Talk:South African farm attacks/Archive 5

1965:

reasonable. It is clearly incorrect ("South African farm attacks" do not "refer to a claim"; they are a real phenomenon), borderline nonsensical (how could an "attack" be a "claim"?), and unsupported by the sources (which treat the attacks as real, not as claims about racial statistics or motivations). This needs to be fixed, even if all the potential solutions are disliked by someone. If someone thinks the current lede should remain unchanged, I request that they explain how the current language is reasonable. It's not enough to claim that it represents a consensus; that it's the result of years of painstaking editing; or that you don't like any of the potential solutions. Explain how it is correct, how the wording is perfectly natural, and how the current sources support it. If we can't do that, the current wording must go, however which way (rewrite, move, split, or even delete).

717:

simply means that those outlets are controllable, i.e., they are beholden to and can be relied upon by entrenched political powers not to venture 'outside the box.' But reliability is a very lightweight consideration in terms of truthfulness and objectivity in journalism. Even if only 10 percent of what my cited sources say is correct, in conjunction with the sources we are already using, there is no room for debate about the inclusion of the word "occasionally." And much more than that could be said. The present South African regime is a damnable, execrable, anti-white, genocidal institution, exceeding by light years the racism of the DeKlerk administration, and systematically replicating Mugabe's Zimbabwe and the

2996:. The attacks target farmers, who are usually white, and farm workers, who are usually black. Black farmers are also victims of violent attacks. The term has no formal legal definition, but such attacks have been the subject of discussion by media and public figures in South Africa and abroad. There is insufficient data to reliably estimate a murder rate for South African farmers. South African government data indicated between 58 and 74 murders on farms annually in the period 2015–2017; out of an annual murder count of 20,000 total murders in South Africa; these figures are broadly consistent with figures collected by the 2023:. The attacks target farmers, who are usually white, and farm workers, who are usually black. Black farmers are also victims of violent attacks. The term has no formal legal definition, but such attacks have been the subject of discussion by media and public figures in South Africa and abroad. There is insufficient data to reliably estimate a murder rate for South African farmers. South African government data indicated between 58 and 74 murders on farms annually in the period 2015–2017; out of an annual murder count of 20,000 total murders in South Africa; these figures are broadly consistent with figures collected by the 469: 548:

both systematic and endemic. It is entirely appropriate to focus much more on white farmers because the number of attacks, especially fatal attacks, are exponentially greater. You can "not believe" that, but it doesn't change the fact. We must look at the sources overall, rather than focusing on just the three you cite above. It is true that attacks happen on black farmers too, and perhaps also at an increasing rate, but removing the word "occasionally" in this context presents a skewed perspective on the attacks because it creates a false balance

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per 100) . I have not read through every source cited in the article, but the article itself does not showcase any statistical data on the topic. What percentage of farm attack victims are white? Given that a sizable portion of the article is dedicated to debunking theories of "white genocide", we should include statistics that show the number of victims by race. If such evidence currently does not exist, then perhaps it is unwise to dismiss the notion that white farmers are being disproportionately targeted.

1903:. I favor keeping the status quo, since this article is about a series of farm attacks that have long been noted by criminologists, but have recently been seized upon by white genocide conspiracy theorists, and the conspiracy theory itself is only a complementary chunk of the article. I also favor changing the lead so that the first sentence refers to any attack on farms in South Africa, and immediately after that, why that is notable (i.e. among the conspiracy theorists). 31: 617:"reliable" as well as independent media), is necessary in order to discern the truth of what is actually taking place in South Africa. Corporate media narratives will tend to hedge the black-led government from criticism over its hostile, anti-white, pro-violent crime policies, which spill over even into the black community itself. To claim that they are statistically comparable is a false equivalence. - 420: 1241: 791:

theories which should be mentioned, but they do not define the phenomenon. If this article is really about claims and conspiracy theories, it should be moved to a new page (something like "White SA farmer genocide theory"?). I tried to rewrite the lede, but was reverted. Does anyone oppose rewriting the lede to a more straightforward definition?

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with "...refers to a claim that". If we are going to have an article on *South African farm attacks*, we should start by defining *South African farm attacks* (which is not a claim, but an actual phenomenon), like every other article on Knowledge. Again, is *South African farm attacks* a claim? Does any of the sources treat it as a claim?

1158:

exists a consensus at all, just an extremely awkward status quo. In that case, I will probably attempt an (even more limited) change. I wouldn't mind moving the article, but that would be a much more sweeping change. For the time being, we can easily improve the lede massively by simply changing the first sentence.

811:. Some sources do make a connection to the white genocide conspiracy theory and white nationalists, while others point to rhetoric that's been around since Apartheid. But most sources discussing the attacks in general simply debunk what's being said the public discourse without mentioning conspiracy theories at all. 1024:

expanded upon in the body. I also think the controversy should come *after* describing the scope of the attacks (number of attacks, trends etc.), which are basic facts that underlie the resulting controversy. There are also way too many sources given in the lede; they generally belong in the body. Any thoughts?

1380:– Reliable sources frequently refer to the claim that white South African farmers are targeted and/or disproportionally murdered in South Africa as a conspiracy theory. The most notable thing about the farm attacks in South Africa claim is their frequent usage by white nationalists and relationship to the 3996:

The term 'south african farm attacks' refers to the idea that whites are being disproportionately murdered? According to who? I have never heard a single person say this- ever, and the four sources you give as a citation are debunking it all without citing who exactly is making the claim in the first

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debunked, as there are no reliable figures suggesting that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. The African National Congress and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do

1157:

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't perceive Woodroar to be in disagreement with me concerning changing the first sentence, which is why I made a second attempt to change it. I do hope others join the discussion, to clarify why the current wording makes sense. If noone does, I don't think there really

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I've now been reverted twice, despite nobody actually arguing in favor of the current wording. Can someone explain why defining "South African farm attacks" as a "claim" is correct, and in line with Knowledge policy/conventions? Or come up with a better wording than mine, without reverting wholesale?

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There are tons of reliable figures. Articles, photos and videos. As someone who lives in South Africa and has been a victim, this is a real thing. Headlines have been made. Do research and stop changing it that it seems like a myth. It's LITERALLY on articles. It's impossible for thousands of people

205:- claiming that white farmers may be being targeted is an exceptional claim and requires exceptional evidence. The "base case" when someone makes an exceptional claim like that without evidence is that it is dismissed out of hand. Without that requirement, conspiracy theorists and proponents of other 97:

The article repeatedly claims that white farmers are not disproportionately targeted during farm attacks. That may or may not be true, but the article does not provide any statistics comparing the number of whites and blacks being killed (Stats show that white farmers are being killed at a rate of 56

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It seems this article has lately been improved at great pains. It still has obvious problems. The ethnicity of victims is discussed at the outset to make it clear that Black farmers and farm workers are also targeted; the ethnicity of perpetrators is not mentioned. (Too obvious? Well, there are poor

2818:

My preference is somewhere between the current and 2019 leads. I think that the 2019 lead is marginally better from an "introducing the subject to readers" perspective, and I'd like to see that preserved. But that lead also omits the whole reason that this subject is notable: AfriForum and Transvaal

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implementing this change to the lede. The most notable aspects of the farm attacks is their frequent usage as a white nationalist conspiracy theory. Research and reliable sources, as is repeatedly shown in this article, maintain that farm attacks are a part of a larger crime problem in South Africa.

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The current lede goes into very minute detail about a specific controversy regarding these farm attacks (whether they are racially motivated or not). While that controversy is indeed a very important aspect of the attacks, it could probably be much more succinctly summarized in the lede, and instead

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The article on Islamic terrorism also includes analysis on individual terrorists with completely different motivations from the organizations, acting separately from them. The only thing they have in common is that they conduct *Islamic terrorism*. But that's not an argument for starting the article

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I think the analogy with Islamic terrorism is comparing apples with oranges. Our article on Islamic terrorism includes expert analysis on actual terror campaigns and the organizations behind them. The South African farm attacks, on the other hand, are largely separate attacks that some groups/people

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The removal of the word "occasionally" was done prematurely. The fact that claims are "heavily disputed" means that distortion, obfuscation and obscurantism concerning these attacks is taking place. Closer analysis of facts and statistics, and comparison of all available sources (both those deemed

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This article treats Farm Murders like a conspiracy theory and the see also also leads to Conspiracy Theory's. My problem is that we should reword it, maybe with an emphasis that there are farmers being killed, and it's not just Afrikaners, there have also been reports of Zulu, Xhosa and other tribes

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Hi I have to agree that the overall impression I get from the article is that it weighs especially to debunk theories of "white genocide". With regards to your proposal to include the race classification of victims; if you read the sources you will find that the statistics doesn't always mention the

4019:

Exactly. The article is in such a hurry to dismiss a proposed take on farm attacks as a White supremacist talking point that it forgets to define and discuss the phenomenon in the first place. Which at least makes the piece as it currently is so blatantly biased that it's immediately obvious what's

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You're the one who decided to deflect away from the article. You're saying the name can't enforced a POV or describe something, but plenty of articles already do that, especially articles to do with the white genocide bull. In additon to that the article title wrogly implies that the article refers

1099:

You made a change to the article lede, saying "See talk page" in the edit summary, and 11 minutes later you opened this section about the article lede, which you now tell me isn't what you referred to by asking people to see talk page. It seems to me you were asking for misunderstanding. But you're

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about adding context about what the South African farm attacks are. My preference is to explain when the attacks started—if we can find that in sources, so far I'm not having any luck—rather than yearly murders because it avoids fluctuation. But if you (or any other page watchers) have suggestions,

916:

The sources cited for the current definition clearly treat South African farm attacks as an actually occuring phenomenon, rather than a speculative claim. The first source analyses a "Recent spate of farm attacks", the second "a spate of farm murders in the Cape". The third claims that "Attacks on

833:

Why does the lede need to start with "South African farm attacks refers to a claim"? South African farm attacks clearly do occur, regardless of their motivations or disparate impacts on certain racial groups. Does any of the current sources contradict a much more straight-forward opening sentence,

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NYT, WaPo, ABC and the BBC have ALL had multiple embarrassing and revealing scandals undermining their credibility. BBC was recently forced to admit falsifying and destroying documents relating to the death of Princess Diana so as not to impugn the monarchy. "Reliability" is not credibility. It

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is always a limitation when talking about data); as the sources for the statement make clear, anyone who says that white farmers are being targeted is speaking without evidence and ought to be dismissed on those grounds. Any other wording would imply that there is ambiguity or uncertainty on that

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place. The claim is that white farmers are being murdered because they are white farmers. What does the proportion of other people being murdered for other reasons have to do with anything? This article reads like a Snopes fact check- sticking a claim in somebody's mouth so it can be disproved.

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by placing the bulk of those responses in the third paragraph. My ideal lead would include an introduction of what the South African farm attacks are, perhaps the first three sentences of the 2019, and then move onto the claims and responses. Then we could dig into statistics, though much of that

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I do not believe the title infers that. The farm attack conspiracy theory, as sources describe it, is the claim that white South African farmers are attacked/murdered disproportionately or are targeted because of their race. Sources consistently describe this as a conspiracy theory not founded in

1114:

Sorry for the confusion. But again, can you help us reach the desired consensus (preferably in the other section)? The discussion has been going on for almost a week, and nobody has opposed changing the wording of the starting sentence. The issue has also been brought up in other sections on this

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can't touch the lead at all. I agree that we should include some context, whether it's your suggestion of crimes/murders per year or maybe a number of attacks since 1996? But we should immediately go into summarizing and debunking the claims about the attacks

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The word "occasionally" is both appropriate and due, because it not only reflects the proportion of the attacks on black-owned farms compared to white-owned farms (a few dozen compared to multiplied hundreds), but also reflects the fact that the former is an incidental anomaly while the latter is

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I’m ok with reverting the opening sentence to the version above (I believe I wrote most of that sentence and it was both durable and factual and reflected consensus at the time). Perhaps we should solicit the opinion of the editor who rewrote the opening sentence and get their opinion on this. I

962:

Thanks for the clarification. I now realize that I was probably reverted mainly for moving most of the lede into the body, rather than changing the opening sentence. I've therefore rewritten only the opening sentence, to make it clearer what the article is actually about. I agree that the "every

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The current lede's definition of "South African farm attacks" is obviously odd, and probably unsupported by the sources. In normal usage, "South African farm attacks" refers to attacks on farms in South Africa, not to claims or conspiracy theories. The phenomenon might have associated claims and

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Not many would dispute that a few dozen compared to 3,000 is absolutely "occasional." It should not be necessary to engage in a raging debate over a single word just to place those numbers into proper perspective. The denialism by corporate media of government-sponsored white genocide in South

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The negation is problematic and is also the source of the ambiguity. Everything becomes clearer if the negation is removed. As an example: "Reliable data shows that the risk of being targeted is uniform across ethnicities" which a) both confirms there is reliable data and b) what conclusions are

1964:

Attempts to alter the lede are met with reverts and suggestions to move the article; attempts to move the article are met with opposition and suggestions to rewrite the lede. Yet we must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I've yet to see anyone actually argue that the current lede is

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The conspiracy theory is based on the very real — and very controversial — issue of post-apartheid land reform in South Africa. But the white nationalists who propagate it have taken what is a genuinely thorny issue and magnified it beyond all objective fact, twisting it into what they see as a

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Sorry, I'm not up for that — it would involve more reading and writing than I have time for right now. But I do see your point that the article name and the definition involving a "claim" are a poor fit. I would have thought changing the article name was the better course, since the present one

806:

The lead has 28 sources, 16 in the first paragraph alone. That's a lot. At a glance, they do verify the content in the article: that white farmers don't appear to be murdered disproportionately (and that black farmers/workers are murdered as well), that white farmers don't appear to be targeted

1456:"The “large scale killings” phrase included in Trump’s tweet was an invocation of “white genocide,” a conspiracy theory popular among white supremacists who have for years been attempting to advance the baseless claim that white South African farmers are being systematically murdered en masse." 818:

conspiracy theory naming because most reliable sources don't make that connection. I would also not support a significant rewrite of the lead that separates "this is what people are saying" from "this is why that's wrong" because most reliable sources take that debunking angle. We would need a

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White nationalists in the US and South Africa, where a fringe group called Afriforum has advanced the conspiracy theory, hailed the President's remarks. David Duke, a former Ku Klux Klan leader, thanked Trump on Twitter and tweeted an image of a white woman holding a sign reading, "Stop white

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You've linked a few articles mentioning violent rhetoric but nothing about actually killings. Do you have sources about killings, specifically showing that they're politically/racially-motivated and that white farmers are disproportionately targeted? Or that "South African farm attacks" isn't

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theories could always dream up some additional possibilities that extend outside of whatever data is provided to them, imagining vast and terrible fantasies like these just outside the bounds of available data, then insisting that we treat them seriously despite the total and complete lack of

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The lede used to be about attacks, rather than “claims about attacks” until fairly recently. If the lede needs to be rewritten to reflect the current title, that would be better than moving the article. But I personally don’t see any problem with either the article title or the current

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If the reason for this second revert was that I removed the sources for the original "definition", I'm fine with putting them elsewhere in the lede or body. They just don't support the new definition; nor did they actually support the previous definition (as discussed above).

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are... a conspiracy theory (not real), so it's not ideal. However, until an appropriate name is devised, the current title clearly refers to the actual *attacks* (which are real), and the lede should be rewritten to reflect that. After the move, the lede can be reverted.

1783:, as the new title implies there are no farm attacks in South Africa, and the current title implies that this article is meant to refer to the very real attacks that mostly effect the black South Africans, but instead talks about white supremacy and conspiracy theories. 1134:

is against any "conspiracy theory naming", for what seem to me to be cogent reasons. Perhaps the two of you could work out a different kind of article name together? Or you can try to get more people involved - two is a lonely number. One way of doing this is to use the

1442:"There is no evidence to support that. There is no evidence that a group of people are killing farmers for political purposes. There is no evidence that they are doing it because they are listening to political leaders. It is happening because of crime,” says Newham. 3881: 2213: 2904:

Data released by the South African government in 2018 showed that the number of attacks on farms had increased between 2012 and 2018, but that the number of murders on farms had decreased year by year during the period. During the same year farming organisation

1620:. While the rhetoric from AfriForum and Transvaal Agricultural Union (and others) does sound like conspiratorial thinking, reliable sources tend not to call it that. I searched for "conspiracy" in all 28 sources used in the lead, and it's used only twice: by 2912:

Data released by the South African government in 2018 showed that the number of farm attacks had increased between 2012 and 2018, but that the number of murders on farms had decreased year by year during the period. During the same year farming organisation

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President Donald Trump's promotion of a white nationalist conspiracy theory involving South Africa has prompted a fierce backlash there and fresh criticism in the United States that he is compromising American foreign policy to stoke his far-right political

760:"The present South African regime is a damnable, execrable, anti-white, genocidal institution, exceeding by light years the racism of the DeKlerk administration" - you're living in a parallel universe. That comment is disgusting and frankly deeply racist. 2801:

I think that's obviously preferable to the status quo, but removing two years worth of editing is a big change which will meet with much resistance. My first priority is to change at least the first sentence, without getting stonewalled forever.

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I applaud your effort to have the article moved. Does that mean you agree the current article/lede is not a good fit with the title? The current title refers to the *attacks*, not the associated *claim* (that white farmers are being targetted).

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farms (...) are the nightmarish reality for those living and working on the land in South Africa". (The fourth is paywalled.) They clearly support a much more straightforward definition of *South African farm attacks* as a real phenomenon.

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The basic premise of these sources is that farm attack victims include both white and black victims, but that black victims are undercounted (or even uncounted) while more attention is being put on white victims. I don't believe that

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When we say that there is no standard name for an idea, it means that there are many names for it. If this were the case here, there would be many search results on Google to reliable sources to these names, including the one you

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because they're white, that factors like distance/response time explain the crimes, and so on. Looking through Google news, this seems like a fair representation of the viewpoints in reliable sources, and perfectly in line with

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mentions how black farmers and workers have been victims but that they don't get media attention, unlike white victims. The article opens by discussing the identities of 2 murder victims and later mentions more than 60 other

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it produced four hits, all to Knowledge, one of which was to this discussion. So basically "South African farm attacks conspiracy theory" is a term invented by Knowledge editors – what is being proposed is a clear breach of

451:

This page needs to be removed and replaced with real facts, as is this page is racist and anti minorities, please show me one statistic from a NON ANC sourse thats supports any of the claims made by this biased reporting.

3000:(TAU), a farmers' union. Due to the problems associated with counting the number of South African farmers and farm murders, it is unclear whether farmers are at greater risk of being murdered than other South Africans. 2027:(TAU), a farmers' union. Due to the problems associated with counting the number of South African farmers and farm murders, it is unclear whether farmers are at greater risk of being murdered than other South Africans. 1406:

The conspiracy theory of “white genocide” has been a staple of the racist far right for decades. It has taken many forms, but all of them imagine that there is a plot to either replace, remove or simply liquidate white

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broke down the reasons why it's difficult to know either way. I mean, that's what the article is about, isn't it? There are attacks, some groups say that white farmers are disproportionately targeted/murdered, and

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The biggest problem with AfriForum’s claims about possible ethnic cleansing and farm murders is that they are not true, says Gareth Newham of the Institute of Security Studies (ISS), a South African research

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So a .org, an unreliable source, a source with no consensus as to its reliability, and a letter to the editor. Compared to, say, The Washington Post, Australian ABC, and the BBC. That's not going to move

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process, which is specifically helpful for disagreements where only two editors are involved. But if you think, like me, that changing the article name is the better option, you can go straight to

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Having just read the article properly, I can’t believe how biased the entire article is. Political leaders of South Africa have on numerous occasions incited their followers to kill white farmers

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in this article, and activist editing simply discredits the encyclopedia. Most readers are intelligent enough to draw reasonable conclusions about the material without being bashed on the head.

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The idea that there is a ‘genocide’ of white farmers in South Africa was once the province of conspiracy theorists but, thanks to News Corp’s media promotion, it has moved into the policy realm

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implementing this change as soon as possible. Any corrections or improvements can be addressed later, including whether to change the article name. (Although "disbunked" should be "debunked".)

148:; this is cited to seven high-quality sources. In other words, the claims that the attacks disproportionately target whites are without basis; demanding that the article include statistics to 883:

to be anti-white organized crime. That's why we use "claims" so much. Reliable sources aren't dismissing the attacks as "claims", only that they're connected as "anti-white organized crime".

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at some point, which I doubt was the intention of NOM. We’d lose years of painstaking editing and consensus as the redirect will be replaced by an article discussing “actual farm attacks”.

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Agricultural Union (and others) made claims about white people are being disproportionately attacked, and media almost universally debunked those claims. In addition, the 2019 version

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year"-wording is somewhat awkward and slightly irrelevant, but it's the best I can come up with for now. I'm fine with basically anything that doesn't define the attacks as a "claim".

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If there is no "standard" name for this claim/theory, is it autimatically Original Research to create a Knowledge article about it? What do we then do about the article as it stands?

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to the very real issue of SA farmers being attacked (a majority being black) instead of the conspiracy theory that the attacks target white people and are a form of anti-white racism

864:

refers to the claim that Muslims are disproportionally represented among terrorists"? Whether or not the latter claim is true, I think the current lede is obviously more appropriate.

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The current lede states that the attacks "refer" to a "claim". This is clearly incorrect. I have yet to see anyone explain otherwise, and so it should be fixed as soon as possible.

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worldwide. However, there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. The

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An awful lot of the sentences are the same. In some cases, POV wording has been substituted, e.g. changing "The Government of South Africa" to "The African National Congress".

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genocide". Mike Peinovich, a far-right podcast host, called Trump's endorsement "Very big" and said "this is how we slowly chip away at the all-consuming anti-white discourse".

1067:. I've reverted it. Please do not restore unless and until a consensus forms here. At a minimum, there needs to be a discussion of the sources (which were all removed by you). 4029: 3542: 2662: 1864:

and cautiously adding more up to date information from the present version, focussing on farm attacks in South Africa, and only mentioning the claims by Afrikaner extremists.

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not have a racial motivation. The claims are a key element of the white genocide conspiracy theory and have become a common talking point among white nationalists worldwide.

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also mentions how white victims get more attention than black victims, as the term "farm attack" can exclude black victims and because AfriForum reports on white victims.

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However, there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. The

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White South Africans, too.) Nor does the article discuss the widely reported circumstance that farm murders often involve extreme violence, rape, torture and maiming.

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reported on police statistics which suggested that the murder rate on farms had declined to the lowest level in 20 years, to a third of the level recorded in 1998.

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reported on police statistics which suggested that the murder rate on farms had declined to the lowest level in 20 years, to a third of the level recorded in 1998.

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reported on police statistics which suggested that the murder rate on farms had declined to the lowest level in 20 years, to a third of the level recorded in 1998.

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Exactly. So with the current text, the article should be moved. If it isn't moved (which seems likely, given the response so far), the lede should be rewritten.

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I have not read any reliable sources that say black farmers and workers are "occasionally" victims; the three cited to that statement clearly do not support it.

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There are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. The

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The proposed title infers that farm attacks do not take place at all, which is inaccurate. The conspiracy theory refers to claims of genocide amd the like.

3220: 2434: 1051:) refers to the claim that white South African farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the murder rate in the general population of South Africa." with 172:

there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed

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there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed

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have claimed that white South African farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the general population of South Africa. Such claims have largely been

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I would prefer to add a new sentence and then tweak later sentences for flow. (I'd also prefer if we could develop a consensus before making any more

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that the attacks are real and that reliable sources acknowledge that. As I mentioned above, we use "claims", as reliable sources do, to refer to the

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refers to terrorist acts with religious motivations carried out by fundamentalist militant Islamists". Should it be changed to something like, "

575: 3498: 2634: 1632:. It's clear that most sources consider the rhetoric worthy of being debunked but they rarely go so far as to call it a conspiracy theory. 1329:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

1039:

My thought is that you have no consensus for the very drastic change you have made to the lede by replacing the first sentence "The term

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and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation.

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and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation.

2049:

and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation.

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There's a world of difference between "there is no reliable data on this" and "the data does not support such a claim" ... the wording

1085:, where nobody objected to changing the opening section. Please do add your thoughts to that discussion, so we can reach a consensus. 690: 457: 685: 1666:. Any new title should preferably allow for creating a new article about the actual attacks, if they become relevant in the future. 3179: 2408: 1377: 273:

to claim it when there is figures and evidence. Our economy also shows it. You are suppose to be giving facts not false theories.

2934: 2923: 2038: 1528: 1381: 736: 3972:, without any discussion, and just stayed that way. Now I'm confused why trying to change it again is causing so much pushback. 652:

through statistics, especially those from unreliable sources, to determine how many murders of black people feels "occasional".

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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a

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I agree. I think because a larger proportion of farmers are white, the percentage of white’s being killed on farms are higher.

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Africa is both galling and appalling, and it's not just farmers either. But you asked for sources, so here are just a few:

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to describe attacks on black farmers and workers. I believe this description runs counter to what the sources actually say:

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This section is about a proposed change which I haven't made. The change you reverted was based on the discussion in a

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reasonable based on such data. Conspiracy theories do not interest me and wasn't the point of my previous point.

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Heavily disputed claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whites are a key element of the

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There are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers...are at a disproportionate risk of being killed.

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Unsubstantiated claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whites are a key element of the

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Unsubstantiated claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whites are a key element of the

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significant number of reliable sources to flip the prominence of that viewpoint and I'm just not seeing that.

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is a notable topic. "South African farm attacks conspiracy theory" is an idea created by Knowledge editors.

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murders—and the sources above mention that murders of black farmers and farm workers often go unreported.

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The named reference "theSouthAfrican25Apr19" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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The named reference "theSouthAfrican25Apr19" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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cites another report saying 59 out of 84 in a calendar year were white (just over 70%). That's based on

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The named reference "southAfricanLowest20" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the murder rate in the general population of South Africa.

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farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the murder rate in the general population of South Africa."

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farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the murder rate in the general population of South Africa.

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In recent decades, dozens of South African farmers and farm workers have been murdered each year in

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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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amongst many other publications, so I don’t know how this can be classed as conspiracy theories.

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The named reference "agriSA20Years" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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The named reference "agriSAsource3" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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The named reference "agriSAsource2" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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doesn't seem to fit the article very well altogether. In my opinion. However, I see above that

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The named reference "agriSAsource" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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The named reference "iol20190129" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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Farm Attacks or ‘White Genocide’? Interrogating the unresolved land question in South Africa

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cites a report saying 46 of 62 murder victims in a season were white (just under 75%) while

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https://www.iol.co.za/news/opinion/bloodbath-on-cape-flats-should-make-us-worried-29128036

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https://www.iol.co.za/news/opinion/bloodbath-on-cape-flats-should-make-us-worried-29128036

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White Genocide? South African Politician: Kill Whites, “Their Women,” and “Their Children”

649: 380: 332: 296: 2992:) are violent crimes, including murder, assault and robbery, that take place on farms in 2019:) are violent crimes, including murder, assault and robbery, that take place on farms in 1625: 1412:

Trump’s tweet echoing white nationalist propaganda about South African farmers, explained

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Please cite your sources so that Knowledge can judge whether or not they are reliable.

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The named reference ":23" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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The named reference ":13" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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The named reference ":63" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

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Heavily disputed claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whites

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The named reference ":1" was defined multiple times with different content (see the

3837:"Blood in the dust: The plight of South African farmers is far from black or white" 3695: 2993: 2975: 2705: 2169:"Blood in the dust: The plight of South African farmers is far from black or white" 2020: 1957: 1705: 1395: 252: 230: 175: 1624:

to say that white South Africans believe the attacks are a conspiracy, and by the

376: 3626: 3401:"Trump Cites False Claims of Widespread Attacks on White Farmers in South Africa" 2561:"Trump Cites False Claims of Widespread Attacks on White Farmers in South Africa" 2251: 1509:. UPDATE: changing this to Strong Oppose as this looks like it would result in a 583: 2866: 2845: 1983: 1867: 1848: 1812: 1741: 1650: 1549: 1514: 1357: 887:

because, as far as I can tell, that's what many or most reliable sources cover.

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black farmers and their workers are occasionally also victims of violent attacks

46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

3656:"Analysis | President Trump's false claim about murders on South African farms" 2681:"Analysis | President Trump's false claim about murders on South African farms" 3865:"Farmers in South Africa claim they are being targeted in 'horrific' attacks" 2197:"Farmers in South Africa claim they are being targeted in 'horrific' attacks" 1649:

per others above. The current title is also shorter than the proposed title.

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talk-page as far back as half a year ago, but has gotten almost no response.

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The article is already about the conspiracy theories. The first sentence is:

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say that's either false or it's impossible to know. Our lead even mentions

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They're prepping for a race war. And they see Trump as their 'ray of hope'

3067:"Farm attacks and murders: This is SA's most deadly province for farmers" 2329:"Farm attacks and murders: This is SA's most deadly province for farmers" 3221:"Farm murders lowest in 20 years, 'remoteness' the reason for brutality" 3098:"On farm attacks - AgriSA; Farm attacks one of Agriculture's challenges" 2435:"Farm murders lowest in 20 years, 'remoteness' the reason for brutality" 2357:"On farm attacks - AgriSA; Farm attacks one of Agriculture's challenges" 523:

mentions 30 murders in one province that weren't reported by the media.

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White farmers: how a far-right idea was planted in Donald Trump's mind

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I very much agree there has to be better statistical sources, if any.

3327:"AfriForum says farm murders decreasing as farmers are fighting back" 3071: 2914: 2906: 2508:"AfriForum says farm murders decreasing as farmers are fighting back" 2333: 2031: 1450: 1447:

Is a ‘Large-Scale Killing’ of White Farmers Underway in South Africa?

3582:"Recent spate of farm attacks dispels 'racially motivated' rhetoric" 2096:"Recent spate of farm attacks dispels 'racially motivated' rhetoric" 1237:

My fingers were definitely moving faster than my brain on that one.

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free to try to gain consensus in whichever section you like, AFAIC.

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How a Survivor of a South African White Farm Murder is Fighting Back

3937:"FACTSHEET: Statistics on farm attacks and murders in South Africa" 2300:"FACTSHEET: Statistics on farm attacks and murders in South Africa" 1779:

I believe that this article should instead be named something like

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the word "occasionally" and we can discuss it. We're not going to

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a claim that has no basis to begin with doesn't make any sense. --

3499:"Donald Trump's land seizures tweet sparks anger in South Africa" 2635:"Donald Trump's land seizures tweet sparks anger in South Africa" 2898:

Extracts from the version of the lead of 02:36, 23 December 2019

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The lede should focus on the conspiracy, not just farm attacks.

3895:"Black farmers 'besieged' by attackers, stock thieves – union" 3470:"Fox's Carlson stunned by reaction to stories on South Africa" 2893:

Extracts from the version of the lead of 09:40, 21 April 2022‎

2609:"Fox's Carlson stunned by reaction to stories on South Africa" 2227:"Black farmers 'besieged' by attackers, stock thieves – union" 1430: 1176:

changes to the article.) My suggestion is something like this:

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for a more focused discussion of, potentially, a new name.

3362: 3360: 3139:"SA farm murder stats: How the wrong figure became 'fact'" 2383:"SA farm murder stats: How the wrong figure became 'fact'" 3576: 3574: 3572: 3570: 3568: 3430:"South Africa hits back at Trump over land seizure tweet" 2587:"South Africa hits back at Trump over land seizure tweet" 989:

I'm fine with almost any other wording than the current.

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https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/myth-white-genocide

3262:"Farm murders at their lowest rate in 20 years - report" 2461:"Farm murders at their lowest rate in 20 years - report" 2277:

https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/myth-white-genocide

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satisfies neither of those things yet it still exists.

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Apparently the leading sentence was introduced by one

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No, it is (and must remain) entirely unambiguous. The

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Farm killings and conspiracy theories on South Africa

3627:"Are protesters right on South Africa farm murders?" 2252:"Are protesters right on South Africa farm murders?" 395:connected to the White Genocide conspiracy theory? 114:

race of the victims among other statistical issues.

1781:White South African farm attacks conspiracy theory 3214: 3212: 3173: 3171: 3132: 3130: 838:lead to tens of murders of farmers and staff."? 3091: 3089: 1860:There is also a lot to be said to reverting to 411:Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2021 3321: 3319: 2824:should be rewritten based on current sources. 2002:Version of the lead of 02:36, 23 December 2019 1802:"South African farm attacks conspiracy theory" 1422:nightmare cautionary tale of “white genocide.” 735:I'll wait for reliable sources, thanks. Also, 691:White Genocide Nearly Imminent in South Africa 3497:Burke, Jason; Smith, David (23 August 2018). 2937:and have become a common talking point among 2926:and have become a common talking point among 2633:Burke, Jason; Smith, David (23 August 2018). 2041:and have become a common talking point among 311:We need to change this whole thing's wording. 8: 3180:"Agri SA responds to farm murder statistics" 2409:"Agri SA responds to farm murder statistics" 1980:I would prefer something like the following. 1668:South African farm attacks conspiracy theory 1378:South African farm attacks conspiracy theory 636:added an adjective, your edit was reverted ( 3992:South Africa Farm Attacks refers to *what*? 3696:"SA rejects Trump tweet on farmer killings" 2706:"SA rejects Trump tweet on farmer killings" 566:But the number of attacks on white farmers 3998: 3778: 3776: 3621: 3619: 3617: 3615: 1384:. Information about crime can be added to 1319:The following is a closed discussion of a 2246: 2244: 2242: 1338:The result of the move request was: page 786:Are "South African farm attacks" a claim? 3803: 3801: 2888: 1997: 1548:. Let’s keep the focus on this article. 646:a reliable source that directly supports 196:data does not support such a claim (and 3814:was invoked but never defined (see the 3789:was invoked but never defined (see the 3764:was invoked but never defined (see the 3373:was invoked but never defined (see the 3307:was invoked but never defined (see the 3052: 3017: 2784:was invoked but never defined (see the 2762:was invoked but never defined (see the 2539:was invoked but never defined (see the 2491:was invoked but never defined (see the 2146:was invoked but never defined (see the 2080: 2063: 1141:Knowledge:Requested moves/Controversial 3719: 3717: 3690: 3688: 3650: 3648: 3492: 3490: 3464: 3462: 3424: 3422: 3395: 3393: 3391: 3389: 3387: 3385: 2555: 2553: 2551: 1943: 1475: 1469: 1455: 1441: 1435: 1420: 1405: 1400: 1179: 1052: 856:as an example. The lede starts with, " 645: 596: 592: 529: 454:2C0F:F4C0:230E:AAC:9960:FC2A:BB53:C814 171: 145: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3537: 3535: 3533: 3531: 3137:Van Zyl, Gareth (14 September 2018). 2657: 2655: 2381:Van Zyl, Gareth (14 September 2018). 834:such as "Every year, several hundred 739:. Aren't you topic banned from this? 721:in slow motion, on a larger scale. - 7: 1238: 814:I would not support a move based on 201:point, which there is not. See also 3806: 3781: 3756: 3671: 3598: 3551: 3514: 3445: 3365: 3343: 3299: 3277: 3236: 3195: 3154: 3113: 2840:certainly don’t think we should be 2776: 2754: 2531: 2483: 2138: 2112: 1188:). Afrikaner activist groups like 681:South Africa Facing White Genocide 93:Percentage of White Murder Victims 24: 3835:Topsfield, Jewel (23 June 2018). 3260:Breakfast, Siviwe (31 May 2018). 2974:) refers to the claim that white 2459:Breakfast, Siviwe (31 May 2018). 2167:Topsfield, Jewel (23 June 2018). 1956:) refers to the claim that white 1704:) refers to the claim that white 2935:white genocide conspiracy theory 2924:white genocide conspiracy theory 2039:white genocide conspiracy theory 1927:The discussion above is closed. 1628:to describe conspiracy theorist 1529:White genocide conspiracy theory 1382:white genocide conspiracy theory 1239: 936:I'd like to hear them. And yes, 737:White genocide conspiracy theory 467: 418: 249:because the data is not recorded 29: 1862:the version of 23 December 2019 18:Talk:South African farm attacks 4013:04:32, 29 September 2021 (UTC) 1807:Knowledge:No original research 1: 3863:Wallen, Joe (19 March 2018). 3096:Visser, Kobus (31 May 2018). 3065:Spies, Derrick (5 May 2018). 2355:Visser, Kobus (31 May 2018). 2327:Spies, Derrick (5 May 2018). 2195:Wallen, Joe (19 March 2018). 1936:Is the status quo acceptable? 1711:That is a conspiracy theory. 632:That's not how it works. You 489:01:18, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 462:01:03, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 405:16:07, 14 November 2021 (UTC) 389:12:39, 14 November 2021 (UTC) 355:16:02, 14 November 2021 (UTC) 341:12:26, 14 November 2021 (UTC) 3219:Bornman, Jan (31 May 2018). 3178:Uys, Gerhard (31 May 2018). 2998:Transvaal Agricultural Union 2433:Bornman, Jan (31 May 2018). 2407:Uys, Gerhard (31 May 2018). 2025:Transvaal Agricultural Union 1501:the current title satisfies 1312:Requested move 14 April 2022 1194:Transvaal Agricultural Union 642:you bear the burden of proof 499:The word "occasionally" was 326:08:38, 26 October 2021 (UTC) 174:is ambiguous on this point. 140:02:39, 17 October 2020 (UTC) 108:04:31, 11 January 2020 (UTC) 445:to reactivate your request. 433:has been answered. Set the 4067: 3982:11:42, 21 April 2022 (UTC) 2982:South African farm attacks 2964:South African farm attacks 2960: 2955:Government of South Africa 2944: 2920: 2902: 2890: 2874:11:05, 21 April 2022 (UTC) 2854:10:59, 21 April 2022 (UTC) 2834:13:00, 21 April 2022 (UTC) 2812:10:18, 21 April 2022 (UTC) 2047:Government of South Africa 2009:South African farm attacks 2006: 1999: 1991:08:50, 21 April 2022 (UTC) 1975:07:29, 21 April 2022 (UTC) 1946:South African farm attacks 1940:The lede currently reads: 1922:04:42, 18 April 2022 (UTC) 1896:22:10, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1875:14:06, 16 April 2022 (UTC) 1856:09:07, 16 April 2022 (UTC) 1839:South African farm attacks 1834:07:01, 16 April 2022 (UTC) 1820:21:29, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1800:I did a Google search for 1793:20:28, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1764:00:53, 16 April 2022 (UTC) 1750:14:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1735:02:21, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1721:02:00, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1694:South African farm attacks 1685:01:16, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1672:South African farm attacks 1659:16:41, 14 April 2022 (UTC) 1642:12:35, 14 April 2022 (UTC) 1611:11:08, 14 April 2022 (UTC) 1596:10:49, 14 April 2022 (UTC) 1573:21:17, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1558:21:11, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1541:20:31, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1523:08:18, 14 April 2022 (UTC) 1488:04:41, 14 April 2022 (UTC) 1374:South African farm attacks 1367:09:39, 21 April 2022 (UTC) 1290:01:19, 15 April 2022 (UTC) 1275:04:14, 14 April 2022 (UTC) 1254:01:18, 14 April 2022 (UTC) 1233:00:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC) 1215:22:32, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 1182:South African farm attacks 1168:10:41, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 1152:09:16, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 1125:05:24, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 1109:04:35, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 1095:04:18, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 1076:03:48, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 1055:South African farm attacks 1041:South African farm attacks 1034:03:30, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 1014:04:24, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 999:04:21, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 973:03:22, 13 April 2022 (UTC) 942:rhetoric about the attacks 836:South African farm attacks 770:15:47, 12 April 2022 (UTC) 749:13:01, 12 April 2022 (UTC) 731:23:45, 11 April 2022 (UTC) 712:22:25, 11 April 2022 (UTC) 662:12:20, 11 April 2022 (UTC) 627:02:49, 11 April 2022 (UTC) 609:04:03, 10 April 2022 (UTC) 589:plenty of reliable sources 562:03:17, 10 April 2022 (UTC) 542:01:29, 10 April 2022 (UTC) 431:South African farm attacks 305:18:10, 6 August 2021 (UTC) 261:19:09, 19 March 2021 (UTC) 239:07:00, 18 March 2021 (UTC) 220:12:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC) 184:05:37, 17 March 2021 (UTC) 162:19:07, 16 March 2021 (UTC) 4030:01:14, 2 April 2022 (UTC) 3842:The Sydney Morning Herald 3762:702burgerafriforumworkers 2948:African National Congress 2174:The Sydney Morning Herald 2144:702burgerafriforumworkers 1053:"Every year, hundreds of 1019:Length and detail of lede 958:23:55, 9 April 2022 (UTC) 927:23:03, 9 April 2022 (UTC) 912:22:08, 9 April 2022 (UTC) 897:16:02, 8 April 2022 (UTC) 874:03:20, 8 April 2022 (UTC) 848:02:25, 8 April 2022 (UTC) 829:14:00, 7 April 2022 (UTC) 801:12:25, 7 April 2022 (UTC) 316:of farmers being killed. 283:01:02, 16 July 2021 (UTC) 4049:23:13, 3 June 2022 (UTC) 1929:Please do not modify it. 1326:Please do not modify it. 570:exponentially greater. 532:is an accurate summary. 310: 124:10:43, 2 June 2020 (UTC) 3371:frankChungBuryThemAlive 2537:frankChungBuryThemAlive 2989: 2971: 2016: 1953: 1465:The New Zealand Herald 1062: 1048: 1386:Crime in South Africa 879:(mostly non-experts) 481:ScottishFinnishRadish 144:As the article says, 42:of past discussions. 3810:The named reference 3785:The named reference 3760:The named reference 3369:The named reference 3303:The named reference 2780:The named reference 2758:The named reference 2535:The named reference 2487:The named reference 2142:The named reference 3547:The Washington Post 2667:The Washington Post 719:1804 Haiti massacre 572:The Washington Post 3405:The New York Times 3305:foreignPolicyTacit 2939:white nationalists 2928:white nationalists 2565:The New York Times 2489:foreignPolicyTacit 2043:white nationalists 1622:The New York Times 1527:The article title 1497: 363:Conspiracy theory? 4015: 4003:comment added by 3633:. 3 November 2017 3586:The South African 3333:. 29 January 2019 3266:The South African 3004: 3003: 2514:. 29 January 2019 2465:The South African 2258:. 3 November 2017 2100:The South African 2054: 2053: 1493: 1356: 1349: 1346:non-admin closure 1083:different section 944:from places like 862:Islamic terrorism 858:Islamic terrorism 854:Islamic terrorism 515:The South African 449: 448: 90: 89: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4058: 3966:User:Wes_sideman 3952: 3951: 3949: 3947: 3933: 3927: 3922: 3916: 3911: 3905: 3904: 3902: 3901: 3891: 3885: 3879: 3873: 3872: 3860: 3854: 3853: 3851: 3849: 3832: 3821: 3820: 3819: 3813: 3805: 3796: 3795: 3794: 3788: 3780: 3771: 3770: 3769: 3763: 3755: 3740: 3739: 3737: 3735: 3721: 3712: 3711: 3709: 3707: 3702:. 23 August 2018 3692: 3683: 3682: 3681: 3680: 3670: 3668: 3666: 3652: 3643: 3642: 3640: 3638: 3623: 3610: 3609: 3608: 3607: 3597: 3595: 3593: 3578: 3563: 3562: 3561: 3560: 3550: 3539: 3526: 3525: 3524: 3523: 3513: 3511: 3509: 3494: 3485: 3484: 3482: 3480: 3466: 3457: 3456: 3455: 3454: 3444: 3442: 3440: 3426: 3417: 3416: 3414: 3412: 3407:. 23 August 2018 3397: 3380: 3379: 3378: 3372: 3364: 3355: 3354: 3353: 3352: 3342: 3340: 3338: 3323: 3314: 3313: 3312: 3306: 3298: 3289: 3288: 3287: 3286: 3276: 3274: 3272: 3257: 3248: 3247: 3246: 3245: 3235: 3233: 3231: 3216: 3207: 3206: 3205: 3204: 3194: 3192: 3190: 3175: 3166: 3165: 3164: 3163: 3153: 3151: 3149: 3134: 3125: 3124: 3123: 3122: 3112: 3110: 3108: 3093: 3084: 3083: 3081: 3079: 3062: 3040: 3034: 3028: 3022: 2889: 2872: 2791: 2790: 2789: 2783: 2775: 2769: 2768: 2767: 2761: 2753: 2747: 2746: 2744: 2742: 2728: 2722: 2721: 2719: 2717: 2712:. 23 August 2018 2702: 2696: 2695: 2693: 2691: 2677: 2671: 2670: 2659: 2650: 2649: 2647: 2645: 2630: 2624: 2623: 2621: 2619: 2605: 2599: 2598: 2596: 2594: 2583: 2577: 2576: 2574: 2572: 2567:. 23 August 2018 2557: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2538: 2530: 2524: 2523: 2521: 2519: 2504: 2498: 2497: 2496: 2490: 2482: 2476: 2475: 2473: 2471: 2456: 2450: 2449: 2447: 2445: 2430: 2424: 2423: 2421: 2419: 2404: 2398: 2397: 2395: 2393: 2378: 2372: 2371: 2369: 2367: 2352: 2346: 2345: 2343: 2341: 2324: 2315: 2314: 2312: 2310: 2296: 2290: 2285: 2279: 2274: 2268: 2267: 2265: 2263: 2248: 2237: 2236: 2234: 2233: 2223: 2217: 2211: 2205: 2204: 2192: 2186: 2185: 2183: 2181: 2164: 2153: 2152: 2151: 2145: 2137: 2124: 2123: 2122: 2121: 2111: 2109: 2107: 2092: 2068: 1998: 1989: 1918: 1913: 1908: 1873: 1854: 1818: 1670:does imply that 1362: 1354: 1350: 1343: 1328: 1244: 1243: 1242: 1221:strongly support 1205:Just my $ 0.02. 933:I agree with you 759: 479:if appropriate. 471: 470: 440: 436: 422: 421: 415: 294: 253:A Thousand Words 243:Bearing in mind 231:A Thousand Words 176:A Thousand Words 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4066: 4065: 4061: 4060: 4059: 4057: 4056: 4055: 3994: 3957: 3956: 3955: 3945: 3943: 3935: 3934: 3930: 3923: 3919: 3912: 3908: 3899: 3897: 3893: 3892: 3888: 3882:The Independent 3880: 3876: 3869:The Independent 3862: 3861: 3857: 3847: 3845: 3834: 3833: 3824: 3811: 3809: 3807: 3799: 3786: 3784: 3782: 3774: 3761: 3759: 3757: 3743: 3733: 3731: 3723: 3722: 3715: 3705: 3703: 3694: 3693: 3686: 3674: 3672: 3664: 3662: 3660:Washington Post 3654: 3653: 3646: 3636: 3634: 3625: 3624: 3613: 3601: 3599: 3591: 3589: 3588:. 25 April 2019 3580: 3579: 3566: 3554: 3552: 3541: 3540: 3529: 3517: 3515: 3507: 3505: 3496: 3495: 3488: 3478: 3476: 3468: 3467: 3460: 3448: 3446: 3438: 3436: 3428: 3427: 3420: 3410: 3408: 3399: 3398: 3383: 3370: 3368: 3366: 3358: 3346: 3344: 3336: 3334: 3325: 3324: 3317: 3304: 3302: 3300: 3292: 3280: 3278: 3270: 3268: 3259: 3258: 3251: 3239: 3237: 3229: 3227: 3218: 3217: 3210: 3198: 3196: 3188: 3186: 3177: 3176: 3169: 3157: 3155: 3147: 3145: 3136: 3135: 3128: 3116: 3114: 3106: 3104: 3095: 3094: 3087: 3077: 3075: 3064: 3063: 3054: 3045: 3044: 3043: 3037: 3031: 3025: 3019: 2864: 2821:buries the lead 2796: 2795: 2794: 2781: 2779: 2777: 2772: 2759: 2757: 2755: 2750: 2740: 2738: 2730: 2729: 2725: 2715: 2713: 2704: 2703: 2699: 2689: 2687: 2685:Washington Post 2679: 2678: 2674: 2661: 2660: 2653: 2643: 2641: 2632: 2631: 2627: 2617: 2615: 2607: 2606: 2602: 2592: 2590: 2585: 2584: 2580: 2570: 2568: 2559: 2558: 2549: 2536: 2534: 2532: 2527: 2517: 2515: 2506: 2505: 2501: 2488: 2486: 2484: 2479: 2469: 2467: 2458: 2457: 2453: 2443: 2441: 2432: 2431: 2427: 2417: 2415: 2406: 2405: 2401: 2391: 2389: 2380: 2379: 2375: 2365: 2363: 2354: 2353: 2349: 2339: 2337: 2326: 2325: 2318: 2308: 2306: 2298: 2297: 2293: 2286: 2282: 2275: 2271: 2261: 2259: 2250: 2249: 2240: 2231: 2229: 2225: 2224: 2220: 2214:The Independent 2212: 2208: 2201:The Independent 2194: 2193: 2189: 2179: 2177: 2166: 2165: 2156: 2143: 2141: 2139: 2127: 2115: 2113: 2105: 2103: 2102:. 25 April 2019 2094: 2093: 2082: 2073: 2072: 2071: 2065: 1981: 1938: 1933: 1932: 1916: 1911: 1906: 1865: 1846: 1810: 1626:Pulitzer Center 1358: 1355: 1352: 1324: 1314: 1262:strongly oppose 1240: 1021: 788: 753: 497: 477:reliable source 468: 438: 434: 419: 413: 365: 313: 291:FreyaGoddess777 288: 275:FreyaGoddess777 95: 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4064: 4062: 4054: 4053: 4052: 4051: 4033: 4032: 3993: 3990: 3989: 3988: 3987: 3986: 3985: 3984: 3954: 3953: 3928: 3917: 3906: 3886: 3874: 3855: 3822: 3797: 3772: 3741: 3713: 3684: 3644: 3611: 3564: 3549:. 15 May 2019. 3527: 3486: 3458: 3418: 3381: 3356: 3315: 3290: 3249: 3208: 3167: 3126: 3085: 3051: 3050: 3046: 3042: 3041: 3035: 3029: 3023: 3016: 3015: 3011: 3010: 3009: 3008: 3007: 3006: 3005: 3002: 3001: 2979: 2959: 2958: 2951: 2943: 2942: 2931: 2919: 2918: 2910: 2901: 2900: 2895: 2881: 2880: 2879: 2878: 2877: 2876: 2837: 2836: 2816: 2815: 2814: 2793: 2792: 2770: 2748: 2723: 2697: 2672: 2651: 2625: 2600: 2578: 2547: 2525: 2499: 2477: 2451: 2425: 2399: 2373: 2347: 2316: 2291: 2280: 2269: 2238: 2218: 2206: 2187: 2154: 2125: 2079: 2078: 2074: 2070: 2069: 2062: 2061: 2057: 2056: 2055: 2052: 2051: 2005: 2004: 1994: 1993: 1937: 1934: 1926: 1925: 1924: 1898: 1881: 1880: 1879: 1878: 1877: 1858: 1842: 1795: 1774: 1773: 1772: 1771: 1770: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1713:Desertambition 1709: 1690: 1661: 1644: 1630:Mike Cernovich 1615: 1614: 1613: 1603:Desertambition 1581: 1580: 1579: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1575: 1480:Desertambition 1372: 1370: 1351: 1336: 1335: 1321:requested move 1315: 1313: 1310: 1309: 1308: 1307: 1306: 1305: 1304: 1303: 1302: 1301: 1300: 1299: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1294: 1293: 1292: 1267:Desertambition 1258: 1257: 1256: 1203: 1177: 1020: 1017: 986: 985: 984: 983: 982: 981: 980: 979: 978: 977: 976: 975: 914: 884: 850: 812: 787: 784: 783: 782: 781: 780: 779: 778: 777: 776: 775: 774: 773: 772: 694: 693: 688: 683: 678: 673: 614: 613: 612: 611: 525: 524: 518: 512: 496: 495:"Occasionally" 493: 492: 491: 447: 446: 423: 412: 409: 408: 407: 364: 361: 360: 359: 358: 357: 312: 309: 308: 307: 270: 269: 268: 267: 266: 265: 264: 263: 241: 223: 222: 203:WP:EXCEPTIONAL 187: 186: 165: 164: 142: 127: 126: 94: 91: 88: 87: 82: 75: 70: 65: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4063: 4050: 4046: 4042: 4037: 4036: 4035: 4034: 4031: 4027: 4023: 4018: 4017: 4016: 4014: 4010: 4006: 4005:24.198.97.148 4002: 3991: 3983: 3979: 3975: 3971: 3967: 3963: 3962: 3961: 3960: 3959: 3958: 3942: 3938: 3932: 3929: 3926: 3921: 3918: 3915: 3910: 3907: 3896: 3890: 3887: 3883: 3878: 3875: 3870: 3866: 3859: 3856: 3844: 3843: 3838: 3831: 3829: 3827: 3823: 3817: 3804: 3802: 3798: 3792: 3779: 3777: 3773: 3767: 3754: 3752: 3750: 3748: 3746: 3742: 3730: 3726: 3720: 3718: 3714: 3701: 3697: 3691: 3689: 3685: 3678: 3661: 3657: 3651: 3649: 3645: 3632: 3628: 3622: 3620: 3618: 3616: 3612: 3605: 3587: 3583: 3577: 3575: 3573: 3571: 3569: 3565: 3558: 3548: 3544: 3538: 3536: 3534: 3532: 3528: 3521: 3504: 3500: 3493: 3491: 3487: 3475: 3471: 3465: 3463: 3459: 3452: 3435: 3431: 3425: 3423: 3419: 3406: 3402: 3396: 3394: 3392: 3390: 3388: 3386: 3382: 3376: 3363: 3361: 3357: 3350: 3332: 3328: 3322: 3320: 3316: 3310: 3297: 3295: 3291: 3284: 3267: 3263: 3256: 3254: 3250: 3243: 3226: 3222: 3215: 3213: 3209: 3202: 3185: 3184:farmersweekly 3181: 3174: 3172: 3168: 3161: 3144: 3140: 3133: 3131: 3127: 3120: 3103: 3099: 3092: 3090: 3086: 3074: 3073: 3068: 3061: 3059: 3057: 3053: 3049: 3039: 3036: 3033: 3030: 3027: 3024: 3021: 3018: 3014: 2999: 2995: 2991: 2990:plaasaanvalle 2987: 2983: 2980: 2977: 2976:South African 2973: 2972:plaasaanvalle 2969: 2965: 2961: 2956: 2952: 2949: 2945: 2940: 2936: 2932: 2929: 2925: 2921: 2916: 2911: 2908: 2903: 2899: 2896: 2894: 2891: 2887: 2886: 2885: 2884: 2883: 2882: 2875: 2871: 2868: 2862: 2861: 2860: 2859: 2858: 2857: 2856: 2855: 2851: 2847: 2843: 2835: 2831: 2827: 2822: 2817: 2813: 2809: 2805: 2800: 2799: 2798: 2797: 2787: 2774: 2771: 2765: 2752: 2749: 2737: 2733: 2727: 2724: 2711: 2707: 2701: 2698: 2686: 2682: 2676: 2673: 2668: 2664: 2658: 2656: 2652: 2640: 2636: 2629: 2626: 2614: 2610: 2604: 2601: 2588: 2582: 2579: 2566: 2562: 2556: 2554: 2552: 2548: 2542: 2529: 2526: 2513: 2509: 2503: 2500: 2494: 2481: 2478: 2466: 2462: 2455: 2452: 2440: 2436: 2429: 2426: 2414: 2413:farmersweekly 2410: 2403: 2400: 2388: 2384: 2377: 2374: 2362: 2358: 2351: 2348: 2336: 2335: 2330: 2323: 2321: 2317: 2305: 2301: 2295: 2292: 2289: 2284: 2281: 2278: 2273: 2270: 2257: 2253: 2247: 2245: 2243: 2239: 2228: 2222: 2219: 2215: 2210: 2207: 2202: 2198: 2191: 2188: 2176: 2175: 2170: 2163: 2161: 2159: 2155: 2149: 2136: 2134: 2132: 2130: 2126: 2119: 2101: 2097: 2091: 2089: 2087: 2085: 2081: 2077: 2067: 2064: 2060: 2050: 2048: 2044: 2040: 2035: 2033: 2026: 2022: 2018: 2017:plaasaanvalle 2014: 2010: 2007: 2003: 2000: 1996: 1995: 1992: 1988: 1985: 1979: 1978: 1977: 1976: 1972: 1968: 1962: 1961: 1959: 1958:South African 1955: 1954:plaasaanvalle 1951: 1947: 1941: 1935: 1930: 1923: 1920: 1919: 1914: 1909: 1902: 1899: 1897: 1893: 1889: 1885: 1882: 1876: 1872: 1869: 1863: 1859: 1857: 1853: 1850: 1843: 1840: 1837: 1836: 1835: 1831: 1827: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1817: 1814: 1808: 1803: 1799: 1798:Strong oppose 1796: 1794: 1790: 1786: 1782: 1778: 1775: 1765: 1761: 1757: 1753: 1752: 1751: 1747: 1743: 1738: 1737: 1736: 1732: 1728: 1724: 1723: 1722: 1718: 1714: 1710: 1707: 1706:South African 1703: 1702:plaasaanvalle 1699: 1695: 1691: 1688: 1687: 1686: 1682: 1678: 1673: 1669: 1665: 1662: 1660: 1656: 1652: 1648: 1645: 1643: 1639: 1635: 1631: 1627: 1623: 1619: 1616: 1612: 1608: 1604: 1599: 1598: 1597: 1593: 1589: 1585: 1582: 1574: 1570: 1566: 1561: 1560: 1559: 1555: 1551: 1547: 1544: 1543: 1542: 1538: 1534: 1530: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1520: 1516: 1512: 1508: 1504: 1500: 1499:Strong Oppose 1496: 1492: 1491: 1490: 1489: 1485: 1481: 1478: 1473: 1472: 1467: 1466: 1462: 1458: 1457: 1453: 1452: 1448: 1444: 1443: 1439: 1438: 1433: 1432: 1428: 1424: 1423: 1418: 1417: 1413: 1409: 1408: 1403: 1402: 1398: 1397: 1393: 1389: 1387: 1383: 1379: 1375: 1369: 1368: 1365: 1363: 1361: 1347: 1341: 1334: 1332: 1327: 1322: 1317: 1316: 1311: 1291: 1287: 1283: 1278: 1277: 1276: 1272: 1268: 1263: 1259: 1255: 1251: 1247: 1236: 1235: 1234: 1230: 1226: 1222: 1218: 1217: 1216: 1212: 1208: 1204: 1202: 1199: 1195: 1191: 1187: 1186:plaasaanvalle 1183: 1178: 1175: 1171: 1170: 1169: 1165: 1161: 1156: 1155: 1153: 1150: 1146: 1142: 1138: 1137:Third opinion 1133: 1128: 1127: 1126: 1122: 1118: 1113: 1112: 1110: 1107: 1103: 1098: 1097: 1096: 1092: 1088: 1084: 1080: 1079: 1077: 1074: 1070: 1066: 1064: 1063:plaasaanvalle 1060: 1056: 1050: 1049:plaasaanvalle 1046: 1042: 1038: 1037: 1036: 1035: 1031: 1027: 1018: 1016: 1015: 1011: 1007: 1001: 1000: 996: 992: 974: 970: 966: 961: 960: 959: 955: 951: 947: 943: 939: 934: 930: 929: 928: 924: 920: 915: 913: 909: 905: 900: 899: 898: 894: 890: 885: 882: 877: 876: 875: 871: 867: 863: 859: 855: 851: 849: 845: 841: 837: 832: 831: 830: 826: 822: 817: 813: 810: 805: 804: 803: 802: 798: 794: 785: 771: 767: 763: 757: 752: 751: 750: 746: 742: 738: 734: 733: 732: 728: 724: 720: 715: 714: 713: 709: 705: 701: 696: 695: 692: 689: 687: 684: 682: 679: 677: 674: 672: 669: 668: 665: 664: 663: 659: 655: 651: 650:synth our way 647: 643: 639: 635: 631: 630: 629: 628: 624: 620: 610: 606: 602: 598: 594: 590: 585: 581: 577: 573: 569: 565: 564: 563: 559: 555: 551: 546: 545: 544: 543: 539: 535: 531: 522: 519: 516: 513: 509: 506: 505: 504: 502: 494: 490: 486: 482: 478: 474: 466: 465: 464: 463: 459: 455: 444: 441:parameter to 432: 428: 424: 417: 416: 410: 406: 402: 398: 393: 392: 391: 390: 386: 382: 378: 374: 370: 362: 356: 352: 348: 344: 343: 342: 338: 334: 330: 329: 328: 327: 323: 319: 318:102.250.3.184 306: 302: 298: 292: 287: 286: 285: 284: 280: 276: 262: 258: 254: 250: 246: 245:WP:OTHERSTUFF 242: 240: 236: 232: 227: 226: 225: 224: 221: 217: 213: 208: 204: 199: 195: 191: 190: 189: 188: 185: 181: 177: 173: 169: 168: 167: 166: 163: 159: 155: 151: 147: 143: 141: 137: 133: 129: 128: 125: 121: 117: 112: 111: 110: 109: 105: 101: 92: 86: 83: 80: 76: 74: 71: 69: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 4041:Ni'jluuseger 4022:Ni'jluuseger 3999:— Preceding 3995: 3946:15 September 3944:. Retrieved 3941:Africa Check 3940: 3931: 3920: 3909: 3898:. Retrieved 3889: 3877: 3868: 3858: 3846:. Retrieved 3840: 3808:Cite error: 3783:Cite error: 3758:Cite error: 3732:. Retrieved 3728: 3704:. Retrieved 3699: 3673:Cite error: 3665:15 September 3663:. Retrieved 3659: 3635:. Retrieved 3630: 3600:Cite error: 3590:. Retrieved 3585: 3553:Cite error: 3546: 3516:Cite error: 3506:. Retrieved 3503:the Guardian 3502: 3477:. Retrieved 3473: 3447:Cite error: 3437:. Retrieved 3433: 3409:. Retrieved 3404: 3367:Cite error: 3345:Cite error: 3335:. Retrieved 3330: 3301:Cite error: 3279:Cite error: 3269:. Retrieved 3265: 3238:Cite error: 3228:. Retrieved 3224: 3197:Cite error: 3187:. Retrieved 3183: 3156:Cite error: 3146:. Retrieved 3142: 3115:Cite error: 3105:. Retrieved 3101: 3076:. Retrieved 3070: 3047: 3038: 3032: 3026: 3020: 3012: 2994:South Africa 2981: 2963: 2838: 2778:Cite error: 2773: 2756:Cite error: 2751: 2739:. Retrieved 2735: 2726: 2714:. Retrieved 2709: 2700: 2690:15 September 2688:. Retrieved 2684: 2675: 2666: 2642:. Retrieved 2639:the Guardian 2638: 2628: 2616:. Retrieved 2612: 2603: 2591:. Retrieved 2581: 2569:. Retrieved 2564: 2533:Cite error: 2528: 2516:. Retrieved 2511: 2502: 2485:Cite error: 2480: 2468:. Retrieved 2464: 2454: 2442:. Retrieved 2438: 2428: 2416:. Retrieved 2412: 2402: 2390:. Retrieved 2386: 2376: 2364:. Retrieved 2360: 2350: 2338:. Retrieved 2332: 2309:15 September 2307:. Retrieved 2304:Africa Check 2303: 2294: 2283: 2272: 2260:. Retrieved 2255: 2230:. Retrieved 2221: 2209: 2200: 2190: 2178:. Retrieved 2172: 2140:Cite error: 2114:Cite error: 2104:. 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CBS News 2518:30 January 2232:2019-09-03 2076:References 2059:References 1888:Rreagan007 1692:"The term 1511:WP:POVFORK 1219:Thanks, I 931:Ornilnas, 550:WP:BALANCE 501:just added 435:|answered= 381:Equine-man 333:Equine-man 297:MarshallKe 3848:20 August 3816:help page 3791:help page 3766:help page 3734:27 August 3706:27 August 3677:help page 3604:help page 3557:help page 3520:help page 3508:27 August 3479:27 August 3451:help page 3439:27 August 3411:27 August 3375:help page 3349:help page 3309:help page 3283:help page 3271:20 August 3242:help page 3230:20 August 3201:help page 3160:help page 3119:help page 3078:20 August 2986:Afrikaans 2968:Afrikaans 2962:The term 2786:help page 2764:help page 2741:27 August 2716:27 August 2644:27 August 2618:27 August 2593:27 August 2571:27 August 2541:help page 2493:help page 2470:20 August 2444:20 August 2340:20 August 2180:20 August 2148:help page 2118:help page 2013:Afrikaans 1950:Afrikaans 1944:The term 1698:Afrikaans 1601:reality. 1340:Not Moved 1198:disbunked 1190:AfriForum 1059:Afrikaans 1045:Afrikaans 946:AfriForum 702:one bit. 700:WP:WEIGHT 473:Not done: 345:Sources? 212:Aquillion 207:WP:FRINGE 198:available 194:available 154:Aquillion 132:Gabbobler 100:Jgriffy98 85:Archive 6 79:Archive 5 73:Archive 4 68:Archive 3 60:Archive 1 4001:unsigned 3974:Ornilnas 3700:BBC News 3631:BBC News 3592:27 April 3434:CBS News 2826:Woodroar 2804:Ornilnas 2710:BBC News 2256:BBC News 2106:27 April 1967:Ornilnas 1826:Ornilnas 1756:Ornilnas 1727:Ornilnas 1677:Ornilnas 1634:Woodroar 1588:Greenman 1546:WP:OTHER 1507:WP:NDESC 1353:signed, 1282:Ornilnas 1246:Woodroar 1225:Ornilnas 1207:Woodroar 1160:Ornilnas 1145:Bishonen 1132:Woodroar 1117:Ornilnas 1102:Bishonen 1087:Ornilnas 1069:Bishonen 1026:Ornilnas 1006:Ornilnas 991:Ornilnas 965:Ornilnas 950:Woodroar 919:Ornilnas 904:Ornilnas 889:Woodroar 866:Ornilnas 840:Ornilnas 821:Woodroar 793:Ornilnas 756:JGabbard 741:Woodroar 723:JGabbard 704:Woodroar 654:Woodroar 619:JGabbard 601:Woodroar 580:reported 554:JGabbard 534:Woodroar 521:CapeTalk 397:Woodroar 347:Woodroar 150:disprove 116:BHistory 3787:reuters 3474:AP News 3189:11 July 3143:biznews 2760:reuters 2669:. 2019. 2613:AP News 2418:11 July 2387:biznews 1777:Comment 1664:Comment 644:. 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