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recommends that maps from reliable sources should only be treated as reliable for their intended purpose (in this case, general planning of travel). I feel that we should also be very careful to only cite information which is explicitly stated in the map, without interpretation or synthesis. I feel
805:
Google Maps and Google Street View may be useful for some purposes, including finding and verifying geographic coordinates and other basic information like street names. However where other reliable sources are available they should be treated preferentially to Google Maps and Google Street View. It
883:
I did look at some GAs and FAs on highways. For the ones I inspected, they often used Google Maps sparingly for a general overview but did not rely on it as the primary source for the articles. Google Maps has been particularly questioned over defining neighbourhoods, what constitutes "downtown" or
879:
Although not required for GA criteria, having page numbers for a source like that (digitized spiral-bound copies, not easy to read) would really help move the review along. I don't see any clear 'article' in that source to be read and wasn't going to read through 50+ pages (not when it looked clear
926:
Okay, one other editor felt that the quick fail was premature, so I'm putting the review "on hold" until May 1 to allow for editing to meet the GA criteria. I will stress that Google Maps may be used for basic distances and coordinates (limited precision) and street names, but is inadequate on its
767:
754:
This map is used as a citation for five sentences, which describes construction and detours over a period of time, which I'm unable to identify in the source. There are some contours on the map, but determining road grades from these requires specialist knowledge. I feel that this is insufficient
839:
With the exception of the citation that I removed all others seem fine. In citation #6, if you read the whole article its shows the % grades of 5S, when the thruway exit was complete, and when the NY5 arterial was completed. And as to the Google maps reference, most GA of FA road articles use the
539:
Google Maps – is it a reliable source? (See
General discussion, below) Also, I found it quite awkward to scroll around to look for visually represented data for verification. Here are some of the things I did not find clearly stated in the Google map (i.e.: which were completely absent or which
808:
Discussions I read at the
Reliable sources noticeboard vary from Google Maps being a "reasonable source" (not reliable) for non-controversial verification of simple distances, to being "unreliable" as they have not disclosed their editorial practices for fact-checking. Another editor noted that
812:
Over half of the article's prose is cited to Google Maps (all but one sentence of the Route description section), and much of that fails verification from Google Maps as noted above. Some of the other citations are also to maps and fail verification (easy interpretation by a non-specialist).
884:
the "city limits", etc. In addition to the reliability issue, there were original research issues such as saying that the road goes through a wooded area – this requires interpretation of the satellite images, which we can't do ourselves, we need a reliable source to confirm that.
956:
You've made quite a few improvements but I believe it is still shy of the GA criteria. I think you're on the right track, though, and I hope that you will nominate it again after doing a little more work on the article. My main concerns have been with verifiability and original
966:
GOOGLE MAPS CORE SERVICES ARE PROVIDED FOR PLANNING PURPOSES ONLY. INFORMATION FROM THE GOOGLE MAPS CORE SERVICES MAY DIFFER FROM ACTUAL CONDITIONS, AND MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR THE CUSTOMER APPLICATION. CUSTOMER MUST EXERCISE INDEPENDENT JUDGMENT WHEN USING THE
809:
Google Maps is an aggregator, a tertiary source like
Knowledge (XXG); and like Knowledge (XXG), this means that they're good for a general overview but that they aren't reliable themselves. What we want are the sources that Google Maps is getting its data from.
875:
In the reviewed version of the article, that citation wasn't used for the grade. Please let the reviewer know when you make a change like that to fix a problem; don't make the fix and pretend it was like that to begin with, it isn't constructive to the review
980:
978:
because it requires specialized skill – most people simply don't have enough experience perceiving the world from an aerial perspective to make accurate assessments of what they are looking at. Some additional discussion was held at
659:
City limits confirmed by ref "2008tvr" with the route distance of LITTLE FALLS N CITY LN, which also notes the TN OF LITTLE FALLS which I assume is the town line. Note that Google Maps is not reliable for neighbourhood/city/town
816:
I don't see this passing without substantial work, and am failing the review. I hope that my review notes give you some direction on how to proceed. If you disagree with my assessment, I can call for a second opinion.
887:
For the images, I noted that they had CC (creative commons) licences, which is valid, and checked them on the criteria list. I didn't mean to confuse you, but felt obligated to include that to show that they had been
970:
742:
I can't tell if Route 5 refers to the NY 5W in Little Falls or NY 5S at the present beginning of NY169. I don't feel it does much for verification in either of the places where it is used as a citation.
565:
OK, it does look pretty clear that the exit overpasses NY 5S on the Google Maps aerial photo (given that these are straight-line artificial features), and this isn't something which would be subject to
840:
same map citation for the description. For example, NY 28, NY 12, NY 26, NY 32 all use google map references for the route description. Maybe you should ask for more opinions like you suggested.
806:
can also be difficult or impossible to determine the veracity of past citations, since Google Maps data is not publicly archived, and may be removed or replaced as soon as it is not current.
587:
changed to "the CSX railyard" but what are presumably railway tracks over which the route passes is not identified on the map, either as a railway line or specifically as the CSX railyard.
47:
196:
861:
Also the offline map references are used very frequently in GA and FA road articles. Also the images are all fine and not copyrighted, often images are used off of flickr.
240:
80:
126:
800:
70:
122:
454:
52:
107:
739:
This source can confirm that the route existed in 1970, but not that it received its designation in 1930. Perhaps in combination with the offline source.
244:
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99:
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The route follows the couplet for three blocks – there is a fourth street on the map, though it is unlabelled so perhaps not a recognized "block".
702:
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981:
Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Good articles/GAN Backlog Drives/April–May 2020 § Second opinion request regarding Google Maps
156:
338:
Google Maps is unreliable or fails verification for much of the cited information. More reliable sources needed throughout.
115:
17:
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905:
Ok sounds good either way, and I do understand now what you meant about the pictures. And thank you for your review.
269:
369:
355:
92:
325:
321:
638:
No change needed. As "2008tvr" is the more reliable source, give preference to it instead of Google Maps.
611:"2008tvr" confirms the overlap, but I think an additional source is needed for the wrong-way concurrency.
910:
866:
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733:
page 22 of the list: 169 (Route 5) Little Falls, Middleville (Routes 28 and 29) – Herkimer County.
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969:. If Google Maps doesn't claim to be reliable, we shouldn't assume that they are. The essay
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not explicitly stated in sources; I feel that this requires interpretation of the map photos
960:
I want to be clear about my concerns with using maps as sources. I found the following at
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The big issue I ran up against is the question: Is Google Maps is a reliable source?
598:
561:
The north–south roadway leading from the I-90 exit goes over (i.e.: overpasses) NY 5S.
987:
983:. Most of those editors agreed that additional sources should supplement Google Maps.
943:
928:
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856:
834:
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961:
645:
need source for neighbourhood/zoning, can't rely on aerial photos for this.
569:
NY 169 does not turn northwest until reaching the bank of the Mohawk River
971:
Knowledge (XXG):Using maps and similar sources in
Knowledge (XXG) articles
605:
as NY 169 northbound is concurrent to NY 167 southbound and vice versa.
964:, updated April 27, 2020, part 14(C) of Disclaimer (caps are theirs):
777:
The table at the end of the article only has a citation for one column.
891:
I am calling for a second opinion. Good luck with the article. –
927:
own for other information. Additional sources will be needed. –
697:
Verified 12.42 mi, and distances in the one column of the table.
986:
I hope that you find success moving forward with this. –
689:
offline, AGF for simple verification of existence in 1930
694:"2008tyr" 2008 Traffic Volume Report for New York State
772:
I have no idea what I'm supposed to be looking at here.
631:
follow Ann Street north – the map labels it N Ann St,
134:
103:
583:
passes over the CSX-owned Mohawk subdivision railyard
558:
Not explicitly stated that there is a rural township
801:Knowledge (XXG):Reliable sources/Perennial sources
786:Four images from Flickr released under CC licence.
448:and other media, where possible and appropriate.
594:Removed mentions of "downtown" in this section.
942:I'm taking another look at the article now. –
674:mentioned as terminus of route on Google Maps.
648:to Monroe Street – W Monroe Street on the map
540:would require some interpretation and thus be
974:that interpretation of aerial photographs is
880:to me that the article wasn't going to pass).
667:Town of Fairfield does not appear in sources.
453:(images are tagged and non-free content have
8:
713:citation and statement removed by nominator
383:Difficult to determine without more sources
30:
764:Citations to two offline maps, unverified
707:I have no idea what I'm looking at here.
576:Follows the river through a wooded area.
554:It initially heads through a rural town.
547:The route starts in the town of Danube.
759:citation moved up to confirm date only.
61:
33:
965:
804:
551:I don't see "Danube" in either source.
962:Google Maps Platform Terms of Service
723:Could not access the material itself.
686:"1930map" Road Map of New York, 1930
624:The city's central business district
7:
663:crosses into the town of Fairfield
655:city limits / town of Little Falls
756:
671:
656:
649:
635:
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614:follows E Main St into "downtown"
591:
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376:
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332:
24:
633:so follow North Ann Street north.
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402:Fair representation without bias
375:
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331:
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590:The eastern fringe of downtown
534:Referencing & verifiability
530:The prose looks decent enough.
195:for what the criteria are, and
213:(prose, spelling, and grammar)
1:
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18:Talk:New York State Route 169
641:a residential neighbourhood
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165:Review to be forthcoming. –
755:for verification purposes.
512:additional referencing work
1014:
937:21:09, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
915:14:46, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
901:12:51, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
871:02:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
850:02:50, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
827:01:21, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
175:20:56, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
161:20:56, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
677:passes by a row of homes
996:14:28, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
952:11:45, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
670:village of Middleville
206:reasonably well written
803:notes of Google Maps:
199:for what they are not)
768:"littlefallsarterial"
603:wrong-way concurrency
442:It is illustrated by
394:neutral point of view
347:broad in its coverage
681:photo interpretation
750:"little falls quad"
455:fair use rationales
795:General discussion
426:No edit wars, etc.
265:factually accurate
976:original research
601:with NY 167 is a
542:original research
473:suitable captions
280:reference section
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43:Copyvio detector
31:
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573:rephrased, good
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521:Review comments
469:appropriate use
391:It follows the
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292:(citations to
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117:Article talk
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93:
90:
81:Instructions
907:420Traveler
863:420Traveler
842:420Traveler
660:boundaries.
237:word choice
104:visual edit
719:"1920book"
326:plagiarism
270:verifiable
48:Authorship
34:GA toolbox
957:research.
729:"1970log"
652:rephrased
508:Requires
498:Pass/Fail
180:Criterion
144:Reviewer:
71:Templates
62:Reviewing
27:GA Review
988:Reidgreg
967:SERVICES
944:Reidgreg
929:Reidgreg
893:Reidgreg
888:checked.
876:process.
857:Reidgreg
835:Reidgreg
819:Reidgreg
167:Reidgreg
157:contribs
147:Reidgreg
76:Criteria
599:overlap
566:change.
492:Overall
370:focused
322:copyvio
241:fiction
127:history
108:history
94:Article
445:images
420:stable
418:It is
396:policy
345:It is
263:It is
243:, and
233:layout
204:It is
189:review
782:Media
526:Prose
471:with
245:lists
191:(see
136:Watch
16:<
992:talk
948:talk
933:talk
911:talk
897:talk
867:talk
846:talk
823:talk
324:and
267:and
229:lead
227:for
197:here
193:here
171:talk
151:talk
123:edit
100:edit
544:):
225:MoS
994:)
950:)
935:)
913:)
899:)
869:)
848:)
825:)
817:–
500::
494::
477::
465:b
459::
451:a
428::
422:.
404::
398:.
374::
366:b
360::
352:a
349:.
330::
318:d
312::
308:OR
304:c
298::
290:b
284::
276:a
273:.
249::
239:,
235:,
231:,
221:b
215::
211:a
208:.
187:GA
173:)
159:)
125:|
106:|
102:|
990:(
946:(
931:(
909:(
895:(
865:(
859::
855:@
844:(
837::
833:@
821:(
757:✓
736:?
679:✗
672:✓
665:✗
657:✓
650:✓
643:✗
636:✓
626:✗
616:✓
608:?
592:✓
585:✗
578:✗
571:✓
563:✓
556:✗
549:✗
475:)
467:(
457:)
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368:(
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169:(
154:·
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98:(
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