Talk:Martin Bucer - Knowledge (XXG)

1965:" From p 120 - 123 we see the preachers again and again going to a reluctant Council pressing for action to be taken against dissenters - all before any rebellion in Munster. The issues were doctrinal. I notice you have not included my suggested additional wording in the third paragraph in the 129-33 section which would help rectify matters. AT present it reads: "However, the council still refused to take any action against Hoffman and Schwenckfeld." This gives the misleading impression, particularly when allied with the following sentence, that only a couple of (dangerous) individuals were targetted by Bucer. More accurate would be to say: "However, the council still refused to take any action against Hoffman, Schwenckfeld, the spiritualists or the anabaptists." Along with the additions you have already made, that should cover the issue enough fpr most purposes. 2195:

well as the nature of free imperial cities. I feel it would help if the article incorporated a distinction between Lutheran and Reformed regions. A map might help. Bucer at Strassburg was working in the context of the non-Lutheran Reformed religion, broadly in the west and southwest of Germany and in a string of cities in Switzerland. In a sense, unlike Lutheranism, this movement grew out of humanism and traditions of civic freedom. In this context, Bucer thrived, but as soon as the Interim dealt its blow to Reformed Protestantism while in effect allowing Lutheranism to persist under certain conditions, Bucer and Strassburg were left in disarray, and a split was created in the Reformed bloc whereby the Swiss cities could continue to develop idiosyncratically and the imperial ones either became more Catholic or more Lutheran.

1892:"Following the synod, the city council took no action for several months. Bucer strongly believed that the state had supreme authority to establish a rule of faith and to impose uniformity of belief on its citizens. The synod commission, which included Bucer and Capito as members, therefore took the initiative in producing a draft of an ordinance for the regulation of the church. This draft proposed that the city council should retain almost complete control of the church, with responsibilities for supervising doctrine, appointing church wardens, and maintaining moral standards. However, the council still refused to take any action against Hoffman, Schwenckfeld, or their followers. The pastors pressed their demands, even to the point of threatening resignation, and the council finally took action when followers of Hoffman 1563:

linked in with the Strasbourg, Augsburg or Ulm episodes, when he was promoting a German national church, or even his influence in England, we just need this element of Bucer's philosophy explicitly, rather than tangentially discussed. I notice that Greschat comes back to these issues on pp125-126, where he quotes Bucer: "..pressure and force on the part of the authorities were meaningful ways of educating people on becoming Christians. He wrote: "For it has been quite beneficial for many, as we have learned by experience and still remain convinced, to have been compelled first through fear and pain in order to become wiser, or to have followed with deeds what already had been learned with words." The State's right to determine and impose uniformity was a key element of Bucer's philosophy which needs to be made clear.

3111:

tends, in the way of these things, to paint him slightly as a Reformation hero. These parts reveal him in a less favourable light and are justified by their treatment in the sources I've read, which tend to be more general than the biographical ones used by Rel. Anyway, I've joined the two paragraphs together in a retitled section "Advice to Philip of Hesse". What's lacking is a unification of these two matters with the overall biography. In my opinion, Bucer's harshness to the Jews, like Luther's, was of a piece with his attitude to non-Christians or heretics; and his submissiveness to Philip was of a piece with his general sucking up to secular authorities. Don't know of a source that says that outright, but at at least this section shows some flaws in Bucer's thinking.

1404:

available means, including governmental force. Tolerance.. was tanatamount to negligence.." This is nowhere reflected in the article, and needs to be. The article only states the pastors pressed for action against Hoffman and Schwenckfeld, not mentioning the Anabaptists, and never states what action they were pressing for - expulsion. Instead it states "the pastors and wardens presented a petition on 30 November 1532 calling for better enforcement of ethical standards and the preaching of true doctrine." The expulsion, when it is finally mentioned is distanced from Bucer as an action of the council. Although in page 122 of Greschat it states that Bucer was prominent on the commission and took a main role in the interrogations of dissidents.

1650:

marriage was no longer a sacrament, the matter was secular and in Philip's hands rather than theirs: hence their refusual to make a public ruling on it. And they stuck to the line—how disingenuously I don't know—that their advice to Philip was confessional, not official. In advising him that if he really was bent on this, he should keep it secret, they were making the best of a bad job, as they might in pastorally advising others mired in complex secular relationships. Politically, this position was unsustainable, but it helps explain what, on the face of it, seems astonishing behaviour by the three reformers. To them it was consistent with reformed theology, though it may also have been a sophistry to keep Hesse on their side in the war.

1308:

and the other reformers, who wished to see them suppressed, and people forced to follow their teachings. Your new wording states: "The Strasbourg ministers pressed the council to stop the practice of mass in the remaining churches." 'Ban' might be a more accurate word than 'stop' here. Especially when his covers a campaign which takes up well over ten pages in Kittelson. Greschat p 107 shows Bucer involved in banning of the mass in Ulm also. The mincing of words with regard to Bucer is in sharp contrast with the language used of Emperor Charles, who elsewhere in the article is accused of "coercing the Protestants to return to Catholicism. Isn't this what Bucer had already done the other way round?

3681:

Peasants' War. I found it all very difficult hereabouts because the heading of the section constricts one to 1529–34. This was one of a number of places in the article where I felt the precise dating of sections cramped a more general treatment of Bucer's life and made anything other than tight chronology difficult. Greschat, for example, makes clear that all these events of the early 1530s were the result of a build up of issues from the time of the Peasants' War, when the defeat of the peasants and their subsequent persecution led to a series of migrations of refugees into Strasbourg, creating problems long before 1529.

1774:

theologians would blithely support bigamy and lies to cover it up. Brecht explains: "The theologians thus clearly indicated that they could give Philip nothing but extraordinary, pastoral advice in his predicament of conscience, and in no way was it to be made public. This sort of pastoral counsel, which declared that action that deviated from the norm was conscientiously permissible, was not all that unusual ... Such action was neither immoral nor a matter of double standards, but it was rather exercising Christian freedom, which a pastoral counselor, unlike a judge, could do" (Martin Brecht,

1448:" The key article sentence: "However, the council still refused to take any corrective action against Hoffman and Schwenckfeld." is one which I think needs to be amended. "Corrective" is an approving word, implying that the two were in the wrong and needed to be "corrected". The problem is reduced to two people, rather than to thousands of religious dissidents of varying pursuasions, and the nature of the action Bucer and others desired is not specified. A more accurate sentence would be something like: "However, the council still refused to take coercive action against religious dissidents." 2401:

power that made the Reformation in Germany possible. Within the Electorate of Saxony, Martin Luther was supported by the elector Frederick III and his successors John and John Frederick. Another elector, Philip I, Landgrave of Hesse was to figure largely in the life of Martin Bucer. The Emperor Charles V had to balance the demands of his subjects and at the same time three rival states, France, the Papal States, and the Ottoman Empire occupied his full attention. The political rivalry among all the players would greatly influence the ecclesiastical developments within the Empire."

831:

don't think that, when the terms on the assessment page were written, we really had any idea just how many articles we would be dealing with, and the amount of impact of varying degrees they would have on the topic of Christianity as a whole. I'm virtually certain they didn't have any idea there would be so many related projects. I do think that the terms of assessment as per that page need to be changed, but don't think I myself am necessarily qualified to unilaterally make those changes, but I still have to call them as I see them, right or wrong.

1665:

Selderhuis has an interesting theory. Given that Bucer believed in broad provisions for divorce, why did he not advise Philip to divorce his first wife? Bucer did so with other marriages that were equally troubled. Selderhuis believes that he was motivated out of concern for Philip's first wife who would suffer if he were to continue to have concubines. This seems to agree with Bucer's usual pastoral motivation. Whatever the reason, after Philip went ahead with the marriage, it is clear the reformers were in a bad situation with no way out. --

1635:

had already picked out the bride, but he did not reveal this. All were quite unhappy and appalled with this request. Given the fact that they relied on Philip for political support, they conceded on making a written statement, but would not make a public defense of the practice. The weak theological support was all that Philip wanted to see to go ahead with the marriage. When the wedding took place, Melanchthon and Bucer who happened to be nearby and were not informed of what Philip had done, became unwitting wedding guests. --

822:

not, I'm not that good at expressing myself on complicated ideas) a better way of saying it would be that the impact of this party seems to have been comparatively limited to a small area, both in terms of time, degree of impact, and amount of people impacted, certainly compared to some others. That would be the same justification for saying that some of the really small bodies/denominations/what have you which have had at best limited impact won't be very important to the project, based on that.

206: 2191:

encapsulate why in a way that would be actionable or helpful at FAC. It felt a bit like a trudge through the events without any overarching structure. I felt the material needed an overview and sense of what was distinctive and characteristic in Bucer's thought (apparently, for example, he was comically verbose: Collinson has some very witty remarks on this). Possibly the narrative needs to focus more on Bucer's most crucial views and to trim the less notable aspects of his career.

798:(Zwinglian) should not merit their mid-importance because all other branches of Christianity would rate them lower. In my opinion, the article should be rated by the Christianity project's proper criteria. Martin Bucer has an added boost in that both Lutheran and Calvinism projects rate the article as mid (and perhaps even the Anglican project as well). The definition from the Editor's experience definition for mid-importance articles says the following: 1548:

to the dictatorial subordination of the Church to the state and the imposition of uniformity. According to Greschat, Bucer argued that the civil authorities had the right and duty to carry out church reforms. And Greschat properly defines "civil authorities" by explicitly warning the reader that they are not the "modern, anonymous, and almost omnipotent state apparatus we know today", but weak entities that were only starting to develop at the time. --

21: 2021:

of Melchior Hoffman, Caspar Schwenckfeld, and Clemens Ziegler. Bucer personally took the responsibility of attacking their teachings in order to minimise their influence and to secure their expulsion." This formulation would wrongly give the impression that Bucer only desired the expulsion of the three persons mentioned, whose teachings he attacked. The addition of the words "and that of their followers" would solve this final problem.

442: 197: 54: 514: 1937:. I took a look at Eells and using that source I added a sentence in the second paragraph of the section about Bucer's personal motivation on dealing with the Anabaptists. Your proposal, however, cannot be supported; Eells clearly states that the struggle between the Anabaptists and the established Strasbourg church was not about intolerance, but the perception of the council to establish law and order (p. 146). -- 154: 75: 366: 327: 1896:. On 4 March 1534, wishing to avoid a similar incident, the council announced that Bucer’s Tetrapolitan Confession and his sixteen articles on church doctrine were official church statements of faith. All Anabaptists had to either subscribe to these documents or leave the city. With this announcement a new church was established in Strasbourg, at which Capito declared, "Bucer is the bishop of our church."" 583: 593: 562: 526: 257: 239: 1728:

words, "to guard the secrets of the confessional a lie is justified". If this was their justification, it explains (but does not, of course, validate) their motivation. It's part of a priest's discretion to keep confidential information secret and to advise those who come to them with problems, even where that means advising one evil over another (in this case, secret bigamy over open adultery).

770:

and Catholic churches give the subject a "Low" rating. Averaging them all out, I tend to see that, based on the available data, a "Low" rating for the generalized project is probably appropriate. However, if, upon consideration, other Christianity projects were to raise their importance assessment of the subject, then that higher assessment could likely affect the broader importance assessment.

466: 3669:"The petition was largely provoked by the effects of a rapidly rising refugee population, attracted by Strasbourg’s tolerant asylum policies, since the Peasants' War of 1524–25." Suggest making it clearer by "The petition was largely provoked by the effects of a rapidly rising refugee population since the Peasants' War of 1524–25, who were attracted by Strasbourg’s tolerant asylum policies." 376: 901:, who says that Bucer "is usually placed number four in the premier league of reformers, after Luther, Zwingli and Calvin". Bucer's significance to the history of Christianity is that he opposed the great split between Lutheran and other reformed Churches that characterises Protestant Christianity to this day and which arrested the Protestant onslaught on Catholicism at the time. 490: 1346:"Suppress" in my opinion would be most accurate word, but "Abolish" better reflects the factual situation than the previous wording. The important thing is not my "particular opinion", but making the facts clear. There is often a tendency to write hagiographies of the reformers. But if they used coercive techniques, that needs to be said as much for them as for the Catholics. 1952:

You link all the dissident groups with Melchior Hoffman and his radical views. But the other groups were no threat to law and order. Greschat p 119 mentions Melchior and Hut as radicals, but also Schwenkfeld and Ziegler who were quiet spiritualists, and Marpeck and the Swiss brethren, who were peaceable anabaptists. Bucer explicitly admits the "

267: 3066:"They rejected even a mild statement suggesting a union of Christ with the elements of the Eucharist." is going to be so much gobbledygook to non-ecclesiastical folks. I know what it means but i know I probably know more about theological matters than most non-theologians. Surely there is a better way to word this? 3680:

Changed to: "The petition's timing was largely provoked by the effects of a rapidly rising refugee population, attracted by Strasbourg’s tolerant asylum policies. Influxes of refugees, particularly after 1528, had brought a series of revolutionary preachers into Strasbourg." This loses mention of the

3161:

On Saxony, I've added more to the caption in the Context section's map. I'm reluctant to do so in the body of that section because really Saxony isn't a crucial part of Bucer's life. But since that map is based on the partitions of Saxony and is not at all self-explanatory, the info seems appropriate

2783:

Fourth paragraph - the fourth sentence "Bucer was sympathetic to Luther and humanism, and established contacts with other humanists and reformers including Ulrich von Hutten and Wolfgang Capito." seems pretty odd in here. You've already established that Bucer was sympathetic to Luther in the previous

2548:

Relhistbuff, I am sorry your FAC was archived. I thought the article was FA quality and I was going to post my support after those minor adjustments asking for a bit more on his personal family life. I thought the article was an excellent overview of his life otherwise. If it is any consolation, they

2330:

and it looks like I could conceivably work with the public domain map and make some changes. I would have to properly attribute the source of course. What I had intended to do is to largely keep the map as it is and to note the major cities in red (e.g., Wittenberg, Strasbourg, etc.). In that way the

2295:

If you just copy it, no. But if you use it at a basis for a map that may omit certain of its information and add information from other maps, I don't see how you could be challenged on copyright. I think it's best to use information from, say, three or more maps, and then cite them on the image page.

2065:

Eells specifically referred to "the leaders" and then proceeded to describe each one. So your clause goes beyond what the source says. But it is not difficult to imagine that anyone else who kept to their teachings would have been treated similarly, so for the sake of ending this, I added the clause.

2020:

However your most recent changes have altered the problem. Reference to action against hoffman and Schwenkfeld has been removed from the 3rd to the 2nd paragraph. The relevant statement in that paragraph is "Significant numbers of the refugees were Anabaptists, and spiritualists such as the followers

1900:

Looking at the paragraph directly above this, I also spotted the sentence. "the pastors and wardens presented a petition on 30 November 1532, calling for better enforcement of ethical standards and the preaching of true doctrine." For NPOV reasons, should this not say "what the pastors believed to be

1664:

The Selderhuis source that I have goes into deeper details and I am not sure if the reformers thought of it in such a "hands-off" way. Bucer clearly was troubled by the request and he took the matter of marriage as something instituted by God, not something that could be cast off as a secular matter.

1634:

Here I will add a paragraph on this, but it is most certainly false to say that Bucer promoted and advocated the bigamous marriage. It was Philip who wanted the marriage and he asked Luther, Melanchthon, and Bucer for theological support for a bigamous marriage without making clear his intentions; he

1522:

Maybe. But it needs to be stated for the reader that these were Bucer's views pp 113 - 115 of Grechat expound Bucer's important views on the subordination of Church to the state, and the state's right to impose its uniformity. The sentences in the section "Organising the Strasbourg Church" don't give

1507:

This is not omitted. The section notes that the reformers requested the council again and again to take decisions, i.e., the council were given the authority, but at times did not act. This is not something unique about Bucer. All the major reformers (Luther in Wittenberg, Cranmer in England, Knox in

1499:

Another serious omission is the failure to deal with Bucer's beliefs that the State had authority to rule the Church in all respects including doctrine and appointments. In the section "Organising the Strasbourg church " blame again is placed on the Council while no attempt is made to portray Bucer's

1403:

Greschat p 118 clearly states that the impetus for coercive action against the Anabaptists came from Bucer. "Bucer was convinced that such measures (preaching and pursuasion) were not enough. Rather God's revelation had to be staunchly asserted as the whole truth and then imposed on the city with all

1218:

It was a time of conflict. Either Catholicism in a location flourished or it was suppressed. Either Protestantism flourished or it was suppressed. It is evident that if Bucer was pushing for the reformation of Strasbourg then at least certain doctrines and liturgical practices of Catholicism would be

1106:

There is no specific statement in either Greschat or Eells that Bucer's preaching was the cause of the mob riot. For certain the people were inflamed by the heated exchange between Treger and the reformers: Treger published a tract and Capito responded with another; Bucer, Lambert, and Capito invited

722:

Yes, I was going to keep the template, but it got kind of bothersome seeing it each time I updated the article, so I removed it. I usually write the lead just before I submit to GA or PR. Do you know if I can remove the GA nomination myself? It seems like it is one of these drive-by nominations and I

4636:

I think you would find that in English it was always Strasbourg, Strassborg or similar, even before it was part of France. Since all these are effectively different ways of spelling the same name, without even a Cologne/Köln-type variation, I think Strasbourg should be used, as I think you will find

4556:

I agree. I found the article fascinating, especially since I had never heard of him before. My neighborhood in Berlin has streets named after a lot of figures in the history of Protestantism, including the Waldensians (ironically, there's a Roman Catholic Church on Waldenserstraße), Calvin, Zwingli,

3110:

Neither this nor the bigamy paragraph were in the article as RelHistBuff submitted it, which is why they might seem a bit tacked on. I believe that both issues are significant to an appraisal of Bucer. The article's subtextual narrative, in my opinion, is "Bucer the Reformer", and in that respect it

2411:

It is misleading to say:"three rival states, France, the Papal States, and the Ottoman Empire" - rather like saying "Russia, Sweden and China" today. The Papal states were not in the same league by a million miles, nor any sort of rival to the Empire or the other 2, & when they later allied with

2369:

the Schmalkaldic War; but it does serve a useful purpose in allowing readers to see where the cities and territories were in relation to each other, which does help the context section. I think the map and the section are certainly worthwhile because the geography of the Reformation is so complex to

1989:

There is some confusion between what was done by the synod in June 1533 and the actions (or lack of actions) of the council afterwards. This has been rectified. I have already added the sentence about Bucer's personal motivation against the anabaptists and spiritualists that addresses the points you

1758:

Eells mentions that Luther disagreed with a divorce. None of the sources that I have (Selderhuis, Eells, or Greschat) give any theories on why the reformers would advocate lying. None of them have an explicit statement like the one made by Bainton on Luther's justification. I think the best I can do

1547:

Bucer's views on civil authority as described on pages 113-115 are based in another context, i.e., later in 1535 when he was in Augsburg. These views were not stated in the context of the Strasbourg reformation of 1534. In any case it is a gross exaggeration to say that his views corresponded simply

1523:

the reader any idea of these influential views of Bucer. Instead a commission is presented as granting controls to the city. This doesn't state what Bucer's views were at all. And the doctrine that the Church was subordinate to the State had a great effect on germany right through to Hitler's time.

1443:

I think the sources show that the Council was extremely reluctant to use compulsion both against the Catholics and the Anabaptists, and that the campaign for this came forcefully from Bucer and his allies. This is an important point not fully enough reflected in the wording of the 1529-1534 section.

1307:

There were four official churches where public mass was retained by the Council, but also, as Kittelson shows, numerous other churches which held monastic or private masses. It was feared that a significant proportion of the population was attending these masses, and so they aroused the ire of Bucer

1107:

Treger to a disputation which ended in a draw; etc. Some of the citizens petitioned the council to arrest Treger. Other, wilder citizens broke into the cloister and brought Treger to the council themselves. The paraphrase "emotions reached the boiling point" captures what is in Greschat and Eells. --

821:

Um, actually, that's not what I was trying to do, although I understand that my phrasing my poor. And you might be right. I personally don't know how the other articles in question got their own importance ratings, so I'm not sure whether comparing them is something I'm qualified to do. Maybe (maybe

785:

I understand what you are trying to do, but I must disagree with your assessment. Using an average of the importance ratings from other Christianity-related projects is a faulty method. Any biography of a prominent figure from one major branch would be brought down by "averaging" over other branches

4614:

a few years ago was to use "Danzig" when referring to periods of history when it belonged to Germany* and "Gdańsk" when referring to periods of history when it belonged to Poland. That may be considered to establish a precedent for Strasbourg. Cologne and Munich are different cases, firstly because

4595:

I cannot find the guidance in the MoS, but I believe the convention is to use the modern accepted spelling among anglophones. Neither the historical nor current non-anglophone spellings are used. This seems clear when one looks at all the historical articles that use Cologne instead of Köln, Munich

4089:

Unfortunately, specific items were not mentioned. Greschat mentioned some of what they discussed (added a couple items in the text) and I could see how the two might disagree on some of the issues like liturgy, the use of images, the dissolution of monasteries, etc.. But he did not specifically say

3767:

Thanks for this useful list: some smart catches. I've addressed the ones where my fingerprints were on the prose and leave the rest to RelHistBuff. I've explained a few of the things you requested, but I think with colloquies, disputations, etc., it's clear enough from the context roughly what they

3149:

Okay, you're going to have to explain briefly the difference between Ducal and Electoral Saxony. Suggest it happen in the context section, which honestly probably needs a bit of expansion to cover the main background events of the German reformation (i.e. Luther as leader, any other events that are

3125:

It was Xandar who suggested adding Philip's bigamous marriage. This, I definitely agree should be in the article. The ODNB article on Bucer mentions it, although it does not say much about it, but the controversy is well-known so it should be included. It was Qp10qp who suggested putting in Bucer's

2525:

I was trying to make the heading less unwieldy, but, now you point that out, I agree that it should be changed back to "Electorate of Cologne". I did read that the archbishop was only allowed in the city with permission from the authorities by Bucer's time, owing to earlier reactions against church

2214:

The sources mentioned his verbosity, Greschat in particular, and yes, I thought it livened up those books. Luther and Calvin themselves wrote some funny comments (something like "Bucer cannot lift his pen off the paper"). It is kind of difficult to put this kind of info in an article. In a book the

1562:

All the same, the church-state is an important issue, which the article does not sufficiently discuss. If large sections can be devoted to intra-protestant negotiations and the eucharist, surely a small paragraph needs to be given to this subject. I don't think the concern is whether it needs to be

993:

So how do you define "most"? Are Duns Scotus, Jonathan Edwards, etc. included in "most"? It is not quite fair to suddenly change the goalpost. Rather than picking on one article and arbitrarily setting the article low because you happen to have not "heard of" the character, the criteria ought to be

978:

It is based on the criteria, esp that "The article is not required knowledge for a broad understanding of Christianity." imples Low Importance. The only basis under which this article could be considered Mid importance is the highly illogical sentence in part of Mid which says "Most people involved

867:

I beg to differ. Which criterion are you referring to? The one for Wikiproject Christianity states "The article covers a topic that has a strong but not vital role in the history of Christianity." Under editor's experience it says, "Most people involved in Christianity will be rated in this level."

801:

Articles at this level will cover subjects that are well known but not necessarily vital to understand Christianity. Due to the topics covered at this level, Mid-importance articles will generally have more technical terms used in the article text. Most people involved in Christianity will be rated

769:

Based on what I can see from the other banners on this page, a "Low" rating would probably make sense. The highest importance ratings I see for the article are from two groups directly influenced by the subject, and they both only give the subject "Mid" importance. Presumably, the Orthodox churches

687:

I just wanted to mention that I think it is too early for GA nomination. I have been working on this for about half a year and a large part of it is not finished yet. I have just started the Champion for Protestant unity section and the England, Theology, Legacy, and Works sections still need to be

4540:

This is the type of encyclopedia articles that really makes Knowledge (XXG) shine when it is featured. In my younger days, I was a budding Lutheran theologian and I am quite impressed to see such a well research and neutral portrayal of Bucer that tackles some of the complex issues of his life and

4013:

In 1528, when Luther published Vom Abendmahl Christi, Bekenntnis (Confession Concerning Christ's Supper), detailing Luther’s concept of the sacramental union, Bucer responded with a treatise of his own, Vergleichnung D. Luthers, und seins gegentheyls, vom Abendmal Christi (Conciliation between Dr.

2851:

Same paragraph, last sentence "... but the city council decided to allow masses to continue in the cathedral and in the collegiate churches, St Thomas', Young St Peter's, and Old St Peter's." do you mean that the three named churches are collegiate churches or were masses allowed to be said in any

2400:

This could do with some rewriting: "In the sixteenth century, the Holy Roman Empire was a centralised state in name only. The Empire was partly divided by mini-states controlled by the prince-electors and they provided a powerful check on the rule of the Holy Roman Emperor. It was this division of

1951:

What you say in the last sentence is in clear contradiction to Greschat. The Council did indeed finally act when Melchiortes took over Munster. However Bucer and his allied pastors had been pressing them to take coercive action against all other groups in the city for a lengthy period before this.

1727:

RelHistBuff, I suspect the fact that divorce was not an option may be down to Luther (and Melanchthon). I still believe that the passage needs at least to take a stab at what was going through the reformers' minds. Why would they advocate lying? The only possible reason would be that, in Bainton's

1388:

But the sentence right after the "enforcement" sentence says this was triggered by the Anabaptists presence. That is pretty explicit. The petition came from the reformers (which included Bucer). The expulsion is not "blamed" on the council; on the contrary, it is pretty clear that the pastors were

1284:

The article here uses weasel words like, the reformers asked the council to "completely abandon the mass". No. Those who wanted to had abandoned the mass. Bucer demanded that the worship and preaching of Catholics in the city be completely banned and suppressed. He argued the same in Ulm, Augsburg

1158:

Although the sources do not mention it specifically, I would assume others had to flee. The article says many opponents were arrested and overt opposition came to an end. Basically, Treger (and Murner) had to flee. These were the main characters and certainly there were others, but it does not add

830:

uses to determine its importance rankings, using consensus to determine importance. Initially, that discussion might only be for the Top and maybe High, but in the process we would have the opportunity to more effectively delineate the importance assessments for the project as a whole. Honestly, I

2194:

The article gave me no real geographical sense of the dissemination of the reformation and of the strategy of Catholic resistance. I think to grasp Bucer, it might be necessary to explain the nature of the empire: which parts were controlled directly by the emperor, which by Protestant rulers, as

1649:

By coincidence, I was looking into this issue yesterday for the Luther article. The passage on it here, as it stands now, seems fair, except that the reformers' behaviour appears rather extraordinary, as described, without some explanation of their reasoning. I think the reformers felt that since

1587:

That Bucer quote on pp 125-126 was written in the context of a response to Engelbrecht in describing how to deal with the "Epicureans". It is not wise to take bits and quotes from various situations and different contexts and then attempt to make a conclusion that was not made in the source. That

920:

is also set at mid-importance, but his impact is basically centred in the US. Is he well-known in the UK? Bucer's impact was much wider, although admittedly mainly on the Continent rather than in England; he only lived the final two years of his life in Cambridge. But he did enough for England so

2716:

You say it was likely that he attended the latin school, but in the next sentence you say "By the time he completed his studies in the summer of 1507, he was able to read and speak Latin fluently, and in the same year he joined the Dominican order as a novice." which implies that he DID attend a

1233:

But what initiated the conflict? There was no necessity for the enforced state suppression of Catholic beleif and practice - and the Strasbourg council certainly did not see a necessity for this. There was no inevitability about non-tolerance, and toleration was attempted in several places, most

3449:

Third paragraph, first sentence ... very long and awkward. Suggest reworking somehow, perhaps splitting it into two? Maybe "These first steps toward reform were halted on 17 August 1543 when Charles V and his troops entered Bonn. Charles was conducting a harsh campaign to prevent the Protestant

1880:

After recent changes, while I still have minor concerns with some of the other wording, only two (connected) issues now remain outstanding in the article which I feel cause it to fall short of the FA criteria on comprehensiveness. These are the failure to clearly state Bucer's beliefs about the

1847:

Xandar, it's true Mullett says that, and it's a good book, but he seems to be the only source who does, and so it's not necessary to go quite so far out on his limb. I think all three reformers were reluctant over the matter and embarrassed by it. If they appeared to give the bigamy any sort of

838:

regarding this topic, you're more than welcome to do so. Also, if you would wish to formally relist the article on the assessments page, feel free to do so, indicating that you disagreed with the assessment given. But, personally, I'm not particularly comfortable doing a lot of these importance

4731:

The only reason I can see for a possible Medium rating is the Editors Experience version of Mid which says "Articles at this level will cover subjects that are well known but not necessarily vital to understand Christianity. Due to the topics covered at this level, Mid-importance articles will

2990:

You first mention that the Schmalkaldic league was Protestant in the last sentence of this section, which is a bit of a jar for those who might not know that it was Protestant. Suggest incorparting in the first sentence of the third paragraph "...to defend the reformed religion, often known as

1428:

According to Greschat, Bucer wanted to either win back the Anabaptists or demand their expulsion; he did this by pressing the council to establish a norm. But it was the council that eventually decided to elevate Bucer's documents as statements of faith. Again this is clearly in the source and

963:

If one takes that logic, then Martin Luther who participated in one episode of 2000 years should also be considered Low-importance. One should look at the individual's impact on Christianity. In my opinion, someone like Bucer had less impact on Christianity than Luther, but certainly more than

703:

Ah ha! I was going to tell you that if you still view the article as a work in progress then you should withdraw the GA nomination, but now I see you're not the one who nominated it. This appears to be a rare instance of someone nominating an article who hasn't worked on it. When everything is

2190:

I don't want to comment there for the moment because I'm not ready to support but haven't really got the time to review the article bit by bit or undertake an intense copyedit. The article is superbly referenced and extensive, but for me it is still quite stodgy, and I'm not sure I can really

1928:

The word "true" was used by the source because the sentence was written from the point-of-view of the reformers. Still, to avoid misunderstandings, I changed it to "reformed". The only difference with your paragraph proposal and what is currently in the article is the addition of the sentence

1380:

There is the same pussyfooting with regard to the Anabaptists, who Bucer wanted to recant or be expelled from Strasbourg. The article says only that he and his pastors were "calling for better enforcement of ethical standards and the preaching of true doctrine." The expulsion is blamed on the

2491:

I think I read in a source somewhere that there is a difference between the imperial free city of Cologne and the Electorate of Cologne. Hermann von Wied's archbishopric covered the area around Cologne, but not Cologne itself. His capital was in Bonn. I didn't try to explicitly explain this

1773:

Brecht, in effect, says the same as Bainton. And it is simple: the confessional is secret and so lying may be necessary to protect that secrecy. The article's present paragraph on the bigamy contains no rationale and therefore jolts the reader, who may be forgiven for asking why priests and

4014:

Luther and His Opponents Regarding Christ’s Supper). It took the form of a dialogue between two merchants, one from Nuremberg who supported Luther and the other from Strasbourg who supported Bucer, with the latter winning over his opponent. Luther harshly rejected Bucer's interpretation.

4579:

Bucer came from Straßburg. What is the Knowledge (XXG) convention for the names of cities that were different during the life an historical figure? Should it be stated that he was from Straßburg (the name of the city during his life) or Strasbourg the current French name? Just curious.

3636:"On 5 January 1530, when Strasbourg had allied with the Swiss cities (Christliches Burgrecht or Christian Federation), the council systematically..." did they ally with the Christian Federation or was the new grouping of Strasbourg with the Swiss the Christian Federation? Unclear. 2526:

power, but I had assumed that the church wouldn't have recognised that. Certainly all the action for Bucer was in Bonn, so I can see that the word "Electorate" should go back. Actually, I found so many names and titles for this entity today that I threw my hands up in despair.

1881:

State-Church relationship, and to make clearer his influence on the banning of the Anabaptists and others. While, ideally, I would like to see a full paragraph on the former subject; both of these issues could quite easily be dealt with in the final paragraph of the section:

1292:

In two sections above, it is mentioned that the holding of mass was retained in four churches. The reformers asked that those remaining four to also abandon the mass, hence the adverb "completely". I see no weasel words here, but I came up with different wording in any case.

3253:"Aware of the risks of such apparent collusion, he was determined to forge unity among the German churches." I'm unclear what is meant here, do you mean "Aware of the risks of such apparent collusion, he was nevertheless determined to forge unity among the German churches."? 4653:

Personally I wouldn't mind using Straßburg, although some people might get a bit disturbed with the Eszett (ß). But I do think that Strasbourg is the most widely known spelling among anglophones. My fear is that if the spelling was changed, we might end up re-enacting the

2242:

Well, even a map of the Empire with Electoral Saxony and Hesse marked would help, plus a few relevant cities. The importance of Bucer to Hesse would then become geographically apparent, though it is not explained in the article. As would Hesse's strategic importance (and

2223:

WillowW's advice and I think that really helped. I agree that it will help here as well. I couldn't find an appropriate map of the HRE divided between Lutheran and Reformed regions (analogous to the Swiss Confederation map), so I will probably have to make one myself.

1234:

prominently Poland, parts of Switzerland, and France. In this case the pressure for intolerance came clearly from Bucer and his allies, who ran a five year campaign, described in Greschat p88 as intimidatory, menacing and insulting. There are more extensive details in

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An example or two of the content? It seems Bucer had signed to a definition of justification by faith that did not satisfy the Lutherans? Was this a new departure. What was the difference in Bucer's position?

2331:

reader could quickly see the geographical spread of Bucer's field of influence. For the moment, I am using the original public domain map, but if a modified map is legal to upload, then I could replace it. --

3459:

Changed to: "These first steps toward reform were halted on 17 August 1543 when Charles V and his troops entered Bonn. The emperor was engaged in a harsh campaign to assert his claim over lands contested by

4736:" (italics added). The last sentence of this seems totally illogical and contradicts the rest of the criteria. I think we should remove it and there is a discussion on the assessment talk page about it. 1099:

The article says that "emotions reached boiling point", and "angry mobs formed and broke into the monasteries, looting and destroying" without saying anything about the role of Bucer's preaching in this.

1785:, p. 206). Clearly Bucer, Melanchthon, and Luther—whatever their subconscious motives—rationalised their action together and believed they were acting in good faith and secrecy in confessional counsel. 4880: 853:

It's a v. nice article and he's a mid-importance figure in the history of protestantism but on the stated criteria by no stretch of the imagination could be rated as mid for Christianity as a whole.

1025: 141: 122: 35: 3383:"The hostility of the clergy towards Bucer induced Gropper to retreat from their friendship." Stilted. Suggest "The hostility of his cathedral clergy caused Gropper to distance himself from Bucer." 210: 3768:

were. I'm not sure the reader would want precise explanations of all terms. It's such a difficulty, though, with "encyclopedic prose", to judge the line between explaining and over-explaining.

2818:

Fourth paragraph, first sentence - probably need to explain "order of service" somehow, most folks not steeped in ecclesiastical matters aren't going to realise you mean a church service here.

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Bucer complained repeatedly about the growing influence of the sectarians and the fateful consequences their activities had for the creation of new evangelical church structures in Strasbourg.

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that a significant article on him exists in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. As the blurb of the ODNB says: "the people who shaped the history of the British Isles and beyond". --

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Thanks for all the comments, Ealdgyth. And thanks Qp10qp for responding to a few before I can get to them! I am on the road again for the next two days, but will address what is left. --

1799:

With a statement from Brecht, I think this is more solid. Bainton had only one sentence, so the theory did not appear well-supported. I added a few sentences based on the two sources. --

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in Christianity will be rated in" Mid Importance. This is inconsistent with the rest of the criteria and I think there is a consensus on the talk page to remove it, which I have done.

4162:

Anything distinctive about these? Also, it might be worth saying something about his theological basis for a council-controlled church and perhaps relating this to the Calvin version.

1429:

reflected in the article. There is no bad faith attempt to distance Bucer from the council's final decision; it is clear he and the other pastors pressed the council to set a norm. --

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It is clear from Greschat that there were far more groups in Strasbourg than those of Hoffman and Schwenckfeld, and that these were in competition with Bucer for followers. p112 "

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Bucer and Capito attended and urged the Swiss to adopt a compromise wording on the Eucharist that would not offend the Lutherans. The result was the First Helvetic Confession.

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Bucer had ambitious goals in diffusing the Reformation throughout England. He was disappointed, therefore, when those in power failed to consult him in bringing about change.

1446:

Bucer thought people who took their Christian faith seriously joined the Anabaptists or spiritualists... The official preachers felt like powerless fighters for a lost cause.

2915:

Picky detail but generally you've given book/treatise titles in the original and then a translation in ()'s, but in the second paragraph here you give just a translation of

2419:

Nor did the 3 "occupy his full attention" as he had plenty left for German affairs, which he probably spent more time on than anything else, together with governing Spain.

1508:

Scotland, Zwingli in Zürich, Calvin in Geneva) advocated that the State rather than the Church (the papacy) to take the lead. That was the whole point of the Reformation. --

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Martyr asked Bucer for his support, but Bucer did not totally agree with Martyr’s position and thought that exposure of differences would not assist the cause of reform

3603:"On 20 February 1529, Strasbourg openly joined the Reformation when its practice was officially suspended." you are using "its" to refer to the mass? It's a bit unclear 3162:

there. In the Colloquies section, I have made it clear that Electoral Saxony was Lutheran and added a note guiding the reader to check the map for more on the Saxonies.

4990: 432: 4955: 3852:. This might be a place to introduce a brief summary of Luther's revolution and to report something of Bucer's response, revealing his earliest reforming position. 2660:

I've taken the comma out. It's difficult to write cleanly, because some of his wars in Italy weren't directly against France, for example the one against Florence.

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At the time, Bucer’s and Zwingli’s position on the eucharist were identical. But unlike Zwingli, Bucer was willing to accept Luther's position. Added a sentence.

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There is no doubt that he is notable, and pretty important in the history of the Reformation, but that is only one episode in the c.2,000 years Christianity.

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Wilhelm, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg, from asserting control over strategically vital lands that Charles claimed for himself." but even that is still awkward.

3330:

Added "As one of the seven electors of the Holy Roman Empire, the archbishop of Cologne was a key political figure for both the emperor and the reformers.".

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Could you explain a bit more what you mean, and say where you think this is needed? The paragraph does say that his initiatives were to achieve agreement.

1040:

Thomas Murner was not just a "satirist" who attacked Luther, he was a poet and Franciscan who published pro-Catholic tracts, and whose press was attacked.

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The 6 (the Emperor himself was the 7th) prince-electors were only a handful, though major players, of the dozens if not hundreds of princely rulers.

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ratings anyway, and am kinda at a loss to defend myself. Probably not the kind of response you were looking for, but the best I've got, I'm afraid.

3350:

Suggest small explanation of what a cathedral chapter so folks don't have to click through to another article to get a brief idea of what is meant.

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By Elsie Anne McKee, p59-60, Murner is described as a Franciscan who had a printing press in the city, which was attacked in the riot of 1524.

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I will use Kittelson's word "abolish". For me, it is the same as the original wording, but I see you have a particular opinion about this. --

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paragraph, and I'm thinking the other information would be better in the third paragraph, which establishes his sympathy with the reform.

2405:"The Empire was partly divided by mini-states" - "The Empire was divided into mini-states" would be better. What was the un-divided part? 284:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge (XXG)'s articles about people. All interested editors are invited to 5010: 4728:"Few readers outside the Christianity field or that are not adherents to atheism may be familiar with the subject matter." also says Low 3184:".. a former Lutheran who had converted.." wouldn't that be reconverted? I suspect he was baptised a Catholic since he was born in 1501. 1151:

Treger, "left Strasbourg" after the riot and imprisonment. Nothing is mentioned about the many other priests and canons forced to flee.

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Suggest you make it clear that Bucer was attempting to secure agreement between the various cities, as they never quite got agreement.

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This is a very helpful and impressive article. But I think in the context of Christianity as a whole the subject is Low importance.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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Bucer's four year campaign, described by others as intimidatory, for the suppression of Catholicism in Strasbourg is not mentioned.

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One of Bucer's first actions in the cause of reform was to debate with Thomas Murner, a monk who had attacked Luther in satires.

868:

This fits Martin Bucer. One does not have to be too imaginative to believe that he would fit within one sigma from the mean. --

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as a starting basis. Do you know if I could use this to derive another map since the original map is in the public domain? --

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Greschat gives a lot of details about the Sélestat school. I put in a note to the source if a reader is curious about it. --

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Second paragraph - again with the translated title for a work when we've been working with mainly original language titles.

4725:

Clearly "The article is not required knowledge for a broad understanding of Christianity." which is the main Low criterion

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Therefore I would request that Martin Bucer be placed at mid-importance level along with Scotus, Wesley, and Bullinger. --

2553:) even though the oppose was asking for information that is not even covered in the scholarly works that cover the topic. 4856: 4545: 3915:

Bucer drafted twelve articles summarising the teachings of the Reformation, including justification by faith (sola fide)

2932:

Unfortunately the source does not always remain consistent either. Fortunately I got the title from the other source. --

531: 2511:; it had only been the case since 1475, and the archbishop retained some jurisdiction in criminal matters in the city. 2412:

France they were occupied by Imperial mutineers with resistance limited to a few hours getting over the walls of Rome

3264:

Changed to: "He was prepared to risk apparent collusion in his determination forge unity among the German churches".

53: 3978:. Is there anything more precise to say on Bucer's position on the eucharist, which comes over a bit wishy washy. 2327: 1683:, p231, goes further than this by stating that Bucer was willing to confer "a kind of blessing" on the marriage. 4812:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

3556:"... imprisoned in the Tower..." you mean the Tower of London, correct? It's not totally clear if that is meant. 4782:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080917015512/http://www.bucer.de/ueberuns/werwirsind/00000093d5075a609/index.html

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Perhaps say in what way, since humanism influences his civic view of the church community in the body politic.

2957:

second paragraph ".. face military suppression." sound very stilted, any chance of a reword to something else?

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I will reread the sources and give it a shot. I have Bainton as well so I can take a look at what he says. --

1062:

Murner is mentioned in several books as one of the two defenders of Catholicism in the city and district. In

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After Bucer's death, his writings continued to be translated, reprinted, and disseminated throughout Europe

2683:

Do we have an article on Latin schools? If not, should probably explain what it is briefly in this article

1262:

Page 88 in Greschat is about the political development of the Empire and has nothing to do about Bucer. --

2580:

Second paragraph, need something to connect him with Strasbourg, how'd he get there? Was he always there?

704:

rounded out the lead should definitely be longer than one sentence, but the lead is generally one of the

4831:

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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I believe the "also" in this sentence is unneeded "Bucer also promoted a doctrinal position of his own."

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true doctrine"? Or (if the words are a direct quotation,) "true doctrine" should be in inverted commas.

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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Changed to: "They rejected even a mild statement on Christ's real presence in the bread and the wine."

3745:

Many good points, but I doubt it is feasible to explain all the things mentioned above, even briefly.

1956:" of the anabaptists. Greschat (119-120) specifically states the main quarrel was about intolerance: " 153: 74: 1893: 4282:

Simple Consideration Concerning the Establishment of a Christian Reformation Founded upon God’s Word

3250:

At some point you need to explain briefly, not just link to articles on, colloquy, disputation, etc.

3217:"... Melanchthon withdrew, feeling that doctrinal unity was a prerequisite." A prerequisite to what? 44: 4506: 4357:

I added a sentence, but unfortunately there was nothing substantial in either Eells or Greschat. --

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

4832: 3703:"The three leaders were brought before the synod and questioned by Bucer." Which three leaders? 3150:

major that Bucer didn't take a leading role in, who the leading figures on each side are, etc.)

2365:

If it's PD, it's modifiable. It's not ideal for scene-setting, though, because it shows Saxony

1929:

mentioning "supreme authority" and "impose uniformity". This has already been discussed in the

1121:

Greschat does mentions the intimidating menaces of the preachers in similar contexts, however.

4677: 4642: 4585: 4064:. Might be worth pick out one or two of the things they discussed and perhaps a disagreement. 3850:

He largely agreed with them and perceived the ideas of Luther and Erasmus to be in concordance

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Referring to several maps is also a good way to offset any idiosyncrasies in individual maps.

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it. Actually if you restore the template that will be a reason. Alternatively you could go to

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The Worms Book laid the groundwork for final negotiations at the Diet of Regensburg in 1541.

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For this gathering, Bucer provided a draft document of sixteen articles on church doctrine.

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Changed to: "The hostility of the clergy soon caused a rift between Bucer and Gropper".

4798:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 4624: 4563: 4499: 791: 4838:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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the extent to which Bucer influenced Calvin is an open question among modern scholars

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Last edited at 15:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 23:18, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Third paragraph, suggest going with your usual practice and giving original of the

2512: 2440: 2420: 1933:. This sentence is not supported by Greschat and without such support, it would be 513: 394: 3614:

Yes, I changed that almost immediately when I reread it. You were in there quick!

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I've made it clear there were just these three collegiate churches in Strasbourg.

3858:

He summarised his convictions in six theses, and called for a public disputation.

1888:

Amending the paragraph as follows would go a long way to meeting these concerns:

1592:. The current text in the article reflects the source and it is fine as it is. -- 4737: 4542: 4480: 3769: 3715: 3682: 3615: 3568: 3497: 3465: 3395: 3331: 3265: 3229: 3196: 3163: 3112: 3078: 3045: 3003: 2969: 2894: 2862: 2661: 2527: 2466: 2371: 2297: 2244: 2200: 2167: 2124: 2081: 2022: 1966: 1902: 1849: 1786: 1729: 1684: 1651: 1564: 1524: 1449: 1405: 1347: 1309: 1239: 1174: 1122: 1070: 1021: 980: 950: 902: 883: 854: 834:

If you would want to join in the discussion regarding importance assessments at

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I know Greschat had a section on this. I will need to check Eells as well. --

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I found this confusing in the article, so a clarification would be welcome.

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I've removed that sentence because I think the sense is clear without it.

618:-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us 614: 4436:. An opportunity for a summing up of the main elements of his theology? 4261:

Yes, he conceded some issues, took a stand on others. Details added. --

1173:

Mention could be mentioned of Treger and other priests having to flee.

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Yes I think it's better in this case to let sleeping dogs lie. Thanks

2080:

Thank you. I think that clarifies matters and deals with my concerns.

1159:

anything to mention this for every conflict during the Reformation. --

949:

IMHO should be Low as well (another person I've only dimly heard of).

4218:. Possibly give an idea of the areas of possible doctrinal influence? 3321:

Need to explain what "archbishop-elector" is for the non-medievalist.

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http://www.bucer.de/ueberuns/werwirsind/00000093d5075a609/index.html

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Most people involved in Christianity will be rated in this level.

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Changed to ".. or he would use military force to suppress them".

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generally have more technical terms used in the article text.

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What did they agree on that would have offended the Lutherans?

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Is Nathaniel the only child of Bucer's who survived childhood?

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school, which negates the "likely" in the previous sentence.

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Bucer did not hesitate to disagree with Zwingli on occasion

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I added a section. It probably needs a copy-edit though. --

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A fact from this article was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s

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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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Something on what the thrological distinctions were here?

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I agree - I'm not sure I understand yet was his view was.

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Possibly say what this compromise position consisted in.

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Bucer wrote a new confession, the Confessio Tetrapolitana

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In March 1526, he published Apologia, defending his views

4516:

It's not as fun vandalising Martin Bucer as compared to

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Martin Luther: the Preservation of the Church, 1532–1546

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bringing it to a low importance. Hence articles such as

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This article appeared on Knowledge (XXG)'s Main Page as

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This is on the main page and there's no vandalism yet.

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The new paragraph on this is certainly an improvement.

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This might help elucidate his views on the Eucharist.

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Details added, although it might be a bit esoteric. --

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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Christianity/General Forum

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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page

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Will look at this later after qp gets his section up.

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Suggest giving a start date for the Schmalkaldic war

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picture at this time, and Bucer zipped about a bit.

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The life and thought of a sixteenth century reformer

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think it will be a waste of a GA reviewer's time. --

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Perhaps something on the key issues in this debate.

4330:Concise Summary of Christian Doctrine and Religion 3842:Around this time he became influenced by humanism. 2614:About how many states were in the HRE at the time? 1389:pushing for action ("threatening resignation"). -- 1381:Council, with no mention of Bucer's role in this. 4916:Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles in People 2852:collegiate church PLUS the three named churches? 2326:I added a new context section. I was looking at 4704:, and are posted here for posterity. Following 3925:. Something on the theological basis for this? 2750:Third paragraph - Link for baccalaureat degree? 4794:This message was posted before February 2018. 4391:I think explaining this would be a good idea. 1848:blessing, it was wrung out of them by Philip. 4996:Mid-importance Reformed Christianity articles 4698:The comment(s) below were originally left at 743:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Good article nominations 8: 1883:Organising the Strasbourg church (1529–1534) 43:. Even so, if you can update or improve it, 39:as one of the best articles produced by the 33:; it (or a previous version of it) has been 4951:High-importance Christian theology articles 3808:I think everything has been covered now. -- 5001:WikiProject Reformed Christianity articles 4764:I have just modified one external link on 4710: 2919:. Can we be consistent within the article? 556: 321: 233: 68: 15: 4906:Knowledge (XXG) vital articles in People 407:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Christianity 194: 4991:FA-Class Reformed Christianity articles 4637:the vast majority of English books do. 558: 323: 235: 4956:Christian theology work group articles 4901:Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles 3923:emphasised obedience to the government 1954:deep piety and exemplary moral conduct 1930: 3917:. Perhaps something on this doctrine. 2551:Ten Commandments in Roman Catholicism 1778:, Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1993, 1236:Wolfgang Capito By James M. Kittelson 302:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Biography 7: 4946:FA-Class Christian theology articles 4941:Top-importance Christianity articles 640:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Religion 604:This article is within the scope of 387:This article is within the scope of 278:This article is within the scope of 4981:Mid-importance Lutheranism articles 4966:Mid-importance Anglicanism articles 4335:I think this would be a good idea. 4287:I think this would be a good idea. 4116:This seems like a good idea to me. 4090:what they actually disagreed on. -- 4067:This seems like a good idea to me. 4019:This seems like a good idea to me. 3928:This seems like a good idea to me. 3864:This seems like a good idea to me. 3462:Wilhelm, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg 1759:is to add a footnote about this. -- 1681:Martin Luther By Michael A. Mullett 224:It is of interest to the following 2991:Protestant." or something similar. 14: 5006:WikiProject Christianity articles 4921:FA-Class vital articles in People 4876:Knowledge (XXG) featured articles 4768:. Please take a moment to review 4706:several discussions in past years 4388:What were these ambitious goals? 2487:Cologne and Electorate of Cologne 540:WikiProject Reformed Christianity 410:Template:WikiProject Christianity 5016:Top-importance Religion articles 4986:WikiProject Lutheranism articles 4971:WikiProject Anglicanism articles 4610:As I recall, the outcome of the 4380:. Add what the differences were? 1020:The following are comments from 737:See if you can find a reason to 591: 581: 560: 524: 374: 364: 325: 265: 255: 237: 204: 195: 152: 73: 52: 19: 4911:FA-Class level-5 vital articles 3228:I've added "of a reform plan". 2439:Thanks, Qp, that's far better! 660:This article has been rated as 427:This article has been rated as 4936:FA-Class Christianity articles 4931:WikiProject Biography articles 4862:14:34, 24 September 2017 (UTC) 2267:File:Schmalkaldic war 1947.jpg 765:Christianity importance rating 305:Template:WikiProject Biography 1: 5021:WikiProject Religion articles 4976:FA-Class Lutheranism articles 4961:FA-Class Anglicanism articles 4682:00:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC) 4668:19:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC) 4647:01:32, 19 December 2009 (UTC) 4630:16:50, 18 December 2009 (UTC) 4606:16:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC) 4590:14:30, 18 December 2009 (UTC) 4569:16:58, 18 December 2009 (UTC) 4551:11:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC) 4530:08:58, 18 December 2009 (UTC) 4511:00:29, 18 December 2009 (UTC) 4284:. Some idea of the contents? 3972:after some exegetical studies 643:Template:WikiProject Religion 537:This article is supported by 497:This article is supported by 473:This article is supported by 449:This article is supported by 401:and see a list of open tasks. 4891:Old requests for peer review 3522:then the translation in ()'s 2265:I am working on a map using 755:17:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC) 733:17:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC) 718:17:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC) 698:13:29, 15 January 2009 (UTC) 532:Reformed Christianity portal 290:contribute to the discussion 4926:FA-Class biography articles 4596:instead of München, etc. -- 745:and explain the situation. 5037: 5011:FA-Class Religion articles 4825:(last update: 5 June 2024) 4761:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 4701:Talk:Martin Bucer/Comments 4658:on Knowledge (XXG). ;-) -- 3804:22:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3778:21:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3755:20:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3741:17:31, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3724:21:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3691:21:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3624:21:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3594:17:07, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3577:21:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3543:13:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC) 3506:21:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3474:20:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3437:13:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC) 3404:20:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3340:20:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3308:16:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC) 3274:20:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3238:20:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3205:20:29, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3172:20:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3136:13:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC) 3121:19:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3087:19:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3054:19:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 3012:19:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 2978:19:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 2942:13:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC) 2903:19:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 2871:18:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 2771:20:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC) 2738:16:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC) 2704:16:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC) 2670:18:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC) 2567:19:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC) 2536:01:40, 23 April 2009 (UTC) 2521:01:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC) 2502:23:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC) 2475:17:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC) 2449:16:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC) 2429:01:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC) 2380:17:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC) 2341:12:23, 21 April 2009 (UTC) 2306:21:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC) 2279:19:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC) 2176:16:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC) 2162:15:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC) 2100:23:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC) 2076:06:34, 21 April 2009 (UTC) 2041:20:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC) 2000:17:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC) 1985:03:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC) 1947:14:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC) 1876:Resolving remaining issues 1809:09:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC) 1795:14:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC) 1769:11:10, 17 April 2009 (UTC) 1675:17:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1660:16:06, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1645:10:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1518:10:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1399:10:32, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1303:09:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1229:09:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1193:22:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1169:08:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1141:22:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1117:08:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1089:22:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1058:08:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 849:22:54, 23 March 2009 (UTC) 817:22:39, 23 March 2009 (UTC) 780:18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC) 683:GA nomination is too early 666:project's importance scale 433:project's importance scale 142:Featured article candidate 123:Featured article candidate 4746:15:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 4721: 2253:10:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 2234:20:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 2209:15:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 2148:22:23, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 2133:15:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1921:22:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 1858:14:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1754:14:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1738:14:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1703:00:15, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1602:14:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 1583:22:59, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 1558:13:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 1543:00:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1483:14:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 1468:22:59, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 1439:13:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 1424:00:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1366:22:59, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 1342:11:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1328:00:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1272:13:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 1258:00:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1004:22:34, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 989:20:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 974:16:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 959:15:43, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 931:13:33, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 911:10:42, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 892:08:37, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 878:22:09, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 863:21:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 659: 576: 520: 496: 472: 448: 426: 359: 250: 232: 177: 151: 71: 67: 41:Knowledge (XXG) community 4541:influences. Great work! 4471:13:16, 11 May 2009 (UTC) 4423:11:51, 11 May 2009 (UTC) 4367:06:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC) 4319:06:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC) 4271:06:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC) 4149:06:44, 11 May 2009 (UTC) 630:standards, or visit the 390:WikiProject Christianity 61:Today's featured article 4896:FA-Class vital articles 4757:External links modified 4489:18:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 4449:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 4401:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 4345:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 4297:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 4249:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 4205:15:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 4183:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 4126:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 4100:11:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 4077:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 4051:11:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 4029:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 3991:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 3961:15:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 3938:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 3896:11:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 3874:18:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 3832:Adding more on theology 3818:10:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC) 3657:10:24, 1 May 2009 (UTC) 3371:10:24, 1 May 2009 (UTC) 2917:Conciliation between... 2839:10:24, 1 May 2009 (UTC) 2805:10:24, 1 May 2009 (UTC) 2636:10:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC) 2601:10:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC) 1894:seized power in Münster 1588:would be an example of 1064:Katharina Schütz Zell: 994:improved and agreed. -- 500:WikiProject Lutheranism 476:WikiProject Anglicanism 4575:Straßburg - Strasbourg 2728:Removed the clause. -- 2166:Fine. Now copyedited. 1898: 517: 493: 469: 445: 1890: 516: 492: 468: 444: 413:Christianity articles 350:Reformed Christianity 281:WikiProject Biography 218:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 211:level-5 vital article 63:on December 18, 2009. 4806:regular verification 608:WikiProject Religion 4796:After February 2018 2549:closed my FAC too ( 2414:Sack of Rome (1527) 1032:Murner & Treger 708:things to work on. 452:theology work group 382:Christianity portal 4850:InternetArchiveBot 4801:InternetArchiveBot 4694:Assessment comment 3732:Hope this helps. 2118:Bucer and the Jews 1622:Comment from FAC: 1207:Comment from FAC: 1036:Comment from FAC: 796:Heinrich Bullinger 620:assess and improve 518: 494: 470: 446: 308:biography articles 220:content assessment 79:Article milestones 4826: 4751: 4750: 4656:Thirty Years' War 4612:Danzig/Gdańsk war 3585:HOpe this helps. 3520:Concise Summary.. 1203:Strasbourg church 794:(Methodist), and 680: 679: 676: 675: 672: 671: 646:Religion articles 634:for more details. 555: 554: 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3789: 3788: 3787: 3786: 3779: 3775: 3771: 3766: 3765: 3764: 3763: 3762: 3761: 3756: 3752: 3748: 3744: 3743: 3742: 3739: 3735: 3731: 3725: 3721: 3717: 3713: 3712: 3711: 3710: 3709: 3708: 3702: 3701: 3700: 3699: 3692: 3688: 3684: 3679: 3678: 3677: 3676: 3675: 3674: 3668: 3667: 3666: 3665: 3658: 3654: 3650: 3647:Rewritten. -- 3646: 3645: 3644: 3643: 3642: 3641: 3635: 3634: 3633: 3632: 3625: 3621: 3617: 3613: 3612: 3611: 3610: 3609: 3608: 3602: 3601: 3600:Organising - 3599: 3598: 3595: 3592: 3588: 3584: 3578: 3574: 3570: 3566: 3565: 3564: 3563: 3562: 3561: 3555: 3554: 3552: 3551: 3544: 3540: 3536: 3532: 3531: 3530: 3529: 3528: 3527: 3521: 3517: 3516: 3515: 3514: 3507: 3503: 3499: 3495: 3494: 3493: 3492: 3491: 3490: 3484: 3483: 3481: 3480: 3475: 3471: 3467: 3463: 3458: 3457: 3456: 3455: 3448: 3447: 3446: 3445: 3438: 3434: 3430: 3426: 3425: 3424: 3423: 3422: 3421: 3415: 3414: 3413: 3412: 3405: 3401: 3397: 3393: 3392: 3391: 3390: 3389: 3388: 3382: 3381: 3380: 3379: 3372: 3368: 3364: 3360: 3359: 3358: 3357: 3356: 3355: 3349: 3348: 3347: 3346: 3341: 3337: 3333: 3329: 3328: 3327: 3326: 3320: 3319: 3317: 3316: 3309: 3305: 3301: 3296: 3295: 3294: 3293: 3292: 3291: 3285: 3284: 3283: 3282: 3275: 3271: 3267: 3263: 3262: 3261: 3260: 3259: 3258: 3252: 3249: 3248: 3247: 3246: 3239: 3235: 3231: 3227: 3226: 3225: 3224: 3223: 3222: 3216: 3215: 3214: 3213: 3206: 3202: 3198: 3194: 3193: 3192: 3191: 3190: 3189: 3183: 3182: 3181: 3180: 3173: 3169: 3165: 3160: 3159: 3158: 3157: 3156: 3155: 3148: 3147: 3146:Colloquies - 3145: 3144: 3137: 3133: 3129: 3124: 3123: 3122: 3118: 3114: 3109: 3108: 3107: 3106: 3099: 3098: 3097:Regulation - 3096: 3095: 3088: 3084: 3080: 3076: 3075: 3074: 3073: 3072: 3071: 3065: 3064: 3063: 3062: 3055: 3051: 3047: 3043: 3042: 3041: 3040: 3039: 3038: 3032: 3031: 3029: 3024: 3023: 3022:Organising - 3021: 3020: 3013: 3009: 3005: 3001: 3000: 2999: 2998: 2997: 2996: 2989: 2988: 2987: 2986: 2979: 2975: 2971: 2967: 2966: 2965: 2964: 2963: 2962: 2956: 2955: 2953: 2952: 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246: 243: 240: 236: 231: 227: 221: 213: 212: 202: 198: 193: 192: 181: 176: 172: 168: 166: 160: 155: 150: 146: 144: 143: 139: 136: 132: 131: 127: 125: 124: 120: 117: 113: 112: 108: 106: 105: 101: 98: 94: 93: 89: 86: 83: 82: 76: 70: 66: 62: 58: 55: 51: 50: 46: 42: 38: 37: 32: 28: 25: 22: 18: 17: 4848: 4845: 4820:source check 4799: 4793: 4790: 4766:Martin Bucer 4763: 4760: 4752: 4733: 4697: 4625: 4620: 4578: 4564: 4559: 4539: 4507: 4500: 4497: 4479: 4433: 4413:Expanded. -- 4385: 4377: 4329: 4281: 4232: 4223: 4215: 4167: 4159: 4110: 4061: 4012: 3975: 3971: 3922: 3914: 3906: 3857: 3849: 3841: 3835: 3519: 3482:Rejecting - 2954:Competing - 2916: 2555: 2547: 2544:Archived FAC 2490: 2399: 2366: 2220: 2197: 2193: 2189: 2121: 2092: 2091: 2083: 2082: 2033: 2032: 2024: 2023: 1977: 1976: 1968: 1967: 1961: 1957: 1953: 1913: 1912: 1904: 1903: 1899: 1891: 1887: 1882: 1879: 1775: 1695: 1694: 1686: 1685: 1621: 1575: 1574: 1566: 1565: 1535: 1534: 1526: 1525: 1460: 1459: 1451: 1450: 1445: 1416: 1415: 1407: 1406: 1358: 1357: 1349: 1348: 1320: 1319: 1311: 1310: 1250: 1249: 1241: 1240: 1206: 1185: 1184: 1176: 1175: 1133: 1132: 1124: 1123: 1081: 1080: 1072: 1071: 1063: 1035: 1019: 1016:FAC comments 898: 790:(Catholic), 768: 705: 686: 661: 622:articles to 613: 606: 605: 538: 498: 474: 450: 428: 404:Christianity 395:Christianity 388: 333:Christianity 279: 226:WikiProjects 209: 179: 162: 140: 135:May 12, 2009 128:Not promoted 121: 102: 45:please do so 34: 27:Martin Bucer 26: 4660:RelHistBuff 4598:RelHistBuff 4522:RelHistBuff 4463:RelHistBuff 4415:RelHistBuff 4359:RelHistBuff 4311:RelHistBuff 4263:RelHistBuff 4197:RelHistBuff 4141:RelHistBuff 4092:RelHistBuff 4043:RelHistBuff 3953:RelHistBuff 3888:RelHistBuff 3810:RelHistBuff 3796:RelHistBuff 3714:Clarified. 3649:RelHistBuff 3535:RelHistBuff 3429:RelHistBuff 3363:RelHistBuff 3300:RelHistBuff 3128:RelHistBuff 3030:Champion - 3002:Clarified. 2934:RelHistBuff 2831:RelHistBuff 2815:Reformer - 2797:RelHistBuff 2763:RelHistBuff 2730:RelHistBuff 2696:RelHistBuff 2628:RelHistBuff 2593:RelHistBuff 2572:Comments... 2494:RelHistBuff 2333:RelHistBuff 2271:RelHistBuff 2226:RelHistBuff 2154:RelHistBuff 2140:RelHistBuff 2068:RelHistBuff 1992:RelHistBuff 1939:RelHistBuff 1801:RelHistBuff 1761:RelHistBuff 1746:RelHistBuff 1667:RelHistBuff 1637:RelHistBuff 1594:RelHistBuff 1550:RelHistBuff 1510:RelHistBuff 1475:RelHistBuff 1431:RelHistBuff 1391:RelHistBuff 1334:RelHistBuff 1295:RelHistBuff 1264:RelHistBuff 1221:RelHistBuff 1161:RelHistBuff 1109:RelHistBuff 1050:RelHistBuff 1022:User:Xandar 996:RelHistBuff 966:RelHistBuff 923:RelHistBuff 870:RelHistBuff 841:John Carter 809:RelHistBuff 788:Duns Scotus 772:John Carter 725:RelHistBuff 690:RelHistBuff 346:Lutheranism 342:Anglicanism 104:Peer review 4870:Categories 4857:Report bug 4714:Comment(s) 4494:Surprising 4225:reformers. 2611:Context - 2221:Awadewit's 1783:0800627040 739:quick-fail 169:column on 36:identified 4840:this tool 4833:this tool 4461:Added. -- 4332:. Ditto. 4309:Added. -- 4195:Added. -- 3886:Added. -- 3361:Added. -- 3318:Reform - 2879:Dialogue 2761:Added. -- 1285:and Bern. 1024:from the 947:Bullinger 828:WP:NOVELS 299:Biography 245:Biography 214:is rated 159:Main Page 4846:Cheers.— 4441:Awadewit 4393:Awadewit 4337:Awadewit 4289:Awadewit 4241:Awadewit 4175:Awadewit 4118:Awadewit 4069:Awadewit 4021:Awadewit 3983:Awadewit 3930:Awadewit 3866:Awadewit 3734:Ealdgyth 3587:Ealdgyth 3553:Exile - 3533:Done. -- 3427:Done. -- 2507:Covered 1026:FAC page 747:PSWG1920 710:PSWG1920 637:Religion 615:Religion 568:Religion 338:Theology 216:FA-class 147:Promoted 109:Reviewed 4770:my edit 4674:Ozdaren 4639:Johnbod 4582:Ozdaren 3747:Johnbod 3567:Fixed. 2577:Lead - 2513:Johnbod 2441:Johnbod 2421:Johnbod 2186:The FAC 664:on the 431:on the 161:in the 87:Process 4738:NBeale 4502:Enigma 4481:qp10qp 3770:qp10qp 3716:qp10qp 3683:qp10qp 3616:qp10qp 3569:qp10qp 3498:qp10qp 3496:Done. 3466:qp10qp 3396:qp10qp 3332:qp10qp 3266:qp10qp 3230:qp10qp 3197:qp10qp 3195:Done. 3164:qp10qp 3113:qp10qp 3101:issue) 3079:qp10qp 3046:qp10qp 3004:qp10qp 2970:qp10qp 2895:qp10qp 2863:qp10qp 2662:qp10qp 2649:Italy. 2528:qp10qp 2467:qp10qp 2372:qp10qp 2298:qp10qp 2245:qp10qp 2201:qp10qp 2168:qp10qp 2125:qp10qp 1963:cause. 1960:" ..." 1850:qp10qp 1787:qp10qp 1730:qp10qp 1652:qp10qp 1627:Hesse. 1500:views. 981:NBeale 951:NBeale 903:qp10qp 884:NBeale 855:NBeale 222:scale. 90:Result 4439:Yep. 2561:Heise 2558:Nancy 2367:after 1935:WP:OR 1590:WP:OR 203:This 29:is a 4742:talk 4678:talk 4664:talk 4643:talk 4602:talk 4586:talk 4543:Agne 4526:talk 4520:. -- 4485:talk 4467:talk 4445:talk 4419:talk 4397:talk 4363:talk 4341:talk 4315:talk 4293:talk 4267:talk 4245:talk 4201:talk 4179:talk 4145:talk 4122:talk 4096:talk 4073:talk 4047:talk 4025:talk 3987:talk 3974:and 3957:talk 3934:talk 3892:talk 3870:talk 3814:talk 3800:talk 3774:talk 3751:talk 3738:Talk 3720:talk 3687:talk 3653:talk 3620:talk 3591:Talk 3573:talk 3539:talk 3502:talk 3470:talk 3433:talk 3400:talk 3367:talk 3336:talk 3304:talk 3270:talk 3234:talk 3201:talk 3168:talk 3132:talk 3117:talk 3083:talk 3050:talk 3008:talk 2974:talk 2938:talk 2899:talk 2867:talk 2835:talk 2801:talk 2767:talk 2734:talk 2700:talk 2666:talk 2632:talk 2597:talk 2532:talk 2517:talk 2509:here 2498:talk 2471:talk 2445:talk 2425:talk 2376:talk 2337:talk 2302:talk 2275:talk 2249:talk 2230:talk 2205:talk 2172:talk 2158:talk 2144:talk 2129:talk 2072:talk 1996:talk 1943:talk 1854:talk 1805:talk 1791:talk 1780:ISBN 1765:talk 1750:talk 1734:talk 1671:talk 1656:talk 1641:talk 1598:talk 1554:talk 1514:talk 1479:talk 1435:talk 1395:talk 1338:talk 1299:talk 1268:talk 1225:talk 1165:talk 1113:talk 1054:talk 1000:talk 985:talk 970:talk 955:talk 927:talk 907:talk 888:talk 874:talk 859:talk 845:talk 813:talk 776:talk 751:talk 729:talk 714:talk 706:last 694:talk 626:and 624:good 288:and 84:Date 4814:RfC 4784:to 4536:Wow 2094:dar 2085:Xan 2035:dar 2026:Xan 1979:dar 1970:Xan 1915:dar 1906:Xan 1697:dar 1688:Xan 1577:dar 1568:Xan 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