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work. I suspect it was never more than a term of derision, used first by German liberals and later by
American Roman Catholics and Protestant fundamentalists, and which now has become part of the common theological vocabulary without having reeived, in English-speaking scholarship, the critical evaluation for which it calls. Moreover, it is an important question whether any one term can describe the widely varied theologies of the Niebuhr brothers (who were very different from each other), Paul Tillich, Karl Barth, Emil Brunner (who were more or less at each others' throats theologically from 1929 until Brunner's death in 1966), and Rudolph Bultmann, who lived in an entirely different theological and hermeneutical universe from the rest.
960:"Crisis theology, or neoorthodoxy, saw the Bible as the ultimate authority but did not consider it inerrant. God, it affirmed, does not reveal doctrines but makes himself known in history through his "mighty acts," chief of which is Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit enabled the biblical writers to see the acts as a revelation of God's will and can likewise inspire readers. Believers may avoid the fundamentalist error of pitting the biblical story of creation against the scientific theory of evolution by recognizing that the Bible does not attempt to give a scientific explanation of how the universe began; it reveals God's will and purpose in creation."
990:. Also a reaction against rationalism and science, existentialism, according to Kierkegaard, insists that religious truth is discovered not by abstract thought or scientific observation but by living. God cannot be an object of human thought; he is a living person who challenges us to decision. Christianity, said Kierkegaard, is the courage to be an individual over against the masses, whose minds have been subjected to mass media. Existentialism does not ask "What is Christianity?" and expect an answer in terms of doctrine. It asks, "How does one become a Christian?", which must be answered by individual decision."
957:"Liberal theology was challenged on another level by the new, postwar Crisis theology, developed in Europe by the Swiss pastor Karl Barth. Trained as a liberal but disillusioned by the war, he published a commentary on Romans (1919) in which he called for a return to the traditional, orthodox Christian view of sin. This neoorthodoxy, did not, however, return to other aspects of orthodoxy but accepted the results of biblical criticism and scientific thought. Fundamentalists found it even more distasteful than liberalism."
1473:"I don't disagree or dispute this, but would be very interested in seeing this sourced. This is a hunch I've had for a long time. It was less influential among mainline Protestant groups with an Arminian theological orientation, such as the Methodist Church, the Episcopal Church, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), and the Northern Baptists, with many pastors in these denominations opting to continue the traditions of American religious liberalism (while others firmly took their stands with evangelicalism)."
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1207:, and the construction of a theology firmly based on the proclamation of God's word in the bible. But despite this emphasis on God's otherness, and stern warnings not to confuse God's realm with the human (dalectical theology), even neo-orthodox theologians are rooted in a particular cultural context. Two world wars, the terror imposed by totalitarian regimes, a technologically organized
951:"20th Century. Protestanitism entered the 20th century with great optimism inspired by the achievements of liberal theology and missionary success. Its confidence was severely jolted, however, by World War I, which proved that Christendom had not progressed beyond barbarism after all, and by theological controversy. But it moved toward greater social involvement and religious unity."
1219:, and technology have led to a deep mistrust of all human institutions and culture. God's transcendence must be safeguarded and human brokenness affirmed. Humanity's only hope is God's saving action in Christ. This strong Christocentrism confonts individuals with the need for a radical decision for or against God's word in Jesus Christ as proclaimed by the church." --
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Brunner, and perhaps others, from readings of whose work they actually derive. In this article, perhaps it would be best to use this section to describe the things scholars like Tracy and
Douglas John Hall say hold allegedly "neo-orthodox" theologians together, such as a mostly negative assessment of human nature and society.
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occurances; and c.) even if something is a revelation it may not be from God; any other spiritual force going around making revelations has every reason to try to convince people that he/it is God when something different, or opposite, may be the case. Books which tell us about God also tell us about, e.g. The Devil...
938:(1919), introducing a "theology of crisis," which, in rejection of Liberalism, reaffirmed Pauline, Augustinian, and Reformation doctrines of the divine initiative and the Bible as God's Word. In America, Reinhold Niebuhr similarly returned from Liberalism to Biblical and early Protestant points of emphasis."
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What we actually have, the reports, is three steps away from God, since a.) they are only human reports; b.) the people making the reports, no matter how sincere, well-motivated, intelligent and observant they may be, may still be mistaken; they may be delusions, or honest attempts to explain unusual
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Well, if you feel that way I am sure you can find a way to sort it out. I hope nobody feels reluctant to offer sources. Now, the EA says that one brother was "second to none in social concern", NOT in introducing to
America, but certainly that the introduction was due to him. The Oxford confirms both
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Again, let me quote "not least the fundamental one that there ever was any such 'movement' as neo-orthodoxy." For someone who claims to be a seminary professor on their user page, it seems virtually impossible for this to be true when even a collegiate dictionary states that neo-orthodoxy was in fact
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Please discuss your changes. Add something about
Barbour if you like. He was a decent scholar, a specialist in science & religion, but belonged to a previous generation. Moreover, I have not disputed the obvious fact that people use the term neo-orthodoxy. I am only pointing out that contemporary
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I believe documentation is needed for many claims in this article, not least the fundamental one that there ever was any such "movement" as neo-orthodoxy. It would help immensely if someone could document that a theologian associated with the term ever accepted it as a valid description of his or her
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Regarding 3rd-Opinion dispute. As I've learned at the library, the other most recent editor does indeed employ some good up-to-date sources, but his or her lede seemed out-of-line with other summaries, while the original (not written by me) was pretty much inline with them. If my actions or comments
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I seem to be talking to myself here, but against the possibility that someone else gets interested in this article, I will continue to do so. I believe it would be valuable to change the section on theological emphases. Much of what is there might more appropriately be part of the articles on Barth,
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I don't want to affront you, but I did a little
Googling of Thurneysen and wonder if someone might have questioned whether he met the test of notability. I would think Knowledge (XXG) would have an archive of deleted pages, so that the talk page could be reviewed, but if it does, I don't know where
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This is because "some theologians" looks like "weasel words", given the rather subjective evaluation the sentence represents, unless the ENTIRE statement can be attributed to some reliable source. Preferably that source should be attributed inline. Please add HERE verifiable and sourced statements
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I do not doubt that
Barbour uses the term. I am on vacation and cannot consult my copy of his book. I have cited several scholars who likewise use the term in often-contradictory ways. Please feel free to write about how Barbour uses the term. However, his use of the term does not contradict what I
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I have checked sources that use the term neo-orthodoxy for some of the individuals listed in the "Important
Figures" section, and can find no published source that associates Stringfellow, Lehmann, or Ellul with this term. I am tagging them as citation needed, and will delete them if no citation is
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It is so easy to word it according to the sources, which make it clear that both brothers were notable in this regard. Please do not refer to sources that you cannot produce or move the discussion to other matters; that defeats the object of the exercise. If there are sources that offer views that
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The material does not give prominence to the other brother as the introducer to
America but only as a prominent theologian. The version above contains all relevant material you have offered. One cannot attribute to these two sources statements that they do not make. The statement that the two were
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I would like this question to be sent to an
Orthodox theologian. I believe one critical point of clarification relates to the word "forensic". If you follow the link to the Knowledge (XXG) article you will only find it used as in crime scene investigations. In my limited understanding of Orthodox
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page xxxiii has this statement: "Tillich's career was begun when liberal theology was on the wane; he lived through the transitions of theology from the rise of 'crisis' theology to is transformation by Barth into neo-orthodoxy, and from the decline of Barth's influence to the paramountcy of
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What has been written by you not only ignores the original scholarship (which was not only accurate to the expert but plausible and uncontroversial to the general reader) but nearly obliterates it. If such sources exist to support what you wrote (which is highly suspect), then these sources
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Neo-orthodoxy along with
Fundamentalism is described as "anti-cultural moves, dictated by a fortress mentality. "They are defensive forms of Christian living in a complex world; attempts to remain free of or withdraw from the various cultural pressures that are thought to compromise their
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brothers were important. But you cannot claim absolute preeminence for both, much less attribute this judgment to "theologians" without attribution, on the basis of these sources. Is this such an important thing, that you would hold us up just to assert something that cannot be verified?
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are often grouped under the title 'neo-orthodox' to highlight their common interest in constructing a theology grounded on Reformation principles. At the time they often described it as a 'dialectical theology'. Its major characteristics are the critique of 19th- and early 20th-century
963:"Because neoorthodoxy emphasized the doctrine of sin, it was often considered pessimistic. In fact, it firmly believed in the power of God to renew human life. Its position was summed up in Jesus' words "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"
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seem "out of line", please produce those: it would be conscientious to find a way to incorporate that material. Please do not forget to make a concordance with the brothers' own pages and other articles. Please ask the other editors warmly to participate.
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I beg your pardon, but my revisions were richly sourced, unlike the original, without a hint of original research. I am reverting this back to the way it was. Please do not revert again without specifically discussing the changes here, as I have done all
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I added a section on theologians who have been called neo-orthodox, and some of the problems with that, and moved the existing statement that the term has largely been abandoned into the opening paragraph. I'm now looking for the original source of the
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theology, the word is used to critique Western theology's narrow interpretation of justification, that it, seeing God as a judge who pronounces the accused as guilty, but exonerated by grace. Orthodoxy has a broader definition of salvation as theosis.
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This is a serious matter, since people who think they have revelations from God are not shy in forcing their views on others. Obviously this would be wonderful if they were right -- but there is, um, at least the possibility that they are not.
1241:'s return from Liberalism to Biblical and early Protestant points of emphasis that marked the introduction of neoorthodoxy to America. Niehbur was second to none in his concern to apply Christianity to the social realm: his brother
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Opinion the third here. I understand why the reference was altered. The sentence was right in respect of one brother. The importance of the other has yet to be established. Can a well-sourced statement be found for him?
642:"not least the fundamental one that there ever was any such 'movement' as neo-orthodoxy." This is the basic motivation for the changes made. Let me point out to other editors that the term Neo-orthodoxy is well used by
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There is now an article on Thurneysen, and viewing its history reveals it has been in Knowledge (XXG) since November 2016, so that reveals it has entered Knowledge (XXG) after the above comments were typed.
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Firefly, I note that you have not replied nor contacted other involved editors, but have continued to edit. Would you like me to reword and reinsert the sentence, or suggest a version yourself, or what?
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I deleted this section, since no references were ever given after I marked it, and it seems to contradict the section on difficulties identifying theologians to whom the term can meaningfully be applied.
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Here's a minor third opinion, not on the substance which I know little about. But given this obviously is a contention version, either version should have inline citations - and with page numbers. See
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The article is full of references to revelations by God when what is actually meant is something quite different, human reports of what some, but not all, people believe to be revelations from God.
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I am curious why there is the necessity to distance Barth from the existentialism of say, Paul Tillich, who is also as a liberal theologian. I wonder whether it might be better to distance him from
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I've done a bit of editing to make this more readable. I'm not sure about the portion that is in parentheses though, and this might need to be further defined--perhaps through an example).
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Further please note that neither Niehbur's own article relates them straightforwardly to neo-orthodoxy. The requested data, if available, should be added there too, preferably first.
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Well, that would certainly explain it! I did ask at the Village Pump, and was directed to some off-site resources for deleted pages, but didn't find anything there, either.
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Barbour's usage in a textbook simply refutes your comments and your justifications for making changes. Other editors can figure out what's going on. Perhaps listing at
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The charge that neoorthodxy had no social or political concerns also was inaccurate. Barth threw himself into the struggle against Hitler and was forced to flee.
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This article says that "Karl Barth is the leading figure associated with the movement"(i.e. neo-orthodoxy) right at the start of the article, but the article on
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The material supports both brothers in the article, but the sentence taken out probably needs to be recast, rewritten, etc. to reflect known weaknesses. --
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1132:"I have something along those lines. I need to find an electronic version or quote part of it for you. I should have it up in ten to twenty minutes." --
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for the original editors. I think it can be left out for now, but your rewording and reinsertion would be another way forward. I leave it up to you. --
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809:. I personally feel such inline citations are more credible, whatever the disputed material is. Carol Moore 15:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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are both noteworthy figures for the article. Earlier editors material may need to be re-worked.--
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Hmmm..I could have sworn I saw him listed in Liberal Theologians..oh well..strike that comment. --
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Third opinion. I have removed the following statement temporarily and without prejudice;
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were too quick to judge or too crude in judgement, I fear I may have strayed into
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Neo-orthodoxy, xxix-xxxi, 25, 31, 173 is listed as an entry in its index (p.252)
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842:(1894-1962), did more to introduce neo-orthodoxy to America than anyone else.
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where we again see that your rewrite is, in comparison, off the wall. --
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would write something along those lines and possibly provide a tag as
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contradict scholars who are so much more respected and reliable, e.g.
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pages xxix-xxxiv have section title "From Orthodoxy to Neo-Orthodoxy"
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I am once again going to put back my well documented text, and call
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I always thought the sentence was weak. I only left it because of
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More Than Mere Documentation Needed: How About Truth In Labelling?
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have written, but is only an instance of one facet of the problem.
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was also prominent in the construction of neoorthodox theology.
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http://www.lutterworth.com/jamesclarke/jc/titles/karlbart.htm
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Why was the English language article on Thurneysen removed?
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Perspectives on 19th and 20th century Protestant theology
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says that Karl Barth rejected the term neo-orthodoxy.
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On Page 468 there is a neo-orthodoxy entry that notes
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and rediscovered in the 20th century by such men as
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Hope that no one minds the cross reference. Thanks.
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534:13:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
503:12:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
488:11:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
446:06:56, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
300:standards, or visit the
108:WikiProject Christianity
1715:External links modified
1586:it it. I'll asl around.
1315:Encyclopedia Americana
1215:, progress, politics,
881:Encyclopedia Americana
493:given in a day or two.
421:Modernist_Christianity
187:
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28:This article is rated
930:. Its chief prophet,
570:Reversion explanation
459:Neo-orthodox Theology
400:comment was added at
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131:Christianity articles
68:Reformed Christianity
32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
1764:regular verification
1665:The named reference
473:Documentation needed
278:WikiProject Religion
1754:After February 2018
740:usually disparaging
170:theology work group
100:Christianity portal
1808:InternetArchiveBot
1759:InternetArchiveBot
1448:Lutheran Orthodoxy
1442:Lutheran Orthodoxy
1319:H. Richard Niebuhr
1188:H. Richard Niebuhr
1180:Friedrich Gogarten
1075:Alister E. McGrath
875:Requested evidence
840:H. Richard Niebuhr
418:
415:liberal theologian
290:assess and improve
188:
164:
34:content assessment
1784:
1603:Eduard Thurneysen
1549:David Lloyd-Jones
1501:Eastern Orthodoxy
1495:Eastern Orthodoxy
1479:comment added by
1111:
1095:comment added by
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1054:comment added by
1017:
1001:comment added by
976:Soren Kierkegaard
656:pseudo-skepticism
469:12 December 2005
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988:Jean-Paul Sartre
980:Martin Heidegger
969:Reinhold Niebuhr
965:(Matthew 19:26).
838:(1892-1971) and
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676:'s attention to
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1481:91.176.103.3
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1184:Paul Tillich
1176:Emil Brunner
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984:Karl Jaspers
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895:Barth, Karl
888:
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811:Carolmooredc
739:
700:will help.--
573:
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365:198.151.35.6
356:
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292:articles to
283:
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122:Christianity
113:Christianity
106:
59:Christianity
40:WikiProjects
1475:—Preceding
1091:—Preceding
1050:—Preceding
997:—Preceding
788:Ian Barbour
717:Mtalleyrand
683:Mtalleyrand
644:Ian Barbour
622:Ian Barbour
607:Mtalleyrand
583:Mtalleyrand
575:Ian Barbour
556:Mtalleyrand
541:Mtalleyrand
526:Mtalleyrand
510:Mtalleyrand
495:Mtalleyrand
480:Mtalleyrand
467:FurciferRNB
396:—Preceding
359:—Preceding
30:Start-class
1828:Categories
1815:Report bug
1698:Karl Barth
1650:References
1562:Thurneysen
1520:Beau in NC
1426:Firefly322
1346:Firefly322
1327:Firefly322
1278:Firefly322
1221:Firefly322
1172:Karl Barth
1134:Firefly322
1097:Firefly322
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1003:Firefly322
932:Karl Barth
792:Firefly322
784:Britannica
766:Firefly322
762:Britannica
744:Firefly322
702:Firefly322
660:Firefly322
626:Firefly322
591:Firefly322
425:Liberalism
408:Karl Barth
1798:this tool
1791:this tool
1671:help page
1622:Dgndenver
1588:Dgndenver
1405:Redheylin
1381:Redheylin
1301:Redheylin
1247:Redheylin
1209:Holocaust
1120:Redheylin
862:Redheylin
848:Redheylin
756:Also the
1804:Cheers.—
1607:Rmhermen
1477:unsigned
1454:dixit. (
1213:religion
1203:and the
1105:contribs
1093:unsigned
1064:contribs
1052:unsigned
1013:) 19:03-
1011:contribs
999:unsigned
891::691-92
463:Theology
444:Randolph
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429:Randolph
373:contribs
361:unsigned
307:Religion
285:Religion
238:Religion
64:Theology
1728:my edit
1342:WP:BITE
1217:science
946::691-92
899::276-77
461:on the
398:undated
353:Editing
334:on the
149:on the
1702:Vorbee
1637:Vorbee
1452:Rursus
1422:WP:AGF
1261:Vorbee
1190:, and
1155:": -->
1087:praxis
986:, and
936:Romans
928:Newman
911:Quotes
887::660;
814:{talk}
650:. So
605:along.
389:Fintor
36:scale.
1205:world
678:WP:EW
587:WP:OR
524:term.
1706:talk
1641:talk
1626:talk
1611:talk
1592:talk
1577:talk
1553:talk
1524:talk
1509:talk
1485:talk
1458:bork
1430:talk
1409:talk
1385:talk
1350:talk
1344:. --
1331:talk
1321:and
1305:talk
1282:talk
1265:talk
1251:talk
1225:talk
1157:edit
1138:talk
1124:talk
1101:talk
1060:talk
1007:talk
921::660
906::654
866:talk
852:talk
796:talk
782:and
778:Are
770:talk
748:talk
742:. --
721:talk
706:talk
698:WP:3
687:talk
664:talk
630:talk
611:talk
595:talk
560:talk
545:talk
530:talk
514:talk
499:talk
484:talk
453:Link
417:, so
393:talk
369:talk
296:and
294:good
1772:RfC
1742:to
1667:BR1
1462:!)
1201:God
1077:'s
1024:'s
589:.--
326:Top
298:1.0
141:Top
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