1061:"the question concerning the process of differentiation which separated proto-Germanic from the other Indo-European languages is still burdened with nineteenth-century theories of biological naturalism which see the evolution of languages along family-tree lines, thereby presupposing an Indo-European proto- or root language from which others branch out according to organic laws of development. This view would also postulate the emergence of a uniform proto-Germanic language, from which the Germanic languages would evolve. In view of the significant links between Germanic, Celtic and Italic languages on the one hand and Baltic and Slavic languages on the other, the question arises whether Germanic branched out from the Indo-European stem in conjunction with these other languages or whether Germanic branches came in contact with branches of those other languages, or if perhaps the agreement among Germanic, Italic and Celtic languages, as reflected in the names given to lakes and rivers, does not suggest a common proto-European language as a transitional stage between proto Indo-European and the individual European languages. Specialists have yet to formulate an acceptable answer."
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their merchandise in the perilous journey across the sea. Nehalenniaâs cult was a successful one: visitors came to worship from as far away as Besançon and Trier. And it was a wealthy cult: the two shrines to the goddess were embellished with numerous altars . . . Nehalenniaâs two sanctuaries, at
Domburg on the island of Walcheren and at Colijnsplaat on the East Scheldte estuary, are both now submerged beneath the North Sea. However, many of her altars have been recovered, and these display a rich and complex iconography which throws some light on the nature and functions of the goddess. Nehalennia is generally depicted seated, with baskets of fruit as emblems of prosperity and often with marine symbols to signify her presidency over the sea. But most distinctive of all the motifs associated with this North Sea deity is the dog. On nearly every surviving stone â and there are more than a hundred â a large, benign, hound-like animal sits patiently by the goddessâs feet, facing his mistress.
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references are fragmented and published only to express opposition to other views. Thus, restricting yourself to publications you know of would necessarily convey the risk of distortion. Maybe we can expect something from Peter
Schrijver in the near future, especally concerning -ennia, since he assumes reminiscent influences from Linear Pottery people, and godesses with -na are almost pan-european (although I wonder if he takes local and slightly less ancient maritime Beaker traditions original enough). The ultimate source to all those speculations is te be found in what is published on proto languages. A lot of symbolism is involved, pointing to a cultural heritage that is largely lost. All of this makes it extremely difficult to grasp any meaning to any speculation at all, if presented without any contextual information. By the way, this compilation is what it is: a
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1320:, we're supposed to make sure the mainstream academic approach is explicitly clear before attaching before going into comparatively obscure theories within academia, which wasn't the case. Once the article is very clear about mainstream academic consensus, then bring the Nordwest block, etc, stuff in. To be frank, I can barely find time to respond to messages here and on my talk page and nowadays can only do talk page patrolling every now and then, so I can't be charged with bringing that balance into the article at the moment.
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IS LJAFDE VR WISDOM. RJUCHT ĂND FRYDOM. When
Nyhellenia ,(1) whose own name was Minerva, was well established, and the Greeks loved her almost as much as her own folk (2), some princes and priests came to the burg and asked her where her inherited estates or âervaâ were. Hellenia answered: âI carry âminâ â that is, my â âervaâ in my heart. What I inherited is love of wisdom, justice and freedom.
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baked in the shape of a boar at the time of Yule in Sweden. Davidson further states that customs in VĂ€rmland, Sweden "within living memory" describe grain from the last sheaf being used to bake a loaf into the shape of a little girl, as well as examples of elaborate loaves being used for religious festivals, for fertility of fields in Anglo-Saxon
England, and examples from Ireland.
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view must be deleted. Someone else can come along and do it. Maybe I will do it. But I still don't see how deleting the work of a very respected linguist and an archeologist who discuss a popular albeit non-standard theory will solve anything. I can also not find any consensus that it is either
Germanic or Celtic, which makes it all the more reasonable to include this one.
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I guess most I'll find would be in the Dutch language. Intertwining on other levels: e.g. myths, even though it is often hard to distinguish between contact and common heritage. Especially assessments to the Völund saga and the connections between
Siegfried and the Celtic Salmon of Knowledge are interesting. I would have to dive into it again.
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1222:. Far and away the most common notions on this figure is that her name is either Germanic or Celtic. Inserting a reference to a purely hypothesized "ancient Belgian language" without emphasizing the general academic consensus is misleading to the reader and seems to promote what is nearly a fringe idea. What gives?
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Davidson further links the motif of the ship associated with
Nehalennia with the Germanic Vanir pair of Freyr and Freyja, as well as the Germanic goddess Nerthus, and draws a connection between the loaves of bread that appear on some depictions Nehalennia with oblong, shin-bone shaped loaves of bread
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I would like to get several references and suggested page links for the following sentence, which is in the article. Specifically, what sources and pages would best validate and explain this claim? " Today it's understood that Celtic and
Germanic tribes shared a common heritage in language as well as
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THĂ NY.HEL.LĂNJA. THAM FON HJRA ĂJN NĂME MIN.ERVA HĂTE. GOD SĂTEN WAS ĂND THA KRĂKALANDER HJA TOMET EVEN HĂRDE MINADE AS VS AJN FOLK. THĂ KĂMON THĂR SVME FORSTA ĂND PRESTERA VPPERA BURCH ĂND FRĂJON MIN.ERVA HWĂR OF HJRA ERVA LĂJON. HEL.LĂNJA ANDERE MINA ERVA DRĂG IK OM IN MINA BOSM. HWAT IK URVEN HĂV
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The cultural intertwining of Celtic and
Germanic, at least on a local level, has been thouroughly studied. Archeological studies revealed it is virtually impossible to distinguish one from the other. Linguistic studies have been performed by Peter Schrijver and others, I'ld have to search for it but
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Nehalennia, a
Germanic goddess worshipped at the point where travellers crossed the North Sea from the Netherlands, is shown on many carved stones holding loaves and apples like a Mother Goddess, sometimes with a prow of a ship beside her (see p. 112), but also frequently with an attendant dog which
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But it's not obscure, it is scholarship. Point is that you hereby charge me to either not add this or to first find much more info that doesn't have to do with the Nordwestblock, but that also shouldn't be my job. WP:DUE doesn't mean that if one possibly majority view isn't represented, the other
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Note I answered my own question on dates so don't botther to go look it up (not I sheepishly got coins and stone votives mixed up). NOW I am wondering if a lot of the "etymology" section, except for what I answered is composed of "original research" and should be reduced to published speculation.
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So why do you not add some of that? Why do you insist on deleting material that was properly sourced to a respected linguist instead of just adding criticism from others or discussing opposing views? What's notable is that scholars from other countries that are unfamiliar with this are likely to
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I can't connect the last sentence in the following paragraph from the Inscriptions and depictions section with the goddess Nehalennia. Perhaps this info was copied from another article without verifying the whole paragraph was applicable? Or is there a connection, but either I don't see it or it
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The tribe of the Morini lived in what is now the Netherlands, bordering the North Sea coast. They venerated a local Celtic goddess, Nehalennia, and set up two temples in her honour. She was a divinity of seafarers, and protected merchants and other travellers who regularly risked their lives and
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Thanks for inviting me. This has really been some time ago. I remember there has been a lot of speculation on the subject, nothing ever being completely satisfactory. Nobody has ever been as bold as to dedicate something like a comprehensive scientific article to the issue. A pity, for now all
1260:"Experts in the field" overwhelmingly "dump it into Celtic or Germanic" rather than an entirely hypothesized and entirely unattested group. Emphasizing your personal preference over general academic consensus is not OK and Knowledge (XXG) has policies against this sort of emphasis, namely
1298:, which is not at all "undue". I am perfectly aware of Knowledge (XXG)'s policy and guidelines, but I think I'm not the one with a personal preference here. I have heard no justification for mass removing sourced information other than that you think
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there should be no problem to identify the origin of Nehalennia. Her original name was Minerva, and she was one of "Fryas children". She was taken to Crete and Athens, where cults to her arose. The sailors called her Nyhellenia. Oera Linda Book:
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was a very notable linguist and calling him "fringe" is absurd. You deleted everything you found unlikely but I see no consensus against it. I prefer the ideas of experts in a field rather than those who just dump it in with Celtic or Germanic.
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How nice to hear from you Rokus, this info may help not just this article but others in Europe. As usual I might think about it a while, then incorporate pieces (in this case, the cited source and links i.e. to
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The common heritage in language and ancient religion should be sought in assessments that study the common Indo European origin of language and myth. Of this there are many. Especially the work of
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OKay! Well I am really "into her" right now as I was just there in Zeeland. If you don't mind I may just copyedit it a bit, but not take anything away. I'll say its a compiliation or something.
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is interesting, concerning the tripartite-dualistic nature of Indo European myths in general. The tripartite and dualistic nature of Nehalennia has been cited in several assessments.
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I'd guess it's the three conflicting descriptions of the loaves. How can they be 'oblong', 'shin-bone shaped', and 'in the shape of a boar'? None of those things are the same shape.
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Also, am I missing something, the Davidson note those are connected to say '1998', with a page number, but the only Davidson reference in the section below the notes is dated 1990.
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878:(2) âGreeksâ (KRĂKALANDER) from KRĂKALANDA â suggested to mean creek-lands; elsewhere differentiated as ânearâ (appr. current Italy) and âdistantâ (appr. current Greece).--
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875:(1) â Nyhelleniaâ (NY.HEL.LĂNJA) â in the next sentence shortened in original as HEL.LĂNJA, translated here as Hellenia; the name literally means âprovide new clarityâ.
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sits looking up at her (Plate 5). He was on thirteen of the twenty-one altars recorded by Ada Hondius-Crone (1955: 103), who describes him as a kind of greyhound. . .
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The paraphrase was indeed muddled and it appears that the article was missing the reference cited. Thanks for catching that. The problem should be solved now.
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Where is the Greek original name? According to Oera Linda BĂŽk, "she was called Nyhellenia, because her advises always seemed new and clear";
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Also, I can't envision "oblong, shin-bone shaped loaves of bread baked in the shape of a boar," so is this a misquote? Er, mis-paraphrase?
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and related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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What date were the earliest coins that depicted her? I added this source today that mentions several interesting points:
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The Oera Linda book is a fake, thought up by a Frisian minister with too much time on his hands. Read the wiki on it :D
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What's with the recent edits inserting a useless and misleading template followed by the injection of references to
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I am not very much into it now, though maybe this quote (The Prehistory of Germanic Europe by Herbert Schutz,
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by Miranda Green (published 1992) states that "Nehalennia is nearly always portrayed with a dog"(p. 5).
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Good idea I've invited him or her to come discuss here. I'd look forward to knowing of the best sources.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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946:. He edits a lot of archaeology articles. Perhaps you could ask for his sources on his talk page?
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Besides, how can the daughter of a Germanic Goddes have a Greek name as her original name?
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ignore such theories, preferring the simple explanation that has held for ages. But
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Well, to be clear, the issue here is a matter of balance and representation. Per
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in Dutch). Oh, you mean "Minerva". It is not Greek, but Latin, from Etruscan
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Some of the bread info--is it irrelevant? And shin-bone shaped boar loves?
684:-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us
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1063:(as you might know, Schultz was only an influential pioneer) Cheers!
868:, "heritage"). Although in other line it is interpreted differently.
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ancient religion and were culturally intertwined to a degree." (?)
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No, this is all paraphrased from the source. What is the trouble?
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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It does not go through Zeeland, it is the Schelde River.
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Start-Class articles with conflicting quality ratings
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where you can join the project or contribute to the
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434:. This project provides a central approach to
1059:, Ch 6 The Northern Genesis, 1983) will help:
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40:WikiProjects
1322::bloodofox:
1266::bloodofox:
1239::bloodofox:
1224::bloodofox:
1192::bloodofox:
1153::bloodofox:
971:compilation
442:the article
392:Startâclass
341:Netherlands
328:Netherlands
287:Startâclass
284:Netherlands
1388:Categories
1057:0300028636
336:discussion
104:discussion
81:Nehalennia
1337:Bloodofox
1281:Bloodofox
880:Manfariel
753:The book
463:Mythology
437:Mythology
389:Mythology
106:. Please
1318:WP:UNDUE
1262:WP:UNDUE
1220:WP:UNDUE
1170:Number36
1138:Geekdiva
948:Alohasoy
944:one edit
832:Krastain
703:Religion
681:Religion
634:Religion
1065:Rokus01
980:Rokus01
858:Menerva
730:on the
609:on the
504:on the
259:on the
232:History
223:History
179:History
154:on the
30:C-class
1292:winter
785:L Hamm
121:Assess
118:, and
115:Create
36:scale.
1372:KsVer
902:Deity
862:minne
482:Start
360:Start
127:Celts
92:Celts
59:Celts
1376:talk
1348:talk
1326:talk
1308:talk
1270:talk
1252:talk
1228:talk
1196:talk
1174:talk
1157:talk
1142:talk
1110:talk
1088:talk
1069:talk
1054:ISBN
1032:talk
1007:Hmmm
884:talk
866:Erbe
850:hell
692:and
690:good
452:and
450:good
109:Join
942:in
854:hel
722:Low
694:1.0
601:Low
496:Mid
454:1.0
251:Low
146:Low
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