been a non-British mandate for Palestine.

2289:

it should not make believe Palestine (at the exception of Golan) was something else that the territories west of Jordan river.

4721: 4159: 4120: 3843:

relates that Lloyd George interrupted the Deauville negotiations with the French regarding the northern boundary to consult

3740: 3359:

dates to the rise in importance of the British Empire’s South Asian enterprises in the early 19th century, concurrent with "

2443: 2085:

I didn't find the San Remo text in a printed source yet. Could it be in the Documents on British Foreign Policy series? --

4569:

That's why the US alone entered into negotiations for a settlement that included the joint Anglo-American Commission, the

4143:

The Origin of the Capitulations and of the Consular Institution, Gabriel Bie Ravndal, Published by Govt. Print. Off., 1921

1128:

User:Zero, The problem is not with my reading of Gilbert’s atlas; it is that you don’t want anyone else to. His atlas is

305: 2602:

I just got a copy of a very detailed paper on this subject: Y. Gil-Har, "The Separation of Trans-Jordan from Palestine",

4734: 3443: 3308: 1925:

The mandate texts or charters have been regarded by the League and the mandatories as the fundamental law for the areas.

691:

was deliberately chosen to avoid specifying how much of Palestine or which part of Palestine was intended; see Ingrams,

3506:

That the French could not use the proposed League Of Nations Mandate System to break the terms of the Hussein Agreement

3195:

Mayor Husseini was removed from his post and replaced by Ragheb al-Nashashibi, a member of a powerful Jesurlaem family

1692:"The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish Nation home," 1148:

The Palestine Mandate granted to Great Britain at the 1920 San Remo Conference as the region of a Jewish National Home.

842: 745:

The title of the article was chosen to conform with all the other mandate articles, but anyway my source trumps yours:

3732: 2774:

The map is still wrong. it is Original by one of the participants here. we need a map from a real source. In any case

1440:

The French-British border was decided by France and Britain after very long negotiations. The starting point was the

989:

The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish National home.

865:

The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish National home.

713:

The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish National home.

123:

Of course it did and it is sourced. It altered the mandate it was supposed to receive by cutting Palestine into half.

2406:

I have in mind a pair of maps, one for pre-1921 and one for post-1921, that shows when each border was determined. --

1647:"The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish Nation home" 1437:

Finally to #3. The determination of borders was up to the Principal Powers (by both San Remo and Sevres decisions).

1230:

by Britain in 1921 and given to Emir Abdulla. Named Transjordan this terrotory was once closed to Jewish settlement"

4113: 3243: 3230:

in the riots? Khalidi just says he was replaced after the riots. (2) I'm not sure about the 20,000, where you put a

1426:

were finalised). As you say, the legal starting point was in 1923 (discussed at length elsewhere on this page). --

4646: 4405: 4355: 4262: 4232: 4185: 4005: 3659: 3588: 3554:

was declared the head of State. At the same time Prince Zeid, Faisal's brother, was declared Regent of Mesopotamia.

511:. To quote "The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust ... the administration of Palestine ... to a Mandatory, 362:, and subsequently, the British began exercising their mandate, through the power of a High Commissioner, in 1920. 38: 2878:

Gabi S., what's the problem exactly? I click on the link and get a map. What do yo mean by "link doesn't exist"?--

4751: 4725: 4529:

still applied in 1945, and led to Truman's demand for the immediate issuance of 100,000 immigration certificates.

3442:

Palestinian entity since the West Bank was controlled by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt... maybe we need articles like

2572:

was discovered a year or two later, just in time for the boundary drawing. See if I can find a reference on that.

4451:

concerning the relationship with Palestine it goes on and on and the eight changed article are not significant.

4396:

Palestine and the United Nations: Prelude to Solution, By Jacob Robinson, Public Affairs Press, 1947, page 203.

4000:. All of the remaining articles were applied by the British High Commissioner and the mandatory administration. 3540:

Britain, the Hashemites and Arab Rule, 1920-1925, by Timothy J. Paris, Routledge, 2003, ISBN 0714654515, Page 69

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There was, and is, a legal difference between an independent government and a sovereign state. see for example

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The British mobilised up to 20,000 Jews (policemen, field troops and night squads){{Fact|date=December 2007}}.

3078:

He means that both were rivals of the mufti. One rival from his own family, the other from the Nashashibis. --

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in January of 1919. Article II proposed a border commission operating with the consent of the state parties.

3267:(point 2) I don't know either. It is just it is an important number that should deserve a reference I think. 4578: 1636: 1494: 194: 190: 4756: 4642: 4401: 4351: 4258: 4228: 4181: 4001: 3655: 3584: 2623: 1913:(1) The Principal Allied and Associated Powers confer a mandate on one of their number or on a third power; 3142: 2215:

I realize this usually goes on User Talk pages but it is well-deserved here by a number of users. Bravo.

4641:

Under those circumstances I don't think that inclusion of "US Centric" material should be such big issue.

4506:. It entered into old-fashioned bilateral treaty agreements with each mandatory to secure its interests. 2564:

I'd really appreciate it if someone could pick one up for me as a present. This article by Daniel Pipes

4479: 3492: 3234:. The 'Revolt' text is mainly a copy from the 1948 War article, so if its wrong here its wrong there. -- 3119:

who had been appointed mayor of Jerusalem in 1920, replacing Musa Kazim following his involvment in the

3033:

or a blue or red defaced ensign) in 1933 but this never saw the light of day. Source fotw.net -Unsigned

1556: 1441: 661: 372: 3849:

The Boundaries of Modern Palestine, 1840-1947, Gideon Biger, Routledge, 2004, ISBN 0714656542, page 120

3727:

declared the independence of Arabia on June 27, 1916 shortly after Turkey attacked the Suez Canal. See

3272: 3184: 3155: 3072: 3068: 2915:"place," needs to be corrected. The Mandate was a SYSTEM of administration, not a geographical place.-- 1623:

The original Mandate for a Jewish National Home assigned to Britain at the San Remo Conference, 1920.

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is not being assimilated by the quite knowledgeable contributors to this discussion. Transjordan was

2177: 2042:

In any case what is more important is that that reminded me to take a look again at the text of the

508: 3138: 3056:

A young guy, Hadj Amin was appointed Mufti by the British to weaken his position (internal rivalry)

2670:

Thank you for this precise work! I read yesterday in the French version of E. Rogan and A. Shlaim,

2516: 181: 4539: 3268: 3180: 3151: 3064: 2775: 4428: 3549:

King's Complete History of the World War, William C. King, The History Associates, 1922, page 665

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by Charles Geddes. I don't have immediate access but could get a copy within a few days or so. --

2043: 1511: 850: 841:

The summary provided by Zero and John Z is consistent with the sources I use, the main one being

420: 400: 387: 377: 363: 359: 350: 346: 333: 291: 228: 2892:

The correct name of this article should be British Mandate FOR Palestine, not "of" Palestine. --

2728:

If I understand well he claims the name was changed between these elections and the annexion...

1533: 1350:(Resetting indent) So, it seems to me that we are in violent agreement on the following points: 1180:

conference. My estimation of your creditability is approaching zero and I think your time is up-

636:

owing to Britain’s compromise with France over Palestine’s northern frontier, and the effective

943:(2) Winston Churchill statements in the Illustrated Sunday Herald 8 Feb 1920 (approx 80 words), 859:

Again, you can do all the WP:OR you want. I quite enjoy it. However, Gilbert captions it as:

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for the US consular courts of the Ottoman Empire are published, and in the public domain. see

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On 30 September 1918 supporters of the Arab Revolt in Damascus had declared a government. see

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board" because during this short time, these parties did not actually have this position. :-)

4574: 2902:

An even more correct name would be "Mandate for Palestine", the word "British" is redundant.

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This is a great help John, thank you. I shall be adding these references to my collection. --

4689: 4668: 3625:

Answer: it did not have control over Palestine. This whole discussion is not relevant here.

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A History of the Great War, Bertram Benedict, Bureau of National Literature, 1919, page 679

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In the French version of Righteous Victims, p.116, Benny Morris writes (free translation):

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Those of the guy who assumes most important "cities" of that area were Gaza and Kuneitra ?

1600: 1591: 1569: 1550: 1514: 1501: 1487: 1476: 1459: 1449: 1430: 1418: 1398: 1368: 1332: 1322: 1287: 1259: 1234: 1200: 1184: 1164: 1107: 1100: 1093: 1067: 1052: 1029: 890: 875: 853: 835: 816: 796: 758: 740: 668: 621: 591: 547: 532: 498: 441: 427: 412: 403: 396: 390: 380: 366: 353: 336: 326: 312: 294: 283: 261: 250: 240: 231: 221: 169: 145: 136: 127: 118: 109: 98: 4032: 3780: 3724: 3599:

How is it relevant to the this article? Did this "state" have any control over Palestine?

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I am not sure to understand. If so, this is problematic. What does Khalidi mean exactly ?

2946: 1510:

Transjordan, was under the command Faisal's chief of staff General Ali Riza el-Riqqabi? --

940:(1) a communication from Emir Feisal to Felix Frankfurther 3 March 1919 (approx 80 words), 467:

In 1920 it was decided that there was going to be a Palestine Mandate. It was a decision

3729:

International Law Documents, Naval War College, 1918, Proclamation of the Sherif of Mecca

1874: 1857: 1822: 1738: 1684: 1671: 1129: 1015: 918: 3500:. The state of Hedjaz was not occupied or subjected to any League of Nations mandate. 3059:

He was replaced as Mayor of Jerusalem by another rival, a Nashashidi (external rivalry).

3008: 3735:, which was in-turn followed by the liberation of Baghdad, Jerusalem, and Damascus see 3387: 3371: 3360: 3146: 3019: 2942: 2938: 2916: 2893: 2071: 2047: 2025:, btw) in his Crossroads to Israel I mentioned before makes the following observations: 3532:

Jordan: Living in the Crossfire, Alan George, Zed Books, 2005, ISBN 1842774719, page 6

2778:

is an important source on the issue and on other such subjects such as rightofreturn.

1630:

The source for this language comes from all major POV's including the pro-Palestinian

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The French issued their ultimatum and the Battle of Maysalun took place in June 1920.

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was a separate mandate and should therefore be listed as the eastern boundary of the

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source: National Public Radio (NPR online) that captions the identical area as "The

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LAND OWNERSHIP SECTION SHOULD BE REMOVED-- Demographics by district is contradicted

4452: 4365: 4280: 4195: 4051: 3690: 3626: 3600: 3413: 3396:

The British had strategic interests in Arab support, because of their interests in

3379: 3130: 3003: 2955: 2903: 2561:. Sounds like it would come in handy in a physical argument. Since it is so cheap 2147: 1900:

1. Quoting the Council of the League of Nations, meeting of August 1920 (p109-110):

1878: 1836: 1826: 1825:

synthesis, I'm going to have to limit my replies to once every two or three days. -

1742: 1597: 1566: 1365: 1181: 1161: 1104: 1090: 1043:

was changed from a form that clearly refers to the whole area to a form that says "

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Will you all stop edit warring already and discuss things on the talk page! *sigh*

258: 142: 124: 106: 4629: 4625: 4503: 3772: 275:

Now the map that does not distinguish between Palestine proper and Transjordan is

3311:, unless we are defining boundaries for the first two years of the Mandate only. 1364:

The mandate took effect de facto after World War II and de jure in about 1923. --

1063:

it. The solution is to use better sources and make an effort to get it right. --

4717: 4664: 4555:

REPRESENTATIVE BLOOM declared that the Arabs had no right to take this position

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

4610:

But neither the Council nor the League was entitled to appear before the Court

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The Making of Jordan, Yoav Alon, I.B.Tauris, 2007, ISBN 1845111389 pages 20-22

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The only POV not represented are those unique to certain editors on this page.

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succession, it is important that the basic facts be included in the article.

3390:

were among the enthusiastic proponents of Zionism.{{Fact|date=November 2007}}

2176:

Geddes reappeared in the library. The San Remo text is identical to the one

1922:

3. Concerning the source of the law under which the mandates operated (p516):

1614:

I see no such comments below this map. The only text I see below the map is:

4547:

and pointed out that in Palestine the Arabs were in a substantial majority.

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Someone might find the following book helpful Palestine Boundaries 1833-1947

2515:

Syria and the disintegration of his authority in the rest of Arab Syria. As

2056: 1575:

Doright, do you think the comments below this "map" are in correlation with

1493:

Pretty much the same map is found on the pro-Palestinian PASSIA.org site at

519: 3510:'The Council of Four: minutes of meetings March 20 to May 24, 1919, page 1' 1555: 731:. The title of this article should be changed to reflect this simple fact. 4724:, which was concluded about four months before S-P. I also note that the 4581:. It had supplied Great Britain with substantial amounts of aid under the 2620:

Jew free. 36,000 Jews were expelled and their property confiscated. ....

1814:

Empires of the Sand, The Struggle for Mastery in the Middle East 1789-1923

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http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html

1495:

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html

1473: 1319: 1231: 1014:

I'm sorry you don't like it. However, there is simply no place here for

2969:"Mandate of Palestine" vs "Mandate for Palestine" vs "Palestine Mandate" 2924:

Are you sure this is not redundant ? The French mandate was in Syria...

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the evolution of the borders: of course, without "political" comments.

3563:

This decision read in part (file 763.72119/9869, document I.C.P. 106):

3420:

Please don't restore these or similar statements without a citation.--

3281:

I added Morris pov (I assume the referece is to righteous victims). --

3405: 2442:

evolved during negotiations among many of the involved parties. See:

3654:

Transjordan was administered under the British Mandate from day one.

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2. Summarising the effect of the League Council's ruling (p110-111):

1845:

As a first step, what do you think about adding Metula on the map ?

1634:

Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs

1001:

Area allocated for a Jewish National home, San Remo Conference 1920.

900:, Resorting to personal insults is often a sign of a weak argument. 3226:

Ceedjee: (1) Are you sure Tom Segev days Musa Kazim al-Husayni was

2234:

Knowledge (XXG):Requests for mediation/British Mandate of Palestine

2118:

Missing from the library shelf. Ian, please get it if you can. --

1664:"Area Allocated for Jewish National Home San Remo Conference" 1920. 719:

Also, "according to your logic there was "never such an entity as"

3397: 2018: 1994:

previous to the application of the mandates." (League of Nations,

1896:, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1930. Here are some relevant extracts. 1865: 746: 3092:

Ok. In that case, I think there is a (little) problem with this:

3401: 4557:

according to the mandate and the treaty with the United States.

3785:

Inter-American Reciprocal Assistance and Solidarity Act of 1945

1536:

and is an attempt to preempt the discussion on this talk page.

3249:

Hello, (point 1) To be very precise, Tom Segev, p.139 writes:

2606:, vol. 1, 1981, pp284-313 (translated from the Hebrew journal 1937:

so both mandates were declared to be in force immediately. --

1911:

Thus three steps were necessary to put the system into effect:

25: 3097:

The British also tried to create divisions among these elites

709:

Really? Contrary to your false claim, Gilbert captions it as

419:. I'm willing to accept the compromise of two maps with ease 141:

It altered the map designated for the mandate, read article.

2502:

The Mandate was not partitioned: Transjordan was added to it

2459:

could help. It is 25 years later but it is quite "precise".

3583:

The French asked Faisal to leave Damascus in August 1920.

4148:

The Memo from Lord Curzon to the American Charge' Wheeler

3412:, and especially to guarantee the friendship of oil-rich 2850:

to the main map that shows the final official boundary.--

946:(3) The Balfour Declaration 2 Nov 1917 (approx 70 words): 299:

Yes, it was later excluded. By 'later' I mean during the

236:

Very insightful, John Z, thanks, I'll look all this up.--

2995:

Here are some examples of British Mandate FOR Palestine:

489:

of the mandate government which is clearly labeled the "

349:? That would be the difference between 1920 and 1923. 2526:

Israel and Palestine: Why They Fight and Can They Stop?

2155:

That's right but a published source would be better. --

2142:

Unless I'm mistaken, there are links to the text here:

1877:

and can not be used in this or any other WP article. -

503:

I'll add: for an even better proof that the statement "

3197:

involved in a long and bitter feud with the Husseinis.

2972:"British Mandate" (of or for) vs "Mandate" (of or for) 2788:

The map in the article is the best map we have today.

1762:

The Origins and Evolution of the Arab-Zionist Conflict

634:“Though they failed to achieve their territorial goals 3193:

Khalidi doesn't mention this fact you mention below:

2353:

and that it changed its name in Hashemite Kingdom of

132:

Which article of the Mandate did the British alter?--

4688:

articles that use it) was from a political pamphlet

2797:

Zeq, what's wrong with it? How can it be improved?--

2369:

To Kaisershatner: two objections to your reasoning.

1982:

Two official statements from the League of Nations:

1527:IP SockPuppet has requested this image be deleted. 4415:Opening Paragraph of the League of Nations Mandate 4255:Nationality and Statelessness in International Law 3773:International Status of South West Africa, page 11 3164:nb: I am not good at English but I thought it was 2097:A Documentary History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict 1760:Michael J. Cohen, Prof. at Bar-Ilan University in 1470:Talk:British_Mandate_of_Palestine#Problem_with_map 3777:First International Conference of American States 3450:. I am not sure but suggestions would be great. 1523:IP SockPuppet has requested this image be deleted 640:of Transjordan from Palestine that followed … .” 4553:agreed that this was the correct interpretation. 3847:works about the geography of the Holy Land. see 3779:in 1890, and incorporated in President Wilson's 2310:There are both factual and presentation issues. 341:Did the Mandate become a legal entity under the 1816:, Harvard University Press, 1999, pp.257-258... 1793:within such boundaries as may be fixed by them. 1741:sources that reject this map and its caption. - 1532:This nomination for deletion is a violation of 905:] Or, do you have a different insult for them? 423:, it seems like a good idea, thanks for that. 4095:privileges would be immediately reestablished. 1873:No source is identified. It is therefore not 1483:confirmed at the Cairo conference in 1921. -- 1132:. And, after all, we are talking about maps. 847:The Boundaries of Modern Palestine, 1840-1947 8: 4626:South West Africa (Ethiopia v. South Africa) 2542:I agree with you Ian, 110% except for the ' 358:Neither. It became a legal entity under the 4692:quote in the 69 volumes of Arthur S. Link, 4630:South West Africa (Liberia v. South Africa) 3129:Concerning the reasons of the appointment, 2109:Lovely. I'll get it tomorrow or Monday. -- 522:later the same year. So, no, Great Britain 4031:consultation and the participation of the 2822:Zero gives far more details here above... 751:Palestine Mandate official published title 217:Anyways, hope this farrago helps someone. 3483:The Arab Government of Syria and Palesine 3037:Rivalry (and generaly Khalidi's analysis) 2198: 2095:Zero, I believe you can find the text in 4150:which is also in the public domain; and 1579:on the matter ? Or do they only reflect 165:the long story to the History section?-- 4038:FRUS, 1917, supplement 2, WWI, page 491 1951:, Vol VI, p505-506; League of Nations, 1409:to give away as much as possible while 94:Amoruso, please justify your changes.-- 4711:OR problems in the World War I section 3355:At the same time, British interest in 3340:I removed unsourced staments with old 3221: 3053:Qazzem was a famous nationalist leader 2444:link to appropriate section in article 1957:Mandates, Dependencies and Trusteeship 1955:(official publication of 1945); Hill, 1785:And I would add this primary source : 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3745:TEXT OF THE FAISAL-WEIZMANN AGREEMENT 2380:map as seen from the Arab perspective 1949:History of the Paris Peace Conference 306:Image:BritishMandatePalestine1920.jpg 7: 2000:and what could be clearer than that? 1894:Mandates under the League of Nations 4508:The US Palestine Mandate Convention 3444:Jordanian control of the West Bank 721:The British Mandate for Palestine 509:the text of the Sanremo resolution 411:perhaps they actually believe it ( 24: 4447:signed a specific agreement with 4114:Mavrommatis Palestine Concessions 3400:and control of oil production in 2357:in 1949. Could someone confirm ? 1226:of the jordan river: "Separated 513:to be selected by the said Powers 3936:demarcation. It stipulated that: 3370:Eminent British figures such as 3009:Palestine Facts Mandate Overview 2719:by Beverley Milton-Edwards, p.14 2199: 1856:Map created by User:Zero0000 is 1653:the Israeli government source 29: 2712:I found this in google books : 1558:File:Palestine Mandate 1920.gif 507:" is incorrect, I refer you to 4722:Hussein-McMahon Correspondence 4504:Permanent Court of Arbitration 3382:, 19th century Prime Minister 3177:Ilan Pappé's pov on the matter 1678:Mandate granted to Britain." 1583:points of views or maybe only 1196:, Vol. 11, No. 2, 100-112. -- 1140:lie about this particular map? 871:I'm sorry you don't like it. - 557:Mesopotamie, et la Palestine." 469:about what was going to happen 1: 4720:'.... and then discusses the 4706:13:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC) 4651:15:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC) 4522:expressed its dissatisfaction 3291:12:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC) 3277:14:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 3244:13:05, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 3210:12:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC) 3189:10:58, 25 December 2007 (UTC) 3160:14:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 3088:13:05, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 3073:10:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 2642:Official name of Trans-Jordan 984:Again, Gilbert's caption is: 4694:The Papers of Woodrow Wilson 4624:the mandated territory. see 4520:For example, in 1925 the US 4461:21:22, 9 February 2009 (UTC) 4433:09:13, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4419:The text quoted is actually 4410:22:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC) 4374:18:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC) 4360:03:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC) 4289:18:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4267:17:02, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4237:02:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC) 4204:23:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4190:23:17, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4155:Published by Praeger, 1986, 4060:18:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4010:05:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC) 3876:never occupied Transjordan. 3699:18:44, 27 January 2009 (UTC) 3664:03:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC) 3635:18:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 3609:12:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC) 3593:13:36, 24 January 2009 (UTC) 3367:.{{Fact|date=November 2007}} 3335:14:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 3309:British Mandate in Palestine 2636:14:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC) 2052:, which has an attached map 1194:Journal of Palestine Studies 3733:Balfour Declaration of 1917 3478:18:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC) 3416:.{{Fact|date=October 2007}} 3023:14:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC) 2981:08:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC) 2962:21:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC) 2950:11:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC) 2929:06:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC) 2920:06:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC) 2910:22:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC) 2717:Jordan - A Hashemite Legacy 2228:Request for mediation filed 211:National Government of Moab 4785: 4739:12:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 3783:. see the preamble of the 3028:The British Mandates' Flag 2588:Palestine Papers 1917-1922 1887:When does a mandate begin? 1103:with respect to the map. - 1060:ending at the Jordan River 478:Palestine Order in Council 262:13:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 251:12:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 241:12:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 232:11:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 222:11:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 170:00:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC) 137:13:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 128:13:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 119:06:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 110:23:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC) 99:16:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC) 4752:Demographics of Jerusalem 4726:Balfour Declaration, 1917 4673:17:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 3965:text of the Aide-Me'moire 3741:Faisal–Weizmann Agreement 3620:The New York Times Report 3222:'20,000' & 'involved' 3036: 2897:13:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 2864:14:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 2532:Could that be clearer? -- 2205: 1973:, Jul-Aug 1921, p443). -- 4769:22:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC) 4388:International Law Issues 3458:05:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC) 3448:Egyptian control of Gaza 3117:Raghib Bey al-Nashashibi 2883:11:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC) 2855:22:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC) 2840:09:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC) 2831:08:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC) 2816:07:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC) 2802:20:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC) 2793:18:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC) 2783:12:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC) 2762:13:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC) 2733:20:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 2703:20:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 2694:14:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 2684:12:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 2665:05:29, 13 May 2007 (UTC) 2655:04:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC) 2615:14:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC) 2595:09:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC) 2577:07:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC) 2552:07:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC) 2537:17:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2486:07:06, 12 May 2007 (UTC) 2473:09:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC) 2464:16:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2451:15:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2437:11:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2422:10:42, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2411:10:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2402:10:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2387:10:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 1850:10:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 18:Talk:Mandatory Palestine 4579:Alaska boundary dispute 3521:A/364, 3 September 1947 3432:16:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC) 3363:" and planning for the 2362:15:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 2339:14:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 2328:11:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 2303:09:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 2278:09:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 2267:18:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC) 2257:15:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC) 2242:12:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC) 2220:13:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 2185:13:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 2160:19:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 2151:13:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 2134:13:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 2123:07:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 2114:11:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 2104:11:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 2090:10:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 2079:09:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 2007:08:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 1978:08:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 1964:08:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 1942:04:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 1882:06:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC) 1840:23:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 1830:23:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1782:21:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1746:20:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1610:19:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1601:16:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1592:12:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1570:02:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1515:18:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1502:14:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1488:09:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1477:13:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1460:12:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1450:12:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1431:10:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1419:10:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1399:10:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1369:12:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1333:07:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1323:07:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1288:07:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1260:07:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1235:06:23, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1201:07:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1185:05:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1165:03:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1108:21:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1094:01:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1068:01:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1053:00:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1030:21:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 891:03:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 876:23:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 854:11:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 836:11:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 817:12:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 797:12:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 759:09:03, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 741:22:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 669:09:18, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 652:06:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 622:08:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC) 592:19:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 548:17:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 533:16:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 499:16:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 442:10:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC) 428:16:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 404:15:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 391:15:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 381:15:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 371:Ok. (According to the 367:14:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 354:14:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 337:14:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 327:09:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 313:09:00, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 295:01:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 284:21:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC) 195:British Mandate of Iraq 191:Cairo Conference (1921) 146:10:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC) 4614: 4560: 4478:The US sent their own 3569: 3524: 3386:and Foreign Secretary 2604:The Jerusalem Cathedra 2530: 2393:the area of Palestine 2033: 1998:, Oct 1923, p1217) -- 1927: 1919: 1905: 1870: 1764:, 1987, p.64 writes : 1695: 1667: 1650: 1627: 1562: 1547: 1539:The IP editor states: 1386: 1385: 1154: 1005: 993: 960: 869: 752: 654: 613:of Palestine, or even 4606: 4544: 4480:King-Crane Commission 3565: 3517: 3493:Sykes-Picot Agreement 2888:Mandate FOR Palestine 2521: 2209:The Original Barnstar 2074:the Treaty of Roma. 2028: 1923: 1909: 1901: 1869: 1689: 1661: 1644: 1619: 1561: 1541: 1442:Sykes-Picot Agreement 1380: 1379: 1144: 997: 985: 951: 861: 750: 728:Mandate for Palestine 687:Palestine. The word 662:Sykes-Picot Agreement 630: 395:You two both need to 42:of past discussions. 4279:How is it relevant? 3998:the mandate and memo 2748:impression, 1960.) 2262:this disagreement? 2252:issues in dispute? 4571:Grady Morrison Plan 4540:U.S. Rep. Sol Bloom 4438:US Centric material 3845:George Adam Smith's 3139:Bernard Wasserstein 3027: 2544:was not partitioned 2517:Bernard Wasserstein 2508:was not partitioned 2481:What do you think? 2247:Mediation: clarify? 1953:The Mandates System 1812:… .” Efraim Karsh, 1802:and this comment : 1376:1840-1947", we read 725:]. It is just The 699:10:19, 4 May 2007 182:San Remo conference 4575:The Alabama Claims 2770:The map and source 2144:Sanremo_conference 2044:Treaty of Lausanne 1871: 1577:all points of view 1563: 753: 527: 421:User:Kaisershatner 373:Sanremo Conference 360:Sanremo conference 347:Treaty of Lausanne 4759:comment added by 4731:CasualObserver'48 4527:treaty obligation 3787:for more details. 3378:, Prime Minister 3004:Mtholyoke Britman 2638: 2626:comment added by 2225: 2224: 2015:Christopher Sykes 1596:Which comments? - 831:Gilbert's map. -- 516: 397:assume good faith 87: 86: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4776: 4771: 4586:do those things. 4444:not about the US 3437:Successor states 3429: 3425: 3349: 3343: 3331: 3328: 3325: 3322: 3319: 3316: 2621: 2528:, pp. 105-106.) 2203: 2196: 2195: 1996:Official Journal 1990:, Nov 23, p1355) 1988:Official Journal 1971:Official Journal 1559: 1314:NPOV: There are 693:Palestine Papers 607:Palestine Papers 482:this 1922 report 474:this 1921 report 343:Treaty of Sevres 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4784: 4783: 4779: 4778: 4777: 4775: 4774: 4773: 4754: 4746: 4713: 4685: 4440: 4417: 4390: 4123:, page Page 34. 4077:interpretation. 4033:Sharif of Mecca 3781:Fourteen Points 3725:Sharif of Mecca 3498:Sharif of Mecca 3485: 3465: 3439: 3427: 3423: 3384:Lord Palmerston 3376:King Edward VII 3352: 3347: 3341: 3329: 3326: 3323: 3320: 3317: 3314: 3301: 3232:citation needed 3224: 3172:(I don't know). 3137:, referring to 3121:Nabi Musa riots 3039: 3030: 2890: 2876: 2772: 2644: 2504: 2249: 2230: 1889: 1864: 1557: 1525: 1228:from palestine 683:Palestine, not 487:the 1923 report 270: 177: 162: 92: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4782: 4780: 4745: 4742: 4712: 4709: 4698:128.139.104.49 4684: 4683:Wilson protest 4681: 4680: 4679: 4678: 4677: 4676: 4675: 4656: 4655: 4654: 4653: 4636: 4635: 4634: 4633: 4618: 4617: 4616: 4615: 4600: 4599: 4598: 4597: 4590: 4589: 4588: 4587: 4564: 4563: 4562: 4561: 4533: 4532: 4531: 4530: 4515: 4514: 4513: 4512: 4496: 4495: 4494: 4493: 4486: 4485: 4484: 4483: 4473: 4472: 4471: 4470: 4442:The article is 4439: 4436: 4416: 4413: 4389: 4386: 4385: 4384: 4383: 4382: 4381: 4380: 4379: 4378: 4377: 4376: 4332: 4331: 4330: 4329: 4328: 4327: 4326: 4325: 4314: 4313: 4312: 4311: 4310: 4309: 4308: 4307: 4296: 4295: 4294: 4293: 4292: 4291: 4272: 4271: 4270: 4269: 4248: 4247: 4246: 4245: 4244: 4243: 4242: 4241: 4240: 4239: 4215: 4214: 4213: 4212: 4211: 4210: 4209: 4208: 4207: 4206: 4170: 4169: 4168: 4167: 4166: 4165: 4164: 4163: 4131: 4130: 4129: 4128: 4127: 4126: 4125: 4124: 4103: 4102: 4101: 4100: 4099: 4098: 4097: 4096: 4085: 4084: 4083: 4082: 4081: 4080: 4079: 4078: 4067: 4066: 4065: 4064: 4063: 4062: 4043: 4042: 4041: 4040: 4025: 4024: 4023: 4022: 4021: 4020: 4019: 4018: 4017: 4016: 4015: 4014: 4013: 4012: 3980: 3979: 3978: 3977: 3976: 3975: 3974: 3973: 3972: 3971: 3970: 3969: 3968: 3967: 3948: 3947: 3946: 3945: 3944: 3943: 3942: 3941: 3940: 3939: 3938: 3937: 3922: 3921: 3920: 3919: 3918: 3917: 3916: 3915: 3914: 3913: 3912: 3911: 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3035: 3029: 3026: 3015: 3014: 3011: 3006: 3001: 2997: 2996: 2993: 2992: 2991: 2990: 2989: 2988: 2987: 2986: 2985: 2984: 2983: 2975: 2974: 2973: 2970: 2943:British Ceylon 2939:British Malaya 2889: 2886: 2875: 2872: 2871: 2870: 2869: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2844: 2843: 2842: 2820: 2819: 2818: 2807:it (it was an 2795: 2771: 2768: 2767: 2766: 2765: 2764: 2750: 2749: 2744:On wikipedia, 2743: 2742: 2736: 2735: 2726: 2725: 2720: 2710: 2709: 2708: 2707: 2706: 2705: 2674:that the name 2672:Palestine 1948 2643: 2640: 2628:89.240.226.205 2600: 2599: 2598: 2597: 2580: 2579: 2555: 2554: 2503: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2497: 2496: 2495: 2494: 2493: 2492: 2491: 2490: 2489: 2488: 2479: 2390: 2389: 2375: 2367: 2366: 2365: 2364: 2347: 2344: 2321: 2320: 2316: 2308: 2307: 2306: 2305: 2295: 2294: 2293: 2290: 2281: 2280: 2248: 2245: 2229: 2226: 2223: 2222: 2212: 2211: 2206: 2204: 2194: 2193: 2192: 2191: 2190: 2189: 2188: 2187: 2167: 2166: 2165: 2164: 2163: 2162: 2137: 2136: 2127: 2126: 2125: 2093: 2092: 2082: 2081: 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