423:
world congress, the congress was opened to all those organisations to agree to abide by its decisions. TheWP initally agreed to these conditions. However, this was essentially a dishonest position by the WP, taken to influence the minority around
Goldman and Morrow. 'Demonization' seems a fair term: Pablo is akin to the monster children are threated with by their parents. However, the discussion on deep entry, which is Pablo's distinct contribution, has been distorted: Pablo's deep entry is presented by almost all Trotskyist as 'liquidation', this this was clearly not his position. The role of deep entry in preserving and developing the Trotskyist cadres in Britain, France and Italy is universally disputed. --
361:
139:
289:
265:
77:
53:
22:
299:
185:
167:
195:
87:
396:" and for the expulsion of comrades who disagreed with this thesis from the FI". I have cut this: I do not think this was the case. In fact, the US SWP was also unclear on this question. Since the FI at this time was stil open to the US Workers Party, it is unthinkable that this claim could have been the case.
689:
Extremely partisan commentary and language; "demonised" "made into an exemplar" "'anti-pabolist'" "a few small...sects" "still writing...tracts" "Decades later (and yet)" "Hostility...legendary" etc. etc. etc. you have to admire the will here, only a purposeful effort could make a paragraph that biased.
422:
I think that the reference to explusions is to Europe and, in particular, to the break-up of the
Revolutionary Communist Party. It would be wrong to suggest that all of Pablo's opponents were expelled, but some were. The question of the WP is different: in order to guarantee the authority of the 1948
696:
Interesting. I'm against a separate page for
Pabloism: you can't explain it without explaining Pablo and his views. "Demonised" is a strong term, but is is the case that Pablo was make responsible for everything that when wrong in the Trotskyist movement. eople with whom Pablo disagreed were called
457:
I take a similar approach to you, but I think there's also a danger of a non sequiter. Unlike the sectarians, Pablo was engaged in the real mass struggles. However, that is not the criticism of Raptis. Raptis is criticised because, in the option of critics, he had too much confidence in the ability
688:
B. "The subsequent hostility of the ICFI to what became known as "Pabloism" became legendary. Pablo was demonised, and made into the exemplar for everything that had been criticised in the
Trotskyist movement. Decades later, a few small Trotskyist sects are still writing "anti-Pabloist" tracts."
412:
Not only that, it is precisely Pablo's critics like Gerry Healy who were more inclined toward thuggery and suppression of political rights under the banner of hysterical sectarian sanctimony. It bears keeping in mind that Lyndon LaRouche emanated from this mileu and has shown the world the real
578:
I understand and would agree with the guideline referred to by
Stemonitis. If Michel Pablo is how Raptis is commonly known as, then let's leave it that way and create a redirect from his proper name to this page. I wonder though if in Greece he's known as "Μισέλ Πάμπλο" or with his actual name.
446:
Raptis was involved with the
Resistance against Nazi occupation and was arrested by the Gestapo and tortured. In addition he was a leading activist in the radical movement against France's war against Algeria's national liberation movement. Later during the 70s he was involved in the radical
447:
struggle in Chile, writing a book "Revolution and
Counter-Revolution in Chile." He was a close friend and confidant of Jean Paul Sartre and Simon DeBovoir and is truly a godfather of the New Left. Thus the sectarian hype about "Pabloism" for which he had nothing but contempt, is misplaced.
684:
Anon= A. Need page for
Pabloism, much more important than Pablo, who merely gives it it's name, not subservient at all to him, for instance like Stalin and Stalinism which is all over Eastern Hemisphere and Cuban history... even though Stalinists mainly hate the term!
597:: I have no idea about the subject, but Googling him (a poor test for such a subject, I admit) reveals his pseudonym to be much more common. Since the article discusses "Pabloism", that lends further credence to the current page being the best. Finally, the
407:
I have taken off the analogy between
Kruschev's denunciation of stalinism and trotskyist criticisms of Pablo. It lacks a sense f proportion !! Kruschev presided a superpower, the trotskyists who criticized Pablo were a few thousand at most!!
726:
721:
417:
It is alos untrue that "demonization" prevented all discussion of the important issues involved in entryism. Entryism was (and is) seriously discussed in all the major trotskyist organizations. John Mullen
370:
275:
766:
627:
I concede that Pablo is more common than Raptis and the Lenin example convinced me. I agree with DeLarge that whichever is selected, it should be used consistently throughout the article. --
148:
63:
731:
643:
Based on the above discussion, and noting that five days have passed, I've removed the requested move template from this talk page, and I'm delisting the request at
611:: the article itself would benefit from consistency; in the main text he's referred to as both Pablo and Raptis. Better to pick one or the other to avoid confusion.
746:
241:
771:
761:
345:
247:
751:
741:
736:
716:
351:
105:
776:
451:
217:
109:
697:
Pablists (Cochran, for example). The ICFI, Spartacists are indeed still writing anit-Pabloist tracts. How should we develop the aricle?--
756:
113:
321:
104:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
208:
172:
100:
58:
312:
270:
33:
21:
524:
545:
360:
476:
Since "Michel Pablo" is a pseudonym, shouldn't the main article be named after the person's real name? --
39:
320:
on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
216:
on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
652:
520:
200:
92:
648:
528:
647:. It appears that the consensus is not to move this article. I've created redirects at
698:
656:
602:
566:
491:
459:
424:
138:
710:
441:
304:
644:
614:
448:
458:
of the mass struggles to push the mass leaderships onto a revolutionary course. --
288:
264:
76:
52:
667:
629:
581:
550:
501:
478:
294:
190:
82:
442:
Pablo's activities with the Partisan Resistance in World War 2 and thereafter
598:
523:(in reputable sources), not necessarily the most corect. Thus, we don't use
438:
Clearly. it's something that bigger than Pablo, and which has survived him.
213:
194:
184:
166:
317:
701:
673:
659:
635:
617:
587:
569:
565:
That's a new rule to me, but we should follow it. Let's not move. --
556:
531:
507:
494:
484:
462:
427:
655:, in case anybody searches for or links to either of those names. -
112:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
727:
Unknown-importance biography (politics and government) articles
601:
redirect exists because that is a title, not a pseudonym. The
15:
359:
137:
527:, his real name, but rather something involving "Lenin". --
499:
I added the move tag above to highlight this proposal. --
722:
Start-Class biography (politics and government) articles
413:
political nature of this ossified political orthodoxy.
316:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
212:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
767:Greek politics and politicians task force articles
350:This article has not yet received a rating on the
246:This article has not yet received a rating on the
8:
732:Politics and government work group articles
19:
259:
161:
47:
261:
163:
49:
149:the politics and government work group
747:Unknown-importance socialism articles
519:— Knowledge tends to follow the most
7:
434:We need a separate page for Pabloism
310:This article is within the scope of
206:This article is within the scope of
98:This article is within the scope of
772:WikiProject Greece general articles
371:Politics and politicians task force
38:It is of interest to the following
14:
762:Unknown-importance Greek articles
368:This article is supported by the
297:
287:
263:
193:
183:
165:
85:
75:
51:
20:
226:Knowledge:WikiProject Socialism
122:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography
752:WikiProject Socialism articles
742:Start-Class socialism articles
737:WikiProject Biography articles
717:Start-Class biography articles
229:Template:WikiProject Socialism
125:Template:WikiProject Biography
1:
463:16:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
452:03:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
324:and see a list of open tasks.
220:and see a list of open tasks.
146:This article is supported by
777:All WikiProject Greece pages
330:Knowledge:WikiProject Greece
110:contribute to the discussion
333:Template:WikiProject Greece
793:
757:Start-Class Greek articles
674:12:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
660:02:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
636:12:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
618:09:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
588:14:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
570:14:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
557:14:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
532:14:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
508:13:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
495:13:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
485:13:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
428:11:47, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
352:project's importance scale
248:project's importance scale
702:07:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
540:Good point, but also the
367:
349:
282:
245:
178:
145:
70:
46:
605:example is much better.
525:Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov
64:Politics and Government
546:Manfred von Richthofen
544:is actually listed as
364:
142:
28:This article is rated
363:
209:WikiProject Socialism
141:
101:WikiProject Biography
653:Michalis N. Raptis
521:commonly-used name
365:
313:WikiProject Greece
232:socialism articles
143:
128:biography articles
34:content assessment
386:
385:
382:
381:
378:
377:
258:
257:
254:
253:
160:
159:
156:
155:
784:
691:Unsigned Comment
670:
632:
584:
553:
504:
481:
338:
337:
334:
331:
328:
307:
302:
301:
300:
291:
284:
283:
278:
267:
260:
234:
233:
230:
227:
224:
203:
201:Socialism portal
198:
197:
187:
180:
179:
169:
162:
130:
129:
126:
123:
120:
106:join the project
95:
93:Biography portal
90:
89:
88:
79:
72:
71:
66:
55:
48:
31:
25:
24:
16:
792:
791:
787:
786:
785:
783:
782:
781:
707:
706:
682:
680:Pro-Pablo bias?
668:
649:Michalis Raptis
630:
582:
551:
502:
479:
474:
444:
436:
394:
335:
332:
329:
326:
325:
303:
298:
296:
273:
231:
228:
225:
222:
221:
199:
192:
127:
124:
121:
118:
117:
91:
86:
84:
61:
32:on Knowledge's
29:
12:
11:
5:
790:
788:
780:
779:
774:
769:
764:
759:
754:
749:
744:
739:
734:
729:
724:
719:
709:
708:
705:
704:
681:
678:
677:
676:
665:Sounds good --
641:
640:
639:
638:
622:
621:
606:
603:Vladimir Lenin
591:
590:
576:
575:
574:
573:
572:
560:
559:
535:
534:
513:
512:
511:
510:
473:
472:Requested move
470:
468:
466:
465:
443:
440:
435:
432:
431:
430:
415:
414:
405:
404:
403:
402:
393:
390:
388:
384:
383:
380:
379:
376:
375:
366:
356:
355:
348:
342:
341:
339:
336:Greek articles
322:the discussion
309:
308:
292:
280:
279:
268:
256:
255:
252:
251:
244:
238:
237:
235:
218:the discussion
205:
204:
188:
176:
175:
170:
158:
157:
154:
153:
144:
134:
133:
131:
97:
96:
80:
68:
67:
56:
44:
43:
37:
26:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
789:
778:
775:
773:
770:
768:
765:
763:
760:
758:
755:
753:
750:
748:
745:
743:
740:
738:
735:
733:
730:
728:
725:
723:
720:
718:
715:
714:
712:
703:
700:
695:
694:
693:
692:
686:
679:
675:
672:
671:
664:
663:
662:
661:
658:
654:
650:
646:
637:
634:
633:
626:
625:
624:
623:
620:
619:
616:
610:
607:
604:
600:
596:
593:
592:
589:
586:
585:
577:
571:
568:
564:
563:
562:
561:
558:
555:
554:
547:
543:
539:
538:
537:
536:
533:
530:
526:
522:
518:
515:
514:
509:
506:
505:
498:
497:
496:
493:
490:Good idea. --
489:
488:
487:
486:
483:
482:
471:
469:
464:
461:
456:
455:
454:
453:
450:
439:
433:
429:
426:
421:
420:
419:
411:
410:
409:
401:
400:
399:
398:
397:
391:
389:
373:
372:
362:
358:
357:
353:
347:
344:
343:
340:
323:
319:
315:
314:
306:
305:Greece portal
295:
293:
290:
286:
285:
281:
277:
272:
269:
266:
262:
249:
243:
240:
239:
236:
219:
215:
211:
210:
202:
196:
191:
189:
186:
182:
181:
177:
174:
171:
168:
164:
151:
150:
140:
136:
135:
132:
115:
114:documentation
111:
107:
103:
102:
94:
83:
81:
78:
74:
73:
69:
65:
60:
57:
54:
50:
45:
41:
35:
27:
23:
18:
17:
690:
687:
683:
666:
642:
628:
612:
608:
594:
580:
549:
541:
516:
500:
477:
475:
467:
445:
437:
416:
406:
395:
387:
369:
311:
207:
147:
99:
40:WikiProjects
30:Start-class
711:Categories
609:Comment #2
529:Stemonitis
657:GTBacchus
599:Red Baron
542:Red Baron
223:Socialism
214:socialism
173:Socialism
119:Biography
59:Biography
392:Untitled
276:Politics
615:DeLarge
595:Comment
517:Comment
449:Tom Cod
699:Duncan
567:Duncan
492:Duncan
460:Duncan
425:Duncan
327:Greece
318:Greece
271:Greece
36:scale.
669:Kimon
645:WP:RM
631:Kimon
583:Kimon
552:Kimon
503:Kimon
480:Kimon
651:and
108:and
346:???
242:???
713::
613:--
579:--
548:--
274::
62::
374:.
354:.
250:.
152:.
116:.
42::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
