Talk:Mueller special counsel investigation/Archive 5

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relationship with Sergey Kislyak, the Russian Ambassador to the United States, and in December 2015 had been photographed sitting next to Vladimir Putin on an undisclosed trip to Russia, and who Russian intelligence agents described as an ally they could use to influence Trump, pled guilty to making false statements about his discussions of sanctions with the ambassador. Sanctions overwhelmingly passed by Congress in response to Russian electoral interference were not imposed by Trump, to the astonishment of some observers. Mueller's proposed plea agreement with Flynn was rejected by the sentencing judge, who accused Flynn of selling out his country. Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort was found guilty on eight felony counts and later pled guilty to conspiracy to defraud and obstruction of justice. A lobbyist for Russian interests in Ukraine for a decade, Manafort had been released on an agreement to cooperate, but subsequently lied to investigators and was sentenced to over seven years in jail. Mueller's team also indicted twenty-five Russian citizens and three Russian entities, including the Internet Research Agency and twelve members of the Russian GRU cyber espionage group known as Fancy Bear, responsible for the 2016 DNC email hacking, about which Trump claimed to have advance knowledge. In June 2018 investigators added an indictment of Konstantin Kilimnik, Manafort's business partner who investigators accused of working for Russian intelligence. Manafort arranged for Kilimnik to receive internal campaign polling data months before their August 2, 2016 meeting to discuss winning Democratic votes in Midwestern states and a plan for Russia to control part of eastern Ukraine. Also among the convicted were Trump's personal lawyer Michael Cohen, who pled guilty to making hush payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal for Trump in violation of campaign finance and possibly state tax laws, Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos, and Russian spy Maria Butina, who was interviewed by Special Counsel investigators but prosecuted by the National Security Law Unit. Longtime Trump advisor Roger Stone, who had met with a Russian agent offering to sell information about Hillary Clinton, was indicted on seven charges. Following the conclusion of the special counsel, at least three dozen ongoing investigations originally handled by the Special Counsel's office were passed on to district and state prosecutors, other Department of Justice branches, other federal agencies, and Congress.

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crimes in Virginia, and, in a plea bargain with prosecutors, also pleaded guilty to conspiracy against the United States. Michael Flynn, Donald Trump’s first National Security Advisor, pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his discussions with the Russian ambassador during the campaign, and became a cooperating witness for the investigation. Others pleading guilty included Manafort's business partner Rick Gates, Dutch attorney Alex van der Zwaan, Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos, and Richard Pinedo. Most became cooperating witnesses for investigators. In February 2018, Mueller indicted 13 Russian citizens and three Russian entities, including the Internet Research Agency; in June, he indicted Konstantin Kilimnik, Manafort's former business partner, to whom Manafort had passed internal campaign polling data. In July 2018, 12 members of the GRU cyber espionage group known as Fancy Bear, responsible for the 2016 DNC email hacking, were also indicted. Investigations into Trump's personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, and lobbyist W. Samuel Patten, were referred to their respective United States Attorneys. Finally, longtime Trump advisor Roger Stone was indicted on seven charges in January 2019.

144:. Others pleading guilty included Manafort's business partner Rick Gates, Dutch attorney Alex van der Zwaan, Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos, and Richard Pinedo. Most became cooperating witnesses for investigators. In February 2018, Mueller indicted 13 Russian citizens and three Russian entities, including the Internet Research Agency; in June, he indicted Konstantin Kilimnik, Manafort's former business partner, to whom Manafort had passed internal campaign polling data. In July 2018, 12 members of the GRU cyber espionage group known as Fancy Bear, responsible for the 2016 DNC email hacking, were also indicted. Investigations into Trump's personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, and lobbyist W. Samuel Patten, were referred to their respective United States Attorneys. Finally, longtime Trump advisor Roger Stone was indicted on seven charges in January 2019. 3169:, what part would be a conspiracy theory? Justified suspicions that must be investigated are not a conspiracy theory. They are unproven allegations until they are proven or disproven. Many of the allegations remain unproven. They are not debunked. The ineffective and incomplete Mueller investigation was unable to find evidence of a formal oral or written "conspiracy" between Trump and the Russians (largely because of Trump's successful obstruction, although I doubt such evidence exists), so that part is unproven, but the investigation found plenty of evidence of collusion and cooperation between Trump's campaign and Russians, and even more 659:

that she fixed that aren't fixed here, namely that Flynn spoke to the Russian ambassador during the transition and not the campaign. Another prominent issue I have with Javert2113's version is that Michael Cohen was still investigated and charged by the special counsel for lying to congress (in addition to becoming a cooperating witness despite not being listed in that sentence), and that should be more prominent than merely saying his case was only refereed. I think it would be best to use Javert2113's as a base, improve upon it with small additions where more context is felt to be needed appropriate for

3177:"His campaign team — with its own unusual shady ties to Russia — was willing to work with a hostile foreign power and eager to accept material stolen from Americans. None went to the authorities to report the illicit contacts, and many of them were subsequently arrested. When the issue of Russian involvement surfaced publicly, every single one of them lied and covered up their actions. Trump then attacked the very institutions that could hold him to account and sought to obstruct investigations, eventually pardoning anyone who could provide evidence of wrongdoing." 344:. That’s the exact problem, the investigation is just a quip in the article, it’s not the main focus. Readers are not served because all of these information distract from the real focus of the article. This is a criminal investigation. Flynn had dinner with Putin - is that criminal? He didn’t disclose that meeting - is that criminal too? I’m not aware he was charged for it. Sanctions were applied - was that due to this investigation? I think not, the report wasn’t released then? It’s about relevancy to the topic. 3264:"Brennan did not say there was no evidence of collusion. He made clear he had been alarmed by the extent of contacts between the Trump team and Moscow....Brennan stressed repeatedly that collusion may have been unwitting, at least at first as Russian intelligence was deft at disguising its approaches to would-be agents. 'Frequently, individuals on a treasonous path do not even realize they're on that path until it gets to be too late,' he said." 31: 2108:

crime. Mueller makes it clear that from the outset they ruled out even considering such a charge. Without all that subtlety, the Barr quote can be misinterpreted as if Barr was saying Mueller didn't actually rely on the DOJ rule. But he clearly did. Mueller has made it very clear, both in the report and in his comments, that the DOJ rule was determinative for them. So I think we should not put this quote in the article. --

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restore what I believe is essential context pertaining to Flynn's long-standing relationships with top Russian officials, Manafort's provision of internal polling data and his specific discussions about Midwestern Democratic voters and a plan for Russian control of Eastern Ukraine, and the ongoing investigations, all of which have been deleted. I don't care as much about the other deletions.

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would be labeled a baseless, ridiculous conspiracy theory, just like Biden and Ukraine or Spygate. Or is Knowledge (XXG) saying that Trump really did collude with Russia, even after the Mueller Report said it "did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities"?

3747: 1286:, I'm not familiar with the phrase "enterprise CI investigation". Is that the same as a "criminal enterprise" counterintelligence investigation? Is this about the investigations of Trump's businesses, which are being investigated in the same way that organized crime businesses are investigated, considering that he operates in the same way? -- 3248:, is a fringe idea which some might believe, but it's not a widely held belief, even among those skeptical of him. I don't know of any evidence, confirmed by RS, that such is the case. He is seen as a Russian "asset", not an "agent". There is a big difference, yet the end result is a problem, as it makes him a national security risk. 3037:. Examples he gives of fantastical coverage include factual errors in reporting that have little to do with the Special Counsel investigation, eg, that Russia hacked the U.S. electrical grid and that Trump was (supposedly) communicating with a Russian bank through secret internet traffic (p. 116). Other examples are Jonathan Chait ( 2703:

I looked at the referenced Dutch newspaper article, and clarified that the Cozy Bear penetration allowed real-time observation of the penetration of the State Department and the White House, not the Democratic National Committee. There is a remaining problem, however, because the subsequent Bloomberg

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I don't like the "related to" language, because anything can be construed as related to anything else, and we've seen too much of this "connect the dots" game. I think "Investigations of Donald Trump" is clear and concise, and the various entities or people that gravitate around Trump would naturally

1424:

OTOH, the investigations in New York and Virginia are spinoffs based on evidence uncovered in the Russia investigation, so there is a direct connection. They are just extensions of the Russia investigation largely created so that Trump couldn't pardon himself, his family, and his accomplices. Mueller

1354:

Interesting. I automatically associated that type of investigation with the ones going on with his businesses (because those are RICO investigations, so no need for the caution), but, if this applies to his campaign, that is, in some ways, even more serious. Wow! But then, why should we be surprised?

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I see the book says “Of course, Trump-Russia conspiracy theories were not the only prominent conspiracy theories following Trump's victory.” The editor would need to establish that the book specifically refers to matters in this article as conspiracy theories, as opposed to perhaps other things some

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Because they're central to the events surrounding the investigation. Discussion of sanctions with the ambassador was followed by lifting travel restrictions on the top three intelligence officials. Flynn's carefully crafted plea bargain was thrown out by a judge who told him he sold out his country.

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Didn’t say it was — I said that multiple editors voiced that the lead was too long, and my feeling that neither of these is short enough. Javert2113 is only better on that relative to EllenCT, and could use a few tweaks ... (e.g. include saying 13 and IRA were indicted, and don’t just say indicted,

3581:. I'm not sure that a significant reduction in length can be accomplished through "just" copyediting (without losing significant information), so a split seems to be the better way to go (this is a very broad and complex topic, after all). In terms of how to split, spinning out the longest section, 3260:

approach to exploit his vanity, greed, and narcissm, all the while gathering kompromat which they can use for blackmail. There is plenty of evidence that such is likely the case. There are plenty of RS, including literally all of the now-former (because Trump fired them) leaders of our intelligence

2677:

There is nothing stunning about it. It is impossible to sue russian people in USA courts due to jurisdiction problems, the only way somebody can win is if the other, in this case russian, party does not show up in the court. Or if they will sue in russian courts, but they apparently do not know how

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Well “no collusion” was also a result of the investigation, but this cite doesn’t relate to the article on the investigation itself and wasn’t about that result. He’s pretty obviously saying the whole narrative was fake, but NYT Haretz etcetera chose to misportray the wording to be him saying part

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That edit summary was based on my initial reaction: since Mueller has said repeatedly that he relied on the DOJ policy, I simply didn't believe Barr if he was contradicting Mueller on that point. After I removed it I went and looked at the reference to see if Barr had really said that. I found that

1956:

Why did you keep the two-bit wannabe money launderers? "Pleaded" instead of "pled" is all over that paragraph. The RFC wasn't about my version, it was about my version that someone had moved the long ongoing investigation sentence up into to make longer, and a different version with the mistake you

1703:

The article has an original mandate letter... is there a later version or another one ? The Original FBI Investigations and Firing of Comey sections end with mentions a report of Mueller later taking over previous FBI Obstruction Investigation ... Seems like for expansion and almost half the final

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Investigators — regardless of what they’re called or what title they hold — don’t have the power to determine whether or not someone committed a crime. They might *believe* someone committed a crime, but they cannot find anyone ‘guilty.’ They can conclude they believe someone committed a crime, in

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which Russian intelligence has cultivated for decades, and that he may be largely ignorant of it, and sees it as an irrelevant non-issue. He has often espoused anti-American and pro-Russian views and has never shown any particular allegiance to American interests, only to his own, so he apparently

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I looked at that sentence on Concord Management mentioned above. The current citation for it is for the Financial Times at ft.com. I have no knowledge of how reputable that source is, but in any case it is behind a paywall. Need a better source and citation format. Can anyone shed light on the

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Para 4 shorten - saying it ended 22 March is fine, specify the two kinds of Russian meddling is fine, drop the embellishment lines of quotes re Trump there, keep the line saying volume 2 was on 10 instances re obstruction, drop the embellishment lines of quotes and only keep the does not conclude

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While not perfect and still rough around the edges, I prefer Javert2113's because it is shorter (from a quick glance, it seems to be half the size) and more on point to the relevant areas of investigation done by the special counsel, however there are some inaccuracies that EllenCT and I discussed

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And I've reverted it. Opinion pieces are not reliable sources. The USA today opinion piece was written by Glenn Reynolds, who operates the right-wing blog Instapundit. WSJ is quite right wing as well, and their framing comparing this to the JFK assassination is ridiculous on its face. The special

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It is literally a theory about a conspiracy between Trump and Russia. Any other allegation that the President of the United States was in cahoots with a hostile foreign country as part of some vast conspiracy to steal elections and hand America over to the Russians a la "The Manchurian Candidate"

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It takes quite a bit of reading in the intro section to come to a conclusion as to what the report actually said. That is, there was no collusion and Trump did not commit any crimes. I think it's rather ridiculous the intro segment takes several paragraphs to try and weasel around that conclusion

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Yes, my impression was also strong avoidance. And that reads as a distinct snub or rejection of the word. After so much mention (confident hype predictions even), avoiding it might be just that it isn’t a professional term, and not be that he had a distain of it as politics or as a disreputable

1931:

The second paragraph now says Flynn discussed sanctions with Kislyak "during the campaign," which was not corrected as agreed without dissent in both RFC discussions. And among other things, it now references minor go-between players van der Zwaan and Patten. I intend to delete those portions and

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What I find more interesting in the context of this article is that the Russia investigation started in July 2016 was also opened as a RICO investigation, according to the FBI's definition of "enterprise investigation" in your source. Can we find more sources about that? Adding content (about the

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sanctions. We'll probably have to wait for Mueller's congressional testimony to find out why he felt so differently about sentencing than the Judge. In the mean time, since the current text was decided by an RFC, if you think the release of the report has weakened the argument for including those

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Notifying the top ten by authorship and edits, excluding a CU blocked account and a vanished user. I am coming at this from an outside perspective, having no involvement with this article previously, after stumbling across it in my watchlist last night for some reason (must've been vandalized or

3045:. I don't see him accusing Mueller of trafficking in any conspiracy theories, or implying that the Special Counsel investigation was a conspiracy theory. For him, the conspiracy theories he's talking about were mainly being driven by mainstream and alternative media selling clickbait for profit. 615:

By the conclusion of the investigation in March 2019, 34 persons had been indicted for federal crimes. Seven of these individuals pleaded guilty or were convicted in federal court. In August 2018, former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort was convicted of eight felony counts of fraud and bank

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2797:

That's a good start. Those are reliable sources, but they are opinion pieces. I don't think we could put "conspiracy theory" in the section title with that, but maybe you could put "X from USA Today has referred to this as a conspiracy theory" or "Some opinion writers have referred to this as a

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First, I suspect this report is written primarily by paid political operatives. We all know the allegations against Trump were 100% fabricated and advanced by the criminal efforts of the Obama administration. This report should be written in a way that makes it impossible to read without being

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I want to explain why I removed it. If you read the reference source, it is pretty subtle as to what Mueller was denying. In context, it appears Mueller was asked if he WOULD have charged a crime except for the DOJ rule - and he said no, because he never considered the possibility of charging a

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between and the Russian leadership". The first is unproven, but the second, and far more serious allegation, is proven beyond all doubt. To understand this, imagine a team of bank robbers who are separately arrested for a robbery that they are proven to have committed together. Their defense

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As of April 2019, thirty-four individuals were indicted by Special Counsel investigators. Eight have pled guilty to or been convicted of felonies, including at least five Trump associates and campaign officials. Trump's former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn, who had a four year long

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BTW,that source can be appended as a ref to the words "enterprise investigations". I suspect it's the "national security" aspect which is most relevant to the campaign, but that also applies to the White House operations, as we can see with the 25 people who got security clearances over the

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1 Russian election interference; 2 Links between Trump associates and Russian officials; 3 Alleged collusion between Trump campaign and Russian agents; 4 Potential obstruction of justice; 5 Financial investigations; 6 Lobbyists; 7 Trump as a subject of investigation; 8 Other topics; and 9

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Who in their right mind gives a flying f**k if they conspired? The actual deed is what's important. They robbed a bank and should pay the price for doing so. That's what's happened. The GOP says to ignore the whole thing because "conspiracy" has not been proven and wants to call the whole

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why do you think omitting Flynn's relationship with Kislyak, that he didn't disclose his trip to have dinner with Putin as required, what Russian intelligence said about him, and the sanctions outcome improves the article? You wrote, "the references quoted here don't mention the Mueller

3076:, "an American political scientist specializing in the study of conspiracy theories"). At first glance, looks like a reliable source to me. To me, the "conspiracy theory" wording is looking less like FRINGE and more like a minority viewpoint that deserves a sentence in the article. – 2123:

It looks like you are technically correct about Mueller's rationale, but why did you write in the edit summary "trivial comment of dubious credibility"? Honestly this whole issue is confusing on both sides, feels like the article should be renamed "The Mueller/Barr contradiction".

460:- responding to ping. My input last time was to nudge that immediately prior discussion said things like “We can heavily trim the second paragraph”, “the lead still needs a good trim”, and “Practically the whole 2nd paragraph can go”. That was saying 'reduce' for the size 3220:

to Russia, absent strong evidence of this extraordinary claim, and basically pushing this narrative hard for two years. But, I know how to read a room. If everybody here says this is fringe, then it's fringe. We can keep it out of the article and no need to discuss further.

1996:

Of course you think your version is superior, but just recently a consensus of editors thought someone else's version was superior to yours. I have not yet formed an opinion on your recent edits, so won't revert. I do think the lead section is way too long and detailed. —

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although this quote taken out of context seems to say that Mueller told Barr he didn't rely on the DOJ policy, in the context of the discussion he meant something quite different. Anyhow I think we are in agreement that it is too confusing/misleading to include here. --

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report there should be something stating that authority or task. It doesn’t seem likely Mueller just redefined his own mission or could just scoop up ongoing investigations at whim. Anyone know where the paperwork is or if things were just done verbally ? Cheers.

1391:

investigation is a well-known (in America) type of investigation normally reserved for organized crime. There are a number of RS and other sources dealing with this and Trump, especially about the investigations into his business affairs by State Attorneys Generals:

2648:"The US has dropped election meddling charges against two companies controlled by a close ally of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin in a stunning retreat for the Department of Justice. Prosecutors on Monday asked a federal judge to dismiss an indictment ..." 2431:

How about knocking off the personal insults? That way we can have a conversation. I appreciate what you pointed out about the function of Knowledge (XXG). Thank you for correcting the placement of my entry in talk. Are you using more than one username?

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other words, but they cannot “conclude” someone as guilty. Regardless of whether or not an indictment of a sitting president is legal, one still needs to be found guilty by the proper authority — whether it be a criminal court, the Senate, what have you

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You can't make a reference to Fox News! You just can't! It's a very dishonest news outlet! ("On March 16, 2020, the US government dropped the charges against Prigozhin-owned companies Concord Management and Consulting LLC and Concord Catering.") Here's

3785:“On potential obstruction of justice by President Trump, the investigation "does not conclude that the President committed a crime", as investigators would not indict a sitting president per an Office of Legal Counsel opinion.” (Citations removed) 468:. As I suggested before, the wording could drop the flowery fillips for some -- but it's looking like it needs to be a lot more serious than that and get organized about "cut or shift to section heads is the goal" for most of the lead. Cheers 2310:

Para 2 shorten - saying 34 indicted is fine, and add mention of spinoff investigations now in para 4 - but cut most of it is listing names which is too much detail. Have details in section 8 of the article, not replicate the whole section

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Mueller's finding that no American conspired with Russia put into perspective how fantastical some of the mainstream coverage of the Trump-Russia conspiracy theories had become. Profit motives were to be found in much of the Trump-Russia

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Yes. Sources report that Booker made a statement about the sharing of polling data during the Barr testimony; Barr asked what was shared and with whom, and Booker didn't answer. What else is there to say? How is that lead-worthy? —

1901:"Not related to the article topic Special Counsel’s Investigation"? The AG apparently didn't know what was in the Report, the conviction for which resulted in the longest sentence imposed as a result of the investigation so far. 1627:

Yes, I forgot that one. Sure, anything connected to Trump has been or will be investigated, so the inauguration should be included. Manafort must regret having sent that memo telling Trump he could help him get the nomination! —

2750:

Can you post a link to a couple of news articles from reputable news agencies that call it a conspiracy theory? Everything on Knowledge (XXG) must have a reliable source, especially when other editors are reverting you. Thanks.

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As long as everyone remembers the difference between the counterintelligence and law enforcement cases, and doesn't blur details from one into the other, I don't care about the specific nature or volume of either set. Have fun!

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no more than 4 short overview paras, cut length to one screen or less before the TOC. My suggestions for cuts would be to move most of the long run on paragraphs to details sections and cut out the couple small ones entirely.

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Two of these three events are not even mentioned in the body, and the third one has just a couple lines. The lead is already too long and does not require such detail to be a faithful summary of the investigation's findings. —

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Booker reacted with incredulity and said he could provide page numbers. Why is Barr's apparent unawareness of Manafort's meeting to trade midwestern voter campaigning for a way for Russia to take control of Eastern Ukraine

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and none of this is there. I consider it unlikely to have been removed from the body. Plus I already pinged you about this on that article’s talk page. Definitely one, possibly twice, I won’t check. Please be more careful.

1399:. "The crimes reportedly under investigation—money laundering, fraud, conspiracy—could amount to a criminal enterprise. That’s how my team of prosecutors put away Detroit’s mayor." by Barbara McQuade, February 8, 2019 1041:

NEITHER - as said repeatedly by several editors the lead and specifically this paragraph are too long. Write with tighter phrasing, and cut out details to reduce things to maybe a third of the shown length. Cheers

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If I might interject (and, no, this is not a vote, but a comment): my version certainly is flawed, and I'm more than open to further revision. That's the fun part of working on an open, collaborative encyclopedia.

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corrected, which was basically copied from the 2nd paragraph from some months ago, way before even the redacted Report was out. I'm replacing the information about Flynn and Manafort in a new, third paragraph.

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is more important than some things in my version, for example, the description of ongoing investigations, which I originally had added to the end of the intro. Someone else moved it to the second paragraph.

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Attorney General William Barr contradicted Mueller's assertion, saying that during a private meeting in early March, Mueller "made it very clear several times that that was not his position."<ref: -->

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I've produced a new version with a second paragraph more similar to mine from the RFC, but shorter because the long sentence about ongoing investigations is at the end. I'm open to further compromise.

1128:, with the caveat that it could surely benefit from further improvements. The current version is not only excessively detailed, but it's so long that it hurts my eyes. I'd choose a short paragraph of 2679: 3060:

The far left calls Trump-Russia stuff conspiracy theories. I hear it all the time on the podcast that I listen to. I guess the question from the point of view of Knowledge (XXG) policy is, is this

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the distinctive characteristic of enterprise investigations is that they concern groups or organizations that may be involved in the most serious criminal or national security threats to the public

1600:(some of the investigations are listed in this link.) What if Trump repeats his performance during the Russia investigation "I'm not a subject. I'm not being investigated?" Thus my suggestion is, 3444: 3486: 1947:

The RfC showed quasi-unanimous consensus against your changes. Perhaps you should take a step back before diving in again. I have corrected the information about Flynn; thanks for the notice. —

3597:. This makes sense. The lead for that subarticle could then be used as the section left behind here, maybe even a single paragraph. It should mention and link to each of the topics mentioned: 3198:

are the fringe beliefs, and you'll find that they are pushed by unreliable sources, not RS. That's why we don't change the title or description. RS and evidence do not back such a change. --

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attorney claims that no evidence of a "conspiracy" to commit the robbery has been found, so all their defenders choose to ignore the robbery itself, and even get the case dropped completely.

2960:(page 117). This goes on for a few pages but I understand Uscinski to be calling any allegation that Trump colluded with Russia a conspiracy theory. I'm not sure how much WP:WEIGHT this has. 213:. At least two of the passages were discussed and consensus arrived at in the weeks leading up to the RFC. If you want to replace passages, please open another RFC and participate in it. 1540: 3320: 2182:

was true and highlighting that alone. Either as humorous misspeak or just playing to a market there. Not useable for here either way, since it’s not about the article topic. Cheers

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Manafort was handing over internal polling data to known Russian spies while talking about how to hand over Eastern Ukraine. What purpose does it serve the reader to omit these facts?

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He has taken his normal ways of doing "business" right into the campaign, public relations, dealings with media, foreign affairs, and the White House, so nothing should surprise us.

1268:

The following content was rescued from an archiving of the discussion at another article's talk page. It may be worth discussing here as it's about the subject of this article. --

3714:, as the one who has done the most on this subject, do you want to do it? If not, I won't mind. I have time enough right now and plenty of experience doing this type of thing. -- 2818:

I've added that, with those two references. Let's see if we can obtain some additional indications of RS statements about this as a conspiracy theory. This seems to have traction.

2341:

I've tackled it, it's now 4 paragraphs. Screen lengths are not a good measure - we have different screens and resolutions. Reactions are sent to body. Fifth paragraph is merged.

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I support Javert2113's proposed version, which does focus on actual indictments stemming from this investigation. EllenCT's additions are undue for this particular article. —

3490:. "Topics" is by far the largest section of this current article and splitting it would be a significant help to resolving the oversize issue currently being experienced. -- 3261:

agencies, which state that Trump is indeed a Russian asset whom they play like a fiddle. They all consider him a serious national security risk. This quote is interesting:

960:

if you want me to go through them all, you have to say which version. Then the onus is on me to go through it to make sure. I'm happy to work on the body until you decide.

732:. I'm pretty sure that's not a high-quality reliable source, that doesn't help your credibility and your case, but damages them. Even so, you seem to be claiming that this 1262: 1758: 1825: 1539:

Yes, pretty good idea. That would clarify a lot of stuff that happened over the last 3 years and is ongoing, and it would help offload some content from other articles:

832:

I support Javert2113's proposed version as the base, with individual additions/expansions to be agreed upon with discussion here. My arguments are in the above section.

238:- I understand your frustration that no one weighed in. Perhaps editors weren’t really paying attention. Here’s a ping for editors who ever posted in those discussions: 1684:

If we're going to do this, I suggest we proceed promptly, as developments are moving fast and we don't want them to slip away and reconstruct everything retroactively

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opinion on this rather than aggregating all of the parts (including that there were different opinions offered by strident observers) of this now-historical event.--

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https://completemusicupdate.com/article/russian-stream-ripper-formally-takes-his-copyright-dispute-to-us-supreme-court-and-says-the-majors-should-support-that-move/

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counsel investigation is clearly not a conspiracy theory, because it's an investigation. Conspiracy theories don't usually result in so many convictions either. –

1421:

2016 investigation) only based on a definition would be a type of original research we can't do, but if we can find RS making the connection, then we can add it.

3480: 419:- I have no comment regarding your comment on Flynn, etc. But no, the current text wasn't decided by RFC, because by your own admission, only you replied to it. 3788:

So, perhaps this is a petty issue, but does anyone else have an issue with how this worded? It’s mentioned several other times throughout the article, as well

2585:

Actually they not just dropped the case (because Progozhin asked for classified documents and thus the case was immediately dropped by a judge, also they were

1883:- this tidbit isn’t a big part of the article. Really seems a bit OFFTOPIC as not related to the article topic Special Counsel’s Investigation, and just lacks 112:- as not apparently relevant to this investigation. Even the references quoted here don't mention the Mueller investigation in relation to this info. I think 2869:

I think we can put this dispute to bed. Scholarly sources located (publication by university professor in scholarly publishing house, peer-reviewed source).-

1596: 795:- okay, reliable sources discussing hypocritical behaviour. That doesn't mean it's lede worthy. Also see my other comment below, just above Slatersteven's. 3454: 2704:

citation incorrectly states that the Dutch article says that the Dutch intelligence group monitored the DNC hack in real time. The original Dutch article

3096:

It's a pro-fringe minority viewpoint, held by one person, an obscure academic. In an article about one of the biggest political events in living memory.

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added. Then, check if what you added is already in the body. If it isn't, add it to the body. Use the same references, use more references if needed.

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https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/04/22/mueller-report-donald-trump-collusion-conspiracy-theories-continue-establishment-column/3535024002/

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I'd like to revive the discussion on the second lede paragraph. I believe it's too detailed. Fragments I would like to question in particular are

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Barr made some kind of statement that said floating pardons for false testimony would be a crime. And then, on Sunday, he said it wasn’t a crime.

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to do it. If they do show up, the case is immediatelly dismissed. For those interested the latest update in that copyright case going to SCOTUS

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Ideally, an article lede should be one, maybe two paragraphs. Any suggestions on how this can be condensed to something more manageable?

2161: 2516: 2786: 2739: 2686: 2600: 1595:- I support your idea. But what counts, for example, the investigation into Trump's presidential inaugural committee, does that count? 209:

was open for five days during which I was the only one who voted. I feel that the parts you don't like establish important context per

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of how corrupt, and dishonest, and biased they are! It's not even news at all! It's a propaganda tool! Don't you ever do that again!

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Archived: THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S GUIDELINES ON GENERAL CRIMES, RACKETEERING ENTERPRISE AND DOMESTIC SECURITY/TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS

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because of obvious jurisdiction issues), but Prigozhin's company Concord Management sued your government for 50 billions $ USD.

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could have prosecuted them himself, but he exploited the fact that some of these alleged crimes were committed in those states.

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I strongly caution about thinking this is related to Trump's businesses. This investigation is about the Trump campaign only.

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on an undisclosed trip to Russia, and who Russian intelligence agents described as an ally they could use to influence Trump,

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objections of trained, non-partisan, professionals. National security isn't a matter of interest to this administration. --

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https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/he-said-he-said-are-mueller-barr-same-page-about-n1012026</ref: -->

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

3344: 103:... Sanctions overwhelmingly passed by Congress in response to Russian electoral interference were not imposed by Trump, 3029:

I doubt that his assertions are supported much anywhere; I think it's idiosyncratic opinion. He has a lengthy quote of

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cited elsewhere in the article. Am I right in saying that these info you added, are only to the lede and not the body?

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I prefer my version, because of the instructions to "establish context" and include the "most important" facts in the

981:- even if I support the other version, you need to go through your own version. You should be able to identify what 3804: 3775: 3763: 3738: 3723: 3704: 3680: 3654: 3637: 3618: 3589: 3567: 3499: 3445:'Not Worthy of Credence': Ordering Release of Mueller Report Memo, Judge Blasts Trump DOJ for ‘Disingenuous’ Claims 3286: 3236: 3207: 3161: 3141: 3119: 3105: 3091: 3054: 3024: 2987: 2969: 2951: 2936: 2922: 2908: 2892: 2878: 2864: 2842: 2827: 2813: 2790: 2766: 2743: 2717: 2690: 2672: 2626: 2604: 2578: 2562: 2544: 2520: 2482: 2459: 2441: 2417: 2359: 2335: 2287: 2264: 2249: 2220: 2205: 2191: 2172: 2148: 2133: 2117: 2074: 2064: 2049: 2040: 2010: 2001: 1983: 1966: 1951: 1941: 1910: 1896: 1871: 1852: 1842: 1819: 1805: 1739: 1713: 1693: 1672: 1649: 1632: 1622: 1583: 1532: 1509: 1492: 1472: 1458: 1379: 1345: 1304: 1277: 1238: 1224: 1195: 1178: 1143: 1113: 1088: 1069: 1051: 1034: 1005: 969: 948: 903: 881: 852: 815: 783: 756: 716: 698: 672: 651: 631: 572: 530: 509:- RFC's closed, please please move the stuff you added in the lede to the body before someone deletes it. Same for 496: 477: 436: 407: 361: 316: 278: 222: 191: 168: 133: 38: 2851:. I disagree that we cannot include the fact that there are differing opinions. Really you're just fronting your 1408: 1318: 2006:

Update: I have started trimming the lead. Only done up to the list of indictments for now. See what you think. —

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This is a complex subject deserving of six to eight introductory paragraphs when necessary to resolve disputes.

307:. Do you have any specific reasons that readers would not be served by such context, other than "too detailed"? 3675: 2354: 1667: 1617: 1527: 1338: 1217: 1171: 998: 941: 874: 845: 808: 749: 525: 431: 356: 186: 163: 128: 98: 2593: 2532: 668: 3650: 3231: 3086: 3069: 2808: 2761: 2590: 2540: 2512: 1505: 915:- not only this article recently. I’m sure you added stuff about Manafort, Gates and Ukraine to the lede of 2778: 2731: 2373: 3628:

Who is the primary culprit for creating this monster, anyway? Oh wait, that would be me, actually. Sorry.

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about which several persons connected to the campaign made false statements and obstructed investigations

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I'm presenting the fact that there are opinions, which is what Novem Linguae suggested was worthwhile.

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who had a four year long relationship with Sergey Kislyak, the Russian Ambassador to the United States,

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Because they found evidence, and it led to charges? You would need some top-line sourcing to get past

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https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/trump-attacks-mueller-probe-confirms-russia-helped-elect-him-1.7307566

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New sections go at the bottom, sign your posts with four tildes and Knowledge (XXG) just summarizes

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say that. I suggest that this citation needs to be removed as inaccurate, but the Dutch one remain.

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By the way, EllenCT, I can't help but notice that many of the references you added in the lede are

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those facts about Flynn, the Ambassador, Russian intelligence, and sanctions are important context

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The second version is shorter and thus fits better as a lede, the top one has far too much detail.

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The Russian Grassy Knoll: The collusion conspiracy theorists keep looking for a second shooter.

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Complexity is dealt with in the article itself: the lede should be a brief, concise summary. See

2242: 2144: 2113: 1639: 1501: 664: 264: 1465: 1719:"What happened to the Trump counterintelligence investigation? House investigators don't know." 513:

please, the stuff you added to the lede but not the body, please also write it in the body....

3800: 3759: 3719: 3614: 3464: 3350: 3282: 3216:, the conspiracy theory part would be the neo-liberals pushing this narrative that Trump is a 3203: 3133: 3101: 3050: 2965: 2554: 2260: 2201: 2168: 2060: 2036: 1979: 1962: 1937: 1906: 1867: 1838: 1801: 1789: 1759:"What happened to the Trump counterintelligence investigation? House investigators don't know" 1731: 1441: 1429: 1362: 1312: 1287: 1269: 1230: 1201: 1187: 1152: 1133: 1065: 1026: 965: 899: 779: 712: 647: 490: 403: 312: 253: 241: 218: 3148: 1880: 1793: 1727:

What happened to the Trump counterintelligence investigation? House investigators don't know.

1132:, or maybe even something saying "All Hail Trump the God Emperor" over that unsightly beast. 660: 639: 304: 210: 3257: 2870: 2856: 2819: 2772:

Mueller report: Donald Trump collusion conspiracy theories are now exposed. Will they end?

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he was convicted of lying to investigators about his discussion with the Russian Ambassador

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investigation a "conspiracy theory" and the proven Russian interference a "Russia hoax".

2401: 1812: 1317:- I was not familiar either (and I'm not American). But, I did a Google search and found 3730: 3711: 3629: 3509: 3151: 2979: 2975: 2943: 2914: 2884: 1685: 1484: 924: 916: 510: 249: 1879:

seems to me not lead-worthy because none of that relates to what is suitable lead per

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I made a correction of a wording error. The changed text is reflected in bold above.

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Judge orders release of Trump obstruction memo, accuses Barr of being 'disingenuous'

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The more widely held view we find in RS is that he is a bumbling, often unwitting,

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Judge criticizes Barr as 'Not Worthy of Credence' and making ‘Disingenuous’ Claims

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I removed your edit because the reference as presented cannot verify the content.

3406:"Ex-CIA chief: Trump staff had enough contact with Russia to justify FBI inquiry" 2663:

The content is also supported by other sources, which should be trivial to find.

3577:- Strongly support splitting or othewise reducing the length of the article per 3533: 3244:, thanks for the clarification. Yes, the idea that Trump is an actual, literal, 2405: 2125: 2097: 1645:

fit in there, even if the title does not go into much detail about the scope. —

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Which version of the second paragraph do you prefer? 16:47, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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is one of the best newspapers in the world and the content is fully verifiable:

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and does not exonerate, then finish with Barr judged it insufficient evidence.

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Now that you have cleared that up, I have created this as a subsection, as a

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We seem to have a pretty strong consensus to do this, so who wants to do it?

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Should there now be a "Congressional investigations of Donald Trump" article?

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http://uawire.org/putin-s-chef-intends-to-sue-us-authorities-for-50-billion

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Why The Trump Organization Now Risks Being Charged As A Criminal Enterprise

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incriminating information is piling up about "Trump's Russian connections"

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-concord-idUSKBN21427H

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and in December 2015 had been photographed sitting next to Vladimir Putin

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Dang, the biggest political event in living memory? That's pretty big.

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what grounds do you have to ask me if I'm using more than one username

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does at length, and the other facts certainly "establish context" per

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I'm late to the party, but I approve and applaud. Well done, guys! —

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Not a standard ref time for sure. Here is the appropriate cite book.

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The ref provided by the editor was empty and could not be verified.

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Where did I comment on your person (rather than your actions) and on

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His assertion that MSM coverage was fantastical is not supported by

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professionally-published mainstream academic or journalistic sources

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The report went to great lengths to avoid using the term collusion.

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Issue with "does not conclude that the President committed a crime"

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provided a published book with an ISBN by a respectable publisher (

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What are they again? It's hard to keep track... (1) tax returns...

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Judge orders release of DOJ memo justifying not prosecuting Trump

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https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-russian-grassy-knoll-11597879099

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coming soon! I think the overview article should just be called

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is suitable for the lede. I respectfully and strongly disagree.

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I'm really not very good with such things, so I defer to you.

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something at some point so added) & seeing the page size.

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This Report Is Written as if This Investigation Was Legitimate

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It seems to me you should discuss your proposed changes here

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The Attorney General's guidelines for domestic FBI operations

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pushing them into the article as "superior in all respects".

2157:"I had nothing to do with Russia helping me to get elected" 3015:

Knowledge (XXG) is not a reliable source for information.

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thread. What are you suggesting to add to this article? —

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facts, you should articulate the reasons in another RFC.

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Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections

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Topics of the Special Counsel investigation (2017–2019)

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proportion of coverage to be DUE much mention. Cheers

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Timeline of investigations into Trump and Russia (2017)

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Steele dossier#Trump viewed as under Putin's influence

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Trump Investigations and the RICO vs Conspiracy Puzzle

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and became a cooperating witness for the investigation

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one of a handful of Trump-Russia skeptics on the left

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Why should these articles be inserted in the lead? —

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New Trump Probe Looks a Lot Like a RICO Investigation

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Links between Trump associates and Russian officials

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The following discussion is an archived record of a

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No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2976:Mueller report#Press coverage of the investigation 1498:Give it some time. I'm busy investigating myself. 1263:Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act 151:proposed this, which I believe is an improvement. 3349:. Lanham: Rowman & Littlefield. pp. 114–119. 2553:has discussed this and found it to be acceptable. 1654:We'll need to clarify that from the get-go then. 3481:Special Counsel investigation (2017–2019)#Topics 3275:this article about "Trump's Russian connections" 3181:Keep in mind two words in the allegation of a " 2798:conspiracy theory" somewhere in that section. – 894:I'm sure I missed some, and will rectify that. 3754:That cut −236,500 bytes from this article. -- 2723:Why is this not labeled a "Conspiracy Theory"? 2307:Para 1 keep, introduce topic & show letter 663:, and then remove any remaining inaccuracies. 464:-- and instead the article and lead has since 2646: 556:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 137: 8: 2299:I’d favor a heavy trim, but suggest instead 1428:When dealing with RICO and their usual use, 1257:Russia investigation as a RICO investigation 340:The CNN article mentions this investigation 3605:Facebook–Cambridge Analytica data scandal. 3296: 3033:'s Matt Taibbi on p. 115 as an example of 2776: 2729: 2371: 1075:say indicted for what; wikilink the term 581: 18:Talk:Mueller special counsel investigation 925:Mueller Report#Conspiracy or coordination 3269:You may find this section illuminating: 3043:had been a Russian asset since the 1980s 2569:source or how to navigate the paywall? 2102:You added a sentence to the lead saying 2022:why did you decide to omit summaries of 1796:make that relationship more noteworthy? 3343:Uscinski, Joseph E. (15 January 2020). 3313: 2942:random kooks on Twitter may have said. 2783:2600:1700:CE90:A310:E193:EA5D:5CED:C94A 2736:2600:1700:CE90:A310:94EE:255A:B857:6DD0 2683:2A00:1370:812D:65B6:ECA9:19BF:C664:CE28 2597:2A00:1370:812D:1FC5:DCD2:D4CD:7B8A:B21D 1749: 561:There seems a strong preference to use 116:probably wrote this, so here's a ping. 3042: 3034: 2956: 2897:How so? Looks like page 119 covers it? 2614: 2370:informed of the scandal it represents. 2103: 1602:Investigations related to Donald Trump 920: 733: 108:to the astonishment of some observers. 93: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3484:be split into a separate page called 1794:Manafort's relationship with Kilimnik 7: 3585:, seems like a good place to start. 2500:. What is the best way to split it? 1204:- you already said that on 23 April 3256:doesn't care. The Russians use the 3376:Beauchamp, Zack (March 22, 2017). 2321:Drop para 5 Meullers farewell bit. 1411:. by Dwight Holton, March 14, 2019 565:'s version as the starting point. 24: 2526:Concord Management and Consulting 1699:Is there a missing authorisation? 1405:. by Steve Denning, March 6, 2019 610:version of the second paragraph: 596:version of the second paragraph: 3745: 2473:though and should be rewritten. 2314:Drop para 3 criticisms entirely. 1248:The discussion above is closed. 1060:None of the above is unanimous. 728:- you just brought up a blog by 29: 3404:Borger, Julian (May 23, 2017). 2615:"a rare mis-step by Mr Mueller" 1723:This may be of relevance here: 1155:- bet you wouldn't choose this 3776:09:16, 22 September 2021 (UTC) 3764:02:37, 19 September 2021 (UTC) 3739:02:32, 19 September 2021 (UTC) 3724:00:32, 19 September 2021 (UTC) 3705:02:43, 18 September 2021 (UTC) 3681:01:02, 18 September 2021 (UTC) 3655:20:49, 17 September 2021 (UTC) 3638:17:07, 17 September 2021 (UTC) 3619:16:42, 17 September 2021 (UTC) 3590:15:24, 17 September 2021 (UTC) 3568:14:33, 17 September 2021 (UTC) 3500:14:24, 17 September 2021 (UTC) 2521:11:53, 14 September 2019 (UTC) 1569:Investigations of Donald Trump 1: 3346:Conspiracy Theories: A Primer 2718:16:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC) 1757:Bump, Philip (May 15, 2019). 1577:Operation Crossfire Hurricane 923:I scroll down to the section 88:Second lede paragraph - trim? 3805:06:43, 17 October 2021 (UTC) 3287:01:14, 31 January 2021 (UTC) 3237:22:23, 30 January 2021 (UTC) 3208:01:43, 30 January 2021 (UTC) 3162:22:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 3142:17:03, 27 January 2021 (UTC) 3120:23:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 3106:23:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 3092:22:45, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 3072:) and a respectable author ( 3055:21:04, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 3025:20:56, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 2988:20:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 2978:. Does he provide examples? 2970:20:15, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 2952:19:55, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 2937:19:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 2923:19:42, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 2909:19:35, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 2893:19:32, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 2879:16:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 2865:16:35, 28 January 2021 (UTC) 2843:16:59, 27 January 2021 (UTC) 2828:15:32, 27 January 2021 (UTC) 2814:06:14, 25 January 2021 (UTC) 2791:06:02, 25 January 2021 (UTC) 2767:05:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC) 2744:03:57, 25 January 2021 (UTC) 2691:16:46, 8 December 2020 (UTC) 2673:14:52, 3 December 2020 (UTC) 2627:14:52, 3 December 2020 (UTC) 2613:described the indictment as 2605:22:46, 1 December 2020 (UTC) 2579:21:12, 14 October 2020 (UTC) 2483:04:58, 23 August 2019 (UTC) 2460:02:45, 12 August 2019 (UTC) 2442:02:42, 12 August 2019 (UTC) 2418:23:07, 11 August 2019 (UTC) 2211:conspiracy theory. Cheers 2091:"Barr contradicted Mueller" 1718: 1549:Tax returns of Donald Trump 3820: 2563:20:16, 15 April 2020 (UTC) 2545:20:05, 15 April 2020 (UTC) 1260: 1239:14:36, 26 April 2019 (UTC) 1225:14:03, 26 April 2019 (UTC) 1196:09:38, 26 April 2019 (UTC) 1179:02:20, 26 April 2019 (UTC) 1144:23:28, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 1114:04:42, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 1089:02:08, 30 April 2019 (UTC) 1070:04:57, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 1052:02:31, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 1035:07:01, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 1006:06:15, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 970:04:57, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 949:00:52, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 919:. I’m also sure you added 904:19:44, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 882:07:36, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 853:04:40, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 816:07:36, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 784:06:15, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 757:04:36, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 717:03:03, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 699:01:14, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 673:00:19, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 652:16:52, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 632:08:37, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 497:22:22, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 478:02:25, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 437:08:47, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 408:07:28, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 362:06:13, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 317:05:19, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 279:05:04, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 223:04:56, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 192:08:51, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 169:04:52, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 134:04:51, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 3064:or a minority viewpoint? 2699:Cozy Bear / Dutch section 1784:Barr on Manafort/Kilimnik 1464:Sorry, this looks like a 1459:02:42, 2 April 2019 (UTC) 1380:01:12, 2 April 2019 (UTC) 1346:00:44, 2 April 2019 (UTC) 1305:15:12, 1 April 2019 (UTC) 3070:Rowman & Littlefield 2404:instead of spouting off 2360:13:41, 6 June 2019 (UTC) 2336:00:34, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 2288:23:50, 14 May 2019 (UTC) 2265:06:06, 14 May 2019 (UTC) 2250:05:14, 14 May 2019 (UTC) 2221:23:31, 4 June 2019 (UTC) 2206:00:18, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 2192:23:46, 2 June 2019 (UTC) 2173:20:04, 30 May 2019 (UTC) 2149:15:44, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 2134:03:19, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 2118:00:13, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 2075:15:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 2065:15:58, 26 May 2019 (UTC) 2050:07:02, 26 May 2019 (UTC) 2041:22:33, 25 May 2019 (UTC) 2011:18:28, 11 May 2019 (UTC) 2002:14:37, 11 May 2019 (UTC) 1984:13:58, 11 May 2019 (UTC) 1967:13:47, 11 May 2019 (UTC) 1911:00:16, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 1897:00:06, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 1872:21:55, 29 May 2019 (UTC) 1853:19:25, 29 May 2019 (UTC) 1843:16:04, 26 May 2019 (UTC) 1820:07:05, 26 May 2019 (UTC) 1815:make this connection? — 1806:00:21, 26 May 2019 (UTC) 1740:02:43, 16 May 2019 (UTC) 1714:11:29, 11 May 2019 (UTC) 1250:Please do not modify it. 1186:The second, its shorter. 608:Javert2113's alternative 550:Please do not modify it. 206: 3526:Emir of Knowledge (XXG) 3478:I propose that section 3469:22:49, 4 May 2021 (UTC) 3147:This is going nowhere. 2231:Lede is WAAAAY too long 1952:21:12, 6 May 2019 (UTC) 1942:18:32, 6 May 2019 (UTC) 1927:Second paragraph gutted 1694:18:13, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1673:02:12, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1650:01:30, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1633:01:28, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1623:00:50, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1584:19:19, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 1533:03:33, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 1510:00:28, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 1493:22:59, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 1473:19:22, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 1278:22:57, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 1229:Sorry, you are correct. 573:16:03, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 531:03:28, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 3440:The cover-up exposed: 2660: 774:will do just as well. 703:Similarly I feel that 586:Options under the fold 146: 2468:Odd Language in intro 1792:lack of knowledge of 42:of past discussions. 3246:Manchurian candidate 3218:manchurian candidate 300:investigation," but 2654:The Financial Times 2641:The Financial Times 2611:The Financial Times 2587:trolling the courts 1824:Did you even look? 1764:The Washington Post 545:request for comment 458:User:Starship.paint 3688:: I don't object. 3474:Splitting proposal 2496:of markup - it is 1158:paragraph though. 3433: 3432: 3355:978-1-5381-2121-4 3235: 3090: 3039:New York Magazine 2812: 2793: 2781:comment added by 2765: 2746: 2734:comment added by 2492:This article has 2389: 2376:comment added by 1643: 1551:, and especially 1456: 1377: 1302: 1142: 1122: 623: 622: 594:EllenCT's current 462:about a month ago 85: 84: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3811: 3753: 3749: 3748: 3703: 3672: 3667: 3565: 3562: 3557: 3497: 3494: 3423: 3422: 3420: 3418: 3401: 3395: 3394: 3392: 3390: 3373: 3367: 3366: 3364: 3362: 3340: 3334: 3329: 3323: 3318: 3297: 3258:carrot and stick 3229: 3227: 3084: 3082: 2806: 2804: 2759: 2757: 2658: 2639: 2519: 2510: 2506: 2430: 2399: 2351: 2346: 2101: 2021: 1776: 1775: 1773: 1771: 1754: 1664: 1659: 1637: 1614: 1609: 1594: 1524: 1519: 1483:just wonderin' 1450: 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