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however similar with ethanol and can generally be solved by carefully selecting the right construction materials, setting up standards for fuel quality and selecting te right oil and fuel additives. Aluminium, as an example can be protected from methanols corrosive effects by anodizing. Methanols hydrophilic nature is mainly a problem when using methanol-gasoline blends. When using pure methanol, some water content is't an issue. Permeability is also a problem for gasoline-methanol blends, specifically when using low methanol blends. With high methanol blends this isn't an issue. All this is also not theories, but rather well documented facts. That liquids can be easier to handle, and especially transport is also well known and not only a theory.
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the two articles separate, as they are. To use another fuel as an example, hydrogen as a fuel is now used in the space shuttle, but nobody cares if it comes from fossil fuels (which it does) because it is used in the space shuttle for it's extreme energy/weight ratio. None of this has any relevance to hydrogen fuels in a hydrogen economy, where hydrogen is used not because of its weight/energy ratio, but because it causes less pollution at the end use point. So two separate articles are needed, because the uses of hydrogen as a fuel have completely different objects, and there are very many difficulties and arguments in each, which have nothing to do with the other, for that reason. Same with methanol.
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991:, we need to ensure that we do not presuppose anything. The Knowledge (XXG), as you linked to, is full of articles discussing the debate. I have never seen a WP article with a FAQ, so thanks for the link. YOu are now providing evidence that I was scrounging up. To continue the theme of debate on this talk page, I would offer this piece of evidence that demonstrates that the IPCC's position and models and consensus is not without debate in the climatology community. See
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methanol is toxic is like stating that strychnine is toxic: the hazard is there, intrinsic to the substance, though the dose may not be enough to induce any health effects (so you don't die from the volatilized strychnine sitting on a shelf across the room). Exposure studies and the developmental health literature has recently been synthesized by a panel of the
National Toxicology Program, a part of the National Institute for Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS),
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article on methanol discusses only the present ways to produce methanol from fossil fuels (mostly natural gas) going through syn-gas. This way of producing methanol is only discussed shortly in the methanol economy article to avoid redundancy. It seems to me that other alternative methanol production methods not used nowadays have more relevance in the article on methanol economy as they are a central point of the methanol economy.
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doses, which may be experienced under accidental exposure conditions. It's worth doing a formal risk assessment of MeOH as a fuel, and compare those risks to the benefits. Only then can the relative costs and benefits be fully elucidated, under some uncertainty. The current text appears to imply that there is some controversy over MeOH toxicity. --
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also theoretical as it relies on the use of those materials. And the final theoretical disadvantage is the underground leakage aspect. All else are confirmed problems/disadvantages and should be listed as such. To do otherwise gives the false impression that there are no known problems/disadvantages, only theorized ones.
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The
Methanol car needs 2800 kg more wood, but has a simple engine and a simple tank. The energy to produce Methanol from water and wood is about the same as for making hydrogen, liquification, compression into the tank. But 2800 kg more wood are a bargain compared to the fuel cells, the high pressure
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It's well known that methanol contain insoluble contaminants such as halide ions which has a great effect on corrosivity, while insoluble contaminants may cause clogging. Acidic combustion products may also cause corrosive wear on certain engine components, this is also well known. These problems are
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disadvantages. The energy density is a theoretical disadvantage because for it to be a disadvantage the net energy extracted would have to be lower. The liquid vs. gas aspect is also theoretical as in some cases liquids are easier to manage than gases. The effect on plastics regarding permeability is
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A highly irresponsible, non-evidentiary statement is made with regards to methanol's toxicity: "methanol is toxic (this risk has been hugely overstated; methanol poisoning invariably results from drinking illegal liquor; methanol volatilizes and biodegrades rapidly in the environment.)" Stating that
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The work of the IPCC is backed by the worldwide scientific community. A joint statement of support was issued in May 2001 by the science academies of
Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, the Caribbean, China, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Malaysia, New Zealand, Sweden and the UK.
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it's produced. One could argue for merging the methanol fuel article into methanol economy (since it's really a subsection of that), but this would not be fair, either, as much of the interest in methanol as a fuel doesn't really address methanol source, and doesn't need to. So, it's better to leave
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I believe it is arrogant of Mr. Killian to assume that he can remove a portion of the
Knowledge (XXG) that indicates that there is a debate, even if the debate is settled in his mind. It may be settled in a lot of people's minds, but the debate is no less real. If there were a statement about there
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Well, what on earth does that have to do with the reversion, the debate, or anything? (Greenhouse gas) ≠(climate change) CO2 is a greenhouse gas, but that was not the crux of the reversion... The insinuation that (Greenhouse gas emissions) = (climate change) is a fallacy in logic, and the debate
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I have changed this part of the article for the following reasons. In the book on "The
Methanol Economy" by George Olah etc. on page 243 Olah mentions selective membranes only with relation to extraction from exhaust gases from fossil fuel plants. He then mentions alkali absorbents such as KOH as
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entry, since the current article discusses "advantages and disadvantages" to an MeOH economy, an assessment of the relative benefits and costs of MeOH should be fully discussed. MeOH has known neurological (optic nerve) and developmental (e.g. neural tube closure) associations at relatively high
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I vote "no", since the whole point of a methanol economy is not just to use it as a fuel, but to make it in "green" ways, first. Thus, methanol can substitute for hydrogen in all of hydrogen's suggested uses (save for a few odd aerospace uses). The methanol (fuel) article only cares about use of
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who disagree with the mainstream scientific consensus on the matter, it is misleading to portray this in the article as a lack of scientific consensus. It's not a matter of negating or concealing debate, but of accurately portraying what debate there is, and not misrepresenting it. According to
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is the quote that I considered to have more consensus for a brief snippet of discussion on CO2's effect on the climate. I guess you now want a reference that there is a debate on whether CO2 emissions has had an affect on climate? Note well, the debate is not whether an arbitrary amount of CO2
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Methanol production is a very important part of the methanol economy. Before using methanol as a fuel, energy storage media or raw material in an economy based on methanol it is important to know where we are going to get the methanol from in the present and more importantly in the future. The
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I don't understand the reasoning for de-emphasizing the specific toxic endpoints associated with methanol exposure in the current (20 May 2006) version of the story, relative to the prior version. While a fuller discussion of the toxicity of methanol is available on the
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The article is pitching methanol economy as some sort of idealized goal. The slant partially defeats whatever goals advocates might have in mind. Why not just describe the components of a methanol economy without the explicit and implicit judgements?
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article, where they are used for a very similar statement. This version also makes it clearer that the majority of the debate is among politicians, not scientists, while still mentioning the scientific dissent. Any objections to this wording?
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feasible ways of extracting from the atmosphere. He also mentions that KOH is especially suitable for electrolytic recovery of carbon dioxide. I do not include this fact in the article, in order to avoid excessive detail
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being a consensus, then I believe there is a consensus (although that might touch off a debate). But to negate the debate or to conceal the debate is not in the best interest of the
Knowledge (XXG).
995:. And so the wording you proposed sounds reasonable. I liked the adjectives "hot" and "heated," but not to invent something and make my invention sound mean, ugly - or to promote some absurd
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With
Ethanol getting more and more news coverage, I think this article should have a section discussing the similarities and differences between using Ethanol vs using Methanol as a fuel. --
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between whether CO2 from human emissions is causing climate change is a very hot debate. So the reversion will continue. There is a legitimate debate. There are people who debate:
842:, Blacklisted URL: "wiki.idebate.org/index.php/Debate:Global_warming,_human-caused%3F" (Wiki Debate on global warming). That last link is supposed to be pretty comprehensive, but
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A high percentages of disadvantages listed are not in fact theoretical, but known. This to me means there needs to be two sections on disadvantages: known and theoretical.
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It stated: “We recognize the IPCC as the world’s most reliable source of information on climate change and its causes, and we endorse its method of achieving consensus.”
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The use of methane or another fossil fuel for the production of methanol using all the above mentioned synthetic routes has a potential drawback: the emission of the
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As I started to calculate profitability of the different range extenders in different scenarios, there was never a profitability of the hydrogen fuel cell system.
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1027:. Anyway, I'm glad we agree on this wording, and I'll add it into the article now. While I still disagree with you on the warming effect of human-emitted CO
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This adds back the references I added earlier, since this section of the article is rather lacking in references, and adds two more taken directly from the
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requires that we not claim there is a scientific debate where there is none. Could anyone disagreeing with this change please explain their reasoning here?
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I made Ocober 2007 an interview with a developer in a reputated resarch institute: Methanol engine with generator can reach over 40% electric efficiency.
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1031:, I don't see the need to continue debating on this article's talk page now that we've resolved the content issue; I guess we can just agree to disagree.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15995730&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum
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the change. I have changed it back and added sources to back up the fact that carbon dioxide is a known greenhouse gas. It seems to me that keeping a
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is available cheap and in huge quantity, energy is no problem, the only problem is easy to carry energy for mobile usage. So let's take biomass as
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941:. While the vast majority of scientists working on climate change agree with this conclusion, its validity and the degree to which CO
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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I think it is great you know how to pop in all of those nice links to the articles and all, but did you really look at the diff?
452:. The hydrophilic nature of methanol is also known, not theorized. In fact, looking at the list, the vast majority of these are
911:(a featured article). Since this has already been discussed extensively there, we should go with the consensus established at
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The same document addresses the issue of the relatively few scientists who do not think that climate change is a problem.
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Why, what do you know, I found a scientist or 2 who seems to indicate that there is a debate. Try some of these links...
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Climate Change 2007: The
Physical Science Basis. Contribution of Working Group I to the Fourth Assessment Report of the
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I made that edit because that part of the article seemed to imply that carbon dioxide isn't a greenhouse gas, or that CO
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Whether climate changes in the last 200 years are caused by emissions of greenhouse gases, the sun, or some other source
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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that I am trying to amplify, but because it seems to me that both sides are quite, um, affected by the debate.
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source only, energy for all the chemical process. 1kg dry wood can in such a way deliver 1,65 litre
Methanol.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20070707042155/http://www.methanol.org/pdfFrame.cfm?pdf=Methanol_humantox_rev.pdf
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in order to remain consistent between articles. Therefore, I propose the following wording for this article:
790:"I have changed it back and added sources to back up the fact that carbon dioxide is a known greenhouse gas."
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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However, the overwhelming majority of scientists who work on climate change agree on the main points
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articles on environment-related topics, as well as to ensure that environment articles are properly
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How to transport hydrogen more economic? Let's take a carbon atom to carry 4 hydrogen atoms. But
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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http://cri.is/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14&Itemid=8&lang=en
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emissions are a major cause of climate change is a different matter entirely. While there are
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Now, you somehow confused the statement in question, quoted above, by somehow saying this:
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The debate is whether CO2 emissions from human sources have had an effect on the climate.
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I developt my ideas aboout the Methanol economy independent. It started as I visited the
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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For this article, I think we should phrase it in a way similar to the lead section of
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Yes, that looks a lot better. While there is no need for any details or citations in
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Whether the increased amount of CO2 in the environment is good or bad or indifferent
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This article should be about methanol economy and not about methanol production
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effect the climate of the earth. (Venus, duh, everyone knows all about Venus.)
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3 cars, 3 different range extenders with gasoline, diesel and hydrogen.
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needs still a high pressure tank. Let's take one Oxygen atom, and it's
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to the article, correcting a somewhat misleading statement about CO
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medium sized plug-in hybrid car over 300.000 km hydrogen vs Methaol
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The article is supposed to be about methanol economy, not advocacy
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http://www.methanol.org/pdfFrame.cfm?pdf=Methanol_humantox_rev.pdf
830:(a locked article, hmm... sounds like a debate may be brewing),
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Hydrogen vs Methanol for range extenders in plug-in hybrid cars
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Whether climate change has occurred in the last 200 years
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contributor to climate change: is it a subject of debate?
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1228:"A guide to facts and fictions about climate change"
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Doubts about global climate models used by the IPCC
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385:This article has not yet received a rating on the
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1264:. Retrieved
1250:
1242:
1236:. Retrieved
1234:. March 2005
1222:
1212:suggested) (
1175:. Retrieved
1163:
1150:
1128:suggested) (
1113:cite journal
1102:. Retrieved
1089:
1085:
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997:non sequitur
996:
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68:WikiProjects
35:
1206:|coauthors=
1122:|coauthors=
1001:—Preceding
820:Dr. Spencer
709:this change
695:EarlKillian
645:As soon as
582:—Preceding
556:—Preceding
264:Environment
249:categorized
237:environment
192:Environment
1522:Categories
1489:Report bug
1379:Report bug
1266:2008-01-04
1238:2007-11-18
1177:2008-08-29
1104:2006-05-01
1065:References
1034:Pyrospirit
964:Pyrospirit
832:Mr. Taylor
740:Pyrospirit
1506:Smokefoot
1472:this tool
1465:this tool
1362:this tool
1355:this tool
1208:ignored (
1140:ignored (
1124:ignored (
542:Zfishwiki
140:Economics
131:Economics
87:Economics
1478:Cheers.—
1368:Cheers.—
1210:|author=
1186:cite web
1126:|author=
1099:2.0.CO;2
1048:contribs
1015:contribs
1007:Uruiamme
1003:unsigned
978:contribs
947:disputed
824:Dr. Ball
754:contribs
731:reverted
727:contribs
717:Uruiamme
705:contribs
637:Methanol
596:contribs
584:unsigned
570:contribs
558:unsigned
473:contribs
461:unsigned
431:methanol
410:Flatline
28:deletion
1402:my edit
1292:my edit
1194:|pages=
1138:|month=
887:of the
707:) made
487:JEdlund
465:Ucntcme
241:neutral
167:on the
58:C-class
693:After
651:carbon
633:Methan
362:Energy
353:Energy
312:Energy
64:scale.
1160:(PDF)
1082:(PDF)
588:Goepy
562:V8rik
524:arris
454:known
450:known
253:Read
225:This
1510:talk
1214:help
1198:help
1142:help
1130:help
1040:talk
1011:talk
970:talk
858:talk
746:talk
721:talk
699:talk
676:talk
618:and
592:talk
566:talk
469:talk
422:. --
243:and
36:keep
34:was
1446:RfC
1416:to
1336:RfC
1306:to
1094:doi
949:by
925:(CO
777:can
506:how
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159:Low
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