2011:
validity of a false premise, and then force others to accept your dubious conclusions based on your sole assumption that your premise is true. What we do know, according to
Dumbledore, is that Snape abandoned Voldemort at great cost to himself, probably right after Voldemort attempted to kill Harry and was defeated. After that, Dumbledore placed his unwavering faith and trust in Snape as a full member of the Order of the Phoenix, and maintained a long trusting relationship with him. Whether Snape betrayed Dumbledore or not in the end is debatable and TBA in Book 7. All we know is that he ran off with the Death Eaters after the raid on Hogwarts - everyone assumes for evil purposes. The only people that Snape implied any sort of "loyalty" to Voldemort are during conversations with Death Eaters, which is at least a smart move for a double or triple agent as it were. Now perhaps there is canonical cause to believe that Snape may be a traitor - betraying Voldemort's "trust" - but not necessarily Dumbledore's trust, whichever side he was "spying" for and whether he was a "traitor" to one side or the other. Please read the artical on
1978:- and this is why he was allowed to teach students at Hogwarts for so many years, even after arguably suspicious happenings involving Snape in each year. If Snape is "now" working on behalf of Voldemort and the Death Eaters, and not as a double-agent (or triple) for Dumbledore, then he, by definition, betrayed Dumbledore's trust. Nevertheless, until Book 7 is published, we can only speculate about Snape's "true" loyalties and motivations, and only state the fact that he ran off with Malfoy and the Death Eaters after the raid on Hogwarts. I think their is just as much reason to believe he is STILL working on Dumbledore's behalf (eg: protecting Malfoy from harm, clearing a path for Harry to get to Voldemort, etc.), as there is reason to believe he has switched sides or whatever now that Dumbledore is dead. Again, we won't know for sure until the next book is published, and I think it is speculation and possibly incorrect to claim one side of the argument or the other is "true" and "encyclopedic". Just my thoughts on the matter. --
1315:(unless everyone's misinterpreted the books). It is true to say that in canon thus far, Snape has gone over to the Death Eaters. It is also true to say that practically everyone has set out their own stall regarding what was going on, meaning that any attempt to say, "Betrayed Dumbledore and is evil" will lead to massive amounts of conflict. It is far better to simply stick with what everyone has agreed, reluctantly or otherwise - i.e., he is a double agent, and we don't know his true loyalties. He has betrayed one of the two sides by spying on it, but we don't know which side it is (he is still a traitor, even if he betrayed the bad guys. I always found it rather unfair that Edmund was supposed to be punished for doing the right thing as well as the wrong thing, but that doesn't stop the term being applied). Anything more, for either side, will cause trouble.
1709:
chance to consider the circumstances. Strictly, we do not know whether half an hour later they had privately reconsidered their first reactions. There is an enormous difficulty when throwing around charges of OR in something like this, because where exactly does it stop? It is my interpretation that the book is about Harry Potter, but maybe this is OR based upon my own dyslexic mis-reading of Larry Rotter. Probably not, but I hope you get the point. What is plainly stated for one person may only be an OR deduction to another. In this scene, my own understanding of the simple text, is that while it strives to give the appearance that everyone believes snape a villain, actually it does not say that. The text does not definitively say that, so I would not report here that it does.
1371:
traitor, always a traitor'). But that doesn't change the actual meaning of the word, which means to simply betray something or someone (I got into a heated argument about a month ago stemming from confusion between the colloquial meaning of 'inbred' and the actual meaning). It does add information, and doesn't create a false impression - people will read it as according to their views. Also, the loyalty status in the infobox shouldn't be changed anyway. And, as I said, in such issues, the decision needs to be made according to consensus and discussion - which is the whole point of this. Nobody should, or will, be adding/removing any fictional traitor labels unless it is agreed here. So you don't need to worry there.
239:
phrased ambiguously enough to allow an interpretation of a year either way - 34 or 37" - I think "35 or 36" quite unambiguously means 35 or 36, and not 34 to 37. I'm just saying that "birth year c. 1958" is by no means a "proven fact", and that it was my understanding that
Knowledge (XXG) articles are not meant to monopolize one particular interpretation while it is still disputed - I thought in such cases it should be included that there are other views for the benefit of keeping information as encompassing and unbiased as possible, it's what I've come to expect of Knowledge (XXG). But if I was wrong on that, by all means leave it as it is - it's not important enough for me to continue a debate on this. ~mandra
1713:
quite possibly from his schooldays. I am also not the only person to come to this view. I do not believe that this should be stated in the article, even though I believe it is properly includeable within the rules of wiki, because it is a widely held interpretation of the subject. But it would be wholly incorrect to write the article as a simplistic surface interpretation of what is a very complex plot. Rowling has created this complex plot, and we would do it a grave injustice to miss this evident fact. Just avoid giving away the ending yet. This point is intended to be a major plot twist, but as I say it is quite plain from the text if read carefully that it is going to happen.
229:'The Weasley Gang'? In Britain, you'd say that if you meant Fred, George and Lee Jordan. Or Ron and Ginny, and their circle. But, regardless of what you might say in America, there is no way you'd describe the Weasley family as 'The Weasley Gang' without a serious amount of irony. It's hardly likely that Sirius was talking about 'Slytherins Reunited - Meet Past and Present Slytherins!'. The '35 or 36' statement is phrased ambiguously enough to allow an interpretation of a year either way - 34 or 37. As for the rest, that is merely your attempt to use your view of what was going on to contradict canonical statements.
1142:. Reading the text of the sixth book, Snape killed Dumbledore – JKR has confirmed Dumbledore is dead, no way trying to get around that one. Despite the fact that Book 7 may offer an astonishing plot turn that will say he's not a traitor despite the fact that he killed Dumbledore, when you take out all fan speculation (despite this being perhaps the most speculated thing out there), Snape, thought to be on Dumbledore's side, killed Dumbledore; Snape=traitor to Dumbledore. Don't get me wrong, I really want Snape to not be a traitor too, but within the series, Snape is a traitor, at this point in time. --
222:
outside school. One could say Harry was part of "the
Weasley gang" and has met Bill and Charlie even though he was never at school with them. Given Sirius is related to Bellatrix he would could very well have known about that. Actually I find it quite unlikely that Snape at the age of 11 or 12 was already part of a DE gang. I think since a definitive birth date has never been officially given and it's still a matter of debate among fans the article should rather give a range of years, say 1958 to1960, than state 1958 as birth year as if that was an undisputed fact. ~mandra
2567:
While it is clear that Snape must have betrayed at least one of
Dumbledore and Voldemort, it is not certain that he has betrayed 'the baddies', in the sense of once having been wholeheartedly on their side, or that he has definitely committed treason against the MoM/wizarding world government. People who spy for their country are not normally regarded as traitors. This is going to remain a don't know until the final story is out, unless the 'fictional traitor' category definitely includes people who do undercover spying work....in which case he does belong already.
1535:, "A person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or reneges on an oath of loyalty and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor ... Traitor may also mean a person who betrays (or is accused of betraying) their own political party, family, friends, ethnic group, religion, social class, or other group to which they may belong..." If he is bright side, he took the people he went to school with, the people who liked and trusted him, and betrayed them, frequently getting them sent to horrible Azkaban or to death.--
842:
did not need a lot added, or at least that no one had found anything important to add. Nor do I think that the section in question was long enough to need splitting into sections, certainly not empty ones! I noticed in fact that rather than adding content when the empty section headings were created, a paragraph was deleted. Perhaps because it didn't fit in the new scheme? I'm afraid it is not helpfull to add sections first, then add content afterwards. Add the content first and then we can see whether further sectioning is justified.
786:(edit conflict) I would think you mean the roles in the series, CS and PA. Snape actually has a mildly important part in at least one of these books (PoA, in his disdain for Sirius), and at least a minor part in CS. The subsections are there only because the section as a whole never existed before, and was put in as placeholders until the text was written, I would guess. I don't really watch this page too closely, so I couldn't tell you, but I think Snape's role in the series is vital to be written about, it just hasn't yet. --
1848:
highly unlikely that he could explain his constant favours to
Dumbledore without explaining. As for triple agent: it means that each protagonist thinks Snape is serving both sides, but truly serves only their own side (so D thinks Snape is a spy for both D and V - but truly loyal only to D; V thinks S is a spy for both V and D - but truly loyal only to V). In effect, he serves three sides - Dumbledore and Voldemort - the secrets of both he has leaked to the other side; and whichever of the two he 'truly' serves.
714:. But the pensieve scene is tagged as his 'worst memory', so maybe his worst ever day at school is not the best to judge how he normally gets on. How was your 'worst ever' day at school? (rhetorical-no answer wanted). I was trying to go over the article for balance, and it occurred to me that the stuff we are reporting may be all that is officially known about Snape in school, but it all comes from his enemies. I was wondering whether this ought to be pointed out more explicitly in the text.
554:, ridiculing his work and giving him frequent and often unjustified detentions and other penalties. He extends some of this hard treatment to Harry's friends and appears to have a strong bias in favour of those in Slytherin, unlike the heads of most of the other Houses. On several occasions, Snape tries to have Harry expelled from the school. Yet in spite of these attempts to sabotage Harry's school career, Snape still saves Harry's life on more than one occasion.
1665:
strictly literal point of view, Snape has abandoned any semblance of loyalty to the Order, Rowling has effectively left the matter in such a state that she could go any way regarding his loyalties without there being any canonical barrier (so, at least, I would judge from even the most cursory trawl through fan sites). Certainly, the majority of editors here appear to be disinclined to accept that
Rowling would definitively settle the issue in the
2322:(To Fbv65edel) You say that "Whether Snape was a spy or not doesn't matter", maybe it doesn't matter you but it "matters" the whole story plot. "Spy" and "traitor" are totally different. If everything like you said above, maybe all the spies in the world are traitors. The work of spy is to gain the trust of the opponent to accomplish his mission. So if Snape works for Voldemort as a spy and he gained trust of Dumbledore is a matter of course.
31:
1961:
loyal, never had the intention to really work for D. He has always been evil, has always been a spy, and always stays on
Voldemort's side from the beginning. A chance like this maybe big or slim, it depends on each person's view. But that sure could be what happens. Think about it. You have no proof to insist that Snape is 100% a traitor. Therefore it's irrational and unreasonable to keep a category which you cannot be certain about.
1705:
friends with them, then Snape belongs in the category without doubt. If however they only include people who are definite baddies and betray the 'good', then it is arguable whether he belongs, depending on the final outcome. What we do know for certain is that we are still awaiting the definitive last word on this, so at present he would not belong in a category for traitors who betray the 'good'.
212:
about together rather than some ongoing fraternity. That is how I would imagine it being used about children in a UK school. Something ad-hoc, rather than a branch of the mafia. As to including a long argument about dates, I think that is better kept on the one page which lists dates and references to them in HP, and each topic page has to make a brief choice and stick with it.
2515:: "A person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or reneges on an oath of loyalty and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor ... Traitor may also mean a person who betrays (or is accused of betraying) their own political party, family, friends, ethnic group, religion, social class, or other group to which they may belong..."
1502:(to Michaelsanders) I understand what you mean, but you should remmember the "Positive" and "negative" meanings of the words. English contains a lot of synonyms but we can't use them in one situation, each word must fit their certain context. "Traitor" is undeniably a negative meaning word, so it will be unfitted if Snape reveals to be in bright side someday.
2365:
Death Eaters, whether they're "good" or "evil", it's still treason. Case two, Snape is loyal to the Death Eaters. We agree that he was a "spy" or whatever we want to call the term for the Death Eaters by associating himself with the Order. In any case, whether he was a spy, or whether he actually switched to the Order, and then switched back, he
1189:
others may think when they look at the word "traitor" talking about Snape, it's obviously misleading. I still don't understand why we must use a word that can cause false reflection for the readers on Wiki. If you guys want to describe Snape's spy job, then "double agent" is already enough for what you mean, no need for "fictional traitor".
766:
the need to add info from those books to fill the empty sections, which would seem to be the next step. These articles only need to contain highlight information selected because it is important for the character. There is absolutely no reason to insert particular sections which are not needed here just because other articles may have them.
1431:
Rowling often makes the possible into the impossible and vice-versa. Sometimes we can't see the surface and guess the depth inside. Every character in the book thinks that Snape is a traitor, which doesn't mean that he MUST BE A TRAITOR or still a TRAITOR. We don't know what will happen, so don't jump to conclusion yet.
1626:, I wasn't trying to predict anything, I was simply adhering to one of our policies, and that says to follow the source the author gives us. According to six books, Snape's not a double agent, his allegiance lies with the Deat Eaters. Perhaps, then the infobox should be amended to state "Death Eaters (as of
352:"Dumbledore told Harry that there was an eavesdropper, but said that the eavesdropper only heard the first half of the prophecy and only reported that portion of it to Voldemort. This conflicts with Trelawney's account to Harry, in which Snape is only discovered after she had delivered the whole prophecy."
2696:
The cat. 'characters with power to poison' isn't simply for people who know how to make basic poisons like Harry, Hermione or other
Hogwarts students. But Snape is exceptionally expert in the field and he truly has the power. I have examined the cat. and Snape isn't any worse than the other fictional
2364:
Look, there are two possible cases. One, Snape is loyal to the Order of the
Phoenix. In this scenario, he was once loyal to the Death Eaters, as we all agree, I think, and switched to be loyal to their enemy, their rival, whatever, the Order of the Phoenix. If this is the case, he is a traitor to the
2272:
Whether Snape was a spy or not doesn't matter – he gained the trust of
Dumbledore. Dumbledore thought he was loyal – whether he was or wasn't – and so did the entire Order of the Phoenix, and Harry, and Hogwarts… Snape was thought to be loyal to Dumbledore, and thought to be loyal to Voldemort. Also,
2005:
1. (to T-dot) If there're some of you out there who have read my above argument and still cannot tell the difference between a spy and a traitor, I'll make it clearer. Imagine a situation in which there're two opposing organizations A and B. (A as Vol and B as Dum). A wants to get B's information, so
1947:
The point of the talk is to discuss and make comments on the matter, not to judge other users for their ideas. Users have the right to enter the discussion. And since I don't feel like it's pointless, you should stop telling me to give up my opinion. I know how to use my time, there's no need for you
1847:
If the main reason for Snape ultimately proving good is 'the love of a good woman', I for one will be very disappointed - there are far better reasons. Also, it seems pretty clear from what Snape said to Bellatrix and Narcissa that Voldemort knows just how much Snape does for Dumbledore - it would be
1759:
The cleanest thing to do is list Snape as being a member of both the Death Eaters and the Order of the Phoenix. Although it's very likely that the OotP revoked his membership during the events of the last couple chapters, I don't think it has been reported. (It's fair to assume, however, that Snape
1468:
He's betrayed his friends and allies. That is absolutely clear from the text. Whether those friends and allies be Voldemort and his Slytherin friends, or Dumbledore and his Hogwarts friends, he's betrayed them. Based on your arguments, we couldn't tag him with anything; it's possible the real Severus
978:
Logically, people either come here because they have heard of Snape and want to know enough to seem knowledgeable without reading the books, or (more likely, I think) they want to know something which is perhaps not obvious amongst the vastness of the whole story. Smothering such points in a big pile
765:
There was an edit comment posted on the article to explain the insertion of empty section headings for information from differnt books, which do not currently contribute anything. I do not see the need to insert many small sections into the article, never mind completely empty ones. I also don't see
745:
We are only told he was friendly with Bella by one of the marauders. None of them was present in the Slytherin common room. I generally take the view that precise explanation is the best, so I have no idea if he was popular, but only note we have a very restricted set of witnesses to what he was, and
522:
There shouldn't be a section entitled "Spoiler". Perhaps we should change the article to have individual sections, or subsections, for each book. This would help with continuity throuhgout the HP articles. Also, there is excess information in the HBP section that should be deleted since there is a
183:
How would Sirius know about any 'fraternities' Snape, or for that matter Bellatrix, was i after graduation? Except, of course, the Death Eaters themselves, which is likely to have been the only 'fraternity' outside school that both took part in (in which case, it would be a tautology to say that they
2686:
I'm happy with fictional double agents, but I have now removed fictional traitors, since I think it is much better covered by 'double agent'. I also removed category 'characters with power to poison'. That cat seems to be for venomous entities which can bite. Harry also has the power to poison, just
1960:
Here's an example: Everyone knows Snape was a Death Eater at the beginning, they thought he had redeemed, but in fact all along the line he has been working in Dum's side as a spy for Vol. In this case you can only use the word 'spy' for him, not traitor. Snape didn't betray Dum as he has never been
1957:
Now get to the matter. Most of you see Snape as a traitor no matter which side he will betray. Fine, let's see your point. You brought up the 100% factual basis to defend that category and mentioned 'We know he can't be loyal to both sides'. Snape sure cannot be loyal to both sides at the same time,
1790:
What do you mean, Dumbledore is one side, Voldemort is one side and OotP is other side? And every side knows about Snape's agent work? I think that Snape is a double agent, and the hypothesis Voldemort doesn't know about his secret loyalty to Dumbledore is absolutely possible. Many speculations have
1664:
From an inflexibly strict point of view, this is the case. However, wikipedia also recognises the need for exceptions - in order to preserve peace, and if enough editors believe it justifiable - to this rule. In this case, I think most, if not all readers of the books would argue that whilst, from a
995:
apparently couldn't do it. The sectioning provides an encylopedic listing of Snape's role throughout the series and presents it in an easy to read fashion. Even if it does "retell" some of the story, it's still useful to not have to read the whole article on the book to find out Snape's role. We
201:
I don't know about that. Taken at face value, the Sep57-Aug58 year is the only ddate that works with everything Rowling has told us. And yes, it is true that one can think of a few excuses for why Rowling didn't mean what she said. That doesn't change the fact that, until she says otherwise, that is
175:
mean that he and Bellatrix attended school at the same time. That is simply one way to interpret it. For example, I could be a member of a fraternity that my father was in. In the same way, Snape could have been part of Bellatrix's "gang" after she graduated. Thus, the supposed accuracy of the birth
2238:
Firstly, your thought 'Snape was once a Death Eater, and then he was a member of the Order of the Phoenix. By doing both, he was loyal to opposing sides' is definitely wrong since there's a high chance that Snape has never been loyal to Dum. (he could be s spy_don't you understand what "spy" means?
2114:
definition specified. Frankly I could not care less whether Snape is listed as a "fictional traitor". I totally ignore those categories unless I am looking for other examples of the article being categorized. I am simply stating that your argument that Snape was "only a spy" and therefore "could
1178:
That's what U think? Wait a minute, that's what Harry or some other characters (whoever) think, isn't it? But I thought we should only post up accurate and definite information, the truth, things that we know for sure, not something thought by someone in some books. U do know about fan speculation,
933:
Why do people want to include a re-telling of the plot of the books when it does not help to explain the character. The division of the articles here was that a description of the plot goes into the 'book' articles, and only snippets which tell us something about a character go into the individuals
912:
I also notice you have taken the links to the individual book articles and made them into the section headings. While I agree the article needs to keep the links to the individual articles, section headings are not supposed to be links. I think this is for technical reasons to do with the fact that
841:
No, not odd. Extraodinarily enough I have in the past being fighting an action to add content to the article, whereas now I seem to be arguing to keep it out. I had no plans to add anything, because I don't see what important info about Snape is missing. Consensus for the last year has been that it
685:
The article says, 'Harry learns that Snape was rather unpopular and isolated in his teens'. Now, I'm not certain about this, but i have the feeling that everything we have learnt about Snape at school has come from James' buddies Sirius or Remus. Since James took every opportunity he could to bully
294:
an anti-hero is still a hero, not a villain, but although he gets to the 'right' ending, he does it in an unorthodox or even 'bad' way. Now, the difficulty here is that we dont know for definite whether Snape is hero or villain, whether or not with the ant- in front of it. But assuming he does turn
211:
The wording of the quote above about Snape really does imply he was at school with the others. I would find it more likely that JKR made a mistake with her sums than that she did not mean they were at school at least partly at the same time. I take Sirius to have used 'gang' to mean a group running
142:
Well since you bring it up, actually no. The books are full of 'obvious' conclusions which turn out to be wrong. One of the nice things about them. We know Snape's writing fits the description, but we don't know if Lily's (or anyone else's) does. Drawing the inference that it must be his because we
123:
We have no information on how he came by it, that it ever belonged to his mother, or even that he used it at school. All we have is an inscription inside it saying it was the property of the HBP. My favourite theory is that it really belonged to Lily. Maybe she gave it to him as a consolation prize
1712:
It is plain to me from a careful reading of the source material, applying the tools of comprehension available to be as a literate homo sapiens, that the most likely way this story will turn out is that Snape will prove to have been a goodie at least from the point the prophecy was understood, but
1669:
book. And so, whilst we all of course accept that by strict interpretation, Snape's loyalties are - at any rate - not to Dumbledore and co., so many of us feel that the issue cannot be written off that simply that it is far simpler to list him as a double agent, which I think most would agree with
1370:
I'm not denying that it doesn't have emotive and moralistic undertones, if you choose to see them. And no, in normal speech, you would describe someone who betrayed the dark side as 'seeing the light', or 'realised the error of his ways', or 'reformed' (or, less flatteringly, 'turncoat' or 'once a
944:
A "retelling" of the books is not necessary, but writing about Snape's role in the books is -- after all, why do people come to look up information on him? As long as minor details aren't in excess, and the important info is the bulk of it, then the article is correct. If it makes sense to combine
776:
The "many small sections" are called sub-sections and they contibute to the navigation of the article and the ease of use for referencing. The section is essentially the same before, now it just has headings in addition. There are many other articles with section of this same size. Feel free to
238:
Of course "the Weasley gang" was meant ironic! As for the rest - I've tried to express my opinion unaggressive and without getting personal, so there's no need antagonizing me by suggesting that "that's my attempt to contradict canonical statements". I don't agree that "the '35 or 36' statement is
221:
I don't see how 1958 does NOT contradict JKR's statement that by GOF time Snape was "35 or 36". To me "was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be death eaters" in no way implies that he was at school with Bellatrix. He could have been at school with younger DE's and met Bella
2654:
No, I can't. They all looked to me to be real people. I also think this categorisation is getting ridiculous. Is snape to be listed as 'fictional cloak wearers', 'fictional people with long hair'? But I think it is a serious mistake to place real and fictitious people in the same category by some
2566:
I hesitate to take part in this, because it really is a matter of the exact definition of the wiki category, and the exact position of Snape. Neither of these seems to be precise. However, the dictionary definition of 'traitor' has a strong bias towards action against ones state\birth allegience.
2188:
of the Order of the Phoenix. By doing both, he was loyal to opposing sides, and since he can be loyal to both, he was a traitor to one. He wasn't just spying on B, if that even was the case, but he created a strong bond with Dumbledore which he may or may not have severed. Actually, one might say
1708:
However, that brings us to the next problem. First it is not clear that all parties in the book believe Snape a traitor at the end of HBP. In the scene towards the end where this is discussed, the conversation is in fact cut off by Magonagall, who changes the subject, before the characters have a
1340:
Just ask friends around U whether it's OK to call sb who betray the bad guys a "traitor"? Are people in history who betray the bad side called "traitor"? etc. It's so unreasonable. If U think he works for Dum or Vol, just call him double or triple agent. Adding that "fictional traitor" is totally
1282:
I was the one who reverted it. I haven't participated in writing or discussing this article, but it's on my watchlist (see username :-), and, the "Allegiance" note in the character infobox indicated to me that there has been discussion on this matter and that consensus has been reached. Knowledge
1223:
The book also support his allegiance to the Death Eaters. And the latest word on Snape is that he's a Death Eater… fleeing Hogwarts with other Death Eaters after killing the leader of the OoP. Up until this point, Snape's loyalty may have resided anywhere. But the most recent actions of Snape are
2373:
whether he was actually a member or not, because he was presumed faithful to the Order – Dumbledore said so countless times in the series. So, Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, or at least he was thought to be, and then he switches back to the Death Eaters. Suddenly he's betrayed Dumbledore and the
2010:
The problem is your that premise is possibly false or at best speculative. Who says "A-Voldemort" sent "C-Snape" to spy on "B-Dumbledore", and that "C-Snape" complied and therefore could not be a traitor because he was never loyal to Dumbledore? Certainly not Rowling. You cannot insist on the
1869:
Don't forget the point of our discussion here. Back to the topic "fictional traitor". You guys may agree on double or triple agent, that doesn't matter to me. The important detail is that those two phrases already give the idea that "Snape is disloyal to one of the two sides", in which case once
1763:
I could go either way on "fictional traitors." IMHO, Snape presumably betrayed either Voldemort (during the first conflict when he provided information to Dumbledore), or Dumbledore (during book 6). I suppose there is a slim possibility that Snape worked it out in such a way that he has yet to
700:
isolated in the Pensieve, and I doubt he'd have embarrassed himself by excluding the rest of his house coming to his rescue. My guess is that his friends at Hogwarts were of the age of Malfoy and Bellatrix, who both left long before him; and that he never bothered to extend his friendship to any
2109:
abandoning Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix to rejoin Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Either way, your firm claim that Snape could not be guilty of betrayal and could not be a traitor because he betrayed nobody - because he was "only a spy doing his duties" is simply a false and invalid
1771:
for at least one and maybe both sides. Voldemort knows that Dumbledore believes that Snape is a member of the Death Eaters but secretly loyal to Dumbledore. Similarly, Dumbledore knows that Voldemort believes that Snape is a member of the OotP but secretly loyal to Voldemort. That's a triple
1704:
well, two things. I had a look at what is in the fictional traitors category, but I didn't recognise most of them, so it is hard to judge what the creators of the category consider constitutes a 'traitor'. If they are specifically including people who betray their enemies after pretending to be
1430:
In my opinion, it will be a lame comparison between Narnia and Harry Potter here. Snape's loyalty is still among controversial up til' now, so he should be removed from Fictional traitors list. That's the best way to get rid of debating here. Everything can change in an unanticipated situation.
1314:
In deeply controversial subjects such as this, it is always better to reach a consensus decision (even if it sails close to OR), rather than insist on imposing the most recently canon situation. Especially since, in a year tops, there won't be any question of Snape's loyalty, one way or another
1188:
Oh, moreover, I know Snape must be disloyal to one of the two sides, and some of U may think the impression created by that word "traitor" doesn't matter. But that's wrong. Impression is part of the meaning of the word and I should repeat accurate info is required here. You have to think of how
2603:
I didn't think so. Hermione says, "Snape must have been proud of being 'half a Prince'...Tobias Snape was a Muggle from what it said in the Prophet." And then Harry answers, "He'd play up the Pureblood side...he's just like Voldemort. Pureblood mother, Muggle father." He assumes Eileen to be a
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Something seems off. I've been reading back through the archive, and throughout the whole article, and it seems to maintain that his loyalty is truely unknown (for now, and will possibly be revealed in the 7th book). This sentence seems to throw that all off, and implies that Snape was helping
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Betrayal, as a form of deception or dismissal of prior presumptions, is the breaking or violation of a presumptive social contract (trust, or confidence) that produces moral and psychological conflict within a relationship amongst individuals, between organizations or between individuals and
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It is hurtfull. It looks extremely unprofessional. Like some idiot has published an incomplete article. The article should always be left looking finished. Makes us look fools having emty sections. Always remember that people have been reading what you wrote and wondering why there are empty
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In the Half-blood Prince, it is made clear that she is entirely unaware of her ability to prophecise (bizarre actions from Dumbledore there). But, in the case of the first prophecy at least, she was aware of feeling a little odd (which she attributed to a lack of food), before suddenly being
94:"the fact that Snape used an old Potions textbook of his mother's while in school suggests that his family was not wealthy" Is the Potions textbook really his mother's? I don't remember that in HP6. It was Snape's, certainly, but where does it say that even he was using it second-hand? --
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If he hasn't betrayed Dumbledore, he's betrayed just about everyone who would have called him friend when he was a schoolchild, sending them to Azkaban or the grave, and betrayed Voldemort to whom he swore an explicit oath of loyalty. According to the definition given at the start of
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I'd say the very fact that he deliberately protects the Philosopher's Stone from Professer Quirrel is something. Regardless of whether or not he knew (as he claims he didn't) that dear old Voldy was hiding under the man's turban, he is still making sure that he doesn't steal it. CO.
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out to be a hero, then I'm still not quite sure he would be an anti-hero, because it would probably then be the case that he has always done all the right heroic sorts of things, just been badly misunderstood. He is certainly complicated. Do we have a section for complicated heroes?
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I havn't looked at it from the standpoint of trying to find something, just anything, to include, just to justify having a section. If there is nothing to include then there shouldn't be a section. That is why there no sections in the first place, because half of them are empty!
2006:
it sends a person called C (Snape) to B, and C does whatever he could to gain B's trust, pretends working for B and tries to steal some information. He just does his job of spying, he doesn't betray B. Please tell me a good reason why you think Snape's a traitor in this case.
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articles. An article which is a long retelling of every detail of what a character did is not that interesting. Might as well just read the book. This article was structured to compare and contrast elements from different books where comparable and interesting things happen.
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isolated and unpopular (only his one-year liason with Bellatrix, and a possible Malfoy connection), it would be wrong to suggest that, for example, he was popular and just took care not to let Harry know. But the possible flaws in the info given to us should be recorded.
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Someone struck out the category entry for Double agent, on the grounds that it is a category for real people, not fictional ones. Someone else put it back. Now, I have to agree that the cat appears to be exclusively for real spys, so Snape should not be in it. Comments?
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interrupted by Snape (and we have no way of knowing whether the interruption came immediately after the delivery, or a brief moment after). Which profoundly conflicts with Dumbledore's original claim that the spy was discovered halfway through the recounting, and thrown
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Double agent: Snape is working for Dumbledore for Hogwarts, and Voldemort believes that Snape is there as Voldemort's spy, but in fact, Snape is really loyal to Dumbledore, who is aware that Voldemort believes him to be a secret agent and is using that belief to his
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were all Death Eaters who went on to be Death Eaters).As for the Lexicon, I have nothing but contempt for that: anyone who justifies not changing the date because 'I think that really Jo should have made Bella born in 1955' is not the most disinterested of editors.
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2. (to Prosfilaes) Snape may work for Vol (which makes he betray no one - see above)/ or he may work for Dum (which will make you think he betrays Vol). Anyway the possibility here is 50/50. That's why you shouldn't be so certain that Snape is a fictional traitor.
2025:
You misunderstand. I don't tell you it will definitely happen. My premise may be true or false, still, it's just an example. My point is that: if there's still a possibility Snape is not a traitor, then it's wrong to say he is. Also, what do you mean by the
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But categories aren't to inform you more about the subject; they are to connected together subjects in the encyclopedia that are similar. If we don't have the category Fictional Traitor, then there will be no link connecting this article to other fictional
543:
I've done what I can for now, I should be back later. HP2 and HP3 need info. I don't think I'd be able to write anything worthwhile, so somebody else do this, please. I also have some excess info. that didn't fit directly into a section. Here it is:
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I don't recall that this scene ever appears in the book (Snape's unconscious at that point), but I think it's really important to the character. It shows that while he may be a jerk, he is nonetheless willing to risk himself to protect his students.
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Triple agent: Snape is working for Dumbledore at Hogwarts. Dumbledore knows that Snape is still a death eater and believes Snape to be acting a double agent. In fact, Snape is loyal to Voldemort, who knows that Snape is purporting to be a double
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Point noted, however the characters are the same persons. If the article is to be merged, then there really isn't anywhere else we can put the tag- it should be at the top of the page. I'll have another look at the merge page on Knowledge (XXG).
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if his loyalties have lain with the same person from the start or not. We're not here to speculate or predict or interpret, we're here to state the facts. Please stop arguing a minor detail and contribute to Knowledge (XXG) in a useful way.
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a crystal ball. It isn't our job to try to predict things. Right now only J.K. Rowling knows which colour hat Snape is wearing for certain; the rest of us will have to wait until the 7th book until we make truly definitive statements.
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Also, please note that I restored the label (which causesobad just removed). As I said, "Nobody should, or will, be adding/removing any fictional traitor labels unless it is agreed here." I don't like being made a liar.
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It isn't our job to try to predict things. Right now only J.K. Rowling knows which colour hat Snape is wearing for certain; the rest of us will have to wait until the 7th book until we make truly definitive statements.
1006:
err...but I was objecting to unnecessary sectioning, and that objecton still applies. we do not need one section per paragraph, especially when there is no real way around starting each paragraph 'in hary potter and...
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two sections because Snape's role in two (or more) consecutive books is not very large, then do so. I agree with Sandpiper it should not be a listing of every major or minor occurrence, but it should not be excluded. --
426:"when his loyalty seemed to be Albus Dumbledore's. He had been fooling Dumbledore for at least two years, before murdering him in servitude of Lord Voldemort in the sixth book, 'Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince'.
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And rather odd that they haven't been. I'm sure they'll be filled in as appropriate soon enough (I can certainly do it Thursday or later if it hasn't already been done). And the system of division according to book,
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Also: please try to type properly in full words. Not all readers are familiar with such modes of writing, and it is rather difficult to read and understand your comments when they are written like that. Thanks.
2522::"...Often, such accusations are controversial and disputed, as the person may not identify with the group of which they are a member, or may otherwise disagree with the group leaders making the charge."
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But that it is clear to Harry where the Prophecy fits in (otherwise the scene would lose all point - Snape could be bursting in an hour before the Prophecy was made because he genuinely wanted a job).
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Actually, while I'm here, I would just like to propose that he also be placed under "anti-heroes". Since we don't know whether he's a hero or a villain, isn't anti-hero the nearest compromise? CO.
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what we are writing about, and I'd suggest that the infobox read "with Death Eaters" and the section "Loyalty" be renamed "Question of loyalty" and very strictly cited, as it could border on OR. It
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I note that you have still left it as sections which are only one paragraph long. Even having written something for the sake of it, the sections are still not long enough to justify being sections.
1870:
again I need to point out the traitor thing is unnecessary. You cannot say it helps add more info cuz the word is only about the betrayal thing and that particular info is demonstrated by the word
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also made about the affectionate relationship between Snape and Lily Evans. If that'll be the case, Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore and Dumbledore's monumental reliance on Snape will be solved.
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says that certainty is impossible on anything. We are reasonably certain that he is a traitor; more certain then we are that Harry discovered anything real during those Occlumency lessons.--
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If you look at the quote in the novel about the crowd Snape ran with, you will see that "Snape was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be death eaters." This does
1022:
That "fictional traitor" word has the negative, bad meaning , not suitable to use if Snape works for the good side, and we don't know where his loyalty lies, so why call him that way?
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is a matter of taking advantage of someone's trust and turning it against them. Dumbledore trusted Snape - and clearly and unwaveringly stated so many times to Harry and to the
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He had apparently been fooling Dumbledore for at least two years, before murdering him in servitude of Lord Voldemort in the sixth book, 'Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince'.
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I'm just saying the article shouldn't be so assertive about these dates, because they are open to interpretation and cannot be pinned down definitively using evidence in cannon.
2243:, that 'Fictional traitor' word is such a speculation, not the fact we can get from the book. If it seems a minor detail to you, I hope you don't mind if I remove the category.
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betray either Voldemort or Dumbledore, assuming that both of them knew everything that Snape did and approved of it for their own reasons, but that seems fantastically unlikely.
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It should. Such info biases should be recorded. I assume, however, that you are not going to go further than that - since there isn't really much in the text to say that he
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There's no proof whatsoever that Snape's been fooling DD for two years, or that he murdered him in servitude of LV. It's all part of the speculation conc. Snape's loyality.
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organizations. Often betrayal is the act of supporting a rival group, or it is a complete break from previously decided upon or presumed norms by one party from the others.
1630:)." You may consider it wrong to say that he's loyal to the Death Eaters (outright, without a note), but it is even more inaccurate to say that he's a double agent. --
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But the writing is almost certainly Snape's: when Harry saw his exam paper, the writing was 'small and cramped'; the HBP Textbook writing was 'miniscule and cramped'.
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Arhugefan, your example may make sense, but it didn't happen that way in the book. The story we've been told is that Snape was once a Death Eater, and then he was a
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which means U know there ARE reasons to believe Snape is not traitor to Dum, and while the question is open, wiki shouldn't make a judgement cuz it's so unfair.
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Can someone please post a definition of traitor? If people are going to get heated, they should at least be sure they are getting heated about the right thing.
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Also, I have removed the merger notice from the article. It would be an entirely unacceptable spoiler to keep it there (what chance has the casual reader of
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You say it's not helpful, but it's certainly not hurtful. Ooops, I meant to put that paragraph back in somewhere and I forgot. I'll look at it right now.
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I have renamed the section formerly called "Spoiler" to "As the 'Half-Blood Prince'." There is a spoiler tag at the top of the page, before the TOC, so it
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Pureblood, but I don't recall any informed statement or suggestion that she is a Pureblood. Therefore, I am off to alter the blood purity article.
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Snape, and frankly hated him, might it be that we are quoting a rather biased source here? He could have been thououghly popular in Slytherin?
2374:
Order and Harry and whomever else, and he's a traitor to them. Either way that you look at it, he betrayed the Death Eaters, or he betrayed
1874:(or whatever) already. We shall remove the category f.traitor safely without worrying about missing sth significant. It's just the best way
2105:, by abandoning either Voldemort and the Death Eaters in the first place to join up with Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix, or by
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1138:. Anyway, one thing that is overlooked on Knowledge (XXG) articles about Snape is that everything that says "loyalty still unknown" is
2015:, at least the definitions, before attempting to redefine "betrayal" and "traitor" on your own self-imagined terms and conditions. --
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Snape relentlessly antagonises Harry, calling him "a nasty little boy who considers rules to be beneath him". He taunts Harry during
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Ah, thanks for explaining. I think I'll rephrase so that it is clear that she does not remember the prophecy, just the night.
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be definitively settled in 3/4 of a year or so, making this a time-limited stop-gap measure rather than a definitive solution.
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noticing if it is at the top of the page?). It should not be added again there. Put it at the bottom, or with the HBP details.
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You are on a failing mission to have a category removed that has a 100% factual basis. You'd have better luck trying to have
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The book supports his allegiance to the OotP too. This should be included too, or his allegiance should listed as 'Unknown'.
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all know that Knowledge (XXG) isn't static, it is dynamic. The empty sections only helped to expedite their creation.
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But Snape voluntarily associated with these groups, and went against their basic principles. Hard to argue with that.--
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I'm glad to see he's under fictional murderers, double-agents and Slytherins etc., but, incredibly, he is not under
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He was almost definitely using it second-hand, whether or not it was his mothers, as it is nearly fifty years old.
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Snape has spent the last forty years in a stasis box, or died in the service of Voldemort the first time around.--
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other relevant info, is a useful means of codifying the data - which is why it is used in most long HP articles.
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Well now they're full. I'll leave you and John to the debate of whether or not there should even be sections.
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I agree. But your conclusion '...so he has to be a traitor to one or the other' is mistaken. I'll tell you why.
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unnecessary since it adds no more info and makes false impression instead. Wiki article must not be misleading.
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Snape appeared at 12 Grimmauld Place, which to gain entrance one needed to be affiliated with the Order. --
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that he betrayed B by putting him under the notion that he was loyal to him (B) but actually loyal to A. --
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OR to suggest that Snape's loyalties outright lie with the OoP now, because the text doesn't support it. --
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as Snape does. Hermione even managed to poison herself. I don't think any of them should be in that cat.
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2097:(Hogwarts, Teachers, Students, Dumbledores Army, Order of the Phoenix etc.; or the Death Eaters). He
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Wouldn't a good solution to be to add in information on Snape's role in CoS? Then everyone's happy!
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Fine; I was merely trying to remove the term from the section box (where I had only just noticed it).
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argument. You will have to do better than that, since Snape did virtually everything that the
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Secret agent: Snape is working for Dumbledore at Hogwarts, and is secretly a spy for Voldemort.
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of his masters. Excluding the info would be to exclude factual data for moralistic reasons.
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But generally betraying the 'bad' side makes you on balance a hero, rather than a traitor.
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Snape, thought to be on Dumbledore's side, killed Dumbledore; Snape=traitor to Dumbledore.
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2093:(eg: Harry, Dumbledore, etc; or Voldemort, Bellatrix Lestrange, Mrs. Malfoy, etc.), and
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We know he can't be loyal to both sides, so he has to be a traitor to one or the other.
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Since a specific category for the fictional double agent doesn't exist and you can see
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is for both real and fictional ones. I see no reason why Snape should not be in it.
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When did Trelawney recount the prophecy? I thought she didn't remember giving it.
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Yes, perhaps, but then again not (and by the way, excellent to see you back again).
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We're not here to speculate or predict or interpret, we're here to state the facts
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sections are themselves linkeable. So they really need to go back into the text.
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Okay, I didn't see that allegiance had been changed back. It's fine how it is.
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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What do you call someone who betrays their friends to the enemy? According to
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To check: is there a canonical reference to Eileen Prince being a pureblood?
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article, I had a look at it and find no connection with what Snape has done.
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Voldemort. Could anyone possibly word this better? Or perhaps get rid of it?
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It doesn't really matter what impression it gives, it is undeniable that he
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So what term would you use to describe a person who betrays the Dark Side?
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Is there an equivalent example of Snape being a good person in the books?
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this article, as the two are the same person. Please discuss below-
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were told his fits is dangerous.....17:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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And about the removal of 'fictional traitor', I completely agree
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not have betrayed anyone" is a false and misleading argument. --
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is real. Stop wasting our time and cluttering up the talk page
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You don't need three sides to be a triple agent, only two. (See
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characters belong to it. Thus I suggest we move this cat. back.
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for now. Especially when, as I pointed out earlier, the matter
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What make you think he's been loyal to both sides?) Secondly,
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he has passed information about both sides to both sides. We
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produced moral and psycological conflict in his relationships
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removed from the fictional books category claiming that the
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delete the empty sections, or to add relevant information.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Severus-snape-protecting.jpg
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This is turning into a discussion forum for Snape. We
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date in this article is no better than the Lexicon's.
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As you wish, I made an effort to change the category
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war against his country; or one who aids an enemy in
2067:broke or violated a presumptive social contract
2081:1) Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix, or
991:I've removed the linking in the sections since
475:No. It will ruin the sixth book for readers.
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2477:or body of troops to the enemy, unless when
2655:characteristic. It risks confusing people.
1756:A bunch of quick thoughts on this subject:
423:I really think this part should be edited:
2085:2) Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Snape
2367:gained Dumbledore's and the Order's trust
1130:, after a while, and the intervention of
333:I agree with you so I've deleted it.
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
1095:The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe
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1760:has resigned from Hogwarts faculty)
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613:Category:Fictional schoolteachers
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1739:, Snape is indeed a traitor. --
746:frankly they were his enemies.
573:need to be rid of spoilers! --
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449:Half-Blood Prince (character)
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207:10:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
189:11:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
151:18:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
2063:dismissed prior presumptions
1767:Snape is clearly at least a
1012:08:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
1001:07:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
974:01:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
939:22:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
918:23:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
902:22:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
893:22:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
883:22:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
874:21:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
863:22:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
847:08:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
837:02:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
815:02:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
782:01:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
771:01:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
751:22:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
741:02:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
719:19:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
706:14:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
691:13:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
675:05:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
635:05:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
602:05:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
565:18:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
538:18:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
528:18:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
513:04:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
493:12:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
480:11:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
470:10:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
300:14:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
2445:his country; one guilty of
1097:feature this very subject?
979:of storyline doesn't help.
642:Go ahead and add him then!
432:That's not in the article.
374:of the bar. I wonder why...
129:00:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
104:I wondered that myself. --
2749:
1772:agent, not a double agent.
1126:One might say it did with
109:23:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
99:22:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
2508:From www.wiktionary.com
1812:). Just as an example:
1134:and the Deep Magic with
343:
124:when she married James.
2518:Furthermore, also from
2099:supported a rival group
202:how the matter stands.
1687:Going along with what
419:Personality and traits
305:
2594:Not that I remember.
2465:up any fort or place
1018:Not fictional traitor
621:comment was added by
245:comment was added by
42:of past discussions.
2101:, and possibly made
447:I've suggested that
344:Trelawney's Recount?
2469:to his defense, or
1622:Far from violating
696:Well, he certainly
607:Hang on a minute...
119:Livedevilslivedevil
1826:. . . and so on.
306:Something's off...
18:Talk:Severus Snape
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28:
27:
19:
2634:double agent
2620:
2617:Double Agent
2583:
2529:
2517:
2510:
2507:
2500:or trust; a
2489:his country.
2417:
2387:
2379:
2375:
2370:
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2329:
2282:
2274:
2240:
2198:
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2024:
1990:Epistemology
1956:
1940:
1926:Harry Potter
1917:
1872:double agent
1810:Double agent
1769:triple agent
1671:
1666:
1639:
1631:
1618:
1617:
1237:
1229:
1225:
1212:
1175:
1151:
1143:
1094:
1056:
1052:
1021:
990:
954:
946:
932:
857:
829:
795:
787:
764:
732:
711:
697:
684:
655:
647:
610:
582:
574:
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568:
559:
542:
521:
499:
485:
456:
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446:
431:
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371:
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321:
315:
309:
289:
280:
277:
273:
268:
193:
172:
170:
93:
65:
43:
37:
2596:John Reaves
2165:John Reaves
2091:individuals
2083:rival group
2079:rival group
2077:for either
2055:rival group
1948:to tell me.
1943:John Reaves
1937:John Reaves
1900:traitors.--
1697:John Reaves
1667:penultimate
1267:John Reaves
1215:John Reaves
1036:John Reaves
998:John Reaves
860:John Reaves
779:John Reaves
562:John Reaves
525:John Reaves
435:John Reaves
389:John Reaves
361:John Reaves
335:John Reaves
247:89.49.83.62
36:This is an
2555:Prosfilaes
2498:confidence
2487:conquering
2479:vanquished
2471:surrenders
2439:allegiance
2376:Dumbledore
2160:don't know
2107:apparently
2075:confidence
1994:Prosfilaes
1976:Wizengamot
1902:Prosfilaes
1819:advantage.
1793:Causesobad
1741:Prosfilaes
1691:said, see
1537:Prosfilaes
1504:Causesobad
1471:Prosfilaes
1433:Causesobad
869:sections.
761:Sectioning
451:be merged
265:This image
167:Birth year
96:Delius1967
2689:Sandpiper
2657:Sandpiper
2624:Sandpiper
2569:Sandpiper
2467:intrusted
2245:Arhugefan
2139:Arhugefan
2059:deception
2032:Arhugefan
1963:Arhugefan
1953:Arhugefan
1920:Arhugefan
1876:Arhugefan
1715:Sandpiper
1693:WP:IGNORE
1343:Arhugefan
1283:(XXG) is
1191:Arhugefan
1181:Arhugefan
1070:Sandpiper
1055:betrayed
1024:Arhugefan
1009:Sandpiper
993:Sandpiper
981:Sandpiper
936:Sandpiper
915:Sandpiper
908:Sandpiper
890:Sandpiper
871:Sandpiper
844:Sandpiper
768:Sandpiper
748:Sandpiper
716:Sandpiper
710:Hmm, yes
688:Sandpiper
297:Sandpiper
214:Sandpiper
126:Sandpiper
106:cholmes75
82:Archive 5
77:Archive 4
72:Archive 3
66:Archive 2
60:Archive 1
2725:contribs
2707:contribs
2674:contribs
2646:contribs
2542:usesobad
2502:betrayer
2435:violates
2433:One who
2342:usesobad
2112:Betrayal
2042:betrayal
2028:betrayal
2013:Betrayal
1972:Betrayal
1950:Thanks,
1777:Thanks,
1620:—Severa.
830:and then
701:others.
631:contribs
619:unsigned
571:does not
243:unsigned
2717:PeaceNT
2699:PeaceNT
2666:PeaceNT
2638:PeaceNT
2520:treason
2513:treason
2494:betrays
2447:treason
2443:betrays
2051:trusted
1934:Thanks,
1828:TheronJ
1779:TheronJ
1737:treason
1533:treason
1093:Didn't
899:Makgraf
880:Makgraf
644:Be bold
552:lessons
39:archive
2580:Mother
2525:Abelin
2483:levies
2463:yields
2451:breach
2325:Abelin
2186:member
2065:, and
2061:, and
1823:agent.
1624:WP:NOT
1290:Severa
733:wasn't
712:seemed
698:seemed
615:! CO.
2511:From
2461:, or
2459:enemy
2455:trust
2369:. It
2117:T-dot
2089:with
2071:trust
2017:T-dot
1980:T-dot
1941:Dear
1918:Dear
1132:Aslan
443:Merge
16:<
2721:Talk
2703:Talk
2670:Talk
2642:Talk
2496:any
2475:army
2441:and
2437:his
2428:Noun
2378:. --
2156:know
2040:The
1672:will
1628:1997
646:! --
627:talk
505:tleG
462:tleG
453:into
251:talk
2473:an
2453:of
2405:||
2394:del
2381:Fbv
2300:||
2289:del
2276:Fbv
2216:||
2205:del
2192:Fbv
2073:or
1657:||
1646:del
1633:Fbv
1294:!!!
1285:not
1255:||
1244:del
1231:Fbv
1169:||
1158:del
1145:Fbv
1057:one
1053:has
972:||
961:del
948:Fbv
813:||
802:del
789:Fbv
673:||
662:del
649:Fbv
600:||
589:del
576:Fbv
508:irl
502:Cat
486:not
465:irl
459:Cat
372:out
173:not
2727:)
2723:|
2709:)
2705:|
2676:)
2672:|
2648:)
2644:|
2403:☛c
2401:/
2399:☑t
2397:/
2385:65
2298:☛c
2296:/
2294:☑t
2292:/
2280:65
2214:☛c
2212:/
2210:☑t
2208:/
2196:65
1945:,
1922:,
1695:.
1655:☛c
1653:/
1651:☑t
1649:/
1637:65
1296:)
1253:☛c
1251:/
1249:☑t
1247:/
1235:65
1226:is
1167:☛c
1165:/
1163:☑t
1161:/
1149:65
1140:OR
970:☛c
968:/
966:☑t
964:/
952:65
811:☛c
809:/
807:☑t
805:/
793:65
671:☛c
669:/
667:☑t
665:/
653:65
633:)
629:•
598:☛c
596:/
594:☑t
592:/
580:65
253:)
2719:(
2701:(
2668:(
2640:(
2537:A
2532:C
2504:.
2390:e
2337:A
2332:C
2285:e
2201:e
1642:e
1292:(
1288:-
1240:e
1154:e
957:e
798:e
658:e
637:.
625:(
585:e
318:"
314:"
257:.
249:(
50:.
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