Talk:Music video/Archive 1

739:

market these on video cassette -- the so-called video album." This alleged to be late 1980 - or later 1980 than the release of the single that year. Then the claim "This was followed a year later by the first American video album...by Michael Cotten." I'm not against acknowledgement of all these landmarks, but preferably in chronological order, and with whatever caveats and credits belong. Why is Split Enz called "one of the first"? If we can't call them THE first, I'd be interested to know if something came earlier, even if it wasn't as successful. That's the difference between music biz promotion and encyclopedic history, here I would expect to read Split Enz was the first to have a hit off it, and Nesmith the first to win an award for it, but there was some independent bunch of guys who had done it earlier without fanfare. I do hope whoever does edit or rewrite this can retain the degree of detail in the various contributors' posts while correcting contradictions and giving it more of a chronological flow. Big job! Good luck!

502:

spot it by my description. Also, they played a tiny clip of it recently on FUSE in a commercial, (which is what made me think of it). I think it involves this jar of jelly or jam which is trying to get to the love of its life, (I think it's a her), and she is in love with peanut butter. However, the jams' parents forbid it. The parents try to stop them from being together, but in the end they get together anyway. I think there was bread involved in this somewhere, she might have been in love with bread and not peanut butter, I'm sorry I can't really remember clearly. If anyone knows the song, I'd really appreciate it, be it the name of the artist or the song. I'd even appreciate a place that might be helpful in finding this video, I checked google and yahoo and the site at the bottom of this page and found nothing. Thanks!

2095:

Christmas, with Bing Crosby. TV shows and television VARIETY shows affected music, the industry, and the development of music "videos" or film clips, such as The Ed Sullivan Show, The Lawrence Welk Show, American Bandstand, Soul Train, others, and certain TALK shows with music on them. Some TV episodes had nearly entire songs performed in them, similar to music videos, as did films. Heck, even Star Trek TOS had songs performed in certain episodes! Before "talkies", music was played or accompanied films. And then, before and during TV, film, and video, there was RADIO – sometimes with a printed accompaniment (non-moving pictures) – and before that was STAGE.

197:

contributors can be just as valid as the alleged MTV 'experts', more so in fact because I doubt anybody here is being paid by a record company to hype any corporate product. OTOH that doesn't excuse listing any old crap because it happens to be your favourite band or song, but actually exercising some discrimination as to whether a song/video is indeed groundbreaking/significant/notable or whatever, and I expect other wiki's to be as merciless as ever in their editing if contributions arn't coming up to scratch... Cheers

31: 1554:. The page was a rallying point for a recently blocked editor's socks, which is why there were so many reverts of different users. To be clear: I have no problem with splitting out part or the whole of the history section, but it should be named correctly, attributed and then summarized at this article. It should take considerably more effort than a copypaste move. 1389:

Coutdown, Sounds, Nightmoves, Rock Arena, Rock Around The World and even a brief revival of Australian Bandstand. Because of the demand for material to fill all this airspace, as well as Australia's more liberal TV content regulations, we also got to see a lot of British and European video that probably never got a run on MTV or the American networks.

1400:

I have not seen 'Shock Treatment' but I would suggest that its importance may be overrated in this article. Conversely, although I need to do more research to back it up, I also strongly feel that the centrality of "A Hard Day's Night" cannot be over-stated in terms of its influence on all subsequent

1392:

More generally, I also think this article needs further discussion of prominent/influential directors and production houses -- e.g. Propaganda Films (David Fincher et al) and significant video makers like Jankel & Morton, Richard Lowenstein, The Rich Kids, Michel GOndry etc. I also think it could

906:

Now, of course I don't recommend immediately changing the article to that version. However, I want us all to bear in mind that there's a great deal of work to be done here… In particular, it would be good to remove any uncited subjective phrases you can find, especially those along the lines of "Such

301:

No, I'm sure that was the first music video with an intro before the music. It was him and a couple other guys dressed up as space cowboys and the went into a tent, THEN the music started. All in all, TP was extremely influential in music in general and should be considered for this video. -Jwoof

1958:

In fact Abba's early music videos are closely related to Australia's radio show countdown, which back then lacked video material from bands and Abba was one the few international bands providing the complete material themselves, which led to them getting airtime on countdown (while having hardly any

996:

Should information from this film be included in this page? It isn't a single with a video like modern music videos (many on this article aren't), but it switches between concert footage from madison square garden and fictional scenes throughout, all to music, and it has some effects associated with

148:

I don't know if I'd call MTV experts at anything other than pandering to the lowest common denominator, but it's a good starting place. I don't think it's necessary to do any significant weeding on the list until it becomes too long, so I vote to let people add what they want for now, and weed only

129:

Hmmm, I don't think some of these are particularly significant - Californication , for instance, which isn't particularly interesting, whereas I would have included Michael Jackson's "Black or White" and its use of morphing. However, rather than arguing about this ad infinitum, are there experts in

535:

they showed up in 2000 or early 2001 i caught about 2 minutes of the music video.It had the band singing in a garage or shed (the music was hard rock).what got me about this video was that the building was slowly covered in bees or wasps whilst the band plays on. what i need to know is who the hell

443:

Excerpt from the MVPA main page:"The Music Video Production Association (MVPA) is a non-profit trade organization created to address the mutual concerns of its members in today's highly competitive, ever-changing music video industry." There's a .pdf attachement released every quarter year for the

215:

Surely the Hawaii sequences for Elvis Presley's 1973 concert special, Aloha From Hawaii, have got to rank among the earliest TRUE music videos. Perhaps they weren't promotional in nature, but the style is exactly in the style of the music video. When I watch my DVD of the original broadcast, I am

211:

Do we have any idea what the oldest music video would be? The Dylan one listed in '65 I believe.. The Beatles have a bunch from that year as well. They may have a couple from '64, I'll look into that. Any other old ones out there? Might be cool if we could list the first music video in the article.

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I'm wondering if there's any sources out there which can help to give this article more of an international perspective. After the rise of MTV, it's almost exclusively focused on America. In particular, I'm curious about the history of music videos in Asia and Latin America. When exactly did music

2130:

I'm not sure if it's been banned or censored, but I'm pretty sure this should be added to the article if it has (which is pretty likely). The whole video is based on... well, I'd better not say... but it's got some explicit stuff. (And for some reason, it doesn't say (Explicit) in the title of the

1525:

Interesting choice of words; I wish I could gratify The Beatles (BTW, the capitalisation of their name is widely accepted by most civilised peoples); whatever my personal opinion of them or their videos, I think the statements in the article are fair and are backed by appropriate citations. If you

832:

and nobody put it back in until I did it 7 days later. Over 20 edits have been done since then, each believing that the current version is a good one, thereby slowly forgetting that some good info was once there and got deleted. Therefore, it is needed that somebody watches this article regularly,

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My source was Pop Up Video, which is a source I doubt as ardently as you do. But if the reference was going to be there (and I'm often reticent to delete content), and I assume the initial contributor was making reference to Pop Up Video from memory, it might as well accurately reflect the source.

1826:

Is this not a candidate for one of the earliest music videos - at least in the sense we understand today (i.e. used on TV to promote the record). It's from 1962 and there doesn't seem to be anything earlier than that currently mentioned in the article aside from the Eurpean "video jukebox films".

501:

I was wondering if anyone could help me find the name and/or artist of a music video. It is "new," (within the last few years), it's definately not earlier than 1996 and it's probably more like 2000 or 2001... I don't remember the video too well but it was weird enough that if you know it, you'll

378:

I can't remember the last time I watched a music video, so I'm obviously no expert. However, I distinctly remember my parents getting bent out of shape whenever I watched a "music video" channel back in the 1968-1972 timeframe. The television program showed non-stop videos, but many were simply

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paragraph on MTV itself, and half of that is about Madonna! Surely we can beef up our coverage of what our own article calls the "golden era". This part needs work. Is it possible that some of the "Countdown" coverage is more appropriate in its own article? The way it is now, it sounds defensive.

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Good find. And surprising to read that this started as early as 1985! But let me add that, AFAIK, broadcasting music videos was never completely free - as stations showing music videos have to pay royalties for the audio portion of the programme, as any other radio station, right? So starting to

1388:

rather ahead of the game in this field. In the golden era of the early 80s, when MTV was only just getting off the ground in the USA, Australian free-to-air TV was showing about 15-20 hours of pop music programming per week, with regular weekly pop shows on four of the five networks -- including

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What do you mean, soundtrack videos with several cuts taken from the movie ("Bryan Adams" - "Everything I do", "Will Smith" - "Men in Black" etc.) or new music videos based on famous characters/movies (Simpsons - "Do the Bartman" and "Deep, deep trouble" and from South Park: Cartman - "Come sail

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section to an own article where we could specifically deal with all those significant developments. I've tried to give it a bit more coherence and readibility already by introducing subheadings on the defining milestones for the period I'm most knowledgable about, the one that's now in there as

738:

Contradiction in the "Modern era." First the mention Mike Nesmith released "the first video album" in 1981, but as we get the Australian version of events, there is Split Enz "became one of the first bands in the world to produce a complete set of music videos for each song on the album and to

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newest videos with complete credits icluding artist,title,label,commissioner,production co.,phone number,director,exec. producer,producer,prod. manager,coordinator,choreographer,prod. designer,stylist,hair, make-up,off-line editor,telecine/colrist,online-editor,casting,spec. effects,locations.

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So which medium is used most often today for music videos? Are they still predominantly video, or has it changed to film, or maybe half and half? I've found that the music videos I see now look too much like film to be considered video. But if video cameras are still used, which ones are they?

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A sidenote on the 1960s: for a short while in the early 60s, someone manufactured a kind of video jukebox - put a coin in and the machine played a music film loop. I once saw one of these in operation when I was a kid.... I think there's something about them on the Dead Media Project pages. --

1922:

The one music act that I've ever seen live on stage (October 3, 1979 in Boston) - and my very favorite music act of all time, Scandinavia's ABBA - was a pioneer of music videos from 1973 onwards, not very long after The Beatles had done their truly pioneering work in the 1960s. There's even a

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I don't have documentation to back this up, but I distinctly recall a TV programme some years back about short (no longer than 10 minutes) music films being made back in the 1930s or 1940s; one example they showed on the program featured a young Cab Calloway. The 1980s(?) film, "Loose Shoes"

196:

OK, but then what is the point of this or any other wiki entry? If it is purely to replicate the opinions of the MTV 'experts', then the entry might just as well consist of nothing more than a link direct to the MTV link given above. This is a highly subjective area, and the opinions of wiki

2094:

How about the effects of OTHER shows, and stage? (Some of my comments here are already in the article.) And even movies that highlighted singers, such as the films that Elvis starred in? And there were earlier films with famous singers in them, such as Marlene Dietrich. And of course, White

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This was a redirect here from oct 2002 when a video clip did indeed imply a music clip. This is now not the case as is explained in the new video clip article, hence my modification of the opening. There are thousands of easily sourceable non-music video clips on the web if not millions,

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I'd say that most of them are actually filmed on video cameras (digital) now, whereas in the past they were done on film. If you ever see the masters sent out to music stations, most old ones have contact details of a telecine firm who did the film scan-in at the during the time count

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and to comply with COI guidelines, I am not posting the link to this article. However, I would like to recommend it on its merits, and hope that an editor will find the time to examine it and—if he or she sees fit—post it to the external links or cite from it. I appreciate your time.

1700:

I really think the fact that music videos often use a differently mixed track ( ranging from making it shorter to actually adding / removing instrumentation present on the album version ) should be mentioned in the article. Or I wasn't paying attention and this is already included ?

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is seemingly an experimental film for a demo version of the song (and Í have no idea whether it was shot by Mick Rock), but the film seems to be, in a sense, a kind of definitive version of a music video. The date mentioned at the link (1969) conflicts with the date in the article.

1426:

I'm surprised that there is no detailed explanation on exactly when record labels stopped giving away music videos to TV stations and started asking for royalty payment each time a music video was aired. This change in policy was the death knell for many music video shows such as

1404:

I'd also be interest to hear views on the value or otherwise linking to clips on YouTube; this is useful in some cases (e.g. The Masters Apprentices clip for "Buried and Dead") but not so for items such as Prince's "Sign O' The Times" which sadly appears to have been removed.

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Zappa deserves more scrutiny (e.g. Uncle Meat, 200 Motels) and there's a glaring gap where Todd Rundgren's name should be -- both were true pioneers of music video and deserve more credit, especially as they were among the few music acts who also directed their own videos.

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After doing some research, The Beatles had several in '64.. "I Feel Fine" is one example.. I remember seeing it now. Same year as the "A Hard Days Night" movie, which many people also mention as part of the origin of music videos. I'll keep searching for something older.

2050:", "Big Bopper's Wedding", and "Little Red Riding Hood". He also used the phrase 'Rock Video' in 1959. Rick Nelson's Travelin' Man followed 3 years later in 1961, so J. P. Richardson should get the credit for having the first, (or three of the Very First), Music Videos. 953:

As much as I agree that there's a wealth of very good information in this article, I find it in very bad shape concerning how disorded and chaotic it looks, so no basic patterns and developments can easily be found. I suggest we ought to start by moving that huge

1059:, was successful in Australia and other countries quickly followed the format. At its highpoint during most of the 1980s it was to be aired in 22 countries including TV Europe. In 1978 the Dutch TV-broadcasting company Veronica started its own version of 161:

I agree. There's no point in just regurgitating MTV's list, or else readers might as well just go there rather than here. Hopefully wiki contributors will be more discerning and have there own choices (with reasons)of what are significant music videos

1027:

Shouldn't anything about the song "Knock Yourself Out" by Jadakiss be mentioned, it has Jada in a bed with three naked women, I haven't seen it but whereever found it, that thing is said... and anyone know anything about DJ Quik's Sweet Black Pussy?

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ever-changing psychedelic colors and patterns, as from a keleidoscope, shown over the music soundtrack. I remember songs from Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane and others. Certainly this would have been the precursor to dedicated video programming?

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Mention should probably be made of the video of George Harrison's "This Song," which was played on Saturday Night Live in November 1976 (same night he appeared with Paul Simon). It is a real video - not concert footage - available (for now) at

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If the Official Censor, having examined a video recording containing a video work (whether or not it is a video work in respect of which a supply certificate is in force for the time being), is of opinion that the work is unfit for viewing

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I added a new history subjection for lyric videos today. Interestingly, we have over a 1,000 mentions of "lyric video" on wikipedia already, but had no definition anywhere. Its one of those trends that happened while we were only kinda

1151:

This term is used a lot in the article but, as a British native speaker, it seems unnatural. I know lots of foreign languages use 'clip' to mean the whole video - but do we native speakers? Shouldn't this phrase be completely removed?

847:

This needs to be deleted, or corrected, as it incorrectly attributes influences, doesn't seem to realize the prevalence of non-intertitled silent films, and doesn't even get the length of Vertov's film (which was an 80-minute feature)

1435:. I also realize that music video shows will never see a successful revival due to the cost of airing them in today's market as opposed to the 1980s where virtually every TV station was airing them for free. This is also probably why 1173:

1980s - Two key innovations in the development of the modern music video were the development of relatively inexpensive and easy-to-use video recording and editing equipment, and the development of a number of related effects such as

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TV show. It was a film of Rick Nelson singing the song with his group combined with movie scenes of various places on the planet. It can be seen on You Tube. Doesn't that deserve metion as one of the first ever music videos?

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be passable. But if this is referring to the technology being available for production use, it's inaccurate. Chroma key and video effects were widely available and used since the early 1970's. A specific example would be

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Okay, but all the contents of the "Single V" article relate to Hello! Project. Maybe the "Single V" article should just be deleted? I don't see any information in there that is important enough for an overview article like

907:

and such was an incredibly important and influential piece." Perhaps someday, this can make it to featured status, but it'll be a long, long climb… And yes, I'm about to follow my own advice now, so please don't slap on a

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I agree this is a potential problem, but I don't think the current list is a problem. Granted, I added many of them myself, but I tried to choose meaningful videos. I don't really have any solution to prevent a future

94:

Are we sure that only notable/influential music videos are being included rather than people's personal favourites??? Subjective I know, but I suggest there needs to be some sort of criteria for inclusion agreed here...

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I realize that such a definition is way too broad for Knowledge purposes, so I suggest editing the current definition into: "A music video is a form of audiovisual media that integrates a piece of music with visuals".

1573:

This needs to be rewritten. Firstly, Robbie William's genitalia is blurred and secondly, The reason it was banned (and mainly controversial) was not the stripping but the peeling of his skin afterwards. Regards,

110:

Suggestion: how about requiring any additions to include a brief statement about why, either in the article or on the talk page. Something like "pioneering use of animation in a music video" or something.

414:

it mention's madonna alot in one bit about mtv, i think if your going to have a female artist in a page on music videos , then madonna is the one to have , not kylie, she hasn't done anything special.....

1381:, and hopefully this gives these shows some proven relevance for non-Australians, e.g. by demonstrating their importance to the career of Russell Mulcahy, who cut his teeth making clips for these shows. 3084:

The source cited for the definition is taken from a grad/undergrad paper. The source link itself is broken, but the paper can be found elsewhere and it clearly marks it as a college paper by a student.

3075:

1. Music video is not necessarily short film. Long form videos exist such as Frank Ocean's Endless (running for 45 minutes - A short film is defined as being under 40 minutes according to Knowledge)

785:

The link to that Internet Accuracy Project only contains their assertion and no source evidence. Was the term "video" even in use then? What about the term "rock" (as opposed to "rock-and-roll")?

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also include a section to discuss some of the major stylistic trends -- narrative, non-representational, performance, etc -- which could be linked with Wiki and other film theory pages/sites.

724:

at one point intended to release a video album, rather than records. These are just a couple examples. This seems to be an important, or at least worthy of a mention, aspect of music videos.

1246:

shouldn't this article mention the "Never gonna give you UP" music video by Rick Astly. This is probally the most viewed music video of all time, with over 55 million plays on youtube.

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includes plenty of books and such, hardly any of the statements in the article itself are connected to any sources whatsoever — in fact, there are only three uses of the <ref: -->

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Would a subject under Music Video be appropriate for Cameo Appearances or should it have its own page? I plan to link the Actor/Actress, artist and the video to other Wiki pages.

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If you type in the following into a search engine you will find literally hundreds of websites which claim that the video for "Losing My Religion" was actually banned in Ireland.

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Scholarship has no firm definition of music video- the leading scholar, Carol Vernallis, defines music video as "a relation between sound and image that we recognize as such" .

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I have rewritten it and provided a reference. It wasn't actually banned in the UK, TV programs decided to censor it themselves however it was banned in the Dominican Republic. --

833:

checking the edits and make sure that if somebody deletes stuff, it is promptly reinstated. I try to help if I can, but I hope somebody else has got more time on their hands.

633:

Plus the rolling stone reference effectively states that their Irish promoters pulled it. Big, big difference to being banned which, once again, is impossible in Ireland. --

624:

Doesn't change the fact they can't be banned, so I've removed it. The band may have been told that, but its impossible. The answers.com page is from the Knowledge, btw... --

1942:

The two couples from Sweden ARE "right up there" with The Fab Four from Liverpool in pioneering music videos worldwide...howzabout a mention for ABBA at this page, hmmm???

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I hate to be a killjoy, but that's quite contrary to the Knowledge's NPOV policy. Read carefully on "characterizing opinions on people's artistic and other works". --

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actually, that reminds me.. "Hey Jude" and "Revolution" were both films of live in studio performances, so I guess they're technically not music videos either. -Jazz77

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The line about the Thriller video containing ahead-of-their-time special effects... all those effects had already been seen in "An American Werewolf in London".

1807:

No mention of enhancedCDs? I remember many enhancedCDs had bonus materials, like music videos. See Britney Spears' Baby One More Time for the easiest example.

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is obviously the best known example, releasing many such videos, although these were often simply recorded live sets. Also, I have nothing to verify this, but

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https://web.archive.org/20120330233216/http://buzz103.radio.com/2010/12/23/30-seconds-to-mars-release-official-clean-version-of-controversial-hurricane-video/

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I find it interesting that this article doesn't mention Gerald Scarfe's animations for Pink Floyd's The Wall. Or do those not count as music videos per se?

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Someone put this back I see. It cannot, and was not banned no matter what any other sites say. Its impossible to ban a music video in Ireland, end of. --

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radio) and finally to Australia's Abbamania of 1976-77 and the band's rise to super stardom. For more details see lso the recent Australian documentary

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According to the Internet Accuracy Project, disk jockey-singer J.P. "The Big Bopper" Richardson (d. 1959) was the first to coin the phrase "rock video"

1373:

I've made a fairly substantial re-edit on several parts of this article. I've added a number of references, particularly to the section dealing with

3072:

The definition of music video on this page conflicts somewhat with music video scholarship. The current definition gets the following things wrong:

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video!) So what do you know? Has it been censored, and, well, banned on some websites and some shows? This is a suggestion for the article, btw.

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So Abba's and Lasse Hallström's role in the history music videos should probably be included next to the part on Austrialian TV and countdown.--

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N. ... you'll notice the cutting, the rhythm of the cutting, is to the music and you?ve got to remember there were no rock videos 32 years ago.

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Also R.E.M had also verified this in an interview on Australian TV during "The Panel" when asked "have any of your videos ever been banned?"

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There was a spate of reverts yesterday on the page revolving around the splitting of the entire history section to a new sub-article titled

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uses for their video single releases. They're exclusive singles released on DVD that's played with a video and sales are analyzed through

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away" and Chef - "Chocolate Salty Balls") or something else? I only remember the chorus to these songs, they might have another title...

2075:

Early punk music videos, sort of. Just making you aware of an interesting new article. You may have something interesting to add to it.

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videos start getting produced in these places? And what was the medium for their transmission? Any leads or info would be appreciated.

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only lasted about 4 years before it folded in 2007. Now all you see during late night hours on most TV stations and cable networks are

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at YouTube...true, it IS a very early example of what we'd all see with their earliest videos of their own songs from the 1970s, like

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According to the spanish version of wikipedia, Carlos Gardel was the first artist using a video to promote a CD. Check that, please.

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1136: 693:(iii) would tend, by reason of the inclusion in it of obscene or indecent matter, to deprave or corrupt persons who might view it, 382:

I also remember watching a video around that timeframe for the Sammy Johns song "Chevy Van", but that would have been after 1974.--

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was banned in Ireland for (currently) "homoerotic imagery" and (formerly) "religious imagery". Theres a few problems with this:

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stunned at how much those four or five clips resemble modern day music videos. And that's what they really are.--Susan Nunes

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Was this Dutch show a remake of Countdown itself? Or just a completely different show that happened to carry the same title?

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T. This was the very first long form music video ever done. MTV came as a result of this. After seeing these, MTV happened.

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What might -possibly- have happened was, considering it was 1991, was that the then sole television broadcaster in Ireland,

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There were jazz film clips included prior to movies during the 30s and 40s. I can't remember what they were called. --

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http://buzz103.radio.com/2010/12/23/30-seconds-to-mars-release-official-clean-version-of-controversial-hurricane-video/

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of mine is a version on the article in which I've removed every uncited fact — be warned, it's terrifyingly short…

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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was certainly one of the most memorable videos of the time, and an innovative use of live action + animation.

1099: 647: 570:, refused to show it. This is completely and utterly different to it being banned. The video has been shown on 3297: 3256: 3247:. The description under "video single" also includes examples from Hello! Project as stated from the article. 2351:

https://web.archive.org/20100608012402/http://www.ciaraworld.com:80/uk/news/ciaras-back-smooth-new-single-ride

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https://web.archive.org/20121013081100/http://www.cmt.com/artists/news/1473779/20030714/rascal_flatts.jhtml

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https://web.archive.org/20091009091533/http://music.guardian.co.uk/pickardofthepops/page/0,,2278373,00.html

2140: 1900: 757:, they are often credited with invention of the music video, yes? should we not add something about that? 2970: 2860: 1474: 1456: 1444: 1359: 1340: 1326: 1037: 2751:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120217015606/http://www.boardsmag.com/articles/magazine/20040501/stern.html

1094:, arguably one of the most famous music videos ever created. Other songs with well known videos, such as 982: 808: 3032:

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are they?the leed singer had shoulder length black hair and tatoos on his forearms. can any one help?

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Like old Kinescopes? Were they actually made like videos or were they just films of live performances?

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I semi-protected it because anonymous users were spamming it. But now it's not s-protected anymore.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110830152110/http://thirtysecondstomars.thisisthehive.net/hurricane/

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specious assertions with reasoned argument, instead of making pejorative and unhelpful remarks. -

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