455:. Sure, there are tooltips, but not everyone knows about or can use those, and as said in the discussion you mention it may not be clear even what kind of instrument "trumpet" refers to. Listing the full names would be unwieldy, as would be explaining how the instrumentation varies over the course of the entire mass (as would be necessary for "instrumentation" to have much meaning). It's much clearer and more accessible to explain instrumentation in the article itself. After all, you suggested that we should
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513:", - I would think that people reading on a composition would get "instruments" as "musical instruments", and those who know more get the details. Please note, that this is not the article on the Mass in B minor, but its structure, addressing those who want to know the bit more. It's a work in progress. --
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to restore information that would help interested readers. The abbreviations are standard for publishing, well known, each with a link to what it stands for, and a link to a table of all of them. Why should knowledge be limited to the level of those who wouldn't bother to look up what an abbr means? --
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I will ask people what to do to make the two templates more similar, - it's desirable to have the same parameter names for scoring, even if their representation and links are different. It is desirable to overwrite the BWV number by a title in the case of a short title such as this one. Some "titles"
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Hello Gerda! You had previously argued that infoboxes should be for those who know nothing about the topic. It would be very unlikely for such people to know anything about standards in music publishing. They would thus be very confused, even intimidated, to see "3Tr Ti Co 2Ft, 2Ob 2Oa 2Fg 2Vl Va Bc"
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As discussed on
Classical music (when the template was designed and again now), each individual instrument is important, for example the horn for exactly one aria. "Instruments" appear at the very end of the box, I don't understand how anybody who read so far would be "intimidated". Please consider
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This is a comprehensive article on the structure of the Bach b minor mass--an article topic which is both ambitious to conceive and difficult to address--especially because it concerns an arduous musical work that is huge and unforgiving for the unprepared. User:Gerda Arendt is to be commended for
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I agree with
Michael's comments and observations on placement, and add that I err on the side of providing more information and direction through caption, even if redundant. Sometimes it might not be self-explanatory...especially for the regrettable "readers" who only look at the pictures. Also,
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I slept over this - not well - and arrived at the following thought: the abbreviations are internationally understood, therefore I would like to have them visible at least "also", for those who are familiar with "Fg" but don't know what a bassoon is, as a little service - needing only a few extra
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They might well be perfectly valid reasons in a different article. However, a) the compositions infobox does include a unique catalogue number, and the title in this case is not in German; b) the Bach box here did not use those parameters, and this is neither a cantata nor a motet; c) again, the
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I notice a lot of content is based on (putatively) your interpretation directly from score reading and analysis...as a fellow musician and classical music buff, it's rather obvious to me what it means when you write "Whenever the word "mortuorum" appears, the voices sing long low notes, whereas
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No, your explanation seems consistent with my understanding. As to
Messiah, having no complaints doesn't mean no one was confused - the people most likely not to be able to understand the tooltips are also most likely not to be able to post on talk. Or maybe people just ignored the infobox ;-)
1635:, - would that help? - As the numbering of movements and measures will be different in different editions, pointing at a specific one which is accessible online might be a good idea. However, it shows only the vocal parts and the continuo, so can't be applied to matters of scoring. --
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Are you suggesting that confused readers who just want an overview should be made to read a whole other article on a different topic just to understand this stream of letters? That seems a bit counterproductive when the infobox is, as you have previously argued, meant to be a
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It could be split in two, but I don't think it would really help if you had to make the connections from one to the other by scrolling up and down instead of sideways. I just moved the images out to help. I will try to place the comments to the text section. The comparable
1601:). This isn't like a matter of a corresponding translation of a passage for an article, the interpretative nature of the music theory goes a little beyond that balance--almost to the point of putting out an expert opinion. Could you convince me otherwise?--
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I could say more specifically that the low notes for "mortuorum" are for example in the alto in measures 133 and 134, the upward triads in the tenor in 134, simultaneously, on p. 181, - but would it help? No interpretation, just observation.
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That's a good question. :) It's not an easy think like saying "white castle hamburger patty, bun, onions" or "painting of a ugly man in a red shirt". Let me think about that and get back to you. Or maybe we'll ask at the WP:ALT talk page.
1412:. The protestant faiths in the United States use "I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sin" more frequently than "I confess one baptism for the remission of sin" (which some Anglo-Catholics adhere to, as well as some Baptists).--
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I concur. While I don't think that instrumentation details are the most useful part for a composition's infobox (if such a box is to be used at all), I can't see how their presence would diminish a reader's encounter with this page. --
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I think they all should be kept. Some provide useful further information, but even if they don't (admittedly, the majority), there's no guarantee that the images will always show up next to their respective description. --
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For what it's worth, the table in the "Structure" section causes the article to stretch beyond my computer screen, even though mine is not particularly small. Is there some way to make the table more flexible?
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Surely it would be more helpful for the international community to read an article in their own language, rather than trying to decode what our words are? Besides, the abbreviations are not even close to being
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Thank you! So far this is the article I am most proud of, dear to my heart for more than one reason. During our recent concert, I had a good view of Bach's score because the continuo player used it (
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Please cease your personal attacks, Nikki. You know better than this. Gerda seeks accuracy and completeness, she has shown a willingness to compromise. I suggest you look at your own
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You misunderstood. I give those who know the abbreviations (without explanation) a short way to the scoring, and offer a longer way to the others, - you cut the short way. Please read
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I tend to think that for most of the images of the incipits, the caption seems redundant or self-explanatory. What do you think of having it for the first but drop for the others? --
1585:"resurrectionem" is illustrated in triad motifs leading upwards" which cites back to pp. 180–181 in the score. However, I'm a little curious and cautious about the balance between
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If they ignored it, it could be as I prefer, no? - So much talk about people wanting articles their way, without an infobox, or with a collapsed one. I like it open and detailed, --
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I doubt I would have done it like this myself, but the abbreviations are likely to be known & understood by most people reading a relatively detailed article like this.
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while it's not GA-required but knowing you always look ahead to FAC where the question will be asked: have you thought about adding "|alt=" parameters to the images, per
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It is important to note
Johnbod's point that the article itself is of primary interest to people who already are interested in details of a musical piece, this isn't
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which is "confess" or "acknowledge"...speaking as a former seminarian, there is a big difference...and it has its roots in a long discourse on the word by
Augustine.
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Not for that the same music is used, but whether there is a source that it was Bach's intent to connect the two thoughts of "Thanking" and "asking" for peace.--
477:: Trying to understand, but unconvinced, sorry. - Did you see where the link on "Scoring" takes you? Your quote above is a bit misleading, it said "instruments 3
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In German it's "bekennen", - "acknowledge" seems to weak, will take "confess" then. (I think I took "profess" from a source but don't remember from where.) --
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A citation for the fact that the same music "connects" "Dona nobis pacem" (Give us peace) and "Gratias agimus tibi" (We give you thanks")? Other wording?
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This is the point that
Augustine makes...when we "confess" we "acknowledge" the depth of our sin. It's the same situation in various translations of the
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Excellent well-written
English prose by a native German speaker. It is compelling and addresses the work with a proper balance of concision and depth.
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The parts Kyrie, Gloria and Credo are all designed with choral sections as the outer movements, framing an intimate center of theological significance
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mixolydian was in a comment until someone wanted the table smaller, - I understand it more as the mode of the cantus firmus than of Bach's work.
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The article, created as "Mass in B minor structure" was moved to "Description of the Mass in B minor", which leaves the links above broken. --
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I may have a language problem, "confess" and "acknowledge" seem very different, and I would not "confess one baptism", or would I? Learning.
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This infobox was replaced by a less specific one. Needless to say, I designed both the Bach infobox and the article and prefer it. --
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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I had some doubts concerning a theoretical question regarding OR, but the nominator has assuaged me of them with a cogent argument.
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known. I suppose if you insisted you could have something like "bassoon (Fg)" in the article text, but that does seem a bit silly.
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Er, what? The statement you're replying to made no accusations or personal attacks. Not to mention it was almost two months ago...
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No title in the header because the same some 200 would look extremely long - and German, - this is the
English Knowledge (XXG)Â ;)
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in "Structure" - since "mixolydian" is mentioned, should the column be relabeled "key/mode" since modes technically aren't keys?
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Three parameters for text sources, because some 200 of his works (cantatas and motets) require distinction of different sources
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Bach's intent is not mentioned, - we simply see that he used the same music for both thoughts, - how can that be worded? --
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a four-part choir. Source Rathey points out the significance for each center piece. The sentence summarizes what follows.
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1460:"Ich bekenne die eine Taufe", - "beichten" is an act, exclusively used for confession of sins and asking forgiveness, --
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Is this sentence someone else's estimation (thus, needing a source), or is it your summation of the previous statements?
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the breadth of musical knowledge she brings to this article and for the depth of research which augments its content.
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If they ignored it, then surely it would make more sense not to have one at all? I know you want things your way.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Thanks, helped. I didn't think of FAC yet, but you gave me an idea ;) - what would I say as alt for incipits? --
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probably on opening movement of the secular cantata Es lebe der König, der Vater im Lande, BWV Anh11, of 1732.
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I think that IF we have a separate template for Bach, we should use it for all his works, for consistency. On
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Those are perfectly valid reasons; the various infobox designs can be refined as they are put into use.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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Those may be good reasons to use the Bach template instead of the general compositions template for the
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to give the explanation about the instrumentation of the mass in this article's text, where it belongs.
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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is larger but shows not as many details such as where brass plays and year of base for parody. --
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Congratulations on preparing an excellent article on a difficult and quite demanding subject.
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Article contains several images that are informative, illustrative, and appropriately tagged.
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for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the
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http://www.arthurwenk.ca/J.S.%20Bach%20and%20the%20Mystery%20of%20the%20B%20Minor%20Mass.pdf
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https://web.archive.org/web/20160303230137/http://www.asochorus.org/BMM_Credo-Essay_2013.pdf
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Article seems stable to me. I do not see any evidence of edit wars or content disputes.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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I would try "Notes of the first sung music in the movement xyz", or "Music of ...", --
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Oh, you are right, I do apologize for not checking timestamp. Mea culpa on that one!
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Check fn.4 - On a quick glance, I there is a stray "|ref=" sticking out in the text.
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in only one movement, for a specific meaning, trumpets in others, with a meaning, --
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Article addresses sufficiently the topics major aspects with a keen, expert focus.
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has a similar list of instruments, the article received more than 2000 views when
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A. Prose is clear and concise, without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:
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By quoting
Gratias, Bach connects asking for peace to thanks and praise to God.
2353:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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This is not "a composition", but one in which Bach especially asked for a
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reworked music from more than three decades earlier for the central piece
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should not be capital, such as this one, I learned that today, thank you
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It has planned features the other one should not have, such as a link to
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here and cease accusing others of what you yourself appear to be doing.
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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
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was TFA, nobody made a comment about being confused or mystified, --
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in an overview - if you don't know what those mean, it looks like
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An appropriate reference section per MOS and related guidelines.
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Mere observation: the outer movements are choral, the center in
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I'm surprised in the German creed that "beichten" isn't used.--
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The article is exceptionally well-sourced to reliable sources.
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WikiProject Classical music compositions task force articles
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I do not see any issues with the GA-relevant MOS policies.
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713:characters - to the international community. --
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2061:to the topic, and have
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307:Compositions task force
123:column on 23 May 2013 (
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186:This article is rated
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1492:-- should be sourced.
1488:In "No. 4 Osanna..."
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190:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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68:good article criteria
2355:regular verification
1908:No original research
86:: October 7, 2013. (
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2345:After February 2018
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2186:Gerda Arendt
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2142:
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2080:
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1790:for criteria
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1741:
1723:ColonelHenry
1706:Gerda Arendt
1692:ColonelHenry
1657:Gerda Arendt
1652:
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1619:Gerda Arendt
1603:ColonelHenry
1597:(especially
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1558:Gerda Arendt
1540:ColonelHenry
1527:Gerda Arendt
1515:
1501:Gerda Arendt
1489:
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1444:ColonelHenry
1428:Gerda Arendt
1414:ColonelHenry
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1399:Gerda Arendt
1387:
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1347:Gerda Arendt
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1299:ColonelHenry
1296:
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1275:
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1250:Instructions
1176:Gerda Arendt
1126:this article
1125:
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1108:Gerda Arendt
1049:Gerda Arendt
1046:
979:Instrumental
858:
782:Gerda Arendt
777:
730:
715:Gerda Arendt
711:
599:Gerda Arendt
570:Gerda Arendt
529:
515:Gerda Arendt
453:gobbledygook
437:Gerda Arendt
433:
408:
368:
305:
272:project page
257:
222:Compositions
198:WikiProjects
142:
138:
131:Did you know
130:
120:Did you know
118:
110:
109:A fact from
81:
72:please do so
60:
59:
55:
34:
26:
2032:with their
1595:WP:SYNTHNOT
1341:a duet, in
1264:transcluded
731:universally
125:check views
31:peer review
29:received a
2419:Categories
2406:Report bug
2286:Report bug
2113:bottom pic
1872:A. Has an
1866:verifiable
1217:Authorship
1203:GA toolbox
1156:Nikkimaria
1130:Nikkimaria
1064:Nikkimaria
843:J. S. Bach
735:Nikkimaria
648:Nikkimaria
613:Nikkimaria
585:Nikkimaria
538:Nikkimaria
461:Nikkimaria
268:guidelines
139:Crucifixus
66:under the
2389:this tool
2382:this tool
2269:this tool
2262:this tool
2001:edit wars
1388:confiteor
1384:profiteor
1276:Reviewer:
1240:Templates
1231:Reviewing
1196:GA Review
1145:Montanabw
966:2 choirs
934:Movements
895:based on
801:Montanabw
671:Montanabw
638:Montanabw
133:... that
115:Main Page
2395:Cheers.—
2275:Cheers.—
2059:relevant
2020:contain
2018:Does it
1788:WP:WIAGA
1633:this pdf
1289:contribs
1245:Criteria
1122:cantatas
1021:bassoons
987:trumpets
915:? – 1749
903:Composed
897:BWV 232a
188:GA-class
76:reassess
36:archived
2309:my edit
2212:my edit
2081:Overall
2003:, etc:
1971:neutral
1951:Focused
1838:fiction
1410:Te Deum
1027:violins
992:timpani
926:Leipzig
892:Related
876:B minor
749:Johnbod
566:Messiah
534:simpler
411:on the
384:Germany
375:Germany
331:Germany
117:in the
2036:, and
2030:tagged
2022:images
1994:stable
1992:Is it
1968:Is it
1925:Is it
1859:Is it
1840:, and
1830:layout
1800:Is it
1688:WP:ALT
1339:Gloria
948:solo:
194:scale.
83:Review
2180:Moved
2115:). --
1842:lists
1499:done
1343:Credo
1335:Kyrie
1266:from
1106:;) --
1062:Why?
1032:viola
1009:oboes
942:Vocal
882:Genre
778:corno
530:quick
2190:talk
2170:talk
2150:talk
2121:talk
1863:and
1826:lead
1760:talk
1727:talk
1710:talk
1696:talk
1690:? --
1677:talk
1661:talk
1641:talk
1623:talk
1607:talk
1589:and
1562:talk
1544:talk
1531:talk
1505:talk
1466:talk
1448:talk
1432:talk
1418:talk
1403:talk
1373:talk
1351:talk
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1932:A.
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