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969:"Another indication of the dominance of Turkish during this period is that out of 155 anecdotal tales in Cepenkov's (1972) nineteenth-century Macedonian collection from the Prilep region in addition to these 34 tales with interlingual code switching, there are 11 tales with dialectal code switches, given that the frame is Prilep Macedonian."
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But we *are* discussing differences in nomenclature over time. My suggestion is that we do away with the wordy part about the language. This is a biographical article and shouldn't include all of the finer points of a language's history. We state the fact ("Cepenkov wrote in the Prilep-Bitola dialect
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was
Macedonian and you asked me for a source. I provided you with seven. The Prilep-Bitola dialect did not go from being Bulgarian to Macedonian; only the name for it did. Cepenkov's use of the term "Bulgarian" only confirms this. This article is being written in the 21 century, not in Cepenkov's own
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In his own time, his language was described differently by different people. Some called it "Bulgarian", others "Macedonian" and even "South/Old
Serbian". The politics of the Bulgarian government are of no importance in this article. The Prilep-Bitola dialect is universally classified as a Macedonian
1760:
now you tell me jingby, how is this not an improvement? are you that stubborn that you don't even wanna label his ethnicity correctly? or do you love removing every single reference to macedonia in the wiki? you are either acting like an idiot on purpose or you just wanna wipe any usage of the word
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Scientific nomenclature can be a bitch when it doesn't fit our POVs. A certain dialect does not become something else after its classification is revised. He wrote in
Macedonian, but named it something else in accordance with his personal and contemporary views. We do not say the Earth was flat, but
1123:
I asked you for a ref that
Cepenkov wrote in Macedonian. Cepenkov's views matter about the article on him. Why would we need an article on him if we were to disregard him altogether? Or do we only need things that sit us? He was well aware what he was writing and on what language. Plus, what is the
1344:
Ahh, so this is what you were after. Why didn't you start with it? No wonder you want to remove his own view. But explain to us why his view, I remind you this is the article on him, is irrelevant in this case? Why a footnote? Why not simply state what it was and what is? But there's no way you'd
417:
What is your problem with the language that is used in his works? That is pure
Macedonian. Your argument that there was not Macedonian at his time is not relevant and reliable since the language existed no matter what in BG thought and no matter the codification. I am bringing back that statement
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The fourth source states, "If they are
Bulgarians, fine—we will understand each other; but if they are Turks or Vlachs, how will we understand each other?". It does not support the statement that he considered his dialect a Bulgarian one, only that Bulgarians would understand him. The fifth is a
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None but the very last source mentions
Cepenkov. And even if we take this as sole evidence, we still have a problem with changing the text, since it only states what it was and is now. It was once defined as Bulgarian, and defined as such by the author himself, and is now defined as
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If you take a look, I am not trying to change his ethnicity, I do not care about it. But the problem is in you guys, you do not want to accept the fact that his works are in
Macedonian. That should not be neglected and the politics should not be mixed up with this statements.
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story about a
Bulgarian-speaker and Turkish-speaker not understanding each other. It does not support the statement that he considered his dialect a Bulgarian one, only that the two men in the story could not communicate in the same language. --
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He described himself and the Slavic poulation in
Macedonia as Bulgarians. He described their language also as Bulgarian. The scientists of his time made the same. I undestand your point of view to change his identity postfactum, but I disagree.
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Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. For example, a review article, monograph, or textbook is better than a primary research paper. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised:
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Irrelevant again. We are not discussing the evolution of a language. Do you have any actual serious suggestions? Cause we already told you that both things are already in the article. What else do you want?
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since you do not need political act to recognize language. Have you seen such stupid thing? Look at his works, and if you know a bit inguistics you will understand my point. Do not revert obvious things. --
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Perhaps someone should provide an excerpt from the third source. The fourth and fifth sources do not back the statement as Cepenkov was not referring to the language of his texts (not even implicitly).
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time. And Cepenkov is not a linguist and even if he were, his views would be at odds with the rest of the world. No, this article is about Marko Cepenkov. There are other articles for that: ex.
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In fact, in his own Autobiography he states, "I had already learned Bulgarian", "of the little Bulgarian I knew", "now I can sing in Bulgarian passably", "now I know Bulgarian somewhat". --
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hence when he was Macedonian Bulgarian, it is clear he originated from the region of Macedonia. Also, yow can see at the bottom of the article, its subject is included in the category:
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Tags for biased article and original research were added without to be given any explanation. These tags were removed by me for now, while no discussion was held here to justify them.
959:"I shall take Standard Macedonian, which in this regard faithfully reflects its West Central dialectal base (Prilep-Veles-Kicevo-Brod), as exemplary of Balkan Slavic for this chapter."
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944:"As indicated in footnote 2, the Thracian Bulgarian dialects border on the easternmost Macedonian dialects of northern This is still the case in Prilep-Veles, and evidence "
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His works are in the Prilep dialect which he himself described as Bulgarian, and which since 1945 is considered to be a dialect of Macedonian. Anyone unhappy with that?
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He wrote in the Prilep-Bitola dialect of the Macedonian language. He identified as Bulgarian. It's fairly clear-cut. So why try and state that from a particular POV? --
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Sanford B. Steever, Carol A. Walker, Salikoko S. Mufwene. Papers from the Parasession on Diachronic Syntax, April 22, 1976 (Chicago Linguistic Society, 1976), p. 100
939:"This was actually a conservative change: it restored the historical intervocalic -v- which has been lost in many Macedonian dialects, including that of Prilep "
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673:"Now his dialect is still considered Bulgarian dialect in Bulgaria. Today, his dialect is classified as the Prilep-Bitola dialect of the Macedonian language."
954:"The Macedonian literary language is based on the central dialects (Bitola - Veles - Prilep), but it has also liberally adopted forms from other dialects."
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Well, I suggest these 2 sentences to be just removed, as it is irrelevant how it is called today, and thus to remove the contradiction this way of course:
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1401:. What I don't like is that this article uses three sentences to make that point. And you're wrong: the language didn't change, its name did. --
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Where did I say it had changed? That way or the other, I would argue it did. Every language changes in what is a completely natural process. --
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since YYYY it has become a spheroid. We also don't mention this historical tidbit every time the shape of the Earth is discussed, because
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This discussion isn't getting anywhere and you're being very discourteous, so I'm going to distance myself from this article and make a
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described as "Bulgarian". Let me put this in perspective for you: what would your argument be had he called his language "Chinese"? --
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And what is the academic consensus about the language that Mr Cepenkov himself spoke. Is there a text on that topic particularly? --
322:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
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See: "Developing cultural identity in the Balkans: convergence vs divergence", Raymond Detrez, Pieter Plas, Peter Lang, 2005,
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Raymond Detrez, Pieter Plas. Developing Cultural Identity in the Balkans: Convergence Vs Divergence (Peter Lang, 2005), p. 27
726:". — "Developing cultural identity in the Balkans: convergence vs divergence", Raymond Detrez, Pieter Plas, Peter Lang, 2005
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Ulrich Ammon. Annuaire international de la sociolinguistique européenne, Volume 6 (Niemeyer Max Verlag GmbH, 1992), p. 137
949:" of dialects to the west of the Vardar river, in the area roughly defined by the quadrangle Prilep-Bitola-Kicevo-Veles."
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if you do not give me a valid statement soon im reverting the comment edit of yours to call him a macedo-bulgarian
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jingby, ive edited the wiki to label marko tzepenkov as macedo-bulgarian, because he is a macedonian bulgarian
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Mark J. Elson. A diachronic interpretation of Macedonian verbal morphology (E. Mellon Press, 1990), p. 174
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as an example then. Its speakers called it "English", but Knowledge nevertheless makes a distinction. --
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after its standard was codified. According to the same logic, Bulgarian has only existed since 1899. --
1499:"What it was and what is ". Yes, but not to the extent that modern speakers use a different variety. --
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a macedo-bulgarian = is an ethnic bulgarian born in the region of ottoman macedonia/north macedonia
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POV and doesn't override academic consensus. No, we should respect Cepenkov's choice of nation. --
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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such wording, is there? Impartiality is important, especially in the case of an encyclopaedia. --
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is quite important for an article on himself? Do you want your POV to substitute his one? --
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Irrelevant question. What are the similarities between the the languages, if any at all?--
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The following are linguistic publications dealing with the Prilep dialect as Macedonian:
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macedonia, you have to accept the facts that he isnt a bulgarian but a macedo-bulgarian
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Bulgarian, but today it is classified as Macedonian, after such language was codified.
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Robert M. W. Dixon. Studies in Evidentiality (John Benjamins Publishing, 2003), p. 192
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Only read the sources, but do not delete them! As you know, you are banned forever!
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We're discussing nomenclature, not mutual intelligibility. I'll play along... take
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Olga M. Tomić. Balkan Sprachbund Morpho-Syntactic Features (Springer, 2006), p. 342
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But unfortunately our EDITOR-IN-CHEIF Jingibay is here as he is everywhere... ;o)
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of Macedonian") and perhaps include a footnote explaining his use of terms. --
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which is a Macedonian dialect. I don't understand what you're objecting to. --
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Marko Tsepenkov was a Macedonian Bulgarian folklorist from Ottoman Macedonia,
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problem with the text, since it states what we've been discussing? --
330:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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Hi, the intro now contains thе same info written in another way:
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Marko Tsepenkov was a Bulgarian folklorist from Ottoman Macedonia
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For shure such language (Macedonian) did not exist at his time.
394:. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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935:(Chapter Five: The Perfect and the Evidential, I. Macedonian)
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This one makes specific reference to the works of Cepenkov:
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which contains a repetition of one and the same info, i.e.
1165:{Citation needed|date=May 2011} If you wont, just add one.
710:"In Cepenkov's tales a Macedonian speaking Christian is a
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In Cepenkov's tales a Macedonian speaking Christian is a
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928:), which border with the eastern Macedonian dialects "
924:"In some west-central dialects to the west of Prilep (
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Stub-Class articles with conflicting quality ratings
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lets look at the definition of a macedo-bulgarian :
214:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
112:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
248:This article has not yet received a rating on the
872:which is universally classified as Macedonian. --
560:The variety he wrote in is most definitely the
868:Cepenkov wrote in (and presumably spoke) the
542:So what language was the Macedonian populace
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1800:Macedonian Bulgarian from Ottoman Macedonia,
1853:Unknown-importance North Macedonia articles
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621:... and the Macedonian language is called
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1873:Automatically assessed biography articles
1670:No, Macedonian only gained an additional
1155:Today, his dialect is classified as the
1806:, which provids the same info. Thanks.
1153:By the way, in the lead is a sentence:
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228:Knowledge:WikiProject North Macedonia
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615:, a Macedonian speaking Muslim is a
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106:This article is within the scope of
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1747:Jingby, you keep confusing me
1742:05:58, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
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1689:False. No chance. Full stop.
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222:and see a list of open tasks.
129:Template:WikiProject Bulgaria
120:and see a list of open tasks.
1816:04:31, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
1786:19:37, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
1771:19:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
494:deal with that in detail. --
328:contribute to the discussion
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730:dialect by all experts. --
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763:. I've been banned? --
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1549:Variety? --
1240:Old English
1100:I said the
41:Start-class
1827:Categories
640:9052012970
413:Macedonian
398:parameter.
388:Stub-class
276:Stub‑class
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720:Nashincki
642:, p. 27.
624:Nashincki
337:Biography
273:Biography
779:Language
724:Bugarcki
630:Bugarcki
544:speaking
492:articles
123:Bulgaria
114:Bulgaria
70:Bulgaria
1808:Jingiby
1778:Gurther
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1672:variety
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150:on the
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607:Also:
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47:scale.
716:Pomak
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469:ToĐ´or
382:by a
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356:Stub
326:and
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142:Mid
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