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series. It was only during Teddy Mayer's tenure as McLaren boss that they streamlined. It's important to describe, where appropriate, that
Formula One teams have pursued many strands of motorsport. Brabham was a major constructor of racing cars. Ferrari (and Alfa Romeo and Sauber and Audi and Ligier) have long history with sports car racing. Toyota F1 was created from the Toyota Team Europe World Rally team. Zakspeed came from Touring Cars. Scuderia Italia went to GT racing when they could no longer race in F1. Most F1 teams start in lower Formula. Red Bull's history began as Paul Stewart's Formula 3000 team.
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Racing itself does much more than just F1. There's now an IndyCar team, an
Formula E team, and an Extreme E team. This article has grown very large and very complex as it tries to cover all those topics in depth. I would propose using this article to cover only McLaren Racing as a company, then breaking out separate articles for McLaren F1 Team, McLaren Formula E Team, and McLaren Extreme E. Or perhaps this article could just be the F1 team, as that remains the most notable part, and we create a separate article for McLaren Racing. Any thoughts?
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proposed splitting the articles in the way I outlined above because I believe it would align with readers' expectations: if they want to read about F1, they go to the F1 team article, or the IndyCar team article for that, or the McLaren Racing article if they want to know about the company specifically, etc. Somebody who wants only to read about McLaren F1 Team is not going to have a great experience if we persist with a massive, all-encompassing article, but with certain F1 stats split off elsewhere. That doesn't make any sense to me.
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information in one place. The counterpoint is that the solution to this article being too large is to change nothing about it but cut out a bunch of data and make new articles to contain that. That solves none of the problems I see and creates new ones in terms of people now having to go to multiple articles in order to get information that previously would've been in one place.
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1117:"This is how we've always done it" is in no way an explanation of how it improves the reader's experience. I was asking how it improves the reader's experience by making them go to multiple pages for the information they want, and I gave an explicit example of how it makes my experience worse as a reader.
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The claim that most of our readers are here to sit down and read the full history of McLaren Racing and all its entities, without caring about any data or any recent news, or without intending to research only one of those teams specifically, is 100% completely detached from how I see people use wiki
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Keep this page for the F1 team specifically, both because it's the most notable "McLaren," and because of your point about all the existing links. I agree that it's not something that should dictate what we do, but I still think we should consider it, especially since it's also another example of how
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McLaren has almost always had more than one racing team. They built cars for lower
Formula and became famous originally for their monster Can-Am sportscars. Bruce McLaren was always keen to have a larger presence in America as well as his home country and nearest neighbour for stuff like the Tasman
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I think the article is getting unwieldy (the total article size is currently 217kb), but I'm not sure about the best way to split it. One option is as you have described above. Another option would be to split out just the "Formula One" bits (the "Racing history: Formula One", "Sponsorship, naming,
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You are absolutely correct. I often forget about this feature or rather about how to use it properly (as I don't edit stuff of
Knowledge (XXG) nearly as often as I used to be). I was actually looking for ways to message that given user directly (as I know talk pages exist for users), but then opted
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General purpose encyclopedias absolutely do include tables of data, and our audience absolutely is people who want to see (among other things) tables of race results. Otherwise...we wouldn't have tables of race results, and they wouldn't get a lot of traffic. But they do! The claim that people are
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I already regret bringing this up. Splitting out all the stats into separate articles is something I could not oppose more strongly, it just makes the process of finding information more complex and convoluted. I don't believe it aligns with how people read wiki and how they expect wiki to work. I
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For a long time, if you looked up "McLaren," you almost certainly meant the F1 team. Thus it made sense for the McLaren article to focus specifically on the F1 team, not the McLaren Group or McLaren
Automotive. Today, not only is McLaren Automotive much more notable than it once was, but McLaren
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I didn't want to waste everyone's time by firing back on every detail raised. Because arguing the point makes no difference. You know absolutely what I was saying and some of your responses don't hold water. But is there any point in pointing it out? It's not going to change your mind is it? --
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I'm literally opposing the suggestion of creating new articles based solely on data tables. I'm saying the articles should be aligned with specific topics. If you want to read about McLaren's F1 team, you should be able to go to an article specifically for that and have all/most of the relevant
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We're not talking about speaking, we're talking about reading, and people absolutely do read data from tables just as easily as they read prose. In some cases more easily. This is why you can look up just about any match summary from any sport and find both a story of what happened in the match
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Tables are a way of presenting information in rows and columns. They can be useful for a variety of content presentations on
Knowledge (XXG), but should be used only when appropriate; sometimes the information in a table may be better presented as prose paragraphs or as an embedded
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If you find this a cause for regret than you should be remind of some of the basics of wikipedia. If you can write something in a sentence, then do that. Never present a table as an alternative to text. Data is an addendum to the article, not the article itself. --
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Knowledge (XXG) is first and foremost a general purpose encyclopedia, it's audience is not people who are looking at tables of race results. It's audience is people looking to read the story of a motor racing team, not in infodump of what they have done in only one
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Maybe the exhaustive stats and tables should be broken into seperate articles rather than telling the story of racing teams in chunks of seperate articles. You can't accurately tell the story of motor racing teams by concentrating on only one of their categories.
1056:- one of my absolute least favorite things about reading wiki is when I go to an actor's article to look through their filmography and then find it's been offloaded to a second article. I do not see how this improves the reader's experience in the least.
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in real life. I see people ask "How many races did
Verstappen win last year?" and open up Knowledge (XXG). I see people ask "Who is that actress? Was she in Columbo?" and open up Knowledge (XXG). Knowledge (XXG) is an encyclopedia, and encyclopedias are
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are hallmarks of the whole wikiproject, to be honest. We're not very centralized and attract a lot of single-interest editors who don't realize that we're trying to write to a broader audience and end up with a lot of
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detail. I've long felt that some sort of merging of the various subprojects that cover F1, NASCAR, and other forms of auto racing should be done. I agree that we should be splitting the results tables out, ala
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You've gone out of your way to twist my words and/or take them the wrong way, so I'm going to give you moment to reframe rather than to pointlessly restate that same things in simpler language. --
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article. This, to me, is a fairly intuitive way to enable better coverage of McLaren on
Knowledge (XXG). It separates the different series in what I believe is a sensible way, while keeping the
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One of the reasons the article is so unwieldy is the ever-increasing amount of detail. Compare the detail for the 2023 season, which is barely half-way through, with the earlier years.
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too. That means that designing wiki to allow people to quickly and easily find the information they're looking for is critically important, and we've completely lost sight of that.
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It improves the readers experience because wikipedia's approach has always been to prioritise prose over raw data. People don't speak in tables, they speak in sentences. From
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Could you please use the talk page to "reply" to another editor? That is what it is for, and making pointless edits to the article to do so is disruptive (see also
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This is a blatantly false and absolutely unacceptable accusation that I would not expect from a long-time editor. I responded to exactly what you said.
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Also, where do the Can-Am history and current sports car programs fit in? McLaren is a large organization; I'm not sure a split is needed here. ―
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Well we both seem to be somewhat indecisive folks regarding how to split this article, so I'll just write down an idea and see how it sounds:
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Knowledge (XXG) is first and foremost a general purpose encyclopedia, it's audience is not people who are looking at tables of race results.
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It's audience is people looking to read the story of a motor racing team, not in infodump of what they have done in only one championship.
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to "reply" via an edit to be more specific about that given page which I understand wasn't an ideal solution. Consider this my apology.
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at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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has its scope purely on the entity formerly known as
Schmidt Peterson Motorsports. It does not have any coverage of McLaren's
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to become a disambiguation page. One factor to consider is the existing links. Most F1-related instances of "McLaren" link to
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Create a separate article for McLaren Racing as a company, and use that for all the corporate details and ownership stuff.
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It improves the readers experience because wikipedia's approach has always been to prioritise prose over raw data.
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I think the article is clearly a mess. It's confusing to try and navigate and does a poor job of describing
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between
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exploits prior to 2020 and at present should not be considered a child article to this one.
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ought to be about the F1 team. Can-Am and American series can be covered in the
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I'm not proposing the latter so I have no clue what this in response to.
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and livery" and "Formula One results" sections) into a separate article (
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article about the primary topic - the historic and well-known F1 team.
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a table filled with data about the match. They go hand in hand.
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And obviously we already have an article for the IndyCar team
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Data is an addendum to the article, not the article itself.
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That sounds good to me. I've advertised this discussion at
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only here to read written prose is completely baseless.
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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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251:Formula One
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43:renominated
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1081:list.
938:: -->
922:WP:F1
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