Talk:South West England

3144:

kicking, and has nought to do with English identity (as important and interesting as that is). First of all in literature to relating to Cornwall's history (Stoyle 'West Britons', Caraman 'Western Rising', Rowse 'Tudor Cornwall' amongst the most well known, and these are just the ones 'off the bat'), and contemporary identity in Cornwall For Ever/Kernow Bys Vyken, which was funded by the Duchy of Cornwall and given to all school children a few years back, the University of Exeter's previous and extensive series of 'Cornish Studies' journals, which has dozens of research papers and surveys on attitudes. If you really want a deep-dive, may I suggest you have a look through academic.edu for pre-print academic papers and also researchgate.net, for the latest works. I could go on (and on). If you *seriously* want me to write up a summary of this, I will, but given the recent history of bulk reversions, I would need a binding committment that any time spent would not be wasted. Best wishes,

3140:

evidence, and you probobaly know this stuff as well as I do: There are plenty of pro-devolution, pro-Cornish cultural organisations that simply don't even mention SW England or where they do it's on the basis of Cornwall not being a meaningful part of it. Some groupings are oriented towards pan-Celticism, inter-Celtic relations, the Atlantic Arc, or are focused on Cornwall's de factor perihperal status or perceived lack of power. Some of the main forums are Cornwalllive, Cornwall24, or any of the 30 or so Facebook pages related to these topics. There are also the various cultural non-English bodies such as Gorseth Kernow, the various Cornish language groups, Celtic Congress, National Music Archive of Cornwall, etc. Closer to home, there's the wiki page on Cornish Nationalism, of course, and Knowledge's own Cornish language pages.

3106:

commonalities between Cornwall and SW England: of course there are, and it would be absurd to assert otherwise. It's the counter-point that's more interesting in a Knowledge article: there are also strong non-commonalities, a point you yourself so stridently make. A non-Anglo Saxon tradition, Celtic language and a very peripheral world-view being the most obvious. It doesn't detract from either Cornish or English cultural perspectivies to admit, equably, both differences and commonalities. Ignoring differences is as absurb as ingnoring commonalities, surely? It's certainly more interesting and illuminating as far as a Knowledge page is concerned. Canadians have significant similarities with Americans, and English and Irish do too, but surely it's the differences that we want to compare and contrast?

2799:

to resume name calling, but my views on Cornwall are mainstream here in Cornwall, whatever you may think or assert. I'm truly sorry you don'tlike the terms Duchy or nation, or that Cornwall had kings, or that the flag is a national, not county, flag used on the field of battle in Tudor times, and that Cornwall has its own system of Arms, or that the Cornish are a recognised national minority, or that the language is protected under treaty, or any of the other things that upset you about Cornwall. May I respectfully suggest that deleting them from Knowledge and reverting text simply because you personally don't like them, is not the way forward. I have offered talk page dialogue on contentious issues with you before, but so far you have not taken me up on it - I would be delighted if you did.

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terms and doesn't say what the relationship is between them. Earlier, I proposed disambiguating these for clarity, since it helps the reader: Southwest Region, Southwest Peninsula, West of England, Far West, Wessex, etc. It would seem to me reasonable to make these tweaks, so I'm still surprised at the strident resistance, which, as I last commented, seems to be more grounded in a desire to keep things 'locked down' rather than keep chipping away at improving the page. Happy to talk, as always, happy to propose changes as long as they are not gratuitously dumped overboard. Best wishes,

3136:

that at all and I don't recognise any widespread antagonism or antipathy. I think you maybe leaping ahead somewhat. I don't believe Cornish people dislike SW England, simply: they're too busy getting on with their lives. But if the question does come up, many would say 'I'm Cornish', or maybe 'Cornish and British', rather than 'English' (several academic surveys on this exist). Of course there are also English people in Cornwall, and Cornish people who consider themselves English, but that's another question, and not what I believe you're referring to.

3027:. May I go further and suggest that a new all-England article on Regional Government is created -- English Regional structures are certainly important enough in their own right to warrant such a page. This could include material from all the relevant regions. So far as retaining material on changes in governance is concerned -- where does one stop? If every time there's another change in government institutions and this is retained, the article will simply become too cumbersome to navigate or read. I'd argue we have already passed that tipping point. 1942:

this page 'as is' insist on it being frozen as was in 2011 is because (a) they believe it retains some administrative legitimacy (in which case, by al means make the case), (b) they are attempting to promote it as either a cultural or administrative entity out of preference (again, please make the case), or (c) they just cannot bear any of their edits to be revised? Reverting proposed changes without supplying a rationale just further makes the case that this page needs a complete re-write.

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Southwest being an 'official region', particularly in gov.uk sources that could then be cited, and although I have spent some time looking, I can't find any. The ONS gathers Southwest stats, and that's about it. There is, however, a great deal about the LEPs and Enterprise Zones, and as I said, it would make sense to have these represented on the page. I don't remember what I proposed, but somewhere or other I have something written up with full citations and the relevant background.

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be Devon, Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire but excluding Cornwall and Glos), plenty has also been written about Cornwall being a separate region or quasi-region, and Devon has been taken as big enough to be considered on its own. The issue of Bournemouth and Poole has also been in and out of the press about its potential transfer to the Southeastern GO region in the past.

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constitutional basis for the seven-county region. What there definitely is however is the ex-Civil Defence region, that subsequently became the basis for both the Government Office (GO) area and also for the South West regional development agency (both of which are now defunct). It is also true that national statistics have been complied using the seven-county region.

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statistical region, justifies the existence of the article. Secondly, the "South West Peninsula" and "South West England" are not synonymous - areas like Gloucester, Swindon, and Bournemouth are not part of the peninsula, but are (or were) part of the region. Thirdly, there certainly should be a map in the article on

1873: 2838:(including accent, products, climate, "identity", media etc) is needed and that something about industry/GDP etc should be included. On the wider national basis I would suggest the creation of a guideline for "regions" be developed in a similar way to those for settlements, counties, districts etc at 3143:

If you want reliable sources to talk about the cultural differences between 'Cornish-Cornwall', and 'English-Southwest England', there's simply a vast body of literature (and I really do mean vast, no hyperbolae), that indicate that a completely separate, non-English identity exists, and is alive and

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Firstly, the fact that the government states that the region has been "abolished" is no reason for not having an article on it - we have plenty of articles on regions of historic importance, and the fact that the SW was at one time a UK government administrative region, and for a much longer period a

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Personally I support the changes that were made and think that they shouldn't have been reverted. However, I think we should be looking to get consensus on how all the English region pages should be modified to ensure consistency. Pick a wikiproject, e.g. UK politics, or England, from the list above.

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I note that no one has responded to my appeal for a positive discussion, yet a full, and egregious reversion has been upheld without justification. Very disappointing and indicative of a lack of interest in improving this (now pretty flaky) page. I'm still unclear as to whether proponents of keeping

1908:

Then we have the difficulty of government institutions including the previous TECs, LSCs and NEDCs. There are also the EU-based programme areas from Objective 1 downwards, NUTS-regions and so on. Even in the 1960s and afterwards the shadowy 'South' region that included Dorset, Wilts, Oxfordshire and

1904:

However, there are also competing terms: West Country (which can mean anything from Cornwall and Devon, Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and Dorset, or even Bristol, Glos, Somerset and Wiltshore depending on who you ask!), 'The West', 'Mid West', Far South-West, Devon-and-Cornwall, Wessex (usually taken to

3139:

The point is that Cornish people (who identify as Cornish), are interested in Cornish things, in addition to the normal humdrum of life. It's not that they are antagonistic to SW England, English people, English culture, or whatever, they just don't identiify with it in the same way. You asked for

3058:

The idea that there is no cultural continuity in SW England that also includes Cornwall (to a more limited degree than Devon+) is silly. You take someone from a foreign country, have them live in Devon for a time and then have them live in Cornwall for a time. Are they going to notice a substantial

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I think any article on the area of "South West England" needs to take into account both official (governement regional offices etc) and common usage - my belief is that whatever the official status "South West England" means something to many people and is likely to be a term they might look for in

2798:

This is not the place to make personal comments (again). I do not agree with your politics, which I find inappropriate, but I choose not discuss them on the talk pages of a topic, since they are not relevant to that page. I don't know whether you are deliberately trying to be provocative, or intend

2746:

Circular argument - Going on to talk about the 'region' in terms beyond the statistical is disingenuous and uses a circular argument to justify its further use in other circumstances. Personally, I'd remove non-statistical elements from this page and signpost to the page on the South West Peninsula

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Content: There is a great deal of (fairly broad) content on the page. Perhaps I'm being a little too critical, but the para on cream teas, the Eden Project and Enid Blyton seems a little..... eclectic? If it's needed still, would it be better too pull together all the literary-related material into

2738:

Missing Information - This article omits important information about the abolition of the SW Region for administrative purposes (the SWRA and SWRDA), and in doing so introduces a POV issue relating to the use of the term 'region' for political purposes. This may be avoided by adding an appropriate

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Okay, you have claimed that the region exists for official purposes (I provided direct evidence of the dissolution both SWRDA and the SWRA - did you not read this?) If you have contrary evidence then by all means provide it so we can make a joint decision. Otherwise you risk introducing POV edits.

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This Wiki is particularly poor when it comes to defining its terms. If it relates to the Civil Defence Region called the 'South West' then it should say so. I have heard it asserted that there is an 'official' South West region, yet I can find absolutely no evidence for this. There is certainly no

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As part of the transport planning system the Regional Assembly is under statutory requirement to produce a Regional Transport Strategy to provide long term planning for transport in the region. This involves region wide transport schemes such as those carried out by the Highways Agency and Network

3135:

Hello Ghmyrtle: You said "More pertinently, if you can find reliable, independent sources that discuss the antagonism some people in Cornwall are claimed to have, in regard to being included in "South West England", it may well be possible to include a mention in this article." Hm. I didn't claim

2593:

Geography/History: I think I said this before, but I can't help wondering if these would be better kept on the relevant pages on Dartmoor, Exmoor, Blackmore Vale, Somerset Levels etc. and simply linked to. There seems to be quite a bit of duplication here. The same is true of the History section,

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I thought the whole point of Knowledge was to provide cited and properly defined sources, and this is what principally let's the page down. I don't for one minute say there is no merit in having a Southwest page: There certainly is merit. The second issue the page has is that is conflates several

1565:

I am furious with the childish and nasty anti-Cornish edits in this article. Removing Cornwall's status as one of the most deprived sub-regions in the UK and the suppression of the associated primary sources is playing blatant and malicious politics with socio-economic data. You know who you are.

2044:

This is an interesting graphic - however I do wonder about the selection of comparators ie West Midlands & London for Median Age while North West is used for Life Expectancy & North East for unemployment. I also wonder if it complies with policies (vaguely remembered) about not including

3120:

I'm not sure whose comment you're responding to, but in my (flippant, small font) comment the word "they" clearly refers to people in Devon, not Cornwall. More pertinently, if you can find reliable, independent sources that discuss the antagonism some people in Cornwall are claimed to have, in

2697:

As this page appears to be subject to dispute and changes will simply be reverted, I have added tags to show where the critical problems lie. A solution needs to be found though, and it would seem to me sensible to merge this page with that of the South West Penisula, rather than to continue a

1975:

Hi Ghmyrtle, good to hear you and I hope your day is going well. I understand work you've put into this page in the past, and that's grand, and very much appreciated. I'm not really understanding your point: what sources are you asking me to find? I have looked for evidence and links as to the

3105:

They? Interesting way of putting it. You call the Cornish 'they', meaning 'not us'. I think you've made a point far more strongly than any point I was making (which was merely that it's worth commenting evenly and as objective as possible). My point was not that there are not similarities and

2940:

and in particular the lead section. There's a disruptive IP editor pushing his own POV on what should be in there. I'm probably already guilty of 3RR there and t.b.h. some fresh pairs of eyes and fingers on keyboards would really help expand the lead into something more befitting the article.

2582:

I thought the last government had formally abolished the regions. SWRDA has gone, the Government Office for the SW is now just a ministerial liaison unit and has devolved role. All the Southwest Councils have gone and they are now replaced by LEPS etc. or functions pulled back into government

2837:

etc) an article on the area/region of the southwest is needed. Having said that it is needed, I would agree that accuracy and clarity are needed, and would support the addition of "statistical purposes" or similar where appropriate. However I would suggest that history and "regional culture"

1912:

Apologies for being long-winded about this but my point is that an article on 'Southwest England' should at least discuss the usefulness and limitations of the term 'Southwest' and list some of the evidence that both legitimises its usage and otherwise. Taking the 'Southwest' as read without

2742:

Weasel words - The use of the word 'official' is problematic and will vary depend on who you talk to. If referring to the Office of National Statistics, then this should be made explicit and a citation provided. I'd be okay with saying 'for official statistical purposes by the ONS' and then

2910:

Yes, I'd endorse all Rodw's comments; the English regions each have their own history, character, cuisine, dialects, and so on, and an article on each region can rightly examine all such aspects. Adminstrative status can change rapidly, and we are not bound to describe only recent events.

1909:

Hants made an occasional showing and Gloucestershire has periodically been included with the Midlands on various bodies. The 1973 local government reorganisation was also important: it created the (disliked) county of Avon which was part of the vogue for building nucleated 'city-states'.

3162:. But, unfortunately, many of your other comments indicate that you are not approaching this from a neutral perspective, and for that reason your comments are likely to be mostly ignored here. We do need to be consistent. For example, are you equally concerned about the article on 2867:

Further to my last - since the old regions have now been abolished (that's the government's term, not mine - see Conservative Central for Eric Pickles abolition programme) - and have been replaced by the new LEP regions, we should embed the LEP map somewhere - fyi it may be found at

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entries can sometimes be a contentious topic, especially those concerning geography. You don't have to agree with everything but there is no excuse for rudeness and these things are best solved through consensus building and compromise. For more information see

1176: 3003:. All the relevant information about the administrative or statistical region should be contained in this article, though some of the information now in this article (for instance on geography, history, and the economy) could perhaps be moved into the 2149:. As with the Dragon contest, the focus is more on improving core articles and breathing new life into those older stale articles and stubs which might otherwise not get edited in years. All contributions, including new articles, are welcome though. 1722:

of the need for a better map of the region - showing some administrative boundaries, some towns, etc. As the term "West Country" cannot be satisfactorily defined, it seems to me that a map of the SW region would be preferable. Any views on this?

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Thank you for this, it sounds a sensible way to proceed, and I still think it is worth continuing on this basis. Might you be willing to make some provisional changes and see how this goes down? My last attempt resulted in a reversion without

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I have edited the Middle Ages section since it was implied by the previous version that there were natives of Devon or beyond who were British Celtic speakers in the Tudor period, the placename and documentary evidence would indicate that

2892:- but I'm not convinced it should be included in this article, which covers a far larger area. Fourthly, nothing "upsets" me about Cornwall - on the contrary, I was lucky enough to be there again yesterday. Fifthly, I agree with 1960:

We are much more likely to have a "positive discussion" if you could link to the sources that you assert provide "the evidence that both legitimises its usage and otherwise". If reliable sources exist, the article can be altered.

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It's probably all true, noteworthy (somewhere), and quite interesting - but almost entirely unsourced. Several possibilities occur to me. If sources are found, there's no reason in my view not to have a new page on

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Thank you for this, I couldn't agree more. Would you be up for raising this on the England project? I have tagged the page for the following, in the vain hope we can at least move forward in the meantime:

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sterile argument about whether a South West Region has political legitimacy, which seems to be what is argued by Chris Takey (see above). I would welcome further discussion from anyone that is interested.

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I've changed "the" regional capital to "a" regional capital, which was true in Roman times - it doesn't necessarily imply that the region of which it was capital was the same as the modern South West.

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Agreed. The Early Learning Centre (a business whose name sounds like a school) is hardly a typically southwestern trade. I'm sure they have Tesco's down there too, but saying so isn't encyclopedic.

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1. Bring up to date, reflect that the relevant institutions have gone and add the LEPs etc. 2. Thin down and remove duplicated material, replace with links. 3. Replace with a stub page. 4. Other?

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that is exactly what this article has become a - a Yellow Pages for South West England. I'll give it a couple of days and if nobody beats me to it then I'll revert and trim a few more out. --

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discussing its coherence and cohesiveness as an entity seems very strange and entirely superficial. I welcome discussion on this issue and hope it might significantly improve this article.

90: 1857:. If this is true, and can be reliably sourced then perhaps it would be a suitable addition to the article, or at least some explanation of the term. Especially given the redirect exists. 3281: 2223: 2103: 2096: 1249: 2984:), and we make it really easy for the rest of the stuff to be accessed with good cross-links. I think this would work for all English region articles in fact. Thoughts? Comments? -- 3356: 2280: 1847:

Zedland is an old term for the West Counties (Cornwall, Devon, Dorset and Somerset) in South West England. It was called this because of the inhabitants pronunciation of S as Z.

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While I think the article name should remain South West England (because that's what most people will think of it as), the emboldened part of the opening paragraph should read ‘

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These pages are not platforms for political discussion. Issues relating to Cornish politics should be restricted to those pages that directly deal with these issues (such as

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regard to being included in "South West England", it may well be possible to include a mention in this article. So far, I don't think we have found any such sources.

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This is an interesting discussion which I'm following closely. I have yet to form my own strong opinion about the way forward but I like all the contributions so far.

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Overlapping Geograpical Pages: We also have West Country, Wessex, Wiltshire, Cornwall, Devon, etc. Q: Should/could this page be a stub with links to other pages?

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lists that area as part of the EU voting constituency of South West England. Could someone who is more knowledgeable on the subjesct please clear this up for me? -

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then put it in! We value your contributions and don't be afraid if your spelling isn't great as there are plenty of spelling and grammar experts on clean-up duty!

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https://web.archive.org/web/20160531051958/http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/environment/historic_environment/slapton-line/sl-monument_rededication.htm?textsize=1

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I agree (with me). The southwest surely has deeper and more serious associations with navigation from Bristol, mining in Cornwall, agriculture and tourism.

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two National Parks, Dartmoor and Exmoor), but it should probably be mentioned somewhere in the text. I'm not sure where - does anyone have any thoughts?

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Economics: As I understand it, government policy does not look at regional indicators. Please would someone who knows more on this comment? :-)

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https://web.archive.org/web/20101024204219/http://travelplus.org.uk/our-vision/joint-local-transport-plan-3/let%27s-talk---read-the-draft-jltp3

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As I've commented before, I'm not necessarily opposed to moving - in a controlled way - some of the geographical content of this article into

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Articles on settlements in Cornwall should be written using the standard set of headings approved by the UK geography WikiProject's guideline

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The sections on each county seem very brief in some cases: just listing large employers does not really tell you much about the economy.--

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If you are going to undo edits, please signal your reasons BEFORE simply going ahead, and have the courtesy to use the talk page FIRST.

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at least several centuries earlier. If anyone is aware of any evidence for a British Celtic speaking tradition persisting east of the

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Have removed two (?) paras relating to regional culture as they don't seem appropriate when talking about an administrative structure

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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regarding the official name of the region, as I believe that it is actually "South West", not "South West England". The thread is

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The link was wrong on the Gibraltar article. It should have linked to the constituency and not the region. I've corrected this.

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All versions are correct. The current region was formed in 1994 so it came after Avon was created and before it was abolished.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20130729085614/http://www.exmoor-nationalpark.gov.uk/environment/history/the-hiistory-of-exmoor

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That's because they know that the cream is in place of butter, not some fancy grockle decoration on top. Proper job.

1766:; or, maybe better, to transfer sourced information (or tagged unsourced information) to the individual county pages. 1699:

Also, does anyone with an interest in the English Civil War want to add some information about places beyond Somerset?

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and all things Cornish. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the

1430:. . . ’ since the word England does not form part of its title. The only region of England which includes the word is 598: 559: 512: 301:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join 2351:

http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/environment/historic_environment/slapton-line/sl-monument_rededication.htm?textsize=1

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https://web.archive.org/web/20090415045417/http://www.bournemouth.gov.uk/Residents/roads/transport/LTP/default.asp

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Q1. The Southwest peninsular page does not have much on it, should the geological / geographical parts go there?

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120609171001/http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/communities/pdf/576659.pdf

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It was originally divided into just Avon, Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Gloucestershire, Somerset, and Wiltshire.

2576:

Hello all. It's been a while since I've looked properly at this page but I'm wondering if it's now needed?

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https://web.archive.org/web/20090615202319/http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/details/default.aspx?id=442194

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in Wiltshire. It would probably give it undue weight to mention this in the lead (the region only fully

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something tighter? I am prepared to have a go at this if we decide to keep the page and no one objects.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070926223213/http://www.defra.gov.uk/erdp/pdfs/esaspdfs/stage1/SOMHIST.pdf

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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redirects here, but there's nothing relating to the name on the page. Googling I see a few sites claim

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http://travelplus.org.uk/our-vision/joint-local-transport-plan-3/let%27s-talk---read-the-draft-jltp3

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until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.

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to enable the widest possible consensus and help the reader by having a consistent structure etc.—

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120118052345/http://www.sheptonmallet.info/site/index.php?page_id=189

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This section is fatuous and way too early in the article. Some of it belongs in a trivia section.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20071028164855/http://www.pillboxes-somerset.com/taunton_stop_line.htm

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Zedland was old slang for the West Country (the counties of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and Dorset).

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