716:"The study favors children being raised by both biological parents. Clearly that doesn't include gay couples, as well as single parents and step-parents." What you say is "clearly" is something that the research brief specifically denies as an application. If there are studies that say something about gay parenting, then yes, we should use them. But saying that Focus claims a study represents something when the study itself states differently is a separate question; it can be used to cover what the discussion is, but when it goes to the science, we cannot simply point out the citation of a study without pointing out that it is being mis-cited. There's a difference between documenting same-sex marriage and documenting the battle over same-sex marriage. -
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specifically denies as an application." In the Child Trends pdf doc itself? I didn't see anything about same-sex marriage in there at all. Only that studies favored both biological parents. If studies show that kids do better with both biological parents, how is that not relevent? Anyway, this wasn't my synthesis, I saw it somewhere. I thought it was
Blankhorn. Yes David, I agree Focus is not the place to get data from (and I think you guys know me well enough that I wouldn't think it was), that should come from journals, etc. But this is clearly a controversial topic (rightly or wrongly so) and this controversy should be mentioned.
1609:. I removed a reference to primary research that was outdated, had a small sample, didn't include gay male couples, and lacked a citation. There are lots of good secondary sources to look to here, like the APA, AAP, etc. If we're going to use primary sources let's use the most recent ones with the best datasets. I also think that there's too much material discussing parenting in this article, because that's covered thoroughly in LGBT Parenting. The section on divorce could be expanded, and maybe we could add research on other family topics unrelated to parenting. Thoughts?
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performance, involvement in or avoidance of high-risk behaviors and crime, and emotional and psychological health", appears to be undocumented here; none of the findable cites indicate that Focus said anything of the kind. And if it did, then the relevant studies to include would be the studies the Focus cited. Then we've got problems like the use of the
Fatherneed source; Fatherneed is not a study, and as with the ChildTrends source, the author distanced the use of his statements from making statements about same-sex couples. --
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like what that one opponent of same-sex marriage was talking about when he wasn't talking about same-sex marriage, and these studies actually say nothing about same-sex marriage", is that it? Sorry, no the fact that one SSM opponent once used the word "study" in some other discussion does not open the door for dumping various irrelevant references into the article. The King source does not serve this sentence, and with that gone, the central statement of the sentence is without support. Most of the paragraph
535:?) One is the concern that homosexual marriage will lead to more children being raised by homosexual couples, coupled with the concern over whether children raised by homosexual couples have lesser outcomes. The other is the concern that those children who are being raised by homosexual couples are left in a lesser position (in terms of benefits and stability) if the couple is not allowed a marriage that they would otherwise choose. -
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WIKI another institution taken over by the gay community, how many is that now? Can i ask a member of the gay community to answer a question? - which is, what do you get when you cross a gay with a lesbian? or a lesbian with hermaphrodite? or 2 paedophiles? hmmmm, I'm sure kids across the world would
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Case No. S147999 in the
Supreme Court of the State of California, In re Marriage Cases Judicial Council Coordination Proceeding No. 4365, Application for leave to file brief amici curiae in support of the parties challenging the marriage exclusion, and brief amici curiae of the American Psychological
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So what it boils down to is not "Opponents of same-sex marriage point to academic studies", but "one opponent of same-sex marriage, when not discussing same-sex marriage, says that there are studies, but doesn't mention them, but here are a list of studies and essays that say things that are kind of
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Yes - he only posted it here after I noted elsewhere that if it were substantial and sourced, it would be more appropriate over here. Which I did merely in the interest of being technically correct; I have no expectation that this would ever amount to anything substantial. We haven't even gotten the
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Come to think of it, we have more problems here than that. The central claim of the sentence, " Focus on the Family points to academic studies which state that children raised with both parents, as opposed to children raised by single mothers, increase students' cognitive and verbal skills, academic
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Does the source your mentioning (and I'm not sure which one you're invoking, today is not my day to go into the history of this article to find it) specifically invoke the Child Trends source? If so, then something in that direction might be appropriate, but the latter portion is misleadingly weak.
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I don't see what's wrong with quoting David
Blankenhorn, Institute for American Values or National Fatherhood Initiative (I don't really no much at all about these organizations, but they seem quotable for this). Also, we are reporting here. Why no Focus on the Family? I don't like them personally,
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It's an interesting point, because the basis of opposition to same-sex marriage often boils down to opposition to homosexuality itself. I've struggled with trying not to write sections that delve too much into the "homosexuality is bad, thus homosexual marriage is bad" traps that can weigh down an
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I am restoring reverted edits on the grounds that (a) my edits were appropriately sourced; (b) organizations that disagree with same-sex marriage and/or LGBT parenting are appropriate primary sources in regard to disagreement with same-sex marriage and/or LGBT parenting; and (c) the organizations
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Same-Sex marraige and family are two wholly different things. And this is needed especially because of the huge gulf between opinion and reality. being able to be *married* does not necessarily confer the rights to a child. Unlike other cases, where all you need to get a child is the right set of
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Those questioning whether same-sex parents are best for children{citation about
Blankenhorn here} have quoted studies showing children do better with both biological parents{Child Trends source here} although these sources do not deal with the question of gay parenting directly.{cite Child Trends
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The article on Same-Sex parenting already ASSUMES you to have a child, or have one on the way. That page doesnt need to be clutterd up with the legal mess that gay parents go through, thats what THIS article is for. Two very different situations, even if they're related; we shouldnt put anything
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Pawelski, James G., Perrin, Ellen C., Foy, Jane M., Allen, Carole E., Crawford, James E., Del Monte, Mark, Kaufman, Miriam, Klein, Jonathan D., Smith, Karen, Springer, Sarah, Tanner, J. Lane, Vickers, Dennis L. The
Effects of Marriage, Civil Union, and Domestic Partnership Laws on the Health and
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Again, this is not the place to ask for an education in genetics or discuss whether not-yet-conceived people should somehow be given the vote. This is the place to discuss the editing of this article. If you have sourced information, please produce it. Otherwise, there are better fora for your
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It makes a lot of sense if children inheriate gay genes from gay parents. Have children been asked if they want gay genes? NO! Will teenages be asked if they want gay parents? NO! Children have no say in this whole debate which is criminal because they will have to live with the consequences.
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If there is a reference after the word "studies", it means that there has to be real evidence of these studies, not just that Dobson said, "I mean, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of articles and studies in the journals that show that children do best when you have a mother and a father
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But the sources you use are very poor sources on the Child Trends material, which specifically did not specifically study same-sex-headed families, which would on later studies using this language note that lack of applicability ("Our conceptualization has been developed based on studies of
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legitimate studies showing any benifit to having straight biological parents. But if opponents point to a study, even if their argument is BS, doesn't that fall under the category of something we are bound to report? Nat said: "What you say is "clearly" is something that the research brief
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In this context, I rather strongly believe that the source substantiates the paragraph and that even in lieu of that sentence most of the paragraph could stand without it, I am even willing to go out and look for more sources. In any case, I will wait for your reply. -
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Except that very document argues against its own usage: "Our conceptualization has been developed based on studies of heterosexual couples and is, we think, appropriate for these couples; but we do not know whether it would be found appropriate for same-sex couples." --
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Erm, what? Nope it isn't, you obviously don't like homosexuals from your comment, but this is just a neutral encyclopedia article on the subject. And I'm sure that no one understands your question enough to answer it, as it appears to not make much sense. Best regards,
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adjusted than straight ones. I would want to look at the studies they cite, figure out whether they are advocacy studies or independent studies, and present the information if it was use-able (i.e. non-fringe-y) directly from the source. That seems reasonable, no?
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If opponents of same-sex marriage are citing a study to say straight parents are better than gay ones, but that study's authors specifically state that their study should not be used to evaluate same-sex couples, then that needs to be stated explicitly.
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Association, California
Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, National Association of Social Workers, and National Association of Social Workers, California Chapter in support of the parties challenging the marriage exclusion
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Also, I feel that there is significant undue weight in the first paragraph of the body. The entire paragraph is about opponents of same-sex marriage in an article about "same-sex marriage and the family". I haven't put an ugly tag on it however.
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popular, like them or not. Same-sex marriage and children is definately a controversial topic, whether it should be or not. Please don't make me stake out the middle ground constantly guys (I don't like playing devil's advocate either for that
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Oh yeah. As for the Child Trends study, it has been quoted by opponent of gay couples raising children. The study favors children being raised by both biological parents. Clearly that doesn't include gay couples, as well as single parents and
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I don't think the source is being used to say "James Dobson says he read these studies", I think it is being used to say opponents of same-sex marriages have turned to studies, like these ones, to form and then back their opinions. -
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As I quoted above: "Our conceptualization has been developed based on studies of heterosexual couples and is, we think, appropriate for these couples; but we do not know whether it would be found appropriate for same-sex couples." --
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when they aren't the ones conducting the research, but repeating it? Using advocacy groups as sources is discouraged because they don't represent the 'middle ground' - I would also say the same thing if someone was proposing using
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providing role modeling for those kids and who are committed to each other.". It is the journal articles that must be cited, not a rush transcript of something someone who wasn't even sure of how many such studies existed said.
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http://web.archive.org/web/20090523004739/http://www.svgla.org:80/index.php?module=documents&JAS_DocumentManager_op=downloadFile&JAS_File_id=5&2f8d38d14523aa8f4042065cde1a5216=964e204e9824d505541efa48eb2208b5
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heterosexual couples and is, we think, appropriate for these couples; but we do not know whether it would be found appropriate for same-sex couples.") and which has since - and before these articles were written -
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Nat said: "What you say is "clearly" is something that the research brief specifically denies as an application." In the Child Trends pdf doc itself? I didn't see anything about same-sex marriage in there at
1448:. The fact that Southern Poverty Law Center labeled FRC as a hate group is ridiculous, but I guess it makes some folks happy by giving them a basis to purge the encyclopedia of anything they disagree with.
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Elizabeth Short, Damien W. Riggs, Amaryll
Perlesz, Rhonda Brown, Graeme Kane: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) Parented Families - A Literature Review prepared for The Australian Psychological
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It's not that they happen not to mention gay couples, they do to cast doubt on applying the study to them, so "although these studies specifically cast doubt on their applicability to same-sex couples." -
584:"In contradiction with the results of scientific research and the consensus of all the major professional organizations with expertise in child welfare supporting of gay and lesbian parental rights"
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I'm okay with this article existing. But as it stands, most of the info is outdated (other than the AAP statement from last year I just added), and nearly all of it feels like a rehash of
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and similar articles. "Same-sex marriage and the family" is an incredibly vague title, and I really can't see anything in this short article that couldn't be reasonably kept elsewhere.
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To expand, Same-sex marriage and the family is about political debates, where LGBT parenting is about LGBT families and should offer more detail on that such as demographics, etc...
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neither actually cites any of the specific studies listed, nor is Dobson even claiming to use those studies in objection to same-sex marriage. He is using them to speak against gay
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http://www.svgla.org/index.php?module=documents&JAS_DocumentManager_op=downloadFile&JAS_File_id=5&2f8d38d14523aa8f4042065cde1a5216=964e204e9824d505541efa48eb2208b5
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I share these views, too. Moreover, LGBT Parenting article was selected as
Knowledge (XXG) 0.8 article and there is no reason to lessen its importance by merging. --
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They have no say in whether they're nearsighted, either. Or if they have dwarfism or down's syndrome, or the unwillingness to create a registered user account. :) ←
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Dividing up by country makes sense when dealing with legal issues; it makes less sense when dealing with family structure studies. May need to think about that. -
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And a growing body of research indicates that children thrive best when raised by both biological married parents, as long as the marriage is not high-conflict.
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This overly detailed an d NPOV text was added to the parent article again. It is now cited, so could have something to be salvaged for here.
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article be merged into this article. The two articles have significant overlap, and there is unnecessary duplication of content. Thoughts?
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The Larry King source does not support the sentence that it was attempting to be used in support of regarding the citation of studies. The
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It's well known fact about genetic inheritance and yet this article does not cover this important aspect very well at all. Why is this?
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I'll take it a step further. Let's delete this. It's not an encyclopedia article. It's more of a magazine feature's infobox.
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organs, the issues here talk about the specific challenges of getting married and having a child with a member of the same gender.
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article. Nevertheless, it's an important foundational principle that can't be overlooked entirely (in my haphazard creation of
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to "children fare best when they are reared in a two-parent family headed by their married, biological or adoptive parents". --
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And there are already bunch of religious info, giving additional space to NARTH, which is a fringe organization, is violating
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Phoenix is quite right: parenting is independent of marriage, so the articles are on different, although related, subjects.
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1084:-inspired joke about a gayby, but I can't seem to make any that come to mind actually relevant to the discussion. --
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It could read like this then (if I'm not getting my info mixed up, I think it was
Balnkenhorn but I'm not certain):
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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I think I agree that the article should be organized along sociological themes instead of national ones. --
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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like to know the answer to those questions. Or will this be DELETED again! Freedom of speech!? HA!
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Adding a quick note for my own future usage: the previous discussion on Fatherneed as a source is
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is the term we want, as this article is not about a debate but about a situation; perhaps
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Marriage of Same-Sex Couples – 2006 Position Statement Canadian Psychological Association
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I'm seeing two primary sections for arguments concerning children (and I'm not sure that
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Nat raises good points, and as long as they aren't fringe, we shouldn't be citing to
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Legal Recognition of Same-Sex Relationships in the United States by Gregory M. Herek
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but they are a voice in the public discourse and are not a fringe view, as they
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you can see I left in a lof the 'homosexuality is bad' basis in the opening). --
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No, parenting is independent of marriage, they are not necessarily correlated.
664:(those are my photos on the article :-), but to the studies that they cite. --
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It's a controversial topic. This needs to be documented here. Maybe there
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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That IP has posted the same ignorant nonsense in the talk page for the
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One reason possibly being that a same-sex marriage cannot procreate. →
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http://www.psychology.org.au/Assets/Files/LGBT-Families-Lit-Review.pdf
588:(Adding to Yobmods sources above)This one might make for some balance:
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What "well known fact" is that? If you have something relevant with
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referred to as fringe or hate groups by another editor are neither.
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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about Earth in an article about the Sun for just the same reason.
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been left intact; it's that one sentence which has gone away. --
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Also, FRC as a source is unacceptable, since it is a hate group
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cited in Cooper & Cates, 2006, p. 36; citation available on
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http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/349
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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59:LGBT studies
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1686:Sourcecheck
1587:Nat Gertler
1403:Nat Gertler
1395:Nat Gertler
1280:Nat Gertler
1230:Nat Gertler
1192:Nat Gertler
1157:—Preceding
1111:—Preceding
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1021:Nat Gertler
995:—Preceding
820:Nat Gertler
787:Nat Gertler
718:Nat Gertler
646:Nat Gertler
626:Nat Gertler
611:Nat Gertler
537:Nat Gertler
497:Nat Gertler
478:its history
193:legal field
1767:Categories
1577:Once your
1041:article. →
966:October 4,
886:Pediatrics
872:References
180:Law portal
110:discussion
1739:this tool
1732:this tool
1579:WP:SPEEDY
1545:Destinero
1261:Schrandit
1246:Schrandit
1092:Shankbone
841:Shankbone
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672:Shankbone
562:Shankbone
529:arguments
518:Shankbone
1745:Cheers.—
1643:cbignore
1535:Flaherty
1446:WP:UNDUE
1424:WP:UNDUE
1299:Awickert
1226:adoption
1159:unsigned
1125:contribs
1113:unsigned
997:unsigned
993:Grant.
687:matter).
533:concerns
454:deletion
303:Politics
294:politics
250:Politics
1755::Online
1672:checked
1637:my edit
1513:Phoenix
1495:Phoenix
1430:Phoenix
1181:carrots
1073:carrots
1046:carrots
990:Thanks
936:Society
419:on the
330:on the
225:on the
30:B-class
1680:failed
1651:nobots
805:Ragazz
768:Ragazz
763:are no
741:better
704:Ragazz
689:Ragazz
593:Ragazz
470:merged
36:scale.
1530:Dylan
1087:David
1086:: -->
1082:Brüno
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835:: -->
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746:: -->
667:David
666:: -->
557:David
556:: -->
513:David
512:: -->
472:into
466:merge
102:LGBTQ
1676:true
1615:talk
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482:here
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1690:).
1678:or
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411:Mid
322:Mid
217:Low
198:Law
149:Law
1769::
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Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
