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Talk:Secwépemc

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of Canadian English and the accepted norms." That sentence is completely and unambiguously and (one would have thought) uncontroversially true. These (except for perhaps Skwxwu7mesh, I don't specifically recall) were the correct spellings at the Vancouver Sun while I was covering aboriginal affairs more than 20 years ago for goodness sake. The Vancouver Sun isn't exactly a linguistics newsletter." The profoundly exotic line of argument he's referring to is the "it's not English because nobody knows how to pronounce it" and "we don't do official names" criticisms of the proposed version(s). Also received a note from my CBC reporter contact that the CBC's name/pronunciation system is an internal database and can't be linked/quoted easily. Still awaiting word from the Counsel-General (who's back at work today) and CTV. But between federal and provincial government citations and documents, two or three crown corps, munis/RDs and the
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their stories. The second point is missionaries were the ones to write down the language. They created the written form while sitting there and listening, and applied this method to all aboriginal languages . While this is not entirely accurate, I would suggest that phonetics sometimes had their place, as has Anglicization of words. The third point is that though some have adopted the international phonetic alphabet, there are many in British Columbia that have their own orthographies. There is an interesting description of “current” versus “other” names at this page:
831:"Isn't obvious" is true for the pronunciation of many English words, like "women" or "read". "Shuswap" is used in Canada, and COMMONALITY is in the same section of the MOS as ENGVAR for a reason. I'd like to see a dictionary with an English pronunciation for "Secwepemc" to demonstrate that it's been assimilated the way "Shuswap" has been. That is, it would be nice to know that English speakers reading this article would be able to actually use the name in conversation. If not, it's not much use as an English name. — 727: 237: 219: 171: 105: 731: 327: 309: 518: 95: 33: 64: 796:(which is the main usage for what "the Shuswap" means in British Columbia), but "many people" can learn something new everyday....as should you. "Secwepemc" is now the media standard in Canada, and is part of Canadian English. This is a Canadian article, where Canadian English conventions completely override what "many people" in other countries only know. Secwepemc territory extends 191: 1180:, one of which is also BC Ed Min on a curriculum map, the other for pron. of Ktunaxa on the ktunaxa.org website. Needless to say, native-nation page websites for the Scewepemc can be expected to have similar; there's a Shuswap history (meaning the Shuswap region) bibliography/links page I saw recently, I'll go find it, it also has a pronunciation guide. 393: 1286:, from the federal government's Translation Bureau, an essay on the new names and it says straight out "Secwepemc (formerly Shuswap)". I suggest you read the whole essay. His post on the Lillooet/St'at'imc RM included also a book on aboriginal peoples for children, published in 2012, which lays out similar. 1125:
This one is probably more a bastardization than a complete rename by Anglos, like Nlaka'pamux. Secwepemc has been in use regionally for my whole lifetime - people do default to Shuswap because of the pronunciation difficulties, but this is changing. The government uses it, the people themselves use
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I've received a reply about these matters from the BC Attorney General's ministry's Legislative Program Coordinator in the Office of the Counsel General, who is responsible for the government's style and usage guide. I'll quote it verbatim rather than try to summarize it, and she pretty much covers
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The B.C. Government, through the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation and the Ministry of Education, has recognized the rights of First Nations to develop and educate their children in traditional languages. A common goal in B.C. and other jurisdictions is promote self-government. Of
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and is a very notable writer on First Nations and other aboriginal issues. This is a direct quote from his reply: "What a profoundly exotic line of argument, and against this? "The St'at'imc, Tshilqot'in, Secwepemc, Ktunaxa and Nlaka'pamux names, if not so much Skwxwu7mesh, are now a standard part
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as per a comment on a parallel RM, I've contacted the Counsel-General of British Columbia, part of the Ministry of the Attorney-General, who are the government's language specialists and who helped resolve the hyphen-endash matter for regional districts. Some say official sources don't count...but
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Sez you, the newspapers in Kamloops and Merritt and Williams Lake and Salmon Arm are not likely to agree with you, nor any college of school in the area, either. Your appraisal of it is not very relevant if you're not reading Canadian sources, and are dismissive of the preference of the indigenous
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I don't think peoples become extinct. "Died out" would be a possible expression, unless they were actively wiped out, in which case, we should frankly use "were wiped out". What do you think? My opinion is that the human race as a whole could become extinct, but portions of it cannot be, as we are
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As we know, orthography is a system used to standardize how a particular language is written. The problem with aboriginal languages has a lot to do with three things. The first is that the aboriginal peoples did not have a written language, it was all oral and their history was passed down through
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is used. The argument that "Ohhhhhh my! I can’t pronounce it. I don’t know how to say it... Waaaaaah waaaaah!" isn’t a good argument to keep the out-dated name. There’s tons of places, towns, and people that I can’t pronounce, and they’re in different Native languages, English, and French, but get
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video on Youtube, and he didn't use either of the listed pronunciations. To my white ears, he said "SOOK-woop-mut" (or replace the second "oo" with schwa). The primary stress was on the first syllable, not the second. I understand there may be differences among Secwepemc themselves, but the
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It occurred to me that a certain page in each category, I guess the main article, shoulld have a todo list for that topic category, like a mini-WikiProject on each one; this way, maybe, when someone with the interest and/or from one of those areas or nations comes by, there's a directory of
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In addition, when my office is working with aboriginal names and naming, it is necessary to have the orthographic character as used by that aboriginal peoples. While my office works with Queen’s Printer for this, we do often refer to sites like this one to find what we need:
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it, and the media is catching on. We might be a bit ahead of the curve here, but why not be a bit ahead of the curve? It's not going back in the other direction; the people made up their minds, and us non-natives are finally respecting that (although with some resistance).
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Tell that to the major media whose news reporters use it regularly. Once again you're "many people have heard of the Shuswap", like your "people around the world" claim about the Ktunaxa issue, is nonsense; many people around the world have indeed heard of the
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isn't English and its origins are unclear though is claimed t o be of native origin, though the Secwepemc themselves don't have a meaning for it; its English pronunciation isn't obvious either (that second 's' is decidedly a "sh" in normal usage).
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currently redirects here, but there should be a disambig page because of the common nature of this name in BC: Shuswap Lake, Shuswap River, Shuswap Country (pointedly in the local argot, "the Shuswap), the Shuswap Nation (not the same thing as
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has to say on pronunciation: Secwepemc /ˈsəxwepməx/. However, unlike their entries on Ktunaxa and Stl'atl'imx their main entry is under Shuswap, with the Secwepemc entry simply saying "See Shuswap". Here is their Shuswap entry.
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From that point on she lists park names that exist either in both languages (whichever language it is), legally and formally, and some that have only native names; it's a set of HTML boxes, most reflected already in
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redirect the disambig page, one of the two...most English users of Shuswap, at least in BC, will not be using it so much for the people as for the region, lake or river...I also have to get around to stubbing up
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and but also bios, community articles, issue articles in need of doing, project/organization articles e.g. the language and education authorities, which are distinct frrom teh tribal councils, and so on....so
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English. You know, us funny folks that say "aboot" and use "-re" on "centre" and "-our" on "labour" and such.....and we embrace, including officially, indigenous words all the time...have a look at
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pronunciation of a former chief should at least be *listed* here. Moreover, I'm now questioning the veracity of those which are listed, as they don't match the speech of an actual Sepwepemc person.
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The purpose, of course, is respect for the First Nations peoples language and sensitivities. This is often a negotiated thing, particularly with parks, conservancies and reserves.
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the COMMONNAME usage and CANENGL applies, not ENGLISH in its global context. "Secwepemc" is now the standard in Canadian English, and is regularly used by major media
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if nothing else. Many people have heard of the "Shuswap". Hardly anyone has heard of the "Secwepemc", which AFAICT does not even have an English pronunciation. —
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Regarding the pronunciation, cited above as a counter-argument for using Secwepemc, I can give at least two governmental links with official pronunciation guides:
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local media as well as academia and by the peoples/governments/organizations themselves, as can be seen in the cites. A google search for "Secwepemc" yields
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This and institutions like it should all get articles; the St'at'imc have their own (a proposal currently), the Siska Band have theirs and more, including
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izzat so).....but just heard back from her, she's away until the 21st but will be looking into the matter for me, i.e. about official BC English usages.
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citation proving the other claim that the archaic/discredited names are "most common" or that "these terms don't belong in English-language Knowledge".
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The map is fine. Those are English pronunciations, which is all I asked for. (Rather illegible ones, but that's what we get with govt sites.) —
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is ENGLISH will cause much confusion in category and template names. "Shuswap" whether about the lake or the region or the river or the people,
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Both of those are useful on the other RMs; I just posted a rather exhaustive list, which included two other pronunciation guides, on the RM at
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for the people(s). You seem oblivious, even dismissive about this issue. "The Shuswap" in BC has a very clear common meaning, and it's
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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who gives "Shukwapmuk" though I'll check that spelling and get the source. It may already be linked in a previous section above. Also
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lists the pronunciation as ʃəˈxʷɛpəməx whereas this article omits the ə after the p (ʃəˈxʷɛpməx) as I often hear it pronounced. --
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many titles. If anyone needs "proof" of this email or thinks I fictionalized it, "email this user" and I will gladly forward it.
1612:, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section. 1549:, where you will find names that identify parks, conservancies and reserves that are in both regional and aboriginal references. 910:
on what basis do you determine that Secwepemc in these hundreds of English books "does not even have an English pronunciation"
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
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in English-language education in BC. probably also in French-immersion schools in BC, I haven't looked up their curriculum
1108:: Both words are "not English," so let's use the one the people themselves want to have used. It's an issue of respect. 253: 118: 69: 44: 1520: 1122:, even though my rationale over at Nlaka'pamux doesn't hold here - Shuswap people is still the LoC authority heading. 1326: 1693: 1311: 671: 698: 599: 1671:
Addendum: I've just heard Art's daughter say it, with the stress on the second syllable. My mistake, I guess.
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beyond "the Shuswap".....another well-known region name in BC that your renaming these to what you
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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First Peoples’ Cultural Council under Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation
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In addition to the two pronunciation guides found/posted by Capmo, here's one more:
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B.C. Language Initiative under Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation
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to distinguish from the "most common usage" which is for the region and the lake,
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existing/avialable titles/topics. Such is the case with the Secwepemc Museum and
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Major Interior Salish group (Shuswap); this is a people-stub and will also need
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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as well as various FN and museum categories.. Also re the above I'll redlink
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1. a member of an Aboriginal people living in the Thompson River area of BC.
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Main Thompson (Snekwaˀetkwemx), who became extinct during the late 19th cent
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Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
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may have been common in the past, but there is a litany of sources to show
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Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
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people and their own academic/linguistic community, as you obviously are.
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all the ground, including cites, I've already posted here and elsewhere.
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Seems to be missing a slight k before "whep"...another source that I'd
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And if you’re looking for examples of usage of regionalism, go to the
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The link on the this page doesn’t work, but here is a related link:
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is the more common pronunciation in English in contemporary times.
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the people". How you coming on cites for that "many people" claim?
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Unknown-importance Indigenous peoples of North America articles
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all one species and I believe only species can be extinct.
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Origin: corruption of Shuswap Secwepemc, self-designation.
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Pronunciation guide on map used by BC Ministry of Education
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English and have been for a good twenty years and more.
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Knowledge:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America
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WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America articles
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Start-Class Indigenous peoples of North America articles
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Pronunciation Guide to First Nations in British Columbia
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uses "Secwepemc (formerly Shuswap)", Oxford Press cites
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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Template:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America
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and check it out. I suppose your position is that the
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Needs a lot of expansion, citations, ethnobox, etc. --
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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I've just received a reply from author and reporter
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Knowledge:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests
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Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment
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Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action
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http://www.gov.bc.ca/arr/cultural/fcf/language.html
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Following 1466:http://www.gov.bc.ca/arr/cultural/fcf/bcli.html 245:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America 1561:Category:Provincial parks of British Columbias 1037:"Not English" is totally wrong, it may not be 1604:The comment(s) below were originally left at 1324:As I've done on other pages, here's what the 1041:English, but these names are the new norm in 421:of articles within the scope of this project. 8: 1434:interest to this issue would be these pages— 276:Indigenous peoples of North America articles 1765:Mid-importance Geography of Canada articles 30: 1417:http://maps.fphlcc.ca/language_index_other 435:Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles 381: 303: 213: 58: 1795:Unknown-importance Ethnic groups articles 1529:http://www.fpcc.ca/about-us/Publications/ 1523:. The website for the Crown Corporation: 1355:2. the Salishan language of this people. 1153:, BC Ministry of Education, resource docs 916:Bill McRae, Donald Olson - 2010 p286 has 914:British Columbia and the Canadian Rockies 535:Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment 1760:Start-Class Geography of Canada articles 1755:Mid-importance British Columbia articles 1643:Substituted at 05:16, 13 May 2016 (UTC) 1079:List of aboriginal place names in Canada 1547:Protected Areas of British Columbia Act 1085:article should be moved to the archaic 1053:aren't "normal" English either, nor is 533:Above undated message substituted from 305: 215: 60: 1745:Mid-importance Canada-related articles 1498:http://www.languagegeek.com/index.html 964:apparently those from other countries 1750:Start-Class British Columbia articles 920:isn't that an English pronunciation? 385:WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks: 7: 1476:http://maps.fphlcc.ca/language_index 689:The result of the move request was: 332:This article is within the scope of 242:This article is within the scope of 116:This article is within the scope of 1740:Start-Class Canada-related articles 553:"Shuswap" should be a disambig page 352:Knowledge:WikiProject Ethnic groups 267:Indigenous peoples of North America 258:indigenous peoples of North America 225:Indigenous peoples of North America 49:It is of interest to the following 1800:WikiProject Ethnic groups articles 1790:Start-Class Ethnic groups articles 1003:used in English-speaking context. 730:while for "Shuswap people" yields 585:Secwepemc Museum and Heritage Park 355:Template:WikiProject Ethnic groups 25: 1610:several discussions in past years 626:ToDo pages for each people/nation 1351:▶ noun (pl., same or Shus*waps) 516: 391: 325: 307: 235: 217: 103: 93: 62: 31: 1521:First Peoples’ Cultural Council 752:per well presented nomination. 201:WikiProject Geography of Canada 156:This article has been rated as 1073:, yet these are all common in 867:which uses "Secwepemc" in its 594:at Whistler and so on; all in 579:That's a very skookum idea ;-) 1: 1361:Usage: Also called Secwepemc. 1258:- Concurring strongly with 346:and see a list of open tasks. 264:and see a list of open tasks. 198:This article is supported by 178:This article is supported by 130:and see a list of open tasks. 1770:All WikiProject Canada pages 1698:10:28, 3 November 2022 (UTC) 1681:21:40, 3 November 2018 (UTC) 1666:19:23, 3 November 2018 (UTC) 1373:, who used to write for the 547:08:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 254:Indigenous peoples in Canada 181:WikiProject British Columbia 136:Knowledge:WikiProject Canada 1620:language article as well as 1474:and specific to languages: 938:Kwami should know about is 139:Template:WikiProject Canada 1816: 1327:Canadian Oxford Dictionary 646:Talk:Nlaka'pamux#ToDo_List 374:project's importance scale 292:project's importance scale 162:project's importance scale 1726:01:50, 10 June 2019 (UTC) 1634:15:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC) 1622:many subgroup articles -- 1617: 658:05:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC) 621:05:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC) 398:WikiProject Ethnic groups 380: 371: 335:WikiProject Ethnic groups 320: 289: 230: 197: 177: 155: 88: 57: 1586:Please do not modify it. 1573:06:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC) 1396:06:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC) 1341:20:09, 17 May 2013 (UTC) 1316:14:33, 17 May 2013 (UTC) 1296:11:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC) 1272:11:27, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 1245:11:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 1223:09:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 1190:04:20, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 1172:03:17, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 1141:20:10, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 1115:17:12, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 1099:10:04, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 1030:09:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 1013:17:54, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 982:06:11, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 956:05:50, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 946:gives something similar. 930:05:33, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 893:06:45, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 856:06:45, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 841:06:30, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 819:06:12, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 783:06:00, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 762:01:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 744:13:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC) 703:19:25, 25 May 2013 (UTC) 677:Please do not modify it. 638:Talk:Secwepemc#ToDo_List 600:Shuswap (disambiguation) 574:03:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC) 1606:Talk:Secwépemc/Comments 642:Talk:Shishalh#ToDo_List 142:Canada-related articles 1472:http://maps.fphlcc.ca/ 1363: 1207:fact of the curriculum 358:Ethnic groups articles 194: 174: 39:This article is rated 1345: 1303:per my comments here 861:Canadian Encyclopedia 525:. 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908:Kwamikagami, 907: 904: 903: 894: 890: 886: 882: 878: 874: 870: 866: 862: 859: 857: 853: 849: 844: 843: 842: 838: 834: 830: 829: 828: 827: 826: 825: 820: 816: 812: 807: 803: 799: 795: 791: 786: 785: 784: 780: 776: 772: 768: 765: 763: 759: 755: 754:In ictu oculi 751: 748: 747: 746: 745: 741: 737: 733: 732:4,780 results 729: 725: 721: 716: 711: 705: 704: 700: 696: 692: 685: 683: 678: 673: 668: 667: 662: 660: 659: 655: 651: 647: 643: 639: 634: 625: 623: 622: 618: 614: 610: 605: 601: 597: 593: 586: 583: 578: 577: 576: 575: 572: 568: 564: 559: 552: 550: 548: 544: 540: 536: 530: 528: 524: 519: 511: 493: 491: 487: 484:Feel free to 478: 475: 474: 472: 468: 467: 463: 461: 458: 456: 453: 451: 448: 446: 443: 441: 438: 436: 433: 432: 430: 426: 423: 420: 413: 412:Ethnic groups 406: 405: 403: 402: 401: 399: 394: 389: 388: 384: 383: 379: 375: 369: 366: 365: 362: 349:Ethnic groups 345: 341: 340:ethnic groups 337: 336: 331: 328: 324: 323: 319: 316: 315:Ethnic groups 313: 310: 306: 293: 287: 284: 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Frommer's 905: 880: 876: 872: 868: 860: 805: 801: 797: 794:Shuswap Lake 766: 749: 723: 719: 707: 690: 688: 676: 669: 629: 602:or make the 589: 556: 531: 515: 483: 464: 418: 404:Meta-tasks: 390: 333: 243: 199: 179: 157: 117: 51:WikiProjects 1626:(6 May 06) 1591:move review 1089:, too, huh? 682:move review 41:Start-class 1734:Categories 1718:Ikan Kekek 1653:Art Manuel 1380:government 940:James Teit 407:Place the 1280:User:Pfly 1111:Montanabw 1000:Secwepemc 992:Secwepemc 865:this book 715:Secwepemc 648:etc..... 611:I guess.. 567:Secwepemc 563:Secwepemc 417:template 79:Geography 1631:Miskwito 1624:Skookum1 1565:Skookum1 1388:Skookum1 1288:Skookum1 1215:Skookum1 1182:Skookum1 1133:Interior 1091:Skookum1 1075:Canadian 1043:Canadian 974:Skookum1 970:really?? 948:Skookum1 885:Skookum1 848:Skookum1 811:Skookum1 736:Skookum1 650:Skookum1 613:Skookum1 571:Skookum1 539:PrimeBOT 1706:Extinct 1401:Comment 1367:Comment 1322:Comment 1277:Comment 1197:Comment 1146:Comment 1120:Support 1106:Support 1083:Nisga'a 1063:Mi'kmaq 1051:Gingolx 1035:Comment 1022:JorisvS 996:Shushap 989:Support 961:Comment 633:Weetama 604:Shuswap 592:Weetama 558:Shuswap 527:Kskrine 400:tasks: 160:on the 1137:(Talk) 1071:Sto:lo 1018:Oppose 869:precis 767:Oppose 133:Canada 124:Canada 70:Canada 47:scale. 1308:olive 1237:kwami 1164:capmo 1067:Inuit 1047:'Ksan 936:think 906:Reply 833:kwami 802:claim 775:kwami 691:Moved 1722:talk 1694:talk 1677:talk 1662:talk 1569:talk 1392:talk 1337:talk 1333:Pfly 1312:talk 1292:talk 1284:this 1268:talk 1241:talk 1219:talk 1186:talk 1168:talk 1095:talk 1049:and 1039:your 1026:talk 1009:talk 978:talk 968:(?? 952:talk 926:talk 889:talk 873:also 852:talk 837:talk 815:talk 806:also 792:and 779:talk 769:per 758:talk 740:talk 699:talk 654:talk 617:talk 543:talk 460:Iyer 1583:. 1384:any 1211:yet 1162:. — 1130:The 1069:or 1065:or 1061:or 1057:or 881:not 877:not 798:far 724:and 720:NOT 537:by 488:or 368:??? 286:??? 152:Mid 1736:: 1724:) 1696:) 1679:) 1664:) 1571:) 1394:) 1339:) 1314:) 1306:.( 1294:) 1270:) 1262:. 1243:) 1221:) 1188:) 1170:) 1155:, 1097:) 1028:) 1011:) 980:) 966:do 954:) 928:) 891:) 854:) 839:) 817:) 781:) 760:) 742:) 712:→ 701:) 693:. 674:. 656:) 644:, 640:, 619:) 545:) 529:. 492:. 415:}} 409:{{ 252:, 77:/ 73:: 1720:( 1692:( 1675:( 1660:( 1567:( 1390:( 1335:( 1318:) 1310:( 1290:( 1266:( 1239:( 1217:( 1213:. 1184:( 1166:( 1093:( 1024:( 1007:( 976:( 950:( 924:( 887:( 850:( 835:( 813:( 777:( 756:( 738:( 697:( 652:( 615:( 541:( 376:. 294:. 204:. 184:. 164:. 53:: 20:)

Index

Talk:Shuswap people

content assessment
WikiProjects
WikiProject icon
Canada
British Columbia
Geography
WikiProject icon
Canada portal
WikiProject Canada
Canada
the discussion
Mid
project's importance scale
Taskforce icon
WikiProject British Columbia
Taskforce icon
WikiProject Geography of Canada
WikiProject icon
Indigenous peoples of North America
WikiProject icon
WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America
Native Americans
Indigenous peoples in Canada
indigenous peoples of North America
the discussion
???
project's importance scale
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