Talk:South Tyrol/Archive 5 - Knowledge (XXG)

2654:"Alto Adige". You then could create a list of seven "South Tyrol" sources, which I could counter with an eight-source list for "Alto Adige", and on and on until we ran out of sources. And what do we do with the ones that use both? The only way we can "prove" that "South Tyrol" is more common is if there is a source out there that says explicitly, "South Tyrol is more common than Alto Adige in English", or something to that effect. I understand your concern about other editors, but I think there was enough evidence shown during the last move request that "South Tyrol" is more common (ngrams, Google Books, etc.), that we can leave that statement as is, and point doubters to those proofs. 2628:

common knowledge (nothing a simple Google search wouldn't be able to show). However it would be better for future sake to show sources of the use in English for both terms (that is South Tyrol and Alto Adige). I think Dohn joe that one source of the old book that shows the history of the term AA is a good start. If you want to condense the name section it would be a good idea to have a full separate article about the department. There you could add all the information and sources available concerning this part. One or two sentences summarising the article can be included in the name section with a link to the full article built into it. How does that sound as a start?

3909:“ Se. Majestät (Franz Joseph I.) sprach den bestimmten Befehl aus, daß auf die entschiedenste Art dem Einflusse des in einigen Kronländern noch vorhandenen italienischen Elementes entgegengetreten und durch geeignete Besetzung der Stellen von politischen, Gerichtsbeamten, Lehrern sowie durch den Einfluß der Presse in Südtirol, Dalmatien und dem Küstenlande auf die Germanisierung oder Slawisierung der betreffenden Landesteile je nach Umständen mit aller Energie und ohne alle Rücksicht hingearbeitet werde. Se. Majestät legt es allen Zentralstellen als strenge Pflicht auf, in diesem Sinne planmäßig vorzugehen ” 3601:

original Italian name for South Tyrol - "Sudtirolo" was banned by Mussolini in favour of the fictional "Aldo Adige". No one should be able to see anymore that this area has never really been part of Italy, but has been illegally (i.e. against the populations will) annexed after World War I. Tolomei worked on a whole catalog to replace virtually every German and Ladin geographical name in the area with an Italian one. Due to this fact, these new "names" are on the same level with communist phantasy "town names" like Stalingrad, Kaliningrad, Leningrad, Karl-Marx-Stadt or Ho Chi Minh City.

2695:

message." We have clearly not reached that stage. Tags exist to give other users also the time to discuss and participate, not to be removed unilaterally at the earliest instance within 48 hours. So I ask you to be mindful of that and leave them until an agreement has been reached. There is also an issue of the usage of "Sudtirolo", which needs to be moved from the subsection of "official use" up to the first paragraph which explains the usage of "South Tyrol". It is not a part of the official name in Italian, as opposed to the "Südtirol" in the German and Ladin one.

872:

used in English: i.e. Munich vs. München). There is no sense to this discussion, as you have not even provided any suggestion as to how you suggest we name the Ladin communes! Just saying not Ladin, but either German or Italian is fine - please state clearly what names should be used and for what reason and based on what clear rules. Then we can discuss the merits of your suggestion. As long as you just do renounce the use of Ladin names, without explaining by what rules they should be replaced this discussion is without aim and thus without sense.

1766:(italian) client is stronger than political correctness. People outside of our province instead have no problem using the term "Sudtirolo", and its use is in fact very widespread: e.g. when on holidays on the Adria, people tell to me: "Ah, del Sudtirolo sei! Che bella zona. Sono stato dalle vostre parti..." and then swarming about "Speck, Loacker, Strudel, Lederhosen, Jodel, ..." but never ever would someone say: "Ah, Alto Adige, che bella provincia...". I'm sure this is not only my perception, and others would confirm this.-- 1337:? Maybe I'm wrong, but, by using the identical arguments Gryffindor used for the naming of the province (WP:COMMONNAME) and Mai-scheme's garphs, my conclusions are completely different from theirs. No Ladin placename is broadly used in English books: Ortisei is just an example. I don't think it is useful either to cite laws because we should the acknowledge that also the current title of this article is not consistent with laws, notably with the Special Statute and the Italian Constitution! -- 3915:“His Majesty has expressed the precise order that we decisively oppose the influence of the Italian element still present in some Crown lands, and to aim unsparingly and without the slightest compunction at the Germanization or Slavicization – depending on the circumstances – of the areas in question, through a suitable entrustment of posts to political magistrates and teachers, as well as through the influence of the press in South Tyrol, Dalmatia, and the Adriatic Coast.” 980:

using Longiarù or Lungiarü, less than 50 using San Martino in Badia or St. Martin in Thurn...) and sometimes literally undecidable (How can I find good results for names like Abtei, Mareo, La Val, La Valle, La Villa...?). So I don't see the necessity of changing the current naming conventions which seemed to work out quite well so far. If somebody thinks that there is a widely accepted English name for Urtijëi, this topic should be discussed on the respective talk page. --

2494:

used as often as the previous term, and the wording of your paragraph does not make that very clear. 2) I still object that you are putting in the Alto Adige in the leading sentence, and I know that I am not alone with this concern. It is creating an artificial highlight of the name, which is all explained in the "name" section anyways. 3) Concerning your new source, that one is much clearer and can be used. Concerning the history of the term, the Italian article here

31: 824: 1181:

protection by the state and the region. The 2001 reform of the Autonomy Statute further enhanced those rights. The Provincial Law No. 7 of 2004 extended the protection, rights and explicit promotion of the minority languages to the Mocheno and Cimbrian communities. Decree Law No. 178 of 2006, Provincial Law No. 3 of 2006 and Provincial Law of 2006 further extended the protection and rights of the minorities.

2319: 1556:"Urtijëi" is a terrible and obscure choice exactly as "Santa Cristina Gherdëina", "Sëlva", "La Val", "San Martin de Tor" and "Mareo" are. All are nonsense and should be changed. To German or Italian? As these Ladin-speaking areas are surrounded by German-speaking municipalities, I would say German, but we should look first how these municipalities market themselves among non-German-speaking tourists. -- 222:(the month when the article was moved to South Tyrol) you can see that practically all its traffic was caused by redirecting and wikilinks. Well, I admit that many of those who searched for South Ty/irol might have been German-speakers, but the same could be assumed for Alto Adige and the numbers still remain impressive since South Tyrol has been a redirect for more than 3 years at these times. -- 2170: 4793:

then we have several modern publications: Disputed Territories (2003), Social Identity and Intergroup Relations (1982), Europe and Ethnicity (1996), Ethnic Conflict (2010), Mountain Environments and Communities (2001). Interestingly "South Tyrolese" pops up quite often. So I don't think this is a binary issue and it's good to reflect the sources by accepting both terms as the real world does.

3880:. Even the local native speakers of German, while speaking Italian, tend to use the Italian names of the province and its towns. I suggest rewriting the whole first paragraphs, I would do it myself, if I weren't sure somebody would revert it in a few hours with no given reason. Nothing to say about the English name, sincerely, it doesn't concern nor interest me. Greetings, -- 2189:

a footnote as far as English usage is concerned. Thus, I would reinsert an intro sentence stating that there are two commonly-used names for this province in English, which reflects the complex history of the area. Then, I'd have one paragraph explaining where "South Tyrol" comes from, and one paragraph explaining where "Alto Adige" comes from. Does that make sense?

4598:", that is to say the official name in Italian, I have to pass through a disambiguation page. I understand that "South Tyrol" is probably the most widespread name for this region in English, but the other pages showing in the Alto Adige disambiguation page are far less important. I think that "Alto Adige" should redirect here, and the other pages quoted in a 2182: 2174: 674:

should be a an indication on how to pronounce Urtijëi (all the other Ladin places are much easier to pronounce), but I disagree with you on the idea that we need to use German or Italian names for the Ladin places. We have a clear naming convention, everyone accepts this convention and there is no sense in opening this up for yet another naming discussion.

2463: 766: 2415:. As I've said before, I was not a fan of the "South Tyrol" list of sources either. Neither list proves anything except that those particular sources use whichever term(s) they choose. But if we have one list, I think we should have both lists, to show people that both terms are used in a variety of English-language sources. 771: 2178: 761: 756: 2323: 2857:

I see no reason to leave those NPOV and UNDUE tags there. The matter was expatiated enough and most editors agreed on the current version. I see no reason for controversy anymore. The discussion about the sources and titles of subsections are more of aesthetic nature. Those tags are only tempting new

2787:

The previous layout of a simple "Name" section is better than these two confusing subsections "English-language usage" and "Local and official usage". Subsections are warranted if they are long enough in text, and that is not the case. Best to revert to the previous format of having just one section.

2493:

1) Bad idea, since we need sources to show that South Tyrol is the most commonly used term in English before anything else, which we agreed upon. So how should we prove that in your opinion? There can be a list showing that Alto Adige is also used in English, but you need to make clear that it is not

2342:

My own original research largely backs that up. English usage of "Alto Adige" seems most often to appear as part of broader works, such as travel or wine guides, and not as part of standalone works. Of course, a large percentage of English speakers will likely encounter the province precisely through

2188:

Again, though, I don't think chronology is the most important factor here - explaining English-language usage is. And by that yardstick, only "South Tyrol" and "Alto Adige" matter, because those are by far the two most common names used in English-language sources for the province. Haut-Adige is only

1765:

Interesting discussion on the Brennerbasisdemokratie-Blog. As it seems, people from South Tyrol are much more reluctant to use the term "Sudtirolo" than people outside of our province, because it shows a political connotation, and they don't want to loose potential clients. The fear to loose a single

1217:

Trentino-South Tyrol are one region. Ladin is protected and used officially in Trentino, just like in South Tyrol. We either have them all in Ladin or not, otherwise it would be inconsistent. It is only in the region of Veneto where the rights and protection of minorities such as Ladins and Cimbrians

597:

Pitjantjatjara is not a location, but a language. Besides, there is an indication about how to pronounce it and a section "Pronunciation of the name". Moreover, there is no alternative to Pitjantjatjara in a more common language (while there is one for Ladin communes, in German and Italian, which are

3999:

The peasants and shepherds coming from Austria and South of Germany did not belong to the South Tyrol (= Province of Bolzano) geographically, culturally and ethnically. It was the "felix" Empire, towards which many people from South Tyrol have nostalgic feelings, that crossed the Alps, colonized and

3183:

this is a region of Italy and the offical name is Alto Adige/South Tyrol, because you want use only South Tyrol? is legally and officially registered in the records as the Italian Aldo Adige-Südtirol, which corresponds to the autonomous province of Bolzano (and not the province of South Tyrol, which

2944:

Oh, now I see. Others could think the NPOV stands for an undue weight for "South Tyrol", while you consider the bolding of "Alto Adige" of undue weight. If so, you should explain that in the NPOV tag. I agree with you (and my resarch done earlier, as well as ngrams confirm it), that "South Tyrol" is

2741:

Well, what other tag would be more in order in your opinion? We have not agreed yet, so some kind of tag needs to be there. If we agree to explain the terms "South Tyrol" and separately after that "Alto Adige", it makes sense to bundle the "Sudtirolo" into that first part as well, since it is not an

2653:

1) The problem with lists of sources is that they can't prove which term is most common, unless you list every single source that uses both terms. Otherwise, it's essentially a random list. For example, if you had a list of five sources using "South Tyrol", I could create a list of six sources using

2590:

I'd still keep the official names section as is. I tried to keep it as simple as possible, and anything I removed should be able to find its way into the history section or elsewhere. I'd actually be fine with taking out the last sentence of the Alto Adige paragraph, for that matter. What do you all

2500:

might help shed some light into the situation. 4) You seem to want to divide the "name" section into explaining South Tyrol and then Alto Adige, as opposed to a chronological order, followed by the official use of the moment, is that correct? 5) I am re-adding tags since we are still in disagreement

2287:

Just to illustrate my point: Assuming, that publications focussing on the province should at least mention the province's name in its title, we can do a search for English books with Alto Adige in its title on Google Books. So we get - as usual excluding Trentino in order to avoid hits for the wider

1405:

The Ladin language is a little bit overestimated here. "St Ulrich" and "Ortisei" are much more commonly used than "Urtijei" also among Ladins. This is not the argument I want to make anyway. I understand what Mai-scheme says, but it is absurd to have obscure "Urtijei", which is a distant third, just

4792:

And there may be a bias towards American sources too though that may not affect this much. I'm looking "Tyrolese" in 20th and 21st century publications and, certainly the first 3 titles are reprints of old books - Tyrol and the Tyrolese, The Tyrolese Melodies, and The Tyrolese Patriots of 1809. But

3737:

The problem of the articles about so called "South Tyrol" (and historical South Tyrol, i.e. Trentino, but also used for Trentino-Alto Adige) are not the names but the contents. There is a lot of POV supported by users who do not know very much about it and there are incredible omissions. This leads

2444:

1) You are backing your header sentence by having "Alto Adige" added to it with the claim that it is widely used in English as well. To what percentage though? And will that justify having it in the header sentence? So far the sources you have given are confusing in that they use South Tyrol at the

2424:

3) I also dropped "Haut-Adige" from the provenance of "Alto Adige", as regardless of whether the term originated in the Cisalpine Republic or the Kingdom of Italy, both of those states named their political units in Italian. So while "Haut-Adige" was used in French, there's no reason to refer to it

1470:

No, sorry Checco: "St Ulrich" and "Ortisei" are not more commonly used among ladins. We Ladins always call our town "Urtijëi". Many people also speak german, so "St.Ulrich" is second. "Ortisei" is a distant last. Obviously when talking to italians we use the italian name. And for foreign languages

1029:

I totally agree with Patavium and I think we should use either German or Italian names. Ladin names have no circulation outside Italy and they're definitely not of common usage in English. Why not using Friulian toponyms for Friuli, Venetian for Veneto, and so on? Patavium is right. And why Corvara

571:

It's a difficult topic starting to speculate about what English speakers might prefer to use. Honestly, I don't expect any native speakers to write or pronounce correctly Villnöß, Margreid, Laces or Fiè allo Sciliar either. So I don't see your point. What should prevent us from using Ladin names? I

3798:

This has been discussed for years and the current names reflect the consensus. I'm in full support of using the names of the majority of the population, which means using German for most municipalities but Italian for Bolzano. Merano is a tricky case. It is split almost equally between speakers of

3608:

Due to constant edit-warring between italian and german POV, it was decided by a large majority to use the names, the inhabitants use. Therefore for most towns in South Tyrol we use the german names (over 100) and only 5 towns with an italian majority use the italian name and a few ladin towns are

1297:, and come up with an objective criterion to choose a title. In South Tyrol, consensus has been to follow the official language survey. In Trentino or Veneto, you can propose the same, or you can propose to use Italian because 90+% of the towns in those province/regions are in Italian, or whatever. 1235:

The decrees and provincial laws you cited just apply to the province of Trent. Therefore I see no obstacle to keeping South Tyrol as the only exception. And yes, there is inconsistence in this discussion. When it is about to erase the Italian names, common usage is used as an argument. When common

979:

I had a look at the Ladin toponyms today. As far as I can see, Urtijëi seems to be the only "problematic" name. In the other cases the problem is either not or barely exisiting (Badia-Badia, Santa Cristina-Santa Cristina, Sëlva-Selva, Corvara-Corvara), mostly insignificant (I found no English book

871:

Original Research is if we come up with something that is not sourced; all the Ladin names are sourced, well documented and in use; and for none of them exists a widely accepted English name (widely doesn't mean it's a 30% more often used than any other variant, it means one name is overwhelmingly

4386:

A nationalist IP keeps changing the article against the established consensus of using the local name first. So the question is quite simple: should we stick to the established consensus of using the local name first or should we always use German first as its the majority language? Using Italian

4270:

instead of Province of Trento irritates me just as much if not more. From the outside, it looks as if Knowledge (XXG) can't distinguish between the official names of administrative subdivisions and the brand names that those same administrative subdivisions use worldwide to market their touristic

3756:

you're always welcome to expand the articles Patavium! These "incredible omissions" - please go and rectify that. But please do so with a positive attitude and a neutral point of view. Nobody here wants to re-open that idiotic discussion about names in this province and I dare say nobody wants to

2116:

The purpose of the section should be to inform the reader about the two most common current names for the province, and why there are two common names. That both South Tyrol and Alto Adige are widely used in English is an important encyclopedic fact, and it should be sufficiently explained to the

1500:

As far as I can see, Urtijëi seems to be the only "problematic" name. In the other cases the problem is either not or barely exisiting (Badia-Badia, Santa Cristina-Santa Cristina, Sëlva-Selva, Corvara-Corvara), mostly insignificant (I found no English book using Longiarù or Lungiarü, less than 50

1071:

I made a check. Actually there is a declaration of the linguistic group also in Trentino (but different from that of South Tyrol). So we could change the names of the Ladin, Cimbrian and Mócheno communes. In theory I see no problem to change them, as Trentino is not a place of ethnic tensions. In

1010:

I think this is not a good idea. In Trentino there is no ethnic proportion (so there is no objective criterion). Moreover, why excluding Veneto's Ladin places (with the following problem: is Cadore Ladin too)? Then why not using the Cimbrian names for the Cimbrian communes? Why not using Friulian

898:

I am sorry for not having been clear: my suggestion would have been to make a Google Books research for each of the eight Ladin communes. According to the result, the German or Italian name should be adopted. 380 or 355 is a clear result against 27 (1000% more often). This way to procede would be

1180:

The Ladin communities in Trentino with their language and culture and heritage are protected by the Italian state by law, just like in South Tyrol. The Italian parliament passed national law No. 482 of 1999, Legislative Decree No. 592 of 1993 and Provincial Law No. 4 of 1999 that put Ladin under

541:

I would like to open a new point of discussion concerning naming conventions of communes. It was politically correct to use the Ladin names, but I do not think that was a good solution. Using the German or Italian name would be more appropriate in my eyes. No English speaker would use Urtijëi. I

3899:

The bias against italians in this wiki article is outrageous. The authors forgot to mention the violent germanisation to which this region and its inhabitants were subject during the centuries. The history of this region doesn't start in 1922 with the birth of Fascsim. Maybe it should have been

3164:

To expand on what Sajoch said - Alto Adige and South Tyrol were both names given to the new political unit carved out of the old Tyrol after World War I - neither described a particular geographical area before then. Alto Adige in particular only has a small historical connection to the current

2627:

Let's try to fix one issue after the issue. The problem with not having referenced sources is that some other users (those involved in the past know what I am talking about) will clamour for some "proof". I also find it a bit tedious to have to source everything that seems to be common sense or

2411:

1) As for the first set of sources, they're not meant to be academic. They're simply meant to show that "Alto Adige" is used in English-language sources. I never claimed that any of the sources used "Alto Adige" exclusively. And if using "South Tyrol" is a criterion to question its use, then it

2271:

don't really focus on the province and hardly show a deliberate choice for one of the two names. In fact, I have the strong suspicion that (almost) everyone who writes precisely "about" the province (in recent times) uses South Tyrol. Alto Adige seems to me more like a debris of Italian source

673:

What now? Do you want to open a discussion about every single Ladin name now? To debate if we should choose either the Italian or German name? Or should we go with the second most spoken language in La Val - German? We need less discussion here and more article work! I agree with you that there

2694:

To Dohn Joe: There need to be sources that show that "South Tyrol" is used more commonly than "Alto Adige". Now how difficult can that be? To Mai-Sachme: please stop removing tags about issues which are not settled yet, it says in the notice "Discuss and resolve this issue before removing this

2305: 3600:

The "Italian" town names in South Tyrol are not really Italian. In fact, they are pure phantasy names invented by a fascist criminal called Ettore Tolomei, for the "Ialianziation" of South Tyrol. These names are also an insult for Italy's language and rich cultural traditon. In fact, even the

3367:

The article states that Austria and Italy ended their dispute with an autonomy agreement in 1992. It would like to point out that (as the article states previously, albeit in somewhat cloudy wording) the autonomy agreement dates back to the year 1972 while it took 20 more years to resolve the

2395:

therefore your claim hard to verify. And I don't know how an "Opinionated Tour of Italy's finest wines" can be considered as an academic source. Your quote about the Cisalpine Republic is also not clear, it is mentioned once on page 261 as "Distretto dell' Alto Adige Capo Luogo". Where is the

4402:

The difference is that Belgium and Switzerland have different official languages depending on the region, Italian is the first official language in all of Italy. Anyway, the first official name of this province is "Provincia autonoma di Bolzano", and not "South Tyrol" (in it.wiki we have two

2311: 1907:

No. This region is internationally primarily known as "South Tyrol". Also the majority of the inhabitants call it "South Tyrol" or with the german name "Südtirol" or italian "Sudtirolo", while only a minority (mostly italians) call it with the italian name "Alto Adige" imposed during fascist

732:

ei are very similar. Unless someone prefers the german names (Kurfar, Abtei, St.Christina, Wolkenstein, St.Martin, Wengen, Enneberg, St.Ulrich). BTW: in the ladin valleys there are more german than italian speakers - although considerably less than ladins, which always account for more than

2445:

same time. :2) The Cisalpine quote is not clear, can someone with Italian knowledge shed some light? :3) The Haut Adige was the term first given by Napoleon who created the Cisalpine republic and the Kingdom of Italy. The Italian term Alto Adige evolved from that, not the other way around.

4009:

Starting the history section with the chapter: Annexation by Italy, and then " With the rise of Fascism, the new regime made efforts to bring forward the Italianization of South Tyrol" is a ridiculous, gross and vulgar anti-italian propaganda:it is easy to start the history where is more

4770:), the fifth and sixth reflect the usage of Mary Shelley, the eighth is a reprint, the ninth again Mary Shelley, the eleventh is a book by Walter Scott... and so on and on. I didn't check the others, but I at least the results I looked at somehow reflect my private experience, that 4403:

different page), you can use the German or English name if you prefer, but please use the city (Bolzano/Bozen/Bulsan/Pouzen) and not the region (South Tyrol/Sud Tirolo/Südtirol). Because the "South Tyrol" is NOT an Italian province. (And a similar speech can be made for Trentino). --

3989:

The "enlightened" Marie Theresa imposed a policy of germanisation of the "ladini". She forbade the use of the ladin language in public meeting, religious services and during her reign many ladin surname were germanised (e.g.Elemunt=Elemunter, Melaun=Melauner, Costalungia=Kastlunger,

1570:

Taking the German names in the Ladin area wouldn't be a good idea, because a fair amount of them have become more or less unknown and practically unused (especially for smaller places currently without an article, but I also have to admit that the first time I came across the name

696:

What does being able to pronounce a word have to do with how many people speak the language? There is no connection and your argumentation makes no sense to me. According to your logic, Chinese names should be easy to pronounce because it's a language that many people speak.

2807:

Folks here may be interested to know that Gryffindor and I have been working on a new article about the historical district and department of Alto Adige/Haut-Adige/Upper Adige. We're having trouble picking the right title for the article, though. Check out the discussion at

2459:

1) I've removed the list of "South Tyrol" sources again, pending resolution of the issue here on the talkpage. If someone can explain the value of having those sources there, and why there should or should not be a corresponding list of "Alto Adige" sources, I'd appreciate

913:

Thanks for clearing that up. I admit 380/355 is much more than 27; however does 380 or 355 meant that this name is widely used in English??? and which one is more widespread? I think anything below some thousands of current uses in English is not really widely used...

3864:. Moreover, the reported IPA spelling of this word - with /tt/ instead of /dt/ - is wrong, quite laughably in a manner that (somehow) suggests the author of the introduction handling German phonetics better than the Italian one. Sometimes you might hear the adjective 2061:... I appeal to Gryffindor and Dohn joe to avoid further reverts and to discuss first on this talk page. I have to admit that I prefer Dohn joe's version (and especially his last edit), because I understand his argument that the several references are superfluous 2088:, you'll see that I tried to engage Gryffindor, but received no response other than in edit summaries which did not address my concerns. I would appreciate it if editors of this page would please take a look over there, and evaluate the situation for themselves. 1597:

I agree. The usage of the tourist boards tends to be sketchy with the names they use. I am also not in favour of using either German or Italian names for Ladin places, but to use the name of the native majority. That would be the most simple and stable solution.

2469:

3) Related to that, we now have sources calling the district "Alto Adige" in 1797 and 1798 - the very beginning of the Cisalpine Republic. If someone can prove that "Alto Adige" evolved from "Haut Adige", that's fine; otherwise, I don't think we can make that

397: 4261:

I know the issue was already discussed here. Nevertheless, I find it quite silly that of the over 100 provinces of Italy, there are two that do not follow the naming convention Province of X (Bolzano Alto-Adige / Bozen Südtirol and Trento). This goes against

3822:

The OP can't be taken seriously. The OP confuses legality with the population's will, doesn't know the Italian language, expresses anti-communist views, which don't have anything to do with this discussion and blames everything on the next dictator possible.

1535:

I agree with Mai-Sachme and Sajoch. We need to be consistent and either have the Ladin place names (which are also official) for the region or not. Using the names of places of the majority-speak in the absence of anything else is the most sensible solution.

1351:

Ps: I take Gryffindor's mention that "it is only in the region of Veneto where the rights and protection of minorities such as Ladins and Cimbrians are basically ignored or neglected" as a joke: neither Venetian language is protected susbstantially in fact!

3900:

remembered that the prevalent german speaking population is the result of centuries of forced germanization and migration of population from Austria and South Germany in a territory placed in the italian peninsula and inhabited by people culturally latin.

2166:

The problem with the chronological approach is that "South Tyrol" didn't exist until after World War I, when Italy created it as a province. So if we're talking about names for this province, chronology doesn't matter - they all came into being at the same

4387:

first because it's the national language, as the IP claims, is not really an option as it's contrary to established practice across Knowledge (XXG) (we don't use Dutch names for French parts of Belgium, German names for French parts of Switzerland, etc.).

3990:

Granruac=Großrubatscher). Maximilian I and uncle Franz were even worst, both self declared italophobe, they invented the policy of ethnic cleansing with the italians being the firsts victims. I wonder why this article does not mention anything of that.....

3721:

I agree with the anon user however that the name should be Meran, and not Merano. The majority of the population speaks German and we have established the rule to name the cities after the language spoken by the majority. That article needs to be moved.

2289: 3010:

my bad! after complains from color-blind people one of them changed the map from orange to blue to aid in him/them when looking at this map. I approved that change back then but forgot to also change the color descriptions. I will do that now. Sorry,

2516:

1)Unsure what to do. It's okay to cite sources, which show that the names are used, but it's not really necessary. It's certainly not okay to allow just sources for one name. 2) Alto Adige is fine in the leading sentence. 3) Knowledge (XXG) is not a

2204:

I think you misunderstand the spirit of the name section: it's not a ranking list of which names are used most (that's already accounted for in the first line of the first section), but an explanation of which names exist and how those names came to

1432: 2223:

and how those names came to be, since this is the English-language Knowledge (XXG). With that in mind, I've tried restructuring the names section, and added references using "Alto Adige" in English sources to mirror the sources using "South Tyrol".

1202:

Now that we have the pronounciation of the Ladin communes of South Tyrol, I see no obstacle to keeping the Ladin titles there. But as I said, South Tyrol should be the only exception. In the case of Trentino nothing should be changed = keep Italian

4755: 4725: 2152:?!? The name section then describes in a chronological order all the used/given/imposed names (not only the 2 most common ones). I only dislike the 7 references appended to the term South Tyrol - maybe we should combine them in a single footnote.-- 2299: 2296: 2293: 1075:

I am glad that Checco shares my point that the German or Italian names should be used for Ladin communes (even in South Tyrol). Me too, I cannot understand why Ladin should be taken into account and Friulian / Sardinian etc. have no dignity at

4560:

With all due respect "Look in the archives" is a pretty straight forward sentence. Again, this has been discussed and you haven't yet added anything new. If there are conclusions in the archive with which you agree, state with which and why.

1453:

I'm not a good Google researcher, so I trust you! What is sure is that there are much fewer entries for "Urtijëi" and that's the same with all the other Ladin-majority communes in the province. That's why a single discussion is relevent here.

473:, the northern, eastern and western part of an entity without claim of precision. The book in question talks about the italian language, and is written by an author who is neither hostorian nor geographer, but psychiatrist and criminologist.-- 1968:

I disagree with the IP's arguments, but the problem is real. Some weeks ago we decided to move the article to the current title on the basis that "South Tyrol" was the most common name for the province in English sources. It could be. Also

3497:, that you want to write into the article, implies something open to interpretation. That is simply not the case. Tyrol was divided by a border from east to west, creating a southern portion and a northern portion. The fact that the name 3533: 4647:

The name is correct! It is simply crazy to think that the name of an Italian / Russian / German region in the ENGLISH wikipedia has to be written in Italian / Russian / German: the name of the page for Germany is indeed "Germany", not

2524:

In general: I think we're giving too much (undue) weight to that section. I guess, that only a very small part of the readers of this article wants to be informed about the history of names. I'd really like to abbreviate that section.

1360:

And I definitely agree that the Ladin names are not widely used in English. But the problem is, neither are the German and Italian equivalents. And the thing about WP:COMMONNAME is that a name has to be, well, common for it really to

1783:

is another blog dealing with this topic. The author, who comes from Genoa, basically confirms your observations: He usually calls the province Sudtirolo, but he notes that Italian speakers from South Tyrol typically refuse that name

842:

I see your point, but would you say that one of the four options (Ortisei, St Ulrich, Ortisei/St Ulrich, St Ulrich/Ortisei) is a widely used and quite common English name? If not, what is your suggestion for the naming conventions?

325:

because there is no normative institution which could settle occuring variations (Tirolis vs Tirolia). Anyway, in general you are right that the given explanation for the origin of the term is rather dubious. And I also agree that

606:

you would see that Italian and German names are used. Knowledge (XXG) reflects the current usage and is not meant to impose the usage of names. The Ladin names are an imposition in this sense, German and/or Italian names would be

3246: 2676:

Okay, I tried to condense the section a bit, following dohn joe's proposal. Since Gryffindor's concerns only addressed the sources for the common usage of Alto Adige, which are not present anymore, I removed the tag in the Name

899:

consistent with the procedure that led to the move of this article to South Tyrol. We can postpone the discussion as I see there are points which seem to be more urgent (here and Trentino-Alto Adige or Trentino-South Tyrol).--

796: 1406:

because the much more common "Ortisei" and "St Ulrich" are tied for first place. Moreover it is not even true that these two placenames are tied for first place: actually "Ortisei" is the most commonly used name in English.

4314:

The history section of this article is unbalanced with nothing prior to the 20th century issues around transfer to Italy. The history section should give a balanced overview of the regional history across the centuries.

3627:

As to fictional names. In historical South Tyrol people have always spoken Italian (vast majority), with tiny minorities of Cimbrians and Mocheni, moreover Ladins in so called Anaunia and Fassa. Indeed, under Austrian rule

2117:

reader. The current version does not do so, mainly by burying the term "Alto Adige" in the middle of the second paragraph. Starting paragraphs with "South Tyrol" and "Alto Adige" shows quite simply what is being explained.

822:

I am saying that the Ladin names are not widely accepted English name at all. In so far the choice of that names is original research and they should not be kept. By the way Ortisei/St. Ulrich is more common than Urtijei,

1034:

and other communes are under the "XXXXX, Italy" format? Did we decide to use always the province or the region and not the country for Italian communes? If yes, this is OK with me, but we should be consistent everywhere.

601:

And as to Villnöß, Margreid, Laces or Fiè allo Sciliar it is more probable that an English speaker can pronounce an Italian or German name than a language spoken by 30,000 people all over the world. If you have a look at

3609:

under their ladin name. Moreover "Bolzano" and "Merano" were already used before South Tyrol was annexed to Italy and are not inventions by Tolomei. For evidence please see the history of this talk-page - good reading!--

1428: 2657:

2) I was actually thinking that a separate article on the history of "Alto Adige" - as district, department, and province - would be a good idea. I'll see if I can work something up - or anyone else is also free to do

1506: 4728:, "the Tyrolese" is now more common than "Tyroleans". I'd say both are entirely current, neither is wrong but Tyrolese has the edge when referring to the Tyrolean people. Of course, it's only used in that context. 1049:

As to the second part of your question, the convention is to use "XXXX, Region", and not "XXXX, Italy". Exceptions were recently made for South Tyrol and Trentino, as they are essentially treated like regions. See

1510: 792: 3969:

Well, it is like saying " mission acccomplished " in South Tyrol (= Province of Bolzano), now let's start to practice the ethnic cleansing against italians in other regions of the Empire: something to be proud

4528:

became (according to academic literature...) synonyms in the 1920s. There is no whatsoever difference in modern-day usage. This is also reflected by official usage, both by the province itself and the Italian

3979:

Romance people were still the majority till the XIV century in South Tyrol (= Province of Bolzano).The same name Tyrol has not a german root but latin. It derives from "teriol-triol" which come from the latin

3231:

Knowledge (XXG) does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.

1330: 3068:

2396:

information coming from in your sentence "Alto Adige was the name of a district in the Department of Benaco in the Cisalpine Republic, and consisted of municipalities now largely in the Province of Verona."?

1287:

Time out, folks. Firstly, this discussion was originally about the Ladin villages in South Tyrol. If we're moving on to Trentino and elsewhere, then we should be talking about it at the appropriate talkpages.

1411: 1407: 1368:

Start with WP:COMMONNAME. If there is a name used commonly in English-language sources, use it. If not, follow the advice of WP:NCGN#Multiple local names, and come up with an objective criterion to choose a

1355: 1334: 3859:

Probably, at least I hope, it's a topic that's already been raised quite a few times. If it hasn't, here's the point: no Italian speaker, at least among the mentally healthy, would ever call this province

1673:

Andreas misinterpreted the page in question: the southern part of South Tyrol is also called the "the garden of South Tyrol" - and nowhere is "the garden of South Tyrol" seen a synonym for the whole South

1095:

argument used to move this article to the current title should be applied also to Ladin-majority municipalities. Isn't it? I'm sure that both Dohn joe, Gryffindor, Mai-scheme, etc. will agree... Do they?

3738:

to hilarious discussions like this one. Atrocious crimes against humanity? Actually they were committed at the time of the reintroduction of certain names, and I am not talking about the Italian names.--

2539:

I agree 100% on all points. The current history of names section is probably too long, and is there more to satisfy the editors than the readers, so I'd also be happy condensing it. How does this sound:

3658:

The "historical South Tyrol" Patavium is referring to (the province of Trento), was called "Southern Tyrol" ("der Süden Tirols", "südliches Tirol" or "Welschtirol"). I think he confuses the two areas.--

751:) does not mean that it corresponds to Knowledge (XXG) standards. Let us continue with the example of Urtijei. The present solution goes against usage in English, which is the most important criterion. 1788:). Well, that's an exaggeration, because I know Italian speakers from South Tyrol who use Sudtirolo, but he may be right in the sense that Sudtirolo is probably more popular outside of the province. -- 827:. And it is not original research, as it is used by more sources than the Ladin name (I correct myself only 27 hits, including sources in German and Italian, not even English, thanks for the hint!).-- 3048:. Even because it is an area that is inside Italy and there it is a huge Italian speaking community in Alto Adige (that in Bolzano it is even the majority!).An Italian "altoatesino" born in Bolzano. 400:

that clearly refers to modern Alto Adige/Province of Bolzano. I leave it to others to see if "Tirolo meridionale" is widespread enough as a synonym for the modern province to include in the article.

803:? Or would you like to insert a section in the naming conventions, where you exclude Ladin names generally? And what would be a good solution for these cases? Original research article titles like 2945:

much more used, but moving the title of this article to "South Tyrol" was a lenghty struggle, so the bolding of "Alto Adige" really is the least of the problem - thats why I would omit this tag.--

414:

Okay, I give up, this is indeed a case where it is used as a synonym for the modern South Tyrol :-) Never heart it, though... But that's just my personal experience, maybe others know better. --

101:

Well, the information is certainly correct, but actually I don't know how to source it properly, because it's just obvious and common knowledge. The provincial government calls itself in German

3417:, while the poor and civilized Austro-Bavarian shepherds of Alto Adige claiming it to be an integral part of a long-gone County are simply assessing their rights against the bad, bad Italians. 2501:

and in current discussion, therefore obviously neutrality is not given yet. As it states in the tags, do not remove them until the issues have been clearly settled and we have found consensus.

1471:

we are often forced to use the italian name (as that's what our guests would find on their navi). So "Ortisei" is often used because we are "forced" to - you know the reason: it's history...--

622:

Uhm, you misunderstood my example with Pitjantjatjara and Uluru (probably my fault). Pitjantjatjara is a language spoken by not even 3,000 people. Nevertheless, Pitjantjatjara toponyms like

2929:. Having it in bold in the intro gives it undue weight. 2) The part which mentions the usage of "Sudtirolo" in Italian should be moved further up where the term "South Tyrol" is explained. 2084:, where Gryffindor and I have been trading edits back and forth on whether the editors of this South Tyrol page had also decided that Ladin names should be used in Trentino. If you look at 4019:

It is obvious that this article has been written by nationalists from South Tyrol but the last thing that the most spoilt minority in the World could do is to play the role of the victim.

1993:

Sometimes - or more often than usual - Knowledge (XXG)-editors are less ignorant than journalists of well-known newspapers. (The Economist also writes "Trento" instead of "Trentino") :-)--

4365:

on whether the two provincial presidents of Trentino ans South Tyrol should be equated to regional presidents, as it already happens in the Conference of Regions and Autonomous Provinces.

3597:

It's a clear insult against every native South Tyrolean to the "Italian" names "Merano" and "Bolznao" in English instead of the correct German names Meran and Bozen for these two cities.

1513:(and please note that most of the books are written in German and Italian)? Or should we take the name of the second largest linguistic group in each Ladin municipality, 3.95% Germans in 1273:

To Patavium: what do you mean with "erase the Italian names"? By that logic I could also ask you why "erase the Ladin names" when 1) the majority of there speaks it and 2) it's official?

776:

Any solution is good but the Ladin names. As to the Ayers Rock: Uluru is used very often indeed. There are 18,500 hits on google books indeed. Urtijei is practically never used instead.--

712:

There's really no need to change the ladin names - they're usually identical to the italian version: Corvara/Corvara, Badia/Badia, S.Cristina/S.Cristina, Sëlva/Selva, S.Martin/S.Martin

2995:, however, says that a Ladin majority is shown by the colour orange. Can anyone fix this contradiction? I don't know how to find the right code for the colour appearing in the map. -- 2307:

the number diminishes further. And if we finally consider the publication dates of the books we see that just one (!) of these books has been published in the last 30 years, i.e. the

2417:

2) As for the Cisalpine citation, it seemed pretty clear to me that the "Distretto dell'Alto Adige" was part of the "Dipartimento del Benaco" in the Cisalpine Republic, and that the

2085: 748: 1126:. That guideline suggests using an objective, if arbitrary criterion to select article titles. In South Tyrol, that criterion is the language survey, according to current consensus. 202:

provides traffic statistics for each Knowledge (XXG) article. When we have a look at the stats for January 2011 (when South Tyrol was still a redirect like Alto Adige), we see that

1501:

using San Martino in Badia or St. Martin in Thurn...) and sometimes literally undecidable (How can I find good results for names like Abtei, Mareo, La Val, La Valle, La Villa...?).

542:

could even live with it, if there were an indication about how to pronounce it. I mean, we are talking about a language spoken by some 30,000 people. It would be really helpful.--

3697: 1300:

And Patavium, if you feel that there is enough evidence to show that Canazei or St. Ulrich are the common names, go ahead and bring that up on those talkpages. Like I said, the

807:? Don't you think that it's better to keep everything as it is, even if Knowledge (XXG) has to use a limited number of rarely used toponyms for a couple of mountain villages? -- 1624:

This term is sometimes used in Italian, but we need to document this with sources. Again, hard to come by with, given the name is not official. One thing I notices is that at

1114:

out there. And I definitely agree that the Ladin names are not widely used in English. But the problem is, neither are the German and Italian equivalents. And the thing about

2466:

showing that the District of Alto Adige was in the Department of Benaco in the Cisalpine Republic, and included the town of Zevio. Therefore, I added it back to the article.

3693: 3633: 1505:

Anyway, if you object to Ladin names generally, what is your concrete proposal? Should we start to count Google Books hits, for example resulting in a competition between

4816: 1123: 958: 658: 4856:

This was discussed at great length, and the consensus was that Merano is by far the dominant form in English and should be used for the article. Look in the archives of

4362: 2927: 1072:

practice I would not make the change, because the Italian names are those commonly used (Canazei is quite famous for tourism) and because of the Friulian etc. argument.

4203: 4199: 4185: 2551:) is the term most commonly used in English for the province, and its usage reflects that the province was created from a portion of the southern part of the historic 3604:

Using these fictional names in English instead of the original German and Ladin ones is like a posthumous glorification of Mussolini and his crimes against humanity!

4294:

is far and away the most common English name for the political entity, almost exclusively used in the body of political and historical literature on the subject. --

265:

I found the justification of this term very weak. It is mainly used in pre-1919 publictions used in the sense of "southern Tyrol", or for the Trentino such as the

2661:

3) And yes, Mai-Sachme, as far as I know it was just two. I put "various" more or less as a weasel word, since I haven't found a source saying it was exactly two.

2185:, but doesn't show up in earnest until the 1820s. So by that yardstick, "Haut-Adige" should go first, followed by "Alto Adige", "Südtirol", and then "South Tyrol". 4754:, which doesn't quite match my personal experience, but that might be biased, of course. Still, though, one has to be careful with Ngram. When you have a look at 4671:

I'm inserting a little paragraph regarding Transhumance in the Culture section. I really hope you appreciate my contribution. I wish you all an happy new year! --

3569:

I agree 100% with User:Mai-Sachme|Mai-Sachme]]. About the last point, it is enough to have a look to the diaries of Ciano, to know the fascist policy towards the

2421:

listed thereafter were largely part of today's Province of Verona. If that latter phrase seems too much like original synthesis, then I'd be willing to drop it.

1744:È strano osservare come una denominazione sempre più popolare nell’uso quotidiano abbia, invece, grossissime difficoltà ad affermarsi altrettanto «sul mercato». 1583:... And I strongly oppose to the idea that we should basically put the power to choose Knowledge (XXG) article titles into the hands of local tourist boards. -- 3392:

South Tyrol is the term that is most commonly used in English and its usage reflects that it was created from a portion of the southern part of the historic

4579:

I simply can't read all the archives, I read some and is all wrong. What should I add? They are two different things, period; I literally can't add more. --

1651:

Sudtirolo is certainly not only the southernmost part of the province, more evidence that we should avoid to take touristic websites as references... Does

1580: 1414:" are about the saint! These are just facts. "Ortisei" is thus the only reasonable and viable title for the article per WP:COMMONNAME and common sense. -- 1198:

If you have a look at those pieces of legislation, ou see that they always use bi- or trilingual names with the Italian name first (notice use of slash).

791:

When doing a Google Books search with such a limited number of hits, you should always go the last page for the real number of results. Eventually, I get

603: 99:

German speakers refer to it simply as Südtirol and usually refer to it not as a Provinz, but as a Land (such as the Länder of either Germany or Austria).

4759: 1926:

suggest that Australia is still part of the British Empire? And how come South Tyrol's Italian equivalent Sudtirolo is gaining increasing popularity? --

1730:

Sorry Sajoch, but the second reference was original research at its best. Our current problem is that we can only source the information either using a

1122:

for it really to apply. And we actually have other guidance when there are multiple foreign names for places, none of which are widely used in English:

2303:

papers presented at the International Meeting on Protein Semisynthesis : held on 4-8th September, 1977 at Bressanone-Brixen, Alto Adige-Sudtirol, Italy

2292:. Unfortunately, some of them are actually written in Italian, counting only English books i come to the number of 27. Excluding multiple entries like 2014: 1255:

common English usage of names for some South Tyrolean mountain villages. But there is one regarding the whole province, please don't mix things up. --

1199: 2518: 2263:). Secondly, I think the sources presented in reference 3 are a bit odd since they are apparently just randomly chosen Google Books hits. Books like 1735: 1807: 4626:

This page has a wrong name; names of italian 'regioni' and 'province' are written in the Italian Constitution; please fix it as soon as possible!

2020: 1521:

If you have a good, objective criterion that brings better results than the linguistic majority principle, please tell us and we can discuss it. --

1387:

To Checco: we are not here to discuss the status of the Venetian language, so I don't understand where the "joke" you refer to is supposed to be.

2886:

Since we've been waiting now for a couple of weeks and we still don't have a clue what precisely is not neutral and undue, I removed the tags. --

496:

I deleted the passage today. I think the "Name" section doesn't generally match the interest of most readers and is already overloaded enough. --

3799:

German and Italian. The policy in this case has been to use Merano because it is by far the more common name used in English. So just as we say

2357:

The chronological order makes more sense to illustrate the different name. There are open questions about the sources you are using, see below.

2343:

wine and travel guides, rather than more academic publications, so I think it's still fair to say that both names are commonly used in English.

2571:(English: "Upper Adige"), one of the Italian names for the province, is also used in English. Its usage reflects that the upper portion of the 1885:

Shouldn't this entry be called Alto Adige? The only people who call it the South Tyrol are the people who claim it is really part of Austria.

147: 4151: 1979:(see chart), the well-known British newspaper uses "Piedmont", "Lombardy", "Tuscany", "Apulia", "Sicily", "Sardinia" and... "Alto Adige"! -- 4633: 4322: 4266:, which ironically brings as an example exactly the provinces of Italy. Mind that this is not a politically motivated rant and that seeing 3659: 3477: 2926:

I still disagree. 1) The NPOV tag is due to the fact that the term "South Tyrol" is used twice as much in English as the term "Alto Adige"

2121:

Some of the changes, such as adding the official Ladin name, should stay. What do other editors think of returning to the earlier version?

2108:

This section has seen a lot of edits over the last week. I'd like to propose largely restoring it to its previous version - something like

1892: 1142:

As for Sardinian and Friulian towns - feel free to make a case for them, too. You never know what Wikipedian consensus will come up with!

857:

I agree with Users Mai-Sachme, Sajoch, and noclador. I don't see any sense in disregarding the Ladin names, as they are official as well.

3451:

It was reused as the Italian name of the current province after its post-World War I creation, and was a symbol of the subsequent forced

330:

is by no means common or at least regularly used in Italian in order to refer to South Tyrol and not really necessary for the article. --

3824: 3055: 2912: 2831:

Okay, folks. Let's get down to the NPOV and the UNDUE tags currently in the article. Since there are two tags, I'll ask two questions.

2389: 2383: 2720:, in an article about a political subdivision other topics are far more important than the third most used name in a specific language. 2386: 4161: 3881: 3094: 3468:. A neutral, and objective statement, instead of the former, which is emotional in a way I do not even consider to comment at lenght. 932:. Most common name does not override that policy but has to be in sync with it. On top of that the Ladin names are official as well. 929: 755:

37 matches for Ladin Urtijei in texts written in English (note that it is not used alone, but together with the Italian/German name)

4181:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

3636:, Roncegno is in what is now called Trentino, just an example out of thousands), sometimes the region from Brenner to Borghetto.-- 1128:

Of course, consensus can change. And if someone wanted to suggest a new criterion, I'd be open to hear it. But I don't think it's

3700:(Levico next to Trent (South Tyrol)). After heavily abusing Italian history, please try at least not abuse of Austrian history.-- 1750:

was enhanced by the Italian left in the 70ies. Unfortunately, I don't remember where I read it, maybe I'll find out on Monday. --

1236:

usage would suggest the usage of Italian (Canazei) or German names (St. Ulrich), then you exclude the validity of common usage.--

1690:

The sources were there, and they were quite prominent too - why did you remove them? Many italians prefer to call this province

3098: 2018: 1157:

I agree. The whole South Tyrolean municipalities naming discussion is based on the observation that there are, in most cases,

4699: 2240: 4432:

And what is the "English usage" exactly? The name seems correct for all the other provinces, why those two are different? --

2716:

Sudtirolo is already mentioned prominently in the introduction. More details about its usage in Italian would be completely

2326:. But I'm just playing around with search tools. "Alto Adige" is certainly used, but I suspect mostly in casual contexts. -- 1922:

The fairy tale that the usage of "South Tyrol" implies some kind of historical revisionism is getting boring. Does the name

3044:

The neutrality of the article is STILL disputed, even if some Austrians want to erase the tag. The article should be named

1161:

widely used English names. That's why we came up with the census data, in order to have at least an objective criterion. --

4767: 3816: 3731: 3618: 3294: 3291: 3087: 2988: 2709:

I removed the old tag, because the reason of your concerns (the given sources for Alto Adige) had been removed. Your new

1517:

beating 2.75% Italians? I'm not joking, I admit that Urtijëi is probably not the best choice, but it's not enough to say:

359: 131: 4720:

both these terms are used in current English as adjectives plus Tyrolese means the Tyrolean people. For example, see the

4778:

far more common in contemporary usage. But this is, of course, just a hasty online research done by me. Best regards, --

4588: 4502: 4441: 4412: 4346: 4246: 1485:"St Ulrich" is OK, "Urtijëi" (which anyway sounds much more similar to "Ortisei"!) is encyclopedically unsustainable. -- 965:. Exactly this appears to be the case for the Ladin villages, so we should stick to the local and official place names. 4337:

The province was established in 1923, it's quite normal. In addition there's a separate page for the previous story. --

671:"According to the 2001 census, 97.67% of the population speak Ladin, 1.75% German and 0.58% Italian as first language." 604:

http://www.suedtirol.info/Ortisei_St_Ulrich/Holiday_resort/L-522822C951CA11D18F1400A02427D15E-en-Ortisei_St_Ulrich.html

4819:

in South Tyrol we should use the denomination of the language of the linguistic majority. This implies also a move of

4599: 3536:... As I said: I really don't think that getting in an argument about plainly obvious facts is doing anybody any good. 2063:

since they don't discuss the prevalence of "South Tyrol" in English - only that those particular sources use that name

4469: 3551:? And please note again, that there is a specific reference for the sentence, citing a book written by the historian 663:"Therefore, articles about locations in South Tyrol are placed according to the language of the linguistic majority." 4171: 963:

English discussion is often so limited that none of the above tests indicate which of them is widely used in English

3532:. That piece of information is excellenty referenced, and if you distrust the cited literature, you may want to do 3264: 3200: 1200:

http://www.minoranzelinguistiche.provincia.tn.it/binary/pat_minoranze/NormativaPAT/1993_592_Dlgs_ITA.1191844364.pdf

72: 67: 59: 38: 3684:

Maybe you have difficulties with German language. Braumüller, which is one of Austria's oldest publishers (he was

4695: 4112:

Please take a "piece" of "bias" or what is missing, suggest here what should be, with sources, and let's talk. --

799:. Considering these numbers, what are you suggesting? Is there an evidence that either St Ulrich or Ortisei is a 393: 4202:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

2680:

Regarding the Neutrality tag: Gryffindor, am I right to suppose that you object to the mention of Alto Adige? --

2425:

in this section, unless someone can show explicitly that it led directly to "Alto Adige". Does that make sense?

557:

I moved this to a new section, as the use of Ladin is a separate issue from how to disambiguate in this region.

4637: 4326: 3481: 2261:

The young Alexander conquered India. Was he alone? Caesar beat the Gauls. Did he not even have a cook with him?

2255:

In general I'm fine with the section in its current shape, just two minor remarks: I don't like the claim that

4072: 3663: 3211:

Because "South Tyrol" is the english name, and this is the english Knowledge (XXG). It's really that simple.--

3067: 1896: 1435:. If you think that this is enough evidence for a common English name, then you should go to the talk page of 3828: 4668: 4237: 4143: 3944:. The area nowadays known as South Tyrol (= Province of Bolzano) has been largely German-speaking since the 3885: 3316: 3166: 3059: 2916: 2016: 970: 573: 432:

we need sources. Do we really want to use this one book about the Italian language where the phrase is used

4629: 4318: 3226: 3188: 3147: 3051: 2908: 2228: 1888: 1290: 1135: 1129: 1115: 1111: 1092: 374:, but it's talking about the Napoleonic department "Haut Adige" established in the early 19th century with 4879: 4828: 4653: 4139: 4094: 3844: 3578: 3406: 2080:

I apologize for my part in the edit war. I take responsibility for having it spill over to this page from

4694:) for the CoA image in the infobox. Can someone link this for me? Sincerely, a noob who's bad at editing. 4152:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110821012516/http://www.provinz.bz.it/en/downloads/South-Tyrol-Autonomy.pdf

3120:

Alto Adige/South tyrol is a geographic area, in this voice is about the Autonomous province of Bolzano --

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is far and away the most commonly used English name for the province. And it's not particularly close...

4221:

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

4209: 2579:, and was reintroduced as the Italian name of the current province after its post-World War I creation." 2309:

proceedings of the Sesto-2001 Workshop held in Sesto Pusteria, Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy, 3-6 July 2001

1011:

toponyms for places in Friuli? And so on. South Tyrol is the exception, we should not make it the rule.

644:

The usage of Ladin names is totally fine, don't see why Italian or German names should be used instead.

4676: 4142:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 4042: 3373: 1845:

Good! (Although I miss the reference to Bondi's letter...) Can the referenced books be viewed online?--

804: 3757:

discuss who committed what crimes when against whom... and so on. So can we all just move on? thanks,

2575:

is found in the province. The term had been the name of various political subdivisions in the time of

1289:

Second, we have a process in place to decide the article titles for non-South Tyrol towns. Start with

4798: 4783: 4733: 4649: 4607: 4537: 4299: 4050: 3953: 3727: 3560: 3330: 3254: 3106: 3075: 3030: 3000: 2971: 2934: 2891: 2877: 2793: 2747: 2732: 2700: 2685: 2633: 2618: 2530: 2506: 2450: 2401: 2362: 2331: 2277: 2070: 2039: 1931: 1868: 1835: 1793: 1755: 1664: 1603: 1588: 1541: 1526: 1444: 1392: 1378: 1293:. If there is a name used commonly in English-language sources, use it. If not, follow the advice of 1278: 1260: 1223: 1188: 1166: 1031: 1000: 985: 937: 928:

Naming Ladin places with Italian or German names would be in conflict with the policy on neutrality:

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levied taxes. And weren't there recent changes following the Accordo di Milano/Mailänder Abkommen? --

501: 419: 383: 349: 335: 227: 177: 161:. Unfortunately for Knowledge (XXG), this is a fluid and contentious issue that is hard to document. 127: 1746:) If I remember correctly, I once read in a book (or in a journal?) that the popularity of the term 4162:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110905153901/http://www.provincia.bz.it/en/downloads/Siz_2010-eng.pdf

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should be noted that at least one of the "South Tyrol" sources also uses "Alto Adige" on occasion:

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Look in the archives. This has been discussed in great detail here over the years. There's also a

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to Meran. There could be an exception only if in the English sources Merano prevails over Meran.

4155: 3948:. The slow linguistic shift between 600 and 1300 was neither "violent" nor politically planed. -- 3784: 3762: 3743: 3705: 3641: 3348: 3312: 3301: 3174: 3016: 2847: 2817: 2769: 2666: 2596: 2478: 2430: 2348: 2236: 2194: 2126: 2093: 1313: 1241: 1208: 1147: 1081: 1059: 1019: 966: 919: 904: 877: 832: 781: 702: 679: 612: 562: 547: 405: 146:, even in official publications, see for example the official translation of the Autonomy Statute 4721: 4690:

Hi all, I've been having absolutely outrageous difficulties in linking the appropriate article (

4206:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

3493:

a) Sorry, but I don't have any idea what you are talking about (Ascoli? Shepherds?)... The word

3459:

It was reused as the namesake of the current province when it joined Italy after the victory in

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are synonyms, we use the name which appears most frequently in English literature, and that is

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I also removed the POV tag, as I believe everything in the Alto Adige paragraph is verifiable.

2219:

I agree completely - with the understanding that the article should focus on which names exist

1716:

I could not find the sources in the History. If you know where they are, please put them back.

1439:. But I have to admit that you seem to have a different concept of "common" than the others. -- 453:

in a context which included todays Trentino. I wouldn't give this single book too much weight (

4875: 4843: 4824: 4276: 4090: 4080: 4024: 3922: 3840: 3574: 3476:, and I've been asked to produce them here on the talk page. So I've done. I expect inputs. -- 2380: 4532:

South Tyrol is an entirely different administrative entity than regular Italian provinces. --

4484:: The title is not precise, the province of Bolzano and South Tyrol are two different things. 4287: 4263: 2723:

Could you please explain precisely the NPOV-tag in the introduction and the UNDUE-tag in the

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Not only that, but my Google Books search shows that the earliest use of "Haut-Adige" was in

2081: 1301: 1294: 1051: 800: 4865: 4584: 4566: 4498: 4459: 4437: 4423: 4408: 4392: 4372: 4342: 3945: 3812: 3614: 3216: 3155: 2950: 2863: 2210: 2157: 1998: 1984: 1913: 1850: 1771: 1707: 1679: 1561: 1490: 1476: 1459: 1419: 1342: 1101: 1040: 738: 478: 250: 47: 17: 4229: 4165: 3428:(literally translated in English: "Upper Adige"), one of the Italian names for the province 1976: 1863:. Unfortunately the books can't be viewed online, that's why I had to wait until Monday. -- 1731: 219: 4794: 4779: 4763: 4745: 4729: 4715: 4603: 4533: 4295: 4046: 3949: 3937: 3723: 3556: 3552: 3393: 3326: 3250: 3102: 3071: 3026: 2996: 2967: 2930: 2887: 2873: 2809: 2789: 2743: 2728: 2696: 2681: 2629: 2614: 2552: 2526: 2502: 2446: 2397: 2358: 2327: 2273: 2066: 2035: 2009: 1927: 1923: 1864: 1831: 1789: 1751: 1660: 1599: 1584: 1575:

was here on Knowledge (XXG)). By the way, the same is true for probably more than half of

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Dohn Joe, what are these sources you are showing? The book here you quote for Alto Adige

1908:

occupation. For more evidence please look through the past discussions of this article.--

207: 120: 4478:: I don't know anyone who uses this name to indicate precisely the province of Bolzano. 4188:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 4113: 3464: 3452: 3410: 3268: 3196: 3125: 2991:

shows the Ladin municipalitites coloured in blue. The legend of the map in the section

1952: 1817: 1717: 1640: 1576: 437: 302: 273:), an association from Trentino. Etymology is wrong, the term does not come from Latin 162: 4750:

Thanks, very interesting... I have to say I'm genuinely surprised by the frequency of

4228:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

4195: 3932:"His Majesty" wasn't talking about the modern-day South Tyrol. Prior to 1918 the name 3779:@noclador: Sure, you are right. We should not reopen the discussion about the names.-- 1786:

parola che ben difficilmente un italiano nato in provincia si sognerebbe di utilizzare

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werden im „Amtsblatt“ der Region in italienischem und deutschem Wortlaut kundgemacht;

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I think this is rather imprecise, because the province doesn't get 90% of literally

172:

But if you have the official documents as a link, that should suffice as reference.

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Talk:List of political parties in Italy/Archive 1#Regional presidents in infoboxes

1625: 396:. Now, most of the results do refer to the area based around Trent - but not all. 4172:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160202005914/http://www.bbt-se.com/en/did-you-know/

106: 4883: 4869: 4861: 4847: 4832: 4802: 4787: 4737: 4703: 4680: 4657: 4641: 4611: 4580: 4570: 4562: 4541: 4494: 4463: 4455: 4445: 4433: 4427: 4419: 4404: 4396: 4388: 4376: 4368: 4350: 4338: 4330: 4303: 4280: 4251: 4135: 4121: 4098: 4084: 4054: 4028: 3957: 3926: 3889: 3848: 3832: 3808: 3788: 3766: 3747: 3709: 3667: 3645: 3610: 3582: 3564: 3485: 3460: 3377: 3352: 3334: 3320: 3305: 3273: 3258: 3220: 3212: 3204: 3178: 3159: 3151: 3129: 3110: 3079: 3020: 3004: 2992: 2975: 2954: 2946: 2938: 2920: 2895: 2881: 2867: 2859: 2851: 2821: 2797: 2773: 2757: 2751: 2736: 2704: 2689: 2670: 2637: 2622: 2600: 2572: 2534: 2510: 2482: 2454: 2434: 2405: 2366: 2352: 2335: 2281: 2214: 2206: 2198: 2161: 2153: 2130: 2097: 2074: 2043: 2002: 1994: 1988: 1980: 1957: 1940: 1935: 1917: 1909: 1900: 1872: 1854: 1846: 1839: 1822: 1797: 1775: 1767: 1759: 1722: 1711: 1703: 1683: 1675: 1668: 1645: 1607: 1592: 1565: 1557: 1545: 1530: 1494: 1486: 1480: 1472: 1463: 1455: 1448: 1423: 1415: 1396: 1382: 1346: 1338: 1317: 1282: 1264: 1245: 1227: 1212: 1192: 1170: 1151: 1105: 1097: 1085: 1063: 1044: 1036: 1023: 1004: 989: 974: 941: 923: 908: 881: 866: 852: 836: 816: 785: 742: 734: 706: 683: 653: 639: 616: 589: 566: 551: 531: 505: 482: 474: 442: 423: 409: 387: 353: 339: 307: 254: 246: 231: 181: 167: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

4758:, scroll down and examine the actual book results you get. If you click on the 4493:

If it does not respect your own guidelines, how can it be the correct title? --

1739: 211: 4595: 4194:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 3903:

Meeting of the Council of Ministers of 12 November 1866 Emperor Franz Joseph.

3511:

reflects that it was created from a portion of the southern part of the Sudan.

3146:

are the same "thing". The name chosen here is the common english name, as per

2030:. I'm not sure what you are trying to tell us. Is anyone here who denies that 1652: 1436: 627: 301:

by Francesco Ambrosi, Volume 1 page 822 note 1). I would delete this passage.

203: 4774:

was once widely used and got more and more replaced by Tyrolean, which to me

215: 4490:: The title is completely different to those of the other Italian provinces. 3519:

reflects that it was created from a portion of the western part of Virginia.

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What - precisely - is being treated in a non-neutral fashion in the article?

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Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Ladin_names_in_Trentino

765:

841 for German St. Ulrich Italy (to distinguish from St. Ulrich as a saint)

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a fiscal regime that allows the province to retain 90% of all levied taxes.

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and the official publication of the provincial press office is called "Das

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I think that we should change the name of Merano in Meran here, since per

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WHAT A SHAME! ALTO ADIGE is in Italy, don't forget it... Un altoatesino.

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Knowledge (XXG):Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Multiple_local_names

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As to Urtijei: it would be fine if someone could add the pronounciation.--

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b) Well, recently we've been witnessing people denying even the obvious (

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think the number of native speakers is negligible. How many people speak

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statement there. Please be more specific. Are you referring to the word

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usage". Perhaps it would be clearer putting it the other way 'round...?

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In general I think your proposal is appropriate. But were there really

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This might be an interesting data point for those who still think that

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annexed and renamed parts of the County of Tyrol (citing Bert Brecht:

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Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this and remove the tags soon.

1572: 666: 2313:. Certainly a surprising outcome for a "commonly used English" name. 3521:

Is that an opinion? I really don't know, if you're being serious...

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Okay, Bondi is probably a good source for the alternative spelling

1702:- that's a fact: it suffices to look around and hear people talk.-- 157:

The provincial institutions are always referred to with the prefix

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instead of 'Firenze', we use Merano as it is common English usage.

3526:

There is no evidence that Suarez bit Giorgio Chiellini's shoulder.

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This has been discussed numerous times: we follow English usage.

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is our general guideline. As repeatedly pointed out in the past,

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germanised italian territories and populations, not the contrary.

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is the only alternative name of the area which gets used, beyond

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Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (geographic names)#South Tyrol

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What is UNDUE about the names section as it's currently written?

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See for example article 57 of the German verion of the statute:

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http://www.provinz.bz.it/en/downloads/South-Tyrol-Autonomy.pdf

3169:- the first "Alto Adige" was much farther south than today's. 2613:

called "Alto Adige"? Not just two, or did I miss something? --

25: 3547:. Are you denying that the Italianization of South Tyrol was 113: 138:

Except of the name of the province itself, the Italian term

3698:

Analyse der Mineralquellen von Levico bei Trient (Südtirol)

3325:

Yes, I updated this article here and all municipalities. --

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Grandi Vini: An Opinionated Tour of Italy's 89 Finest Wines

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Grandi Vini: An Opinionated Tour of Italy's 89 Finest Wines

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is only the southernmost part of the province, also called

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The fact that there might have been unanimous acceptation (

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Federazione delle Compagnie Schützen del Tirolo Meridionale

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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readers to start the lenghty discussions all over again.--

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Knowledge (XXG):Polling is not a substitute for discussion

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Has the 2011 census meanwhile been incorporated into WP?

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This rule should also apply to Ladin places in Trentino.

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http://www.provincia.bz.it/en/downloads/Siz_2010-eng.pdf

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The problem is not the forum but that this article is a

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refers to a southern portion of Tyrol is by no means an

2760:, where "Sudtirolo" is mentioned, it's called "Official 1732:

synthesis of published material that advances a position

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lists all the details for all the villages and cities.

2109: 2059: 2056: 1860: 1828: 1503: 1371: 1363: 3528:), but I don't think, that we need a discussion about 3472:

All these changes I've been making have been reverted

4817:

Knowledge (XXG):Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)

665:... you wish to change that? Lets take as an example 151:

Die Gesetze und die Verordnungen der Region und des

4198:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 3936:typically referred to the southernmost part of the 1433:

339 for St Ulrich + tirol (and excluding the saint)

218:for South Tyrol. By looking at the April stats for 2872:I agree, I don't see any reason for these tags. -- 198:is the most common English name for the province. 4472:, and I can say that this title is wrong because: 4286:The topic has already been discussed ad nauseam. 2318:Doing the same procedure with South Tyrol we get 3505:... But let's have a look at analogue examples: 2521:. 5) I don't think, that the tags are necessary. 957:Keeping the Ladin names seems the wisest thing. 2382:clearly gives "South Tyrol" as well on page 26 2173:, with the first use of "Alto Adige" coming in 1626:http://www.vacanza-alto-adige.it/sudtirolo.html 576:? And how many people know and use the toponym 4184:This message was posted before February 2018. 3339:for all interested parties: a view by the BBC 2148:". What more promiment could you put the name 392:Never say never. Do a Google Books search for 3872:is definitely dominant between Italians, and 1947:, the opposite of revisionism. The same with 8: 3593:It's Bozen and Meran, not Bolzano and Merano 364:sometimes also refers to today's South Tyrol 358:Rarely, and it never refers to South Tyrol. 293:is the castle, wheras the region is in Latin 289:is a neologism and is wrong anyway, because 4762:time frame... the first book is a reprint ( 2812:and weigh in if you're interested. Thanks! 2272:material - just my original research... -- 2177:, while the first use of "Südtirol" was in 1655:suffice as reference (see also the section 1138:in the Trentino-Alto Adige move request? :) 206:searched for an article called Alto Adige, 4627: 4316: 3403:the opinion it was created from a portion, 1581:Prontuario dei nomi locali dell'Alto Adige 4134:I have just modified 3 external links on 3688:, but maybe you ignore the meaning) used 3265:Talk:South Tyrol/Archive 4#Requested move 4594:It seems to me quite weird that typing " 3387:The article at its current state reads: 3293:, the pdf attached to the press release 1975:tells a different story. In fact in its 598:much more common languages than Ladin). 455:eine Schwalbe macht noch keinen Frühling 3839:Bolzano and Merano are the right names. 3686:k.u.k. hof- und universitätsbuchhändler 2269:Mussolini: the last 600 days of il Duce 961:is wise enough to point to cases where 362:(which is supposed to source the claim 4176:http://www.bbt-se.com/en/did-you-know/ 3895:This is a disturbing one sided article 3692:in order to indicate today's Trentino 3165:geographical area. See its history at 2144:(...), also known by its Italian name 344:Yes... but it does exist, doesn't it? 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4722:Collins dictionary entry for Tyrolese 1134:By the way, where was your appeal to 7: 2385:. Same problem applies to this book 1827:I found excellent references today. 1218:are basically ignored or neglected. 3694:Das Mineralbad Roncegno in Südtirol 3634:Das Mineralbad Roncegno in Südtirol 3093:Move requests have been brought up 2181:. "South Tyrol" has one entry from 1308:. If there is one, then we use it. 3632:meant today's province of Trento ( 3432:the standard name for the province 1579:'s Italian toponyms listed in the 1507:20 books using St. Martin in Thurn 770:1,560 for German St. Ulrich Bozen 24: 4838:Completely agree. Still not done 4138:. Please take a moment to review 1698:, and its inhabitants are called 537:Naming conventions (use of Ladin) 277:, but from the two Italian words 4454:at the top of this talk page... 4357:Regional presidents in infoboxes 3401:I demand this to be changed to: 3383:POV-pushing bias in the article. 2756:If you look at the title of the 2391:, and this one cannot be opened 1118:is that a name has to be, well, 1110:I am one of the biggest fans of 630:are worldwide known and used. -- 457:). Italians usually denote with 29: 3413:is a clear, hateful example of 3225:We are following the guideline 930:WP:Neutral_point_of_view#Naming 4043:Knowledge (XXG) is not a forum 3940:, which is today known as the 3890:22:32, 14 September 2017 (UTC) 3144:Autonomous province of Bolzano 3033:) 14:49, 1 September 2011 (UTC 2976:11:24, 15 September 2011 (UTC) 2955:10:14, 13 September 2011 (UTC) 2939:22:13, 12 September 2011 (UTC) 2611:various political subdivisions 2022:, exactly as The Economist in 797:355 hits for "st ulrich" tirol 707:09:32, 13 September 2022 (UTC) 1: 4884:08:04, 12 December 2022 (UTC) 4870:20:39, 11 December 2022 (UTC) 4848:17:01, 11 December 2022 (UTC) 4681:17:03, 27 December 2020 (UTC) 4542:15:23, 17 February 2019 (UTC) 4331:12:54, 8 September 2018 (UTC) 4252:15:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC) 4089:we need to use a better tone. 3868:, but still it's rather odd, 3696:. Or if you prefer this one: 3405:etc. I do not understand why 3274:22:00, 21 November 2011 (UTC) 3259:14:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC) 3221:14:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC) 3205:13:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC) 3179:01:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC) 3160:01:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC) 3130:00:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC) 3111:19:37, 21 November 2011 (UTC) 3088:Municipalities of South Tyrol 3080:18:09, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 3021:12:17, 1 September 2011 (UTC) 3005:11:40, 1 September 2011 (UTC) 2324:48 of them written after 1980 1511:15 using San Martino in Badia 4833:17:03, 4 November 2021 (UTC) 4803:17:06, 1 November 2022 (UTC) 4788:14:35, 1 November 2022 (UTC) 4738:13:40, 1 November 2022 (UTC) 4658:08:36, 17 October 2020 (UTC) 4571:16:08, 19 January 2019 (UTC) 4464:21:28, 18 January 2019 (UTC) 4446:00:00, 18 January 2019 (UTC) 4428:01:58, 16 January 2019 (UTC) 4397:11:30, 12 January 2019 (UTC) 4351:01:58, 16 January 2019 (UTC) 4122:18:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC) 3463:, within larger attempts of 3430:, had been edited by me to: 3378:19:28, 1 December 2012 (UTC) 3150:. See earlier discussions.-- 2140:line on is article states: " 1306:when there is no common name 1302:WP:NCGN#Multiple local names 1295:WP:NCGN#Multiple local names 801:widely accepted English name 461:the southern part, and with 299:Flora del Tirolo meridionale 4600:Alto Adige (disambiguation) 4099:15:18, 29 August 2017 (UTC) 3849:15:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC) 3833:23:21, 13 August 2015 (UTC) 3539:c) I don't see any kind of 3353:02:01, 4 October 2012 (UTC) 3335:16:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC) 3321:14:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC) 2921:14:44, 30 August 2011 (UTC) 2896:21:34, 28 August 2011 (UTC) 2882:10:22, 20 August 2011 (UTC) 2868:07:20, 20 August 2011 (UTC) 2852:00:03, 20 August 2011 (UTC) 2798:03:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC) 4904: 4520:(or its German equivalent 4361:I started a discussion at 4304:06:16, 19 April 2018 (UTC) 4281:14:08, 18 April 2018 (UTC) 4215:(last update: 5 June 2024) 4131:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 4085:21:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC) 4055:18:26, 14 March 2017 (UTC) 4029:02:14, 14 March 2017 (UTC) 3958:17:36, 13 March 2017 (UTC) 3927:03:23, 13 March 2017 (UTC) 2822:17:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC) 2774:00:31, 2 August 2011 (UTC) 2742:official name in Italian. 1657:Notabene per la traduzione 975:16:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 942:16:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 924:14:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 909:14:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 882:13:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 867:13:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 853:13:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 837:13:11, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 817:12:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 786:10:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 760:2,160 for Italian Ortisei 743:09:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 684:08:02, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 654:01:15, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 640:22:32, 26 April 2011 (UTC) 617:21:31, 26 April 2011 (UTC) 590:21:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC) 567:20:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC) 552:20:02, 26 April 2011 (UTC) 271:Welschtiroler Schützenbund 241:with "i" is on a par with 190:article traffic statistics 108:, the provincial assembly 3710:23:24, 26 June 2013 (UTC) 3668:20:36, 22 June 2013 (UTC) 3646:11:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC) 3619:14:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC) 3583:05:46, 15 July 2014 (UTC) 3565:17:07, 14 July 2014 (UTC) 3486:13:38, 14 July 2014 (UTC) 3306:12:46, 12 June 2012 (UTC) 3243:Province of Bolzano/Bozen 3062:) 14:41, 8 September 2011 2752:14:19, 30 July 2011 (UTC) 2737:00:02, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 2705:21:09, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 2690:12:29, 23 July 2011 (UTC) 2671:17:19, 21 July 2011 (UTC) 2638:14:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC) 2623:06:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC) 2601:23:17, 20 July 2011 (UTC) 2535:11:28, 20 July 2011 (UTC) 2511:07:01, 20 July 2011 (UTC) 2483:17:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC) 2455:14:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC) 2435:20:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC) 2406:11:04, 16 July 2011 (UTC) 2367:10:40, 16 July 2011 (UTC) 2353:22:33, 13 July 2011 (UTC) 2336:21:47, 13 July 2011 (UTC) 2282:19:59, 13 July 2011 (UTC) 1633:Il Giardino del Sudtirolo 220:Province of Bolzano-Bozen 210:for Province of Bolzano, 142:is somtimes translatd as 4704:01:06, 18 May 2021 (UTC) 4642:18:51, 4 July 2020 (UTC) 4612:16:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC) 4452:big red inoformation box 4377:06:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC) 3817:13:34, 6 July 2013 (UTC) 3789:15:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC) 3767:01:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC) 3748:23:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC) 3732:05:57, 5 July 2013 (UTC) 3116:title page are incorrect 2725:Official and local usage 2215:10:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC) 2199:20:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC) 2162:18:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC) 2131:15:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC) 2098:19:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC) 2075:08:43, 6 July 2011 (UTC) 2044:18:55, 4 July 2011 (UTC) 2003:17:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC) 1989:16:12, 4 July 2011 (UTC) 1958:14:06, 4 July 2011 (UTC) 1943:is about to secede from 1936:12:23, 4 July 2011 (UTC) 1918:09:25, 4 July 2011 (UTC) 1901:22:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC) 1873:19:14, 6 June 2011 (UTC) 1855:19:03, 6 June 2011 (UTC) 1840:17:29, 6 June 2011 (UTC) 1823:15:26, 4 June 2011 (UTC) 1798:18:59, 6 June 2011 (UTC) 1776:10:20, 4 June 2011 (UTC) 1760:09:30, 4 June 2011 (UTC) 1723:19:54, 3 June 2011 (UTC) 1712:10:03, 3 June 2011 (UTC) 1684:10:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC) 1669:18:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC) 1646:18:34, 2 June 2011 (UTC) 1608:23:40, 31 May 2011 (UTC) 1593:15:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC) 1566:13:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC) 1546:20:30, 23 May 2011 (UTC) 1531:10:33, 21 May 2011 (UTC) 1519:No, not the Ladin names. 1495:19:50, 20 May 2011 (UTC) 1481:19:41, 20 May 2011 (UTC) 1464:19:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC) 1449:18:46, 20 May 2011 (UTC) 1424:18:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC) 1397:01:40, 20 May 2011 (UTC) 1383:21:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC) 1347:20:45, 19 May 2011 (UTC) 1318:23:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC) 1283:22:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC) 1265:15:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC) 1246:11:26, 18 May 2011 (UTC) 1228:22:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC) 1213:14:36, 17 May 2011 (UTC) 1193:22:57, 13 May 2011 (UTC) 1171:09:49, 14 May 2011 (UTC) 1152:23:36, 13 May 2011 (UTC) 1106:22:29, 13 May 2011 (UTC) 1086:21:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC) 1064:18:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC) 1045:17:50, 12 May 2011 (UTC) 1024:13:51, 12 May 2011 (UTC) 1005:01:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC) 532:11:40, 27 May 2011 (UTC) 506:09:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC) 483:14:16, 26 May 2011 (UTC) 449:I always heard the term 443:00:32, 26 May 2011 (UTC) 424:21:19, 25 May 2011 (UTC) 410:20:49, 25 May 2011 (UTC) 388:19:21, 25 May 2011 (UTC) 354:11:03, 25 May 2011 (UTC) 340:15:50, 24 May 2011 (UTC) 308:15:30, 24 May 2011 (UTC) 255:09:13, 28 May 2011 (UTC) 232:18:21, 27 May 2011 (UTC) 182:20:31, 23 May 2011 (UTC) 168:14:32, 21 May 2011 (UTC) 133:12:27, 21 May 2011 (UTC) 4874:Then let's wait... :-) 4766:), the second as well ( 4127:External links modified 3167:Alto Adige (Napoleonic) 3086:Move request regarding 990:18:20, 3 May 2011 (UTC) 4709:Tyroleans and Tyrolese 4041:Please take note that 3855:About the Italian name 3534:a simple Google search 3409:inventing the phrase: 3046:ALTO ADIGE/SOUTH TYROL 2966:should be fine now. -- 2243:) 18:45, 13 July 2011 428:If we want to include 237:Very interesting. And 93:I see that there is a 4692:Coat of arms of Tyrol 4686:Link for Coat of Arms 4367:Please have a say! -- 3803:instead of 'Roma and 3290:The results are out: 1304:advice only kicks in 436:as the only source? I 376:Trento as its capital 42:of past discussions. 4756:the Ngram you posted 4696:Theodore Christopher 4196:regular verification 3874:Provincia di Bolzano 3513:Is that an opinion? 1977:last survey on Italy 1429:366 hits for Ortisei 1032:Corvara, South Tyrol 793:380 hits for Ortisei 394:"Tirolo meridionale" 214:for South Tirol and 4724:. And according to 4669:university workshop 4526:province of Bolzano 4186:After February 2018 3906:12th november 1866 3442:. Or anything else. 3415:Italian irredentism 3040:Neutrality disputed 2034:is used as well? -- 1408:Most of the entries 287:Tirolis meridonalis 275:Tirolis meridonalis 4667:Dear users, for a 4382:Names (once again) 4240:InternetArchiveBot 4191:InternetArchiveBot 1736:unreliable sources 659:Naming conventions 451:Tirolo meridionale 430:Tirolo meridionale 368:Tirolo meridionale 328:Tirolo meridionale 313:Well, there is no 261:Tirolo meridionale 88:South Tyrol -: --> 4644: 4632:comment added by 4333: 4321:comment added by 4216: 3208: 3191:comment added by 3184:does not exist) 3054:comment added by 2911:comment added by 2758:second subsection 2338: 2320:128 English books 2314: 2245: 2231:comment added by 2013:uses South Tyrol 1891:comment added by 1139: 805:St Ulrich/Ortisei 297:(see for example 85: 84: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4895: 4768:Baillie-Grohmann 4749: 4719: 4648:"Deutschland"!-- 4508:For the record: 4250: 4241: 4214: 4213: 4192: 3946:High Middle Ages 3457:was changed to: 3271: 3207: 3185: 3063: 2923: 2317: 2286: 2257:Napoleon himself 2244: 2225: 1955: 1903: 1820: 1810:= Del Sud Tirolo 1720: 1643: 1133: 440: 305: 165: 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 18:Talk:South Tyrol 4903: 4902: 4898: 4897: 4896: 4894: 4893: 4892: 4813: 4743: 4713: 4711: 4688: 4665: 4624: 4384: 4359: 4312: 4259: 4257:naming and head 4244: 4239: 4207: 4200:have permission 4190: 4144:this simple FaQ 4129: 3938:County of Tyrol 3897: 3857: 3595: 3553:Rolf Steininger 3455:of South Tyrol. 3394:County of Tyrol 3385: 3365: 3288: 3269: 3186: 3118: 3091: 3049: 3042: 2986: 2906: 2829: 2810:Talk:Haut-Adige 2805: 2803:Input requested 2711:citation needed 2553:County of Tyrol 2519:reliable source 2497:and a map here 2377: 2226: 2183:the early 1800s 2179:the early 1800s 2106: 2054: 2010:The Independent 1953: 1924:New South Wales 1886: 1883: 1818: 1718: 1641: 1622: 1329:Take a look to 724:, even Urtijëi/ 716:, La Val/La Val 539: 513: 438: 303: 263: 192: 163: 95:citation needed 91: 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4901: 4899: 4891: 4890: 4889: 4888: 4887: 4886: 4851: 4850: 4812: 4809: 4808: 4807: 4806: 4805: 4710: 4707: 4687: 4684: 4664: 4661: 4634:151.30.200.163 4623: 4620: 4619: 4618: 4617: 4616: 4615: 4614: 4574: 4573: 4557: 4556: 4555: 4554: 4553: 4552: 4551: 4550: 4549: 4548: 4547: 4546: 4545: 4544: 4530: 4515: 4491: 4485: 4479: 4473: 4468:I took a look 4383: 4380: 4366: 4358: 4355: 4354: 4353: 4323:149.254.184.88 4311: 4308: 4307: 4306: 4258: 4255: 4234: 4233: 4226: 4179: 4178: 4170:Added archive 4168: 4160:Added archive 4158: 4150:Added archive 4128: 4125: 4110: 4109: 4108: 4107: 4106: 4105: 4104: 4103: 4102: 4101: 4062: 4061: 4060: 4059: 4058: 4057: 4034: 4033: 4032: 4031: 4014: 4013: 4012: 4011: 4004: 4003: 4002: 4001: 3994: 3993: 3992: 3991: 3984: 3983: 3982: 3981: 3974: 3973: 3972: 3971: 3963: 3961: 3960: 3912: 3896: 3893: 3856: 3853: 3852: 3851: 3836: 3835: 3796: 3795: 3794: 3793: 3792: 3791: 3772: 3771: 3770: 3769: 3751: 3750: 3719: 3718: 3717: 3716: 3715: 3714: 3713: 3712: 3675: 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3232: 3228: 3227:WP:COMMONNAME 3224: 3222: 3218: 3214: 3210: 3209: 3206: 3202: 3198: 3194: 3190: 3182: 3181: 3180: 3176: 3172: 3168: 3163: 3161: 3157: 3153: 3149: 3148:WP:COMMONNAME 3145: 3141: 3137: 3134: 3133: 3132: 3131: 3127: 3123: 3115: 3113: 3112: 3108: 3104: 3100: 3096: 3089: 3085: 3081: 3077: 3073: 3069: 3066: 3065: 3064: 3061: 3057: 3056:68.208.127.65 3053: 3047: 3039: 3032: 3028: 3025:Thank you! -- 3024: 3023: 3022: 3018: 3014: 3009: 3008: 3007: 3006: 3002: 2998: 2994: 2990: 2983: 2977: 2973: 2969: 2965: 2962: 2961: 2960: 2959: 2956: 2952: 2948: 2943: 2942: 2941: 2940: 2936: 2932: 2928: 2924: 2922: 2918: 2914: 2913:96.46.249.211 2910: 2897: 2893: 2889: 2885: 2884: 2883: 2879: 2875: 2871: 2870: 2869: 2865: 2861: 2856: 2855: 2854: 2853: 2849: 2845: 2837: 2834: 2833: 2832: 2826: 2824: 2823: 2819: 2815: 2811: 2802: 2800: 2799: 2795: 2791: 2775: 2771: 2767: 2763: 2759: 2755: 2754: 2753: 2749: 2745: 2740: 2739: 2738: 2734: 2730: 2726: 2722: 2719: 2715: 2712: 2708: 2707: 2706: 2702: 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My reason: 2111: 2103: 2099: 2095: 2091: 2087: 2083: 2079: 2078: 2077: 2076: 2072: 2068: 2064: 2060: 2057: 2051: 2045: 2041: 2037: 2033: 2029: 2025: 2021: 2019: 2017: 2015: 2012: 2011: 2006: 2004: 2000: 1996: 1992: 1991: 1990: 1986: 1982: 1978: 1974: 1973: 1972:The Economist 1967: 1966: 1959: 1956: 1950: 1949:West Virginia 1946: 1942: 1939: 1938: 1937: 1933: 1929: 1925: 1921: 1920: 1919: 1915: 1911: 1906: 1905: 1904: 1902: 1898: 1894: 1890: 1880: 1874: 1870: 1866: 1862: 1858: 1857: 1856: 1852: 1848: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1841: 1837: 1833: 1829: 1825: 1824: 1821: 1815: 1811: 1809: 1799: 1795: 1791: 1787: 1782: 1779: 1778: 1777: 1773: 1769: 1764: 1763: 1762: 1761: 1757: 1753: 1749: 1745: 1741: 1737: 1733: 1724: 1721: 1715: 1714: 1713: 1709: 1705: 1701: 1697: 1693: 1689: 1685: 1681: 1677: 1672: 1671: 1670: 1666: 1662: 1658: 1654: 1650: 1649: 1648: 1647: 1644: 1638: 1634: 1630: 1627: 1619: 1609: 1605: 1601: 1596: 1595: 1594: 1590: 1586: 1582: 1578: 1574: 1569: 1568: 1567: 1563: 1559: 1555: 1547: 1543: 1539: 1534: 1533: 1532: 1528: 1524: 1520: 1516: 1512: 1508: 1504: 1502: 1498: 1497: 1496: 1492: 1488: 1484: 1483: 1482: 1478: 1474: 1469: 1465: 1461: 1457: 1452: 1451: 1450: 1446: 1442: 1438: 1434: 1430: 1427: 1426: 1425: 1421: 1417: 1413: 1409: 1404: 1398: 1394: 1390: 1386: 1385: 1384: 1380: 1376: 1372: 1370: 1366: 1364: 1362: 1358: 1356: 1354: 1353: 1350: 1348: 1344: 1340: 1336: 1332: 1328: 1327: 1320: 1319: 1315: 1311: 1307: 1303: 1298: 1296: 1292: 1291:WP:COMMONNAME 1286: 1285: 1284: 1280: 1276: 1272: 1271: 1270: 1269: 1266: 1262: 1258: 1254: 1250: 1249: 1248: 1247: 1243: 1239: 1229: 1225: 1221: 1216: 1215: 1214: 1210: 1206: 1201: 1197: 1196: 1195: 1194: 1190: 1186: 1183: 1172: 1168: 1164: 1160: 1156: 1155: 1154: 1153: 1149: 1145: 1140: 1137: 1136:WP:COMMONNAME 1132:in this case. 1131: 1130:WP:COMMONNAME 1125: 1121: 1117: 1116:WP:COMMONNAME 1113: 1112:WP:COMMONNAME 1109: 1108: 1107: 1103: 1099: 1094: 1093:WP:COMMONNAME 1091:In fact, the 1090: 1089: 1088: 1087: 1083: 1079: 1073: 1065: 1061: 1057: 1053: 1052:WP:NCGN#Italy 1048: 1047: 1046: 1042: 1038: 1033: 1030:should be at 1028: 1027: 1026: 1025: 1021: 1017: 1012: 1006: 1002: 998: 994: 993: 992: 991: 987: 983: 977: 976: 972: 968: 967:Gun Powder Ma 964: 960: 943: 939: 935: 931: 927: 926: 925: 921: 917: 912: 911: 910: 906: 902: 897: 896: 895: 894: 893: 892: 891: 890: 883: 879: 875: 870: 869: 868: 864: 860: 856: 855: 854: 850: 846: 841: 840: 839: 838: 834: 830: 826: 818: 814: 810: 806: 802: 798: 794: 790: 789: 788: 787: 783: 779: 772: 769: 767: 764: 762: 759: 757: 754: 753: 752: 750: 745: 744: 740: 736: 731: 727: 723: 719: 715: 708: 704: 700: 695: 691: 685: 681: 677: 672: 668: 664: 660: 657: 656: 655: 651: 647: 643: 642: 641: 637: 633: 629: 625: 621: 620: 619: 618: 614: 610: 605: 599: 591: 587: 583: 579: 575: 570: 569: 568: 564: 560: 556: 555: 554: 553: 549: 545: 536: 534: 533: 529: 525: 521: 517: 510: 508: 507: 503: 499: 484: 480: 476: 472: 468: 464: 460: 456: 452: 448: 444: 441: 435: 431: 427: 426: 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