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1721:. I concur with SnowFire. It's a substantial, clear majority. It takes time for history to become history, and it's clear where history has settled. The past several decades of ngrams is not what I would call "recentism". Also, it's pure speculation to presume that Knowledge (XXG) materially caused the practice of thousands of sources on history and politics to change. Even supposing it were so, it would not follow that such practice is to be discounted, as though it were a hoax or a wrong to be righted.
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1852:. The wording of MOS:CAPS sets quite a high threshold for capitalisation on WP. When considering ngram evidence, it does not distinguish usage in prose from usage in titles, captions and citations where title case is usually used. Consequently, an allowance needs to be made for such uses when considering ngram evidence. Typically, in many other RM other discussions, this has been 10%. While the other titles might be
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that the capitalized form is around 4x as popular as the uncapitalized form. I know that there is a school of thought which considers "mixed" use as practically anything short of 100%, but I think this clearly falls within the threshold for there being a clear majority form in the sources that
1356:. Not really that controversial... The Capitalised version does somewhat exceed the sentence case version on books, but not sufficiently to override our bar of being "consistently capitalised in a substantial majority" of sudh sources. Sentence case is better here. —
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is also around 4x as popular capitalized. I have no opinion on
Amethyst Incident - I would personally be inclined to let sleeping dogs lie and leave it as is, but that is a case of a more genuine mixed usage where the capitalized form has only a slight edge
1844:, and we don't do that. However, we might cap such a term (per MOS:CAPS) if it is consistently done in sources. When otherwise descriptive terms are consistently capped in sources and near universally treated as if they were proper nouns, we see ngrams like
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Your estimates are severely recentism biased, and ignore the long history before WP started to use the over-capitalized titles, which very likely influenced the trend since then. It's hard to interpret these data as supporting "consistently capitalized".
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not lowercased? plenty of sources do not capitalise "manual of style". if by the logic that titles are capitalised only if there are reliable references, then there is no overwhelming amount of references for capitalised "Knowledge (XXG):Manual_of_Style"
1562:"...as evidenced by consistent capitalization in sources...", we should not treat these as proper names and cap them, since they are not consistently capped in sources; nothing like the Battle of the Bulge; thanks for bringing up that contrasting case.
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a level of capitalisation by which we might capitalise them here (per SnowFire), I would agree with
Amakuru, that they do not reach the required threshold, particularly when allowing for the use of title case results in the ngram data. See also
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many of these events being requested to move have the word "incident" or a similar word as part of their full names. the event is not "Marco Polo Bridge"/"Mukden" (the locations are). Amethyst is not the name of the event but of the ship
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The 'Consequences' header has an entire bit about a muslim general which has nothing to do with consequences. I removed it, but RandomCanadian put it back in 'Consequences', without giving any arguments why it belongs in 'Consequences'.
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is clearly not a starter for capping per ngram evuidence though others would argue the ngram evidence regarding the other two. None of these terms are intrinsically proper nouns because they are descriptive of a
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I added the info to the picture caption. MP Bridge is on the right of the photo. The bridge on the left (actually north of MP Bridge) is a railway bridge of what was then called the
Pinghan railway line.
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issue of someone capitalizing stuff because they want to signify "importance". If sources don't treat this consistently as a proper name then WP is not in a position to declare it one.
1485:"Marco Polo Bridge Incident" can also be known as the "Battle of Marco Polo Bridge". do you not capitalise Battle? all the Battle of the Bulge, Battle of Vienna, Battle of Iwo Jima...
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do you always start sentences with the phrases? "soldiers fighting in the Battle of the Bulge" or "soldiers fighting in the battle of the Bulge"? what logic do you have?
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they become meaningless if the word "incident" is omitted, like you dont just say "korean" but "korean war", not just "Suez Canal" but "Suez Canal Crisis"...
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1579:"Mukden Incident", "Amethyst Incident", "Marco Polo Bridge Incident", "Battle of Marco Polo Bridge", "Battle of the Bulge", etc. are all proper nouns.
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well, for one, because it's a document that was named by its authors, not a historical event that was named afterwards.
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it's illogical and bad practice when some phrases follow one rule but other similar phrases follow a different rule.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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does it make sense if a word should be capitalised just because it's in front but not at the end of a phrase?
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there're basically no exceptions to the english orthographic rule that proper nouns are capitalised.
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it's different from, for example, Watergate, which has become the name of the event by itself
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1462:"Marco Polo Bridge Incident" is the proper name for that event and hence a proper noun.
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the only exception i think is if the incident is named after a date, like 911, 516 (
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Per MOS:CAPS, consensus is that these do not meet the threshold for capitalisation.
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The "aerial photo of the Marco Polo Bridge" shows two bridges. Which one is it?
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whether a phrase is a proper noun doesnt depend on "sources". it's grammatical.
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that happened at a particular place. Capitalising such a name would fall to
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if being a proper noun depends on "sources", then i have a question, why is
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http://www.chinaislam.net.cn/cms/whyj/mmxm/zmrs/201412/14-7574.html
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Ya, I didn't think it was controversial when I proposed it at
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A fact from this article was featured on
Knowledge (XXG)'s
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https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22manual+of+style%22
1553:. This is what a proper name looks like in sources (: -->
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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On 31 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be
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proper nouns in english are capitalised as stated in
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This article has been checked against the following
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1735:Addendum – I
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1184:Retinalsummer
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1168:104.153.40.58
1162:Which bridge?
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1126:
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726:criterion met
718:
715:criterion met
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704:criterion met
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693:criterion met
685:
674:
673:
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542:into English.
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1911:
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1755:
1741:Adumbrativus
1736:
1723:Adumbrativus
1718:
1670:
1666:
1633:
1551:n-gram stats
1506:
1446:
1353:
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1284:
1238:
1237:
1225:
1223:
1211:
1204:
1165:
1148:95.96.74.157
1142:— Preceding
1138:
1135:Consequences
1116:
1113:
1088:source check
1067:
1061:
1058:
1021:
1018:
999:
956:
937:
875:
661:
613:
594:World War II
545:
533:
524:
523:Create some
515:
507:
499:
491:
486:Vinland Saga
485:
478:
465:
458:
451:
450:
442:
428:
420:
348:
310:
290:project page
278:
272:
266:Japan portal
201:
161:
155:China portal
105:WikiProjects
73:July 7, 2010
69:July 7, 2009
65:July 7, 2008
61:July 7, 2007
57:July 7, 2006
53:July 7, 2005
49:July 7, 2004
42:
1854:approaching
1842:MOS:SIGCAPS
1829:MOS:MILHIST
1825:MOS:SIGCAPS
1794:SMcCandlish
1787:MOS:SIGCAPS
1783:MOS:MILHIST
1560:MOS:MILHIST
1414:May 16 coup
1217:move review
1005:ClueBot III
702:Structure:
488:(TV series)
422:Peer review
286:participate
47:section on
44:On this day
1947:Categories
1928:Grassynoel
1895:Grassynoel
1612:all other
1315:per nom.--
1240:Polyamorph
1125:Report bug
296:, and see
1817:WP:NCCAPS
1399:involved.
1108:this tool
1101:this tool
972:Archive 1
883:East Asia
846:East Asia
535:translate
39:Main Page
1926:Thanks!
1912:Remsense
1848:for the
1838:incident
1821:MOS:CAPS
1779:MOS:CAPS
1704:Dicklyon
1689:SnowFire
1634:Remsense
1564:Dicklyon
1556:MOS:CAPS
1547:MOS:CAPS
1515:Dicklyon
1447:Remsense
1439:MILTERMS
1376:Dicklyon
1338:Remsense
1332:per nom.
1317:Ortizesp
1299:Dicklyon
1287:MOS:CAPS
1144:unsigned
1114:Cheers.—
957:Archives
663:criteria
590:Japanese
460:Pictures
453:Articles
1813:Support
1775:Support
1756:Support
1507:logical
1372:WP:RMTR
1358:Amakuru
1354:Support
1330:Support
1313:Support
1028:my edit
1000:90 days
877:defunct
851:defunct
586:Chinese
470:: None
463:: None
456:: None
396:history
351:on the
315:Refresh
204:on the
95:C-class
41:in the
1766:(talk)
1667:Oppose
1226:moved.
547:Assess
433:: None
425:: None
101:scale.
71:, and
1781:(and
1505:It's
965:Index
938:moved
924:from
922:moved
582:Asian
532:Help
467:Lists
406:purge
401:watch
324:Japan
306:Reiwa
280:Japan
229:Japan
177:China
168:China
124:China
1932:talk
1899:talk
1871:talk
1863:here
1861:and
1859:here
1846:this
1827:and
1815:per
1777:per
1761:Tony
1745:talk
1727:talk
1708:talk
1693:talk
1687:).
1685:link
1669:for
1622:talk
1618:RZuo
1592:talk
1588:RZuo
1568:talk
1533:talk
1529:RZuo
1519:talk
1497:talk
1493:RZuo
1474:talk
1470:RZuo
1435:RZuo
1426:talk
1422:RZuo
1420:...
1418:8964
1380:talk
1362:talk
1321:talk
1303:talk
1246:talk
1188:talk
1172:talk
1152:talk
936:was
498:Add
391:edit
1803:😼
1416:),
1082:RfC
1052:to
1042:to
928:to
343:Mid
308:6)
302:JST
196:Mid
1949::
1934:)
1901:)
1893:?
1873:)
1865:,
1831:.
1823:,
1819:,
1791:—
1747:)
1739:.
1729:)
1710:)
1695:)
1624:)
1594:)
1586:.
1570:)
1535:)
1521:)
1499:)
1476:)
1443:—
1428:)
1382:)
1364:)
1334:—
1323:)
1305:)
1278:→
1269:→
1260:→
1209:.
1190:)
1174:)
1154:)
1095:.
1090:}}
1086:{{
752:/
592:/
588:/
584:/
580::
490:,
483::
445:–
304:,
232::
67:,
63:,
59:,
55:,
51:,
1930:(
1918:诉
1897:(
1869:(
1801:¢
1798:☏
1743:(
1725:(
1706:(
1691:(
1683:(
1640:聊
1620:(
1609:.
1590:(
1566:(
1531:(
1517:(
1495:(
1472:(
1453:聊
1424:(
1406:.
1378:(
1360:(
1344:聊
1319:(
1301:(
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1244:(
1234:)
1230:(
1186:(
1170:(
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1127:)
1123:(
1110:.
1103:.
940:.
880:.
853:)
849:(
626:.
529:.
373:.
355:.
319:)
311:(
208:.
107::
75:.
20:)
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