Talk:Muhammad Ali/Archive 1

216:

and hope yins can help. Ali's religious history seems notable enough to deserve its own section - possibly a cleanup/rewrite of the "changes his name section" seperating it somewhat from his fight history. At the moment, any information present in the article is awkwardly spliced into a number of places based partly on chronology. The current placement of the Name section seems to be mostly in place to explain the references to the change in the preceding section on the Patterson fight. Although this preserves the narrative flow from the Liston to Patterson fights, it leads to his entire career from 66-69 as well as his opposition to being drafted during the Vietnam War all being under a heading solely about his name change. Whether placed chronologically or thematically, it seems to me that the issues regarding Vietnam, being stripped of his championship belt, and the like should be a distinct section - this string of related events are fairly significant in the course of Ali's life and are fairly well known, if possibly not entirely accurately. Ali's resistance to the draft was due in part to to his religious beliefs, but it shouldn't be lumped into a section on religion any more than it should necessarily be lumped into the section about his professional career. To be honest, the article has some serious structural flaws from the beginning (e.g., the rumble and Thrilla being a subsection w/in Fight of the Century section) that make it different to work with. As soon as I figure out how to fit them in without damaging the structural integrity of the article, I'll get started on this stuff. The main issues, for me, that need reworking or clarification are these: 1) Ali's original conversion to

310:

him) was a true prophet and he was the last prophet. The last Messenger of Allah was the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. A Messenger gives to you that of which was told to him by the Great and Mighty God Allah. A prophet predicts what will happen and brings scriptures along with him as well as telling what Angels have told him of what Allah has told them. Yes sir we do read from the Quran and Islam has gotten off of it's original track that's why Allah had to come, in the person of Master Fard Muhammad (whom praises are due forever), had to come and give us the basics again. Also Allah has to have a physical form in order to be of any relevence in this physical world. So this vessel of Master Fard Muhammad (whom praises are due forever) was specifically made to hold the spirit of Allah, the originator of the Heavens and the Earth.

1554:

Ring, Nat Loubet, rated Joe Louis number one on his list of heavyweight greats. Boxing historians such as Dan Daniel, Lew Eskin, Ted Carroll, and Bill Gallo all consider Joe Louis to be the greatest heavyweight champion. John Durant, author of "The Heavyweight Champions" rated him as the # 1 heavyweight of all time. Bert Sugar rates Joe Louis # 2 at heavyweight. The Aug. 1980 issue of the Ring rated Louis as the second greatest fighter in history behind only Sugar Ray Robinson. The Holiday 1998 issue of the Ring rated Louis second behind Muhammad Ali at heavyweight. Former heavyweight champ and boxing historian Mike Tyson, in the HBO video, "Tyson and the Heavyweights" (1988), said of Louis, "It's difficult to see anyone beating him even Muhammad Ali". Cox's Corner rates Joe Louis # 1 among All Time Heavyweights.

1534:

instance, in both 1994 and 1998 acknowledged Ali as the best ever. Use that ranking instead of the "widely acknoweldged" cite. What my main gripe is that the fans of certain boxers will say that Mike Tyson, Joe Lous, Muhammad Ali, Jack Johson, Rocky Marciano, et. al, is "widely acknowledged as the greatest heavyweight of all time." No, that's incorrect. There is a lot of debate about which HW champ is the greatest. Most say that it's Ali. A lot of old-timers say that it's Louis. Nat Fleischer says that it's Jack Johnson. To evade the issue by saying that "it's widely acknowledged that Muhammad Ali is the greatest" is both incorrect and an insult to a lot of old-time boxing writers. Just source the material and I'll be happy.

1644:

George Logan, Willi Besmanoff, Lamar Clark (who had won his previous 40 bouts by knockout), Doug Jones, and Henry Cooper. Among Clay's victories were versus Sonny Banks (who knocked him down during the bout), Alejandro Lavorante, and the aged Archie Moore " and "Clay then won a disputed 10 round decision over Doug Jones, who, despite being lighter than Clay, staggered Clay as soon as the fight started with a right hand, and beat Clay to the punch continually during the fight." and "Clay's next fight was against Britain's Henry Cooper, who knocked Clay down with a left hook near the end of the fourth round. Clay was given extra time between rounds immediately after being floored by Cooper, a blatant violation of boxing rules."

2860:(I don't know about the libel.) The claim "Sunni Muslim philosophy contributes to his belief in segregation" does not obviously follow from the cited article. The article text is not very clear, and the phrases "segregation" and "Sunni Muslim" does not appear. One might guess from the anecdotes told in the article that MA believes in segregation, but it is not directly stated anywhere. And there might be a connection between that belief and his Black Muslim connection, again it is not especially clear from the text alone. The jump from "Black Muslim" to "Sunni Muslim philosophy" as a reason is not supported at all. 983:

university, Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan and he told me that Muhammad on several occasions came into the university cafeteria and ordered food there and told this man that he enjoyed the vegetarian fare that the university offered (probably the first and last compliment a university cafeteria will ever receive). Incidentally this man also said that Muhammad was exceedingly friendly and amiable and chatted to him. He left a very good impression on this man. Apparently Muhammad had a house near Berrien Springs, Michigan (where Andrews is) during the (I believe) mid '80s.

3342:

think is no longer disputed. What we are trying to determine now is should the other contenders who are not the subject of the site be compared to Ali when they are not being directly compared. Bottom line: Should Louis and Marciano be compared to Ali on this site. They both have substantive verification be considered contenders for the greatest status, but it draws irrelevant debate that locks down the site. I vote for the debate be moved away from the individual fighters' pages, and the section comparing the perceived greatest be removed unless it is referencing Ali specifically.

151:

realized that acting like a braggart would draw out the largest crowds to watch his fights. He has said that he'd intentionally bait everyone in that way, knowing that everybody would come to witness the fight and see him get beat up. I can't remember the source where I read this, it was a biographical coffee-table type book, with all kinds of quotes from Ali interspersed among photographs and textual details of his career. I can't remember the source, but I'm adding it to the wiki anyway. It's an important detail to understand Ali's character correctly.

31: 935:

category, so I'm assuming that's what the infobox is referring to as "orthodox." When the text describes his fighting style as "highly unorthodox" it is referring to other aspects of his fighting style. Even though his general fighting style might have fit into the orthodox category, the way he moved around and other things he did made it just as unorthodox. Feel free to find a better way to clarify this and put it in the article.

2139:

knowingly. "Nature's way," he says, "nature's way." Bingham tries to dispute this, pointing out that the whole thrust of the documentary is that the races can get along better if only they know each other better. But Ali is having none of that -- and never mind that he lives his life race-blind. Bingham shrugs. It's the old Black Muslim philosophy. "I don't argue with him on religion," Howard says. "What's the point of that?"

1393:

thought Clay deserved the close decision based on the early rounds. Either way, I don't think the article should take sides, considering how close the fight was. The last thing I edited was about the Liston fight, where it says that Clay had a "height and reach" advantage. He was taller, but Liston had the reach advantage. All of this height/weight/reach stuff can be found on boxrec.com. I might make more edits later.-8/30/06

3279:

bottled up without tying up the individual boxer articles. We probably should just keep the ranking info in this article about Ali's rankings alone, and drop Joe Louis and anyone else, with the possible exception where we have a major source that says it was difficult whether to place Ali or somebody else at the top -- in that case, it would be natural to mention the other boxer.

4353:

how does Time and Newsweek report on something that has no basis? Since we try to base material in this encyclopedia on what can be referenced, the greater weight is on Ali saying these words rather than not saying them. Somebody not being able to find something isn't notable. What would be notable would be Ali saying "I didn't say that". Did Hauser ask Ali?

4611:: Your point about the various other references is well taken but does not strengthen your case for inclusion; rather, it suggests that the "Pop culture" section should be reworked as a "Bibliography". Trading cards and autographs are not particularly notable; they exist for literally thousands of athletes, and unless they are particularly rare or important ( 2874:

opinion about how kids naturally act. Mere inclusion of this quote in the context of Ali becoming a Sunni Muslim, with the quote's muddled meaning, constitutes a biased coloring of Ali. Again, this isn't going to be allowed, so why is our time being wasted? The effort to include this is akin to racism, and that obviously is an effort doomed to failure.

946:

because he was right handed. If you look up Floyd Mayweather Jr's article for example (current Welterweight champion) you'll see it says he has an orthodox style because he's right handed, if you look up Antonio Tarver's article (former Light Heavyweight champion) you'll see his style says southpaw because he's left handed-6/27/06

228:, a very temporary solution), neither of which is entirely appropriate on the basis of both chronology or article structure (and both of which have fairly awkward diction - presumably the author was having as much trouble working with the article as I am). I'll... see what I can do about this. I'd appreciate any help. 1504:

similar type of source for your praise, it does not belong in a Knowledge (XXG) article. The correct way to phrase the sentence about Holdsworth would be: "in 1999, the readers of Jazz Guitarist voted Allan Holdsworth top guitarist of the year" (this is just an example, the magazine does not actually exist).

363:

occasion see it more in terms of a white man raping a black woman rather than the love match it seems to have being. I'm not drawing attention to this just because of his Irish descent (though I am delighted as an Irishman to learn of it!) but also because I think it sheds interesting light on Ali himself.

4239:"Fifteen referees. I want fifteen referees to be at this fight because there ain't no one man who can keep up with the pace I'm gonna set except me. There's not a man alive who can whup me. I'm too fast. I'm too smart. I'm too pretty. I should be a postage stamp. That's the only way I'll ever get licked." 4503:

22:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)style - what about his style? - lowered hands, foot speed, swaying his head to avoid punches, ali shuffle etc? Also although were are all tired of hearing it his two fights with Hnery Coooper- they were important in his career and in particular the first as it set him up

3962:

article quotes 1964 as the date of release of Lynch's version, so 1964 seems more likely (at least for the UK release). I am not certain enough of the date to put that in the main article, though. It would be good if someone could verify a more precise release date and update the article accordingly.

3341:

The fact that substantive verification is needed for one to be referred to as arguably the greatest is no longer disputed. The inclusion of Ring Magazine’s ranking as the greatest heavyweight is no longer disputed. The fact that having the greatest record can be considered substantive verification, I

3303:

There is a listing of heavyweight champions, and this debate could possibly be put in that category. However, I don't know that it would end the situation on individual boxers' pages. If Ring magazine calls Ali the greatest, I think that is a good point to put on Ali's page. As Stevietheman says, it

2888:

The only person here who is biased is you. Muhammad Ali is an admitted segregationist by his own quote. How is that racism? And how dare you accuse Uucp of sock puppetry. Merely because someone else agrees with my viewpoint gives you no right to wrongly accuse someone with absolutely no evidence.

2474:

Steve "The Man" -- are you honestly accusing Sports Illustrated of being biased against Ali because of his religion? I doubt any publication in the world has been more supportive of the man. The article is quite unambiguous -- Ali believes that some forms of segregation are part of the natural order.

2138:

Now the two old friends sit together again, watching the video of a new documentary that Bingham has brought over. It is called City at Peace, and it is about black and white kids trying to get along. When one of the girls in the video laments that whites go in one car and blacks in another, Ali nods

2088:

I removed a part of the article that claimed that Doug Jones "beat Clay to the punch throughout the fight" from the article a few months ago, and now its back, so I removed it again. This is a POV statement, implying that Jones deserved the decision. I've seen the fight myself, I thought Clay won. My

1392:

I made some edits to the article. Doug Jones and Henry Cooper did not weigh 25 pounds less than Ali, or Clay at the time, though Cooper was close to that. I thought it was POV in terms of the Jones fight, it claimed that Jones beat Clay to the punch "throughout the fight." I disagree with this, and I

1113:

I added some things to this section, just wanted to leave some citations since wikipedia is strict about citing everything. Ali won the Sportsman of the Year award in 74, you can look it up in the wikipedia article on that award. His Ring Magazine Fight and Fighter of the Year awards can be looked up

232:

05:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC) I've made some changes (as I said, mostly structural thus far) and tossed in a bit re #4 at the relevant chronological point (actually, roughly the same place I'd excised it from because I didn't like how it fit). I'm going to step back from it for a bit, but it still could

4949:

Sufism/Tasawwuf is a part of Sunni Muslim orthodoxy. In fact, all the major Sufi orders, such as the Qadri and Naqshbandi orders, are Sunni in belief, and the majority of "folk" Muslims accept Sufism as a part of Islam. So its quite misleading to suggest that Ali has left Sunni Islam and "converted"

4370:

I remember seeing film clips of Ali making that statement (at least the first part), which I believe happened at a press conference following his refusal to be inducted, although I could be wrong on that point. However, I haven't seen the actual clip in recent years, although I've read reports about

4352:

It was actually very easy to find credible sources for the quote, although it does appear that the quote has some variations to it. Just because somebody calls themselves a biographer doesn't mean they know how to do extensive searches -- I know this from personal experience. One would have to ask,

3778:

There isn't really any substanitive proof to state that Ali had declined after the Thrilla in Manilla. Most of it is speculation, and thus the inclusion of the claim that both Ali and Joe Frazier were never the same after the Thrilla in Manilla fight violates Knowledge (XXG)'s rules of neutrality. I

3324:

I am no longer disputing the "greatest by some" position. I think we are in agreement here. I think we should just state how Ali is ranked in various notable ranking lists, and leave it at that, perhaps referring to another spot where rankings are shown comparatively. I think it has by now become

3208:

Professional Heavyweight boxing champions Rocky Marciano and Jack Dempsey should be included as potential threats to Ali’s perceived status as “the greatest.” Personally, I do not believe they are “greater” than Ali but I do not believe they are necessarily inferior either. But I do acknowledge the

1831:

Actually, there is factual dispute. Only one person can be the "greatest," and while I understand you may want someone from Louisville to have that title, there is no consensus in the boxing world that Ali is the best. There is certainly a factual dispute about who is the best heavyweight. The Louis

1589:

I think Ali was the greatest Heavyweight of all time, and I think it's absurd to argue otherwise... but that's opinion, nothing more. I think the article can say, however, that many people regard Ali to be the best Heavyweight of all time, and the Joe Louis article can say the same about Louis. It's

1533:

Instead of playing the childish game of deleting and restoring, let's find some common ground. I think that Ali is the best heavyweight champ in history. However, I also recognize there is some dispute about this. All I'm asking for is some outside verification for this claim. Ring magazine, for

511:

The edit could hardly be more significant in its scope, yet it seems to have not been noticed, and indeed is still there right now. The original diner story is widely cited elsewhere, not least in Ali's own autobiography, _The Greatest_. I'll leave it those of you involved in this page to make the

215:

I'm working on how best to address Ali's religious views in the article, and may be making more changes in the near future. Right now information on religion in the article is scattered and occasionally misleading. I'm going to lay out what I've got now here in the talk page before incorporating it,

5046:

The page states (quote) "that he threw his Olympic gold medal into the Ohio River after being refused service at a 'whites-only' restaurant, and fighting with a white gang. Whether this is true is still debated, although he was given a replacement medal during the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, where he

4759:

The discussion regarding the Supreme Court case is incomplete. The result of the decision is not clearly stated, and there is no analysis of the reasons that the Court overturned the lower court decisions. The text as it presently exists also suggests that the Court was moved by increasing public

4640:

Ali's autographs are most sought after and of interest to millions, far moreso than the anecdotal interest in video games which have no shelf life as his EXTREMELY VALUABLE trading cards might. For example, Ali's cards have multiple recorded sales in the five figure range which exceeds 99% of other

4538:

In the statistics box at the top of the page he is described now as " African-American". There is no citation given for this claim. If he is African-American then I think more detail as regards to his heritage should be given in the "Biography" section considering that a few websites claim that he

4388:

I have certainly seen the "I ain't got no quarrel with them Vietcong" in more than one clip-said on more than one occasion-if my memory is accurate, he said it in an interview with Harry Carpenter on BBC TV (UK), among other occasions. This will surely be in BBC archives. I do not recall hearing or

4339:

This entry says, "Ali also said in 1966: 'I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong ... They never called me a nigger.'" without attribution. Wikiquote files this under "Misattributed" quotes, and claims that Ali biographer Thomas Hauser found no evidence of this quote after extensively searching.

4074:

since you asked for a book reference. I didn't (and don't), want to get into political issues. As to the postscript question, which I presume came from you, I am no boxing expert, but I saw at least on TV, most of Ali's fights ( from the first Liston fight), and he was the best I saw. I don't think

3782:

Also there are multiple conflicting reports as to why Muhammad Ali's fight Doctor Freddie Pacheco left Ali's entourage, some stating Ali's slowed reflexes, and others stating that Pacheco took tests of Ali that revealed damage to Ali's kidneys. Perhaps it would be better to generalize the statement

3309:

However, I contend that any attempts to say that a boxer is "considered the greatest" must be backed up by some citation and the designation labeled as such. For instance, I think it is improper to say that "Ali is considered the greatest HW champ by some." Instead, "Ring magazine ranked him as the

3224:

Also, based on the extensive Woroner survey and the NCR 315 analysis, Dempsey and Marciano were determined to be the top heavyweight champions in history, with Marciano being the better of the two. While I do not consider this a completely accurate deduction, it does reinforce the prominence of the

2863:

Even if MA believes in segregation, it is a question if that fact is of encyclopedic value. If the SI quote is the strongest statements for segregation he has made, it hasn't. It is only encyclopedic, if it is part of his public persona. If it is, the best bet would be to mention any segregation

1872:

Your confusion regarding my position (i.e., I never said he was actually the greatest, nor do I want to especially promote this, but it is indeed a fact that many think he is) not withstanding, I think the new section addressing this is all right. Perhaps this could be referred to in the opener as

1806:

I was looking at the Joe Louis article again, why does his article say this "Louis is regarded by many boxing historians, as well as commentators, to be the greatest heavyweight champion of all time."? The same isn't true for Ali?: In Ali's biography "Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times" Al Bernstein,

1176:

I'm not registered so I can't edit the page, but the photo caption "Ali taunts...Joe Frazier" is completely inaccurate. If you watch the fight footage, Ali never taunted him, and you won't even be able to pick up that image. The photographer has said it was a miracle/accident that he got that the

438:

Certainly not, their opponent were the Scrubbs, a sort of made up aliens. Ali wins both the fight against Superman and the one against the alien Champion, but it is clear in the rest of the comic that Superman (with the powers he retains under a Red sun far more dangerous) and Ali had agreed to fix

309:

Listen the Nation of Islam is an organization spawned from Islam to help build a nation of people. It's specifically designed for the black man and woman all over the world, others can benefit but it's intentions were to build up black men and women. We believe that prophet Muhammad (peace be upon

4439:

The quote in only gives the first part. The quote in was indirect in a 1994 article,where it says "Ali was quoted as saying" the full quote,but it does not say where,when or by whom,and does not give any other verification. There are film clips including the first part of the quote. Is there any

1553:

Most boxing historians rate Joe Louis number one or number two on their list of the greatest heavyweights of all time. Eddie Futch, who devised the strategy that defeated Ali for both Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, considers Joe Louis to be the greatest of the all time heavies. The late editor of the

1503:

In articles about works of art, games, TV series and other subjects without estimable values, Wiki editors will often try to pass on POV opinions by writing under a pseudonym (e.g., "some fans think Allan Holdsworth is the greatest guitarist ever"). Unless you can provide a survey, a review or any

4087:

Of course the postscript question did come from me :) . If you check the discussion history, it came by an IP: 221.128.134.155 . Then lets add "The Greatest" as a reference and if anyone has anything against, let them correct it. Its useless getting into deep bureaucracies when some kid can come

4047:

All I removed was "History has largely overlooked this" which is quite harmless. The almost-cancellation of the fight still remains there, although I still insist that someone provides a reference, even just a book title. To say that "they wanted to deny someone the right to the World Heavyweight

3389:

I thought we already concluded this, but this section should talk about Ali's rankings only, whether he's #1 in one list or #5 in another one. Comparative ranking discussion belongs in a centralized location (separate from, but linked to from this article) to list all the rankings for all boxers

2000:

Someone want in and put 'he has parkinsons' on the quotes article, this page was messed up like one of Ali's (LEGEND) opponents faces after a fight with him lol but it still is. If your not logged in and you click on this link it still says it where as if you are logged in it doesn't does anybody

1663:

In regards to the claim that Ali (Clay) received extra time after being knocked down by Henry Cooper; this is a myth, more or less. Ali's glove was torn, Angelo Dundee ripped it a bit further to try and get Ali more time, which was a violation of the rules. However the myth says that Ali received

945:

Ali's style was unorthodox because he broke many cardinal rules in boxing, ie holding his hands low, backing straight up, not throwing to the body, and most importantly he was very unorthodox in that he was a Heavyweight who relied mostly on his Middleweight-like speed. But his stance is orthodox

934:

I imagine the box is referring to more general categories of boxing "style" such as someone who hits hard, but doesn't throw as many punches or something who throws a million punches but isn't concerned about how hard they land. Ali fits into what is sometimes called "pure boxer" or "long range"

4636:

I hardly spouted off. And if any degree of rancor was apparent it might have been in response to the uneven approach here or the rash dismissiveness of its self-appointed judiciary. Your editing predecessor simply ignored the inconsistency that you now recognize and responded with a succinct and

3977:

It says that the first Liston fight was almost canceled because they saw Ali with Malcolm X in Miami. First, there is a gramatical mistake there (overlookedthis- ...). Second, I couldnt find anything on the web about this and it cites no reference, not even a book. I'm not touching this for now,

1746:

I was told that Cassius Clay originally converted to Nation of Islam in order to avoid the draft and although I don't believe that, I am unable to find a specific date of his conversion to prove otherwise. The article says he revealed that he was a member of Nation of Islam and that his name was

1643:

It seems to me as if there's a negative slant on Ali in the article. Note the following passages "He defeated such boxers as Tony Esperti, Jim Robinson (who weighed 160 pounds when he fought Clay), Donnie Fleeman (who had broken ribs going into the fight but fought Clay anyway), Alonzo Johnson,

705:

This article says: "Despite this, he remains a hero to millions around the world. In 1985, he was called upon to negotiate for the release of kidnapped Americans in Lebanon. In 1996, he had the honor of lighting the Olympic flame in Atlanta, Georgia. Every public appearance by Ali is treasured,

362:

Has anyone got the goods on this? I am aware that his great-great grandfather or great-great-great grandfather was an Irishman from Co. Clare who emigrated to America in the 1850's, fell in love with and married a black woman. Ali does not seem proud of this as I have read of him on at least one

242:

What does this sentence mean? "The adoption of this name symbolized his new identity as a Muslim, and he retained the name even after his later conversion to Islam." His later conversion? If he was already a Muslim at the time, how could he convert to Islam LATER? Perhaps this might have been

2133:

Editor Seicer has been removing a quotation from Sports Illustrated, claiming it is libellous and not sourced. The citation has been provided, and from my reading, the text in the article is a fair extract of Ali's own words. How can a quotation of a man's own words from a good source be libel?

1558:

In light of this, to keep saying that Ali is "widely regarded" as the greatest HW champ of all time is to simply ignore the evidence. If you are going to say that he's the greatest, then use a source for that (such as the Holiday 1998 issue of Ring). Don't claim that it's the consensus in the

150:

Hi. I'm about to add in a line about the way that Ali "sung his own praises." The wiki as it stands implies, in accordance with the conventional wisdom, that Ali was merely arrogant and cocky. But, he has stated before that he developed the self-praise-singer strategy as a youngster, when he

5499:

I disagree. People still talk about "Clay-Liston fights" for instance, not "Ali-Liston" fights. It is odd and off-putting to say that 'Ali had been seen around Miami and in other cities with the controversial Malcolm X. At the time, The Nation of Islam — of which Malcolm X was a member — was

5157:) 05:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC) The article: "Rather than the normal style of carrying the hands high to defend the face..." A reference: "He held his hands unconventionally low, backed away from punches rather than bobbing and weaving out of danger, and appeared to lack true knockout power." 3369:

Or, if you want to sustain this section, than we would allow anyone with substantive verification to support their perceived title as the greatest. In this case Ali should be admitted because of the Ring Magazine ranking, Louis should be admitted because of the International Boxing Research

3278:

I'm starting to think we should have a separate article on heavyweight boxer rankings. At some point, we just have to draw the line on how much extraneous info goes into this article (or the articles for other boxers). If anything, a separate article will keep all the debates and controversy

3229:

And without a doubt, Marciano should be included. His record speaks for itself. He is the only the undefeated/untied heavyweight champion professional boxing has ever known. And while this does not automatically deem him the “greatest” in history, it does effectively verify his mention on this

2873:

My interpretation of the quote is entirely different, but I'm not going to insert my original research any more than anyone else is allowed to. My take is that Ali is saying that kids naturally seek to be with others who look like them. This isn't an endorsement of segregation, but rather an

2334:. I have no POV on this; I am just trying to make a better article. You may be right that some people with an agenda are trying to add POV to the article. This does not mean that everything they want to add is necessarily wrong. This particular point is well sourced, interesting, and material. 3722:

In boxing, "orthodox" usually means a right-handed stance. Most fighters use this stance, so it's the norm. I believe that is what the info box means when it says "orthodox." However, the usage of "unorthodox" in the text probably means that Ali's style of boxing was unusual. So his stance is

3462:

Are you sure about this? Ali-Wepner took place in Richfield, Ohio. I don't think Stallone, who was a struggling actor at the time in, I think, New York (or L.A.) traveled to Ohio to watch the fight. Every version I heard was that Stallone scraped together some money to go see a closed circuit

3267:

And from the Holmes quote and the Woroner/NCR 315 analysis, you can clearly see that Jack Dempsey is also often viewed in the same light as Marciano, Louis and Ali. However, I do understand his exclusion due to a lack of concrete evidence to substantiate such a belief. He has nothing like the

3263:

Yes, I understand that this article is about Ali. I am merely suggesting that if Joe Louis is included, than Marciano should also be mentioned alongside of him. His outstanding record is just as strong of an indicator as a tile awarded by the International Boxing Research Organization or Ring

1544:

Stevietheman, please quit making unsupported revisions. Saying that it is "widely known" Ali is the best HW champ is a evasion of the NPOV rules of this site. To claim otherwise is to either purposely be ignoring the rules or be ignorant of boxing history. As I referenced in one of my many

982:

I don't have any definitive proof, but I'm a Seventh-Day Adventist and they attribute some importance to living healthily. That isn't to say that it's doctrine to be vegetarian-some Adventists eat "clean" meats but a guy I worked with at La Sierra University used to work at another Adventist

4468:

So, does he reject the NOI now after converting in 1975? What are his views on them now? Also, what are his views of Malcolm X now? Is their a book documentary or book on this or can you give me some references here? I think these things need to be under the religion section of the article.

5001:

Not true. There is no linear heavyweight championship, not even when Ali was in his pomp. The idea of the linear champion is a boxer who wins the championship by beating the previous champion and then he loses to the next champion and so on. The line of men who beat the men was broken when

496:

On that general topic, there is quite a bit of undocumented assertion in the article of the type strongly discouraged by Wiki's NPOV policy. (Wiki calls them "weasel words" but I don't like the term, as it sounds too negative and implies intentional misrepresentation.) There is almost no

5026:

boxed for the vacant championship. Again neither was the legitimate linear champion as they hadn't beaten Rocky. So by Ali's era the linear championship had already become defunct. Saying "nearly every champion" is a complete fudge and undermines the whole idea of the linear championship.

4664:

So, when I saw video games and comic books listed as items of pop culture quite sensibly I felt that trading cards and autographs meet that standard easily. If cards and autos can't be discussed, much to the benefit of a vast community, then the silly video/comics references must go too.

1474:

There is a lot of dispute about wheter Ali or Louis should be rated as the greatest heavyweight of all time, so for anyone to write that either is "widely regarded" to be the best is false. And this unsupported assertion should certainly not be included in the introduction to the article.

439:

the fight, it's not even very clear whether the Superman Ali defeated is the real one, rather than Bundini Brown (Kal and Bundini had changed places to fool the aliens, but whether that was before or after the fight between Superman and Muhammad Ali is not revealed) (Have the book here).

1562:

Furthermore, when you revert my revisions you also restore a passage I removed about the first Liston fight being "widely regarded" (there are those weasel words again) as a fix. That statement is certainly false. If you insist on reverting my edits, at least don't revert that one.

1664:

anywhere from a 30 second to a five minute break because of this situation, when in fact Ali got about a 6 second break because of it, and the fight was resumed. This can be confirmed by actually watching the fight, which is shown on ESPN Classic every so often, but here is a link:

3783:

rather than give a clear cause, such as "Freddie Pacheco left Ali's team in the late 1970s after it became clear that boxing was taking its toll on the fighter and when his warnings that Ali should retire were ignored." This information should be either revised or deleted as well.

4996:

To date, he remains the only man to have won the linear heavyweight championship three times (the linear title is recognized by tracing an - almost - unbroken lineage of titleholders going back over 100 years, with nearly every champion defeating the previous titleholder in the

754:

I have read an article upon the visit of Ali to the Soviet Union in April 1978 (Tashkent), wherein he had been quoted as praising the Soviet social and political system, including lack of unemployment and racial discrimination. Is the quote genuine, or was it a propaganda snip?

2285:

From the original article that the three suspected sock's have been adding, it gives a clear indication that Ali was a racist with how the "Sunni Muslim philosophy contributes to his belief in segregation." I have yet to see that in the article, or any mention; this blatant

1027:

this is in reference to the "Retirement" section. If this refers to MA watching a game of Australian Football in 1996, it seems pretty inconsequential, and potentially should be removed. At the very least, I would think it should be corrected (or removed until corrected?)

329:

Ali's story on the fate of his 1960 Olympic gold medal has wavered over the years. Recently, he's been more likely to say that it was simply lost. Might be worth noting alongside the story of it being tossed in the Ohio River, if someone can find something definitive.

492:

Did a short paragraph on the Wepner fight. According to Stallone, Wepner and not Chuvalo was the primary inspiration for Rocky -- afaik, the main person who claimed that the Chuvalo fight played a major factor in "Rocky" was Chuvalo himself. I cited authority for it.

497:

documentation of facts, and a great deal of opinion that is unattributed. I realize that lack of attribution usually comes from the amount of time it takes to run down sources and deal with Wiki's Byzantine referencing system, but some work is badly needed on this.

1860:

The Louis article does have a footnote that references the IBRO ranking of Louis as the greatest, but perhaps a separate section could be created for him, too. Or once the Ali section is fleshed out, it could just be moved (with a few tweaks) to the Louis article.

5255:

Okay, this is not really a clean reference and probably something better could be found: "Then, on April 28, 1967, citing his religious beliefs, Ali refused induction into the U.S. Army at the height of the war in Vietnam...Ali was stripped of his championship."

1574:

Thank you for writing a novel on the subject. At any rate, we can state with full factuality that there is dispute between various ranking lists where some place Ali as the greatest of all time and others that do not. And the same applies to Joe Louis. Right?

1842:

Would you like me to add the citations that I just gave to the article? I don't think the article is claiming that Ali was the best, it's acknowledging that many say he was the best. The Joe Louis article does the same thing.-unsigned 4:34 PM, December 4, 2006

2363:

Even if stripped down to the straight quote, it is libelous in that it colors Ali's religious beliefs in a narrow, biased manner. It isn't even clear exactly what Ali means. Therefore, it is muddled! This text is simply not going to stay. Time to move on.

4151:

I changed two blockquotes into inline quotations on the "Vietnam War nearly ends career" section. I did so because blockquotations are used only if the cited text takes four lines or more, and neither quotation took this long. For more information see

353:

There should be something about the gold medal. There is an account in his autobiography (The Greatest - I think) plus the replacement of it during half time of a Dream Team basketball game during the 1996 Olympics. How can these not rate a mention?

739:

Just added the link to Ali's maternal Irish roots. Does anyone else know anything about Abe Grady's life in America, and the subsequent history of his family? The people in Ireland by the way were thrilled to bits when the heard about the connection.

4101:

I located my copy of "The Greatest: My On Story" by Ali, with Richard Durham (this is the version published in the UK in 1976, by Mayflower books). The story of the "almost cancellation" of the first Liston fight is detailed on pages 121-138 of that

1936:

He is mentioned in the first paragraph alongside Joe Frazier and George Foreman. But I can't find any reference to thsi person, let alone having any contact with Muhammed Ali. Is there any reason why he has such a prominent position in thsi article?

1807:

Mark Kram, Angelo Dundee and others rank Ali #1. I know for a fact that Max Kellerman ranks Ali the #1 Heavyweight all time but I don't have a citation, perhaps someone else can find one. Boxrec.com has him ranked as the #1 all time Heavyweight:

2567:

The only rationale behind placement of this text is to exert a bias against Ali and his religious beliefs through misuse of a quote. Therefore, it will be summarily removed on a continuous basis. The matter is closed as far as I'm concerned.

1856:

Cool. I just think that if one article calls one the best, then the other article should say the same for the other, or neither should. Seems fair this way, maybe the Louis article can have a similar section?-unsigned 4:40 PM, December 4, 2006

1737:

Can we have the birth dates of Ali's his wives and children? As well as what are they up to now? Ali's relationships appear to be important and it would be nice to know more on his families. Thank you. Shikha17 08:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

1498:

I have to disagree with you. One, only one can be the "greatest." And if one is widely regarded as such, the other cannot be widely regarded as such. Furthermore, this "widely regarded" language is a violation of the Wiki POV requirements:

4669:

This sort of if-then "analysis" is not going to win you any friends here. You are conflating the dispute over your content with unrelated content that has existed for some time and was not (until now) in dispute. Your most recent changes are

4689:

It might also be of benefit to be on the lookout for individuals who can contribute and welcome them rather than this dismissive, uneven and otherwise exclusive approach that seems in stark contrast to the Knowledge (XXG) mission statement.

3779:

personally think the sentence should be removed. Ali's few subpar performances towards the latter end of his career can easily be attributed to lack of training and/or overconfidence due to the fact he was the world champion at the time.

3020:

It is not strange in the least. He merely reverted the removal of the quote, as the stated reasons for the removal were far from obvious. He explicitly explained that in the edit summary, something none of the other accounts bothered to

5443:

I just caught his record down in the tabled format 56wins, 37 knockouts, and 5 losses. That table thing is extremely advanced for me. Since, I am a new user to wikipedia, can his record be placed elsewhere in the article for readability?

1832:

article at least takes time to cite the notion that Louis is the greatest. If something similar can be done here, then I'd be all for it. As it is, however, simply saying "many regard Ali as the greatest" is indeed a use of weasel words.

625:

is not, strictly speaking, regarded as one of the Muslim sects, and this was three years previous to Ali's second conversion) qualifies, but I think that it would since it was made as a pilgrimage it would count. I can't find what month

3596:

To me, Muhammad Ali is the Greatest Boxer who ever lived. Want more proof? Try 1974, Now Ali was 7 years removed from being stripped of the Heavyweight Title because he stood up for what was right for him. When he returned to boxing in

958:

the exact date of his marriage to Veronica and the exact dates of his divorces from Belinda and Veronica, please feel free to plug them into the Wikitable in the personal section. There is a great deal of conflicting information out

5500:

portrayed as a "hate group" by most of the media.' Why would it be surprising that a man named Muhammad Ali was a Muslim? We should call him "Clay" until he changes his name, then say how he changed his name, then call him "Ali."

4760:

support. To suggest the Court acted on that basis, and not according to the law, amounts to an attack on the integrity of the Justices. If it is true, it needs to be supported by citation to the source material. - John Paul Parks

1590:

like arguing Mozart vs. Beethoven; it would be false to say that either one is regarded by all people as the best composer of all time; but it would not be wrong to say that many people would say that of one or the other.-11/28/06

5514:

I've taken the liberty of changing the article so as to use his birth name prior to his conversion. Please read and see if you find it confusing. If so, feel free to revert, but I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this.

1756:

He announced his conversion shortly after the Liston fight in 1964, and presumably converted some short while before that. Try searching for "Black Muslims", as they weren't using the "Nation of Islam" name so much in the 1960s.

591:

I dont know when, but rest assured that he has. It would be funny otherwise - Ali can afford a ticket, he is a devout muslim and he has been to Saudi Arabia several times. If he has not made the Hajj, then we are on to a scoop. /

3535:

A separate section dealing with Ali's unorthodox boxing style would, I think, add a tremendous amount to this article. There are bits and peices sprinkled about dealing with it, but there just isn't enough here about his style.

1068:, but the shortage of references would prevent it passing. Could the people who wrote this article please add in their sources, preferably as inline references? Such an important person deserves a good quality article. Thanks! 571:

HIS STYLE Mohammad Ali has a highly unorthodox style for a heavy weight boxer. He carried his hands to his sides rather than to his face to defend him from his opponents blows. He punched to the head unlike most boxers. added by

4527:

In the statistics box at the top of the page he is described as "multi-racial". There is no citation given for this claim. If he is multiracial then I think more detail as regards his heritage should be given in the "Biography"

651:

He knocked out Liston in the first round of their rematch in Lewiston, Maine on May 25, 1965, albeit controversially; as few observers saw the "phantom punch" that floored Liston --Can someone explain better that the wiki did??

3370:

Organizationâ€™s ranking, and Marciano should be admitted due to his recordâ€™s ranking, the Woroner/NCR 315 ranking, and the Holmes quote(which also lists Ali, Louis, and even Jack Dempsey as the other possible contenders).

224:. I've got decent sources on most of these, but the article doesn't need added content nearly as much as it needs a change in structure. One example: Ali's second religious conversion was previously mentioned in two spots (see 3894:

Muhammad Ali's article's name has changed to Muhammad Ali (boxador), The updated link to catalan wikipedia must be "Muhammad Ali (boxador)". Please, someone change it in the languages link's list, cos the source is protected.

3565:

any information about their mothers? What were the circumstances of his forming a relationship with their mothers? Were they women he met through his involvement with NoI? In his capacity as a layperson? or as a minister?

3474:

I saw a book in a bookshop today entitled 'Rocky: The Ultimate Guide' by Edward Gross and as I was browsing through it it quotes Stallone as saying he attended a close circuit broadcast of the fight, not the actual fight.

3843:, Spinks' cornerman Georgie Benton walked out of the ring after the 6th round, later commenting that he did not think the fight was on the level. Ali was given a 15-round decision over the disoriented Spinks. Then on 783:

A great man like Ali deserves a great article. There are all kinds of errors- misspellings, factual errors, syntax errors, punctuation errors, etc.-in this article. Someone needs to get it right and then protect it.

424:

The article doesn't explain where the famous "float like a butterly, sting like a bee" quote comes from, and it's quite hard to look that kind of thing up on the internet definitively. Also, wasn't there a mid-1970s

2512:

You directly took text, manipulated by inserting wording that would lead others to believe he was a segregationist, and then continued to insert it in via socks that circumvents several policies on Knowledge (XXG).

4539:

is part "Irish" and that "his Irish ancestor Abe Grady married an African American woman their son also married an African-American and one of the daughters of that union was Ali's mother, named Odessa Lee Grady".

1177:

way he did (and that it became iconic). The only thing shown in that picture is Ali finishing his punch and pulling back; there's no taunting that took place and to suggest otherwise is inaccurate and misleading.

4819:

I have seen this claim , "Joe Frazier, who had become champion during Ali's absence from the ring, often gave financial assistance to Ali during this time." on a number of occasions do we have any source for it?

1958: 1518:

Well, I know and everyone knows that the text is correct, isn't POV, and for the good of the article, I'm going to keep restoring it. It's unfortunate that you want to keep removing it, but I'm not backing down.

2644:. The article does not say "Ali believes that some forms of segregation are part of the natural order." Clearly, this is an attempt at an anti-Islamic screed, and that's a *very* big deal. Now, it's closed. 3991:

That same edit put the words ".........which being an old farmboy has always made me glad..." into Malcolm X's mouth which I couldn't find anywhere on the internet. That makes me think thats a suspicious edit.

634:. For the time being, I think it would be safe to call the '72 trip hajj. I can't find any proof that he's returned to Mecca since, but he may well have. It's highly unlikely that he made the hajj before '72. 3625:

Ali is the author of the worlds shortest poem, although he is given little or no credit for it. He delivered it during a Harvard University graduation speech. Officially it was untitled, though entitling it

1624:

out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards,

4713:

Your identity is still unclear. You claim to be a publisher (or perhaps you meant author). What have you written that makes you an authority on Ali? Surely you can provide a bibliography of your works.

1818:"Avoid weasel words" is a guideline, not a policy as you keep stating in your comments. All guidelines can be overridden with community agreement. There is no factual dispute to the text in question. 1545:

revisions you have changed, look at the Joe Louis talk page for a discussion of the greatest HW champ. To save you the time, I'll just cut and paste what someone on that page put up (from Cox's Corner

460:

The saying refered to his style/technique. His speed and grace in boxing, being light on his feet ("float like a butterfly...") and his quick, punishing jabs ("...sting like a bee"). Hope that helps. -

4048:

Champion title because he was seen with a black man that peacefully defended the rights of people with color in the US and later worldwide" is a pretty harsh speculation and should NOT pass unedited.

1718:

No. It was Chuck wepner who was the real life inspiration for Rocky. Both Ali and bNorton were well regarded fighters. The film Rocky was about the rise of a relative unknown who got a titlke shot.

1815:

I would suggest that wikipedia state that many experts regard Ali to be the best Heavyweight of all time, or remove that statement about Louis from Louis' article.-unsigned 4:09 PM, December 4, 2006

1357:

There should be a mention of his autobiography and I think he also starred in a biographical movie playing himself. There are so many documentaries about him but some references should be included.

4621:

Also, if you're going to spout off about how you've "published about Ali for over a decade", your real identity (or at least your pen name) would help, instead of just hiding behind an IP address.

2214:

accurately. As for the article, after reading the paragraph you wanted to insert, you conveniently left out the paragraphs following up to that. How nice; try harder next time to push your agenda.

3609:

earned a place in boxing history for Ali, he won a lot of sports awards that year including this one. His regaining of the Heavyweight Title in 1974 earned Ali an award for Athlete of the Year by

5413:"In what is regarded by many as the greatest prizefight of all time (the 'Thrilla in Manila'), Ali was declared the victor when Frazier's corner called a halt to the bout after 14 brutal rounds" 3006:

But it's strange that Uucp would back the exact same libelous language. How could two separate people make the same baseless argument for a opinion-based commentary added to a selective quote?

1784:

Nation of Islam was a name that was still being used by the so called "Black Muslims." It was just the media that portrayed us as "Black Muslims" when really a Muslim has no identifying colour.

4488:(brother of Muhammad Ali) into Muhammad's article due to lack of information to cite into the article for Rahman. First the article needs refernces before being merged into Muhammad's article. 3268:

greatest heavyweight record in history or a title issued from a major boxing institution like the International Boxing Research Organization or Ring Magezine to show for this perceived status.

5047:

lit the torch to start the games". It is no longer a debate, it did not happen. His medal was simply misplaced. Reference and live film of this can be seen 55 seconds into this Youtube clip.

4618:

You do have a point about video games and other references, and perhaps those should be trimmed down. Doing so, however, does not militate for the inclusion of trading cards and autographs.

146:

It seems that these two movies based on his life should be included...when doing a search for merely "Ali" you don't get a disambiguation page either. You have to know to search Ali (film).

1226:

First is says that Ali lost to Spinks, then it describes him winning. Presumably, two fights are being conflated? I know nothing of the history here; could somebody who does, please fix it?

4779:

Do we not all agree that Ali was the best? Stop arguing and put references in. I am totally shocked that such a famous person does not have a GA article or an FA rating. Read the books. --

5284:

rope a dope ref:"It was in this fight that Ali employed a strategy once used by former boxing great Archie Moore. Moore called the maneuver 'the turtle' but Ali called it 'rope-a-dope.'"

1471:

Muhammad Ali's page says that he is widely regarded to be the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, while Joe Louis's page says the same thing. Something needs to be fixed. -Slash-

3217:“I can’t just say Ali was the greatest because there were so many great fighters out there. I can’t say he was greater than Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, and everyone else.” -Larry Holmes 3366:

Either we remove the entire section by 1) denying a Marciano mention 3) removing the Joe Louis reference 3) and relocating Ring Magazineâ€™s ranking of Ali to the top of the article

3044:

Your biased interpretation of a source is original research and therefore it's not allowed. Beyond that, calling it "critical" material for an overview of Muhammad Ali is laughable.

709:

But there is no one with the name Anthony Pratt on the NFL's hall of fame website. pro-football-reference.com and databasefootball.com do not list any players with that name either.

5098:

athletes today "are standing on the shoulders of a true giant" - author on Travis Green's show 09/22/2008 I really believe it will be very easy to improve references to this article

4320:

Thank you for all the great input. I wasn't totally certain before submitting that the article was ready for GA, but this information should help us take the article there. Cheers!

4709:

Along these lines, no one's hiding behind an IP address as you foolishly stated. Knowledge (XXG) assigns that moniker until you officially register which I did nearly immediately.

4172:

Here are Ali's quotes that were added to the article. Normally we don't have quotes sections because that's what WikiQuote is for... we can easily provide a link to that project.

2159:

The opinion "his belief in segregation" is straight libel and the quote's placement in a section about Islam makes it contextually libelous. This text will simply not be allowed.

3659:

i am not sure which poem but that poem (Ali's) is a variation of another poem. I can't remember who off the top of my head. Ali's poem is "Me We" i am pretty sure, not "Me WHEE"

1792:

Once again there is a movement to have inserted that "many regard Ali as the greatest heavyweight of all time." This is a violation of the weasel words rule in Knowledge (XXG) (

1902:

I apologize. There was an IP-hopping vandal removing random chunks out of the article right before you came along, and I got triggerhappy. I'm sorry for targeting your edits.

4304:

Needs a strong PoV check, parts of the article is written from a fan perpective, sentences like "Cassius Clay indeed "Shook up the world!" as he promised." should be removed.

2114:

Point taken, but it would be helpful if you place part of the reasons for the change in the edit summary rather than leaving it blank. I almost reverted it because of that.

512:

changes you feel are appropriate. In mentionioning this, I note that the editor who made the change also added references to a white power group elsewhere in Knowledge (XXG)

2067: 1085:

Nice article, but I was surprised not to find a couple of noteworthy events. If no one else can supply reliable reports, perhaps I will do research and make the entries:

1202:

Aside from having no idea what a "computerized fight" would be in 1969, it's also bad grammar (Ali fought... in computerized fight...) Not "in (A) computerized fight"?

1656:

I don't think there is a connection between boxing and parkinson's disease. For example Bruno Lauzi was a singer, not boxer, and yesterday he died because of this ill.

2403:

when several anonymous IP addresses and several users (whose edit was the same body of text over and over with no discussion prior) vandalised the article, violating

4976:

In the biography, the brief mention of his sentence for refusing to serve in Vietnam omits any mention of where he was imprisoned and the dates of his imprisonment.

2826:

What original research is there in the article? What "speculative comments" How is the material in the article "out of context"? Are we talking about the same text?

3209:

prominence of the belief that Ali is the “greatest,” just as this neutral article should acknowledge how Dempsey and Marciano are often considered the “greatest.”

1922:

No problem, just wanted to fix the page, and I did not know how to communicate with you since I believed the comments section would be enough of an explanation. --

2631:

which publication dotes on Ali, and we have to assume they're quoting him fairly. Unless you know Ali better than Bingham does, this material should be included.

1485:

I'm restoring it. Both can be widely regarded to be the greatest, and both are. However, I will leave the six to three fix -- not sure how I let that one slide.

831:

I agree. I'm not a very seasoned editor, but I think Ali himself would disagree with the "Real Name" line in the infobox. -Spudcrazy 00:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

561:

was circular. Unfortunatly that was due to a bit of a mess when I was merging two articles about him. The link works now, and it seems to be relevant... Cheers --

3407:

I'm with Stevie. Let's just mention Ali's ranking here and move the other list of greatest heavyweight champions elsewhere. The question is, where do we put it?

2978: 2864:

activities in the section talking about his Nation of Islam involvement. Definitely not the "Conversion to Sunni Islam" section, which is complely unrelated.--

3167:

No problem. You should register an account with Knowledge (XXG) and contribute. It's actually quite simple and I can help out with any questions you may have.

1457:

The quote about no vietnamese calling him a nigger is actually a popular misquoting, according to Wikiquote. I'll add this information, if no one oppose it. --

183:

Regarding the Egyptian leader, there are various spellings including Muhammad Ali, Mohammed Ali, Mehemet Ali, Mehmet Ali, right now I will change the links to

2968:

is the same person as the one behind the other accounts inserting the quote. Unlike the others, he has a significant edit history, and a more mature style.--

2185:

Third, what is "contextual libel"? I have never heard the term. Google has zero hits. I can't imagine there is a wikipedia policy against it, whatever it is.

862:

like didnt he keep beating his opponent in a (professional) fight whan his opponent kept callin him cascius clay, cuz ali refuses to recognize this name!!! --

401:

I third the motion. I think someone who is a cross between P.T. Barnum and Al Sharpton wrote that first paragraph. Certainly "The Greatest" deserves better.

5380:"On February 25, 1964...two days later, Clay shocked the boxing establishment again by announcing that he had accepted the teachings of the Nation of Islam" 1017:"NFL Hall of Famer" Anthony Pratt does not exist? There is an AFL (Australian) Hall of Famer named Bob Pratt, but no Pratt at all in the NFL Hall of Fame? 3390:

together. This article needs to stay focused on Ali, unless, as I said before, there is a clear, referenced contention for a top position in some ranking.

5463:

Shouldn't we call him "Clay" for the period before he converted to Islam and changed his name? It's weird to talk about him as "Ali" in his early years.

2162:

Further, it is known that Uucp, AnimeSouth and various IP's are colluding on this libel against Ali and causing other disruption in the Knowledge (XXG).

1621: 3898: 3666: 3633: 3492: 3325:

rather obvious that doing comparative ranking reviews in the individual boxer articles is unsustainable, in that it is a source for perpetual conflict.

4075:

you can compare boxers, or athletes in general, from different eras. But Ali must have had a higher world profile than any other sports personality.

3759:

The date in which Muhammad Ali was diagnosed with Parkinson's has not been properly specified and instead has been referred to as "the early 1980s."

1957:

Wallace Ritchie, a supposed opponent of Ali's, into the article. Wallace Ritchie appears in none of my sports almanacs and a Google search turns up

1425:

Can someone get a diffrent picture of Muhammad Ali. The one that is up is a old version of him. Wouldn't someone regonize him as his younger self?

3695:

Just a quick note, in the info box it says that his style is orthodox, yet the first line of the text says that he had a highly unorthodox style.

349:

I know Hunter Thompson claimed that Ali threw it in a river in one of his books (Songs of the doomed?) - if true, doesn't that warrent a mention?

5315:

ref: "who was named after...": "His birth name was Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr., named after famed Kentucky abolitionist Cassius Marcellus Clay."

3950:

album as 1963). I have seen one soul website quote the release date for the single as 1966, but I remember hearing both the Ali version and the

2248:

Nowhere in the article does it show Ali saying he believes in segregation. This text is a clear attack on Ali and his religion, which violates

1808: 769:

Please provide reason before deleting my bit on his involvement with the LA Marathon. Nobody informed me of the reason why that was deleted. --

3601:, he was rusty after a 3 and a half year layoff and he had to regain the heavyweight title the hard way and my god he did. His victories over 3304:

may be a good idea to mention only this and not worry about debating the issue on the Ali page (or the Louis page or the Marciano page, etc.).

3249:, work on his article, rather than trying to compose comparative text in this one. This article is about Ali, and should concentrate on Ali. 4037:

near cancellation of the Liston fight is detailed in the autobiography "The Greatest" (with Richard Durham). Someone needs to check, though.

2105: 1409: 1268: 1249: 1178: 1122: 1095:

MA throwing his Olympic gold medal away into a river as a protest of American racism. MA being supplied a replacement medal many years later.

925: 558: 4827: 3637: 3504: 2623:

quotes Ali saying something segregationist, and a good friend of Ali confirming that he has some segregationist views. If this were in the

1046: 127: 112: 93: 850:

at the time. However, since he did get the proper name chance with the proper documentation, you could, I guess, call it his "real" name -

909:

It says that Muhammad Ali had a Unothorodox type of boxing but on his stats it says he had an Otherodox type. Please Discuss I dont know

5206: 5198: 5028: 4957: 4874: 4588: 4561: 4511: 4223: 3902: 1719: 1376: 879:

Some smartass decided to put Muhammad Ali 'the gay wanker of all time'. Just to point out to the mods who should be watchin this stuff.

311: 4389:

seeing the second part of the quote. The (first part of the) quote was worldwide news at the time, so surely is not too hard to source.

5398: 5365: 5274: 5245: 5135: 5057: 4853: 4800: 4135: 3158: 3103: 3079: 2048: 1705: 1613: 1441: 243:

written by someone who doesn't understand that a Muslim is someone who is a follower of Islam? Or is there something I'm missing? --

4761: 3379:

I like how the site is presented now. However, I wouldn’t mind seeing Ring Magazine’e ranking of Ali at the top to proved emphasis.

1773: 687: 667: 5347:

regarding the who thingie: "When Clay was 12 years old, he took up boxing under the tutelage of Louisville policeman Joe Martin. "

5485: 4744: 3293:

That sounds like a reasonable soulution. I think I came across a similar page at one point, but I was unable to locate it again.

2905: 1150:, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section. 724: 4410:

The full quote is based on a verifiable reference. Unless a counter-reference can be found, it probably needs to stay as-is.

3352:

Should we put something on the page listing heavyweight champions? I think this may be the proper forum for discussing this.

1950:

With regard to "Wallace Ritchie" ladies, and gentlemen, we appear to have a hoaxer in our midst. An anonymous editor has been

1600:

I've started an approach that may apply to Knowledge (XXG)'s Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on

706:

including his appearance at the 1998 AFL Grand Final, where NFL Hall of Famer Anthony Pratt recruited him to watch the game."

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It may be a minor episode in a great life, but it is a part of the picture, and I put in a mention of Ali's 1960s release of

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Get off your horses, boys. Your behavior thus far seems akin to a stock message board, not a community information source.

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I believe that the edited text we are working towards on the main page is an improvement. Your nastiness above, however, is

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Your account has to be active for four days and make at least 10 edits efore you can edit semi-protected pages. Please see

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Man, that first paragraph is awful. It's so repetitive and replete with bad grammar it needs to be completely rewritten.

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Please take this argument into consideration when deciding what information you will include in the article. Thank you.

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computarized fight!!! if you dont know things than DONT make statements, cuz You or Us dont no what Youre talkin about!!!

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as a single. I do not remember the precise date (though I was able to check the release date of the "I am the Greatest"

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is violated as well, as the quote doesn't even back up the opinion you are desperately trying to keep in the article.

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I added a section about Ali's ranking in heavyweight picture. I think your citations would add a lot to that section.

1647:

It seems as if whomever wrote this is like "Muhammad Ali won, but..." but the "but..." is a very one sided statement.

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Needs a bit of a trimming his biography section, needs more info about his legacy (which is poorly sourced anyways).

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The verification above is not really substantive enough, but the bottom line is that if you want better coverage of

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I'm reading the page as someone interested in Ali and not someone with much knowledge of him, so when I want to put

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Just checked the article, and there's already a link to WikiQuote. Please feel free to add quotes there. Thanks!

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in there somewhere, I don't know where it would go. I would appreciate someone more knowledgeable adding him in. -

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I am removing the repeated sections in the article and someone keeps reverting it back to the previous state. --

1796:). If you are going to claim Ali as the greatest, then provide some proof. If not, this wording does not belong. 1747:

Mohammed Ali in February of '64, but does anyone know for how long prior to this that he had held these beliefs?

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claims to be of Ali in Mecca on a "New Year's" (sic) trip, which fits. He appears to be barefoot and wearing the

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spin-off comic in which Ali and Superman had a fight, and then teamed up to defeat... Mr Mykzlptzk (or whoever)?-

3835:, notable due to Spinks' lack of professional experience (only seven fights going). In the September rematch in 2179:

First, I have no idea who AnimeSouth or these other people are. Your accusation again me is nasty and unfounded.

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I notice that this article on a major sports figure only has two references. I would like to nominate this for

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At the very least, the specific nature of your claims demands verification through proper sources. Please see

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Merge or remove the Ranking in heavyweight history subsection, unless it could be expanded more than a sentence

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fought for the vacant title but neither was the linear champ as neither had beaten Tunney. 30 years later in

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leaving it to someone who has actually read a book about Ali or is a big fan of him (I know nothing of Ali).

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When you take it out of context, add in your own speculative comments, and pass it off as original research.

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using a sockpuppet, or ever making an edit to advance a POV. My only interest here is improving the article.

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http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?nationality=&sex=M&division=Heavyweight&status=E&SUBMIT=Go

1723: 1657: 1437: 835:"Birth name"? "Given name"? What fits best? Or why not just put "Muhammad Ali (Cassius Marcellus Clay)"? 315: 5386: 5353: 5262: 5233: 5123: 5053: 4953: 4870: 4867:

who ever wrote this is a complete dork he was not born on 1942 he was born on 1942 i know he is mt uncle.

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comes to mind) there's really nothing to be said here that couldn't also be said of those other athletes.

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Second, I do not believe you can libel somebody by quoting their own words, which is all this article does.

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I intend to expand on Ali's professional career soon, but obviously if anyone else wants to then go ahead.

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I dont understand the importance that a small child has been named after him. Can we remove this part?--

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Please finish this off - there are some good links on about.com to provide source material, and also on

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No problem for me. I just wanted to say that there is a general reference to the incident in that book,

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I had noticed that as well, but I don't know enough about boxing or Ali's style to reconcile the two.

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This is a very minor edit, but on the Rocky DVD, Stallone talks about seeing the Ali vs. Wepner fight

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From the article, it does not state that he is a "segregationist." Please quote where it states that.

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Ok, I'm removing those words myself since noone has bothered giving his/her expertise in the subject.

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Does anybody know where I can download a large version of Ali standing over his defeated opponent? ?

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Found and removed as irrelevant another reference to this from 129.24.95.222 in early part of page.

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opinion on who won the fight doesn't belong in the article, but neither does this person's.-1/18/06

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If we do not have any definitive proof then I say that we remove the claim until we do have proof.

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It's poorly sourced for it's length, only 16 ciations in a article that is about 50 KB in length.

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The link makes no mention of "Joshua A. Logue" (who he?) - was this just a test/minor vandalism?

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Named Junior after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., who was named for the 19th century

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Named Junior after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., who was named for the 19th century

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he wasn't. don't get me wrong, I am a huge ali fan but he wasn't and he even said he wasn't.

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as that has more links in the Knowledge (XXG), later we can move or redirect it if necessary.

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Okay, I (I being the guy who posted the comment above) added his birthplace. That's a start.

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Yes, well, that goes both ways. Your rapid fire reverts do not suggest a collegial attitude.

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Okay now the article seems POV slanted towards Ali, not that I care, I just don't like POV.

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Hi, can anyone please provide sources that prove that Muhammad Ali is vegetarian? Thanks. --

508:

I'd like to alert those more familiar with both this page and to Ali to the following edit:

4186:"To be a great champion you must believe you are the best. If you're not, pretend you are." 3031: 2934: 2641: 2420: 2416: 1147: 1130: 284: 5480: 5478:

It's probably more confusing and awkward to switch around in the middle of the article. --

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Can someone explain why this is important: "a small child have all been named after him."

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Casual reader opinion: it would be nice to have some more info about the present-day Ali

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and your use of terms like "anecdotal" and "silly" are suggestive of pushing an agenda.

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Can someone please give me the link to the article or source that says this? (Unsigned)

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This is a direct quotation from the January 18th issue of the Columbia Daily Tribune.

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I failed this article for several reasons, and it will take some time to get it fixed

4191:"If my fans think I can do everything I say I can do, then they're crazier than I am." 5301:

I have to believe that at least 150 references can easily be found for this article.

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He won the gold medal in the 175lb division: "he won a gold medal in the 175-pound "

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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Muhammad_Ali&diff=next&oldid=130217354

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Can we get a list of people in Ali's "entourage" as it is mentioned in the article?

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The aspect that Ali became a political symbol for blacks is very little mentioned...

621:. There's possibly a doctrinal issue of whether a hajj made previous to conversion ( 5023: 5011: 3579:

What were the events precipitating his apostasy from NoI and taking up Sunni Islam?

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and your IPs all create the same edits, by reinserting vandalism that goes against

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http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D01EEDD1639F932A15754C0A960958260

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http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E7DC173BF93AA2575AC0A962948260

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You know, you could add in some information... it is a project open to anyone :)

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page: "...the removal of reliably sourced critical material is not permitted." -

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Last edited at 00:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 19:59, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/cover/news/1999/12/02/awards/ali2.html

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http://www.saddoboxing.com/3416-boxing-history-cassius-clay-vs-henry-cooper.html

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To answer this, Muhammad Ali was given to him by Elijah Muhammad, leader of the

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http://images.si.com/inside_game/leigh_montville/news/1999/12/08/montville_mali/

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SI said he was the most overrated athlete of the century. I want this included.

46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

4292:

The last sentence of in retirement should be moved to the personal life section

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Ali would retain his title until a February 1978 loss to 1976 Olympic champion

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said that he wanted to visit Mecca, but he certainly didn't make the hajj with

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I have changed word Orthodox Sunni to sect. there is nothing Orthodox in it .

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Um, you guys have all the power as any other person, so, um, fix it yourself -

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orthodox but his style is unorthodox. I changed the infobox to reflect this.

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in the future, please introduce new materials here if they are controversial.

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Why is there no mention of Ali's arrest after refusing to fight in Vietnam?

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I have removed this sneaky vandalism. Thanks for letting us know about it.

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I would say that the whole paragraph is POV, unreferenced, and should go.

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Needs to be some information here. I'd add some, but I don't know any :(

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best HW of all time" would meet Knowledge (XXG)'s neutrality standards.

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himself says the same thing; in fact that article has it at 4-5 seconds.

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dammit, it was a FICTIONAL fight, ok, produced by a computer, and it was

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version of the single played on the same episode of the UK BBC program "

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being the last and true prophet of islam, and they dont even follow the

5196:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/cover/news/1999/12/02/awards/

4196:"God gave me this illness to remind me that I'm not number One; he is." 3844: 272: 5319:

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761559538

5176:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/cover/news/1999/12/02/awards

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Poor prose thoughout, many grammar errors and one sentence paragraphs.

4554:

He's neither African-American nor Irish. He's clearly Scandinavian!

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