Talk:Shemale/Archive 5

2044:

whereas just noting it as a self-descriptor by those the scientist is studying would seem acceptable similar to having a list of different labels or even a blank where someone would self-identify. Blanchard's bit, IMHO, should include that his work is maligned for such usage. Meanwhile, erotic and sex industries capitalize on the use and transwomen do identify as shemale as needed to earn money, they would also just as easily identify as almost anything else conceivable and believable to appease a customer's preference. So I think it's a little disingenuous to assert the point with more emphasis than that. IMHO, it's a temporary label - even when used as a self-descriptor - not conforming to one's self-identity as much as reclaiming a word like "freak" "nigger" and "faggot" to take the sting out and dis-empower ones degraders. Usage within one's circle can be seen from a sociological view but I'm quite suspicious of adopting it well beyond that or that the number of people doing so is significant.

1295:

says absolutely nothing about the shemales who do prefer the use of the term so as to distinguish themselves from those who've had gender reassignment surgery. Finally, the reason many shemales appear not to have developed masculine traits is simply because they're from more progressive countries who don't have any qualms about prescribing testosterone-suppressing medication before they reach puberty. Medical conditions which cause adrogen insensitivity are exceedingly rare, and could not possibly be the cause for more than a very tiny fraction of boys who do not develop as males at puberty. Furthermore, failure to develop masculine traits at puberty does not result in the development of feminine traits, as the article currently suggests. All in all, this is a very poorly written article and should be completely rewritten from an objective perspective so as to remove the strong anti-shemale and anti-porn NPOV with which it is currently dripping. 20:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

274:, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with" (emphasis mine). I assume you knew this and that's why you pointed out the notice board rather than the policy page. Any one even remotely familiar with trans issues or the Bailey/Blanchard/Lawrence controversy should be able to see that since the majority of published academic sources are on one side of the controversy while non-academic sources are on the other side, it is wholly outside the spirit, if not the actual wording, of WP policies for anyone from Clark, yourself, or anyone involved with Conway/James side, User:Jokestress, to edit trans-related articles on WP. And yet, you both seem to continue to do so. And the fact that you and Jokestress are both involved in the ongoing RS debate, despite the obvious COI and POV, is, to me at least, both surprising and wrong. 294:

argument has been handled by those at Clark and their internet detractors and the media coverage of it has been an embarrassment to all trans people and the professionals working with them, continuing to edit in this manner is simply doing damage to your own reputation and the field and trans community as a whole. I'm trying desperately to avoid my comments coming across as personal attacks of the editors I've mentioned, but I will admit that my above response from this morning was written as one who was frankly appalled that this situation was going on. To see Andrea James's and your involvement, and both of you defend your ongoing involvement, was like seeing some one from the Discovery Institute editing articles on intelligent design. It's inappropriate and I would urge those editors to allow their continued work

1213:

claim that "shemale" is a pejorative, it is sourced with websites where the material is created by a single author, usually a transwoman, who feels the same way. Not only does this not reflect what the word "shemale" means to most non-transgender people, it sends the impression that nearly all transgender people consider the term to be a slur. There are a number of transgender communities (such as various online communities with personal avatars, furry fandom both online and in real life, even entire countries like Thailand) where the term "shemale" is not generally considered offensive, even among transgender women.

288:("allow communal ownership to supersede personal emotional involvement"). As a NY Times article on Bailey stated, the battle is being actively fought on WP by the involved parties, which I can only assume is why both you and Jokestress are here spending time on this at all. That is entirely against the spirit and the best interest of WP as a project. Ms. James and yourself, as well as both of your respective friends and colleagues, should step away from editing articles on trans issues, because you are all too close to the very contentious disputes being covered in these articles. 214:

you to cite you coworker, Blanchard, is a clear conflict of interest. And since the other statements, as I pointed our above are unsourced, and I can see from your current arguments about WP:RS, you believe unsourced material can be deleted, I'm going to revert your edit to the lead paragraph. Frankly, Mr. Cantor, the nature of the controversy surrounding trans topics and your workplace presents an obvious conflict of interest for you editing any trans-related article. It's

1269:"In many instances intersex persons born with ambiguous genitalia have, at the request of their parents, or on the advice of surgeons, been surgically altered to appear more male before puberty (which may be the reason that many shemales appear to have female skeletal structure and fat distribution, feminine body hair patterns, and/or small genitals resembling those of a prepubescent boy); this often occurs in children with Reifenstein syndrome, a form of PAIS." 31: 503:

usages so we can't say that everyone who uses it means the same thing. For our reader's benefit it's helpful to explain who it generally refers to and why the term is generally pejorative. Having witnessed transwomen apply the term to themselves I think it's also important that we aim for NPOV. It's not a derogatory term in all cases and it still means different things to different people. This is common in articles about slang terms.

197:. However, this is itself a fiercely debated topic. The existence of "non-op" women who do not wish to ever have genital surgery means that the intended goal or finish point of transition is not universal. As you can see from the older talk sections above, these points have been argued about before. It seems obvious that the rewrite will need to involve some decisions on these very types of controversial statements. 2067:

such thing, however. In fact, the only comment that Herbst makes regarding the connotation of the term is "The term may also refer positively to androgyny." The second source given on the main page is an online dictionary, which has questionable status as an RS, and which says, in parentheses, "sometimes offensive," which I agree with, but which is not very neutrally conveyed by 'often a term of abuse.'

2290:

science/medical section is. The unnecessary quotes, descriptors of authors, and whole titles of books merely target readers to convince them of the statements rather than merely to describe the statements to them. The science/medical section is the superior format, despite that the authors, statements, and sources used there dwarf the reliability of those given the immodest connotations section.

1795:) is a slang term for person with female breasts but male genitalia. In zoology, the term refers to non-human animals that display other combinations of male and female anatomy. The technical term is gynandromorph, which is used mostly in scientific contexts. Shemale is sometimes considered derogatory when applied to male-to-female transsexuals (transwomen). 1209:

only says (sometimes offensive), and is a highly questionable resource presumably written by a single anonymous author. An acceptable source for this would be a large national or international organization of transgender people which states in some official capacity that "the transgender community at large finds this offensive", not one person's opinion.

1101: 382: 105: 2207:"Most transwomen find the term abhorrent." Please read the article more carefully for the source to which I referred in my earlier comment. I can provide plenty of other sources that reflect reality about this term's usage. If you have a source that says this term is a "neutral" way to describe trans women, please provide it. 907:

the emergence of shemale and, later, online pornography thus spreading the word everywhere. I'm not sure if that's really going to do any good however as the salient points seem to be addressed in the lede - the term is associated with the sex trade and covers a range of people and is usually derogatory.

2262:

Connotations section is good but must not degenerate into propaganda against adult industry or shemales working in adult industry which appears to be the opinion of the academics Laura Castañeda and Shannon Campbell or Melissa Ditmore. Their writing form fuses concepts together, preempts and confuses

2079:

completed transition). The cites in opposition to the term are comments made by community activists who are generally postsurgical MtF folk (and, thus, for whom the term would be innaccurate and negative), who have expertise only in areas outside linguistics (such as biology), and who are expressing

2066:

I can suggest only that one look up the references given in the article, which do not say what the main page says they say. For example, the main page says that the term shemale "is often seen by transsexual people as a term of abuse" citing as a source Herbst (2001). Herbst (2001) does not say any

2011:

The main issue, in my opinion, is the use of WP by some trans activists to encourage the use of the terms they themselves prefer over the terms used by other members of the trans communities or by medical/scientific experts. There are activists who prefer terms that indicate their womanhood (such as

1208:

Similarly, the claim "In LGBT communities, especially amongst transgender individuals, the term is considered offensive" seems overly broad without qualification of "often" or "most". This claim is sourced by even though indicates that some transgender women choose shemale as an identity category,

906:

I've re-added the butterfly image as I think it's quite illustrative and has no BLP issues to it. The Blanchard stuff is a bit tricky but fits nicely into that section. I think I summarized it fairly and pointed to relevant articles for those interested. A section could be created and added all about

1200:

The statement "most notable for its slang usage in a pejorative context" is sourced by (Wimmin, Wimps, and Wallflowers) but the source does not support the claim of pejorative use (the actual text says "restricted to heterosexual use, the terms are not flattering", but that's all). It does support

293:

It's probably true that the work going on on these WP pages will color the future view of your own work, your colleagues' and your opponents. That's all the more reason why none of you should be attempting to write your own histories or that of your work on WP. In a similar way to how the way this

253:

To embark on how best to improve this article, I suggest you propose what text you would prefer over what I added. You may think of Blanchard and Money however you like (of course), but the existance of the formal terms (and RS's) they used to describe "she-males" is about as relevant as a fact can

2183:

here is presenting the term as value-neutral (I have written multiple times that the term is used different ways by different people), Jokestress is debating a mirage of her own creation. (Missing from Jokestress list of who uses the term how are the sources (added to the page by people other than

1526:

We can discuss the order, though I recommend chronologically. It actually makes sense when you see how the term came to have each meaning over time. I'd also like to see some sourcing for this alleged distinction in how this term is used when describing trans women. It's a slur no matter to whom it

1265:

I do not think this below listed section of text is relevant as it is more related to articles describing medical conditions. This part is also rather insensitive to sufferers of the condition in many ways or at least those who do not identify with genetic males that have augmented female breasts.

1294:

I agree with 75.180.20.49, and note that more than two-thirds of this "article" is little more than a rant against the use of the term. The ones who do NOT find the term offensive are true shemales, who are simply MTF transgendered people who have chosen to keep their male genetalia. The article

1212:

I know bringing this up will inflame passions. I don't want to create controversy. But this article has a historical tendency to be overrun by transwomen's POV that "shemale is pejorative" because most transwomen don't want to be called anything other than "woman". When people try to source the

794:

There are also tons of reliable sources from those weighing in about the term's use in the sex industry, and the pejorative connotations of the term. I am not aware of many people besides Janice Raymond, Ray Blanchard, and J. Michael Bailey who use the term uncritically. I propose we split it into

213:

Ah, I should have read the User:James Cantor page before asking all of those questions. I didn't realize you were THAT James Cantor. The clumsy edits and lack of wiki links made me think the edit was by some one well-meaning, but perhaps not-so-well-informed or perhaps new to WP. Obviously, for

2230:

Statements like "I can provide plenty of other sources..." are similarly unconvincing when unaccompanied by any actual RS's. I would indeed encourage you, or anyone, to locate such RS's. For what it is worth, the discussion at RS/N suggests that such RS's should be from more established sources

2092:

To repeat my earlier comment, I agree entirely with the page reflecting the mixed status of the term, but not with using the article space to actively promote the idea that the term is or is not offensive. As a tangent, I am not actually the person who added the POV-tag to the page. Whether the

2043:

I may be missing something here but both cases are true. It is commonly used in a derogatory fashion and, similar to other slurs, has been in part either adopted or reclaimed. It is still a despised term and any scientist who had the nerve to set up a classification would seem rather disreputable

1216:

In any case, the primary use of shemale is a description of a certain kind of gender/sex combination that many men are sexually and interpersonally attracted to. Yes, most transwomen find the term offensive, and that bears mention here. But most transwomen find being called "man" offensive, and

1204:

I strongly feel the initial line should be changed to something like, "Shemale is an English noun most commonly used in a popular subcategory of pornography to refer to persons who appear to be physically female in most regards, but possess male genitals. Many transsexual women consider the term

1136:

has reinstated an edit where a direct, fully sourced historical definition has been systematically rewritten to be completely nothing like the quote from the source. I will manually repair this for the 3rd time in the space of a few days, but I am giving notice that James Cantor has reverted this

886:

I further propose we lose all that junk about gynandromorph that's covered in the linked article, as well as the irrelevant butterfly image. The James Cantor version is heavily weighted toward the few academics who use the term uncritically (which includes academics who consider it a "scientific"

832:

are "Restricted to heterosexual use. The terms are not flattering." Dr. Melissa Hope Ditmore of the Trafficked Persons Rights Project writes of the current usage, "The term "she-male" is an invention of the sex industry, and most trans women find the term abhorrent." According to Professors Laura

502:

I appreciate your wanting to improve the article but much of that information is fine in the lede. I agree with moving the scientific bits to a below section as they are not what the average reader may expect but they still may benefit from the inclusion. This is a stub about a slang word and its

303:

Since I am not a "wikipedian," I am going to request advice from an admin regarding the COI and edits by User:Jokestress and User:James_Cantor. It seems to me at least that, however that system works, both users should be on the WP:COI notice board, especially concerning edits around Raymond and

187:

James, for the sentence "In some contexts, the term she-male is considered derogatory, and, in some contexts, not," you offered the Dictionary.com citation, but that source only refers to the term as derogatory. Do you have any citation for the claim that it is sometimes used otherwise? You also

244:

I agree entirely that there exist individuals who want to undergo some surgical procedures and not others. Just because a person's goal is partial transition does not make the procedures any less partial relative to the complete procedures that are available. The subjective feeling that one is

1798:

Other slang terms for she-male include ladyboy and chicks with dicks. The sexual preference for persons with these physical characteristics is gynandromorphophilia or gynemimetophilia. Slang terms for individuals with such preferences include "tranny chasers" and "admirers." There are specialty

1411:

I moved your revision to my comment to its own section. Please do not make changes to other editors' comments. As far as "shemale" only being a slur for women who are "fully transitioned," we need a source for that. According to the source in the article, it is a dehumanizing slur for all trans

279:

You appear to latch on to a small number of technical policy pages as defense for your actions on WP, actions that have included editing, in clear COI, articles about your coworkers and opposition without revealing your identity and accusations of using sock puppets. However, both sides of the

2178:

of the sources says anything approaching "almost all trans women" nor uses any term as laden as "abhorrent." The RS's do, however, contain what I have already said: There are people who find the term negative and there are people who find it neutral; the article should therefore reflect that.

1562:

I agree that the connotation belongs in the lede...Indeed, I have put it there myself. I disagree with using persuasive instead of descriptive language in so doing, however. Moreover, regarding any connotation, it is not possible (short of a formal analysis) ever to say what the connotation

192:

article, as even Blanchard and Money do not use the term "shemale" for pre-operative trans women. Finally, not to raise a million points at once, but the statement "undergone transition partially" implies that transition has one uniform course for all trans women, the natural end of which is

2289:

descriptors for low-end sources, written in a style to pursuade rather than merely inform readers. A section that is successfully NPOV would simply indicate the fact (there are folks who feel the term is derogatory) followed by the references to the folks saying so; indeed, that is how the

1357:'Reliable sources' are usually made by academics not in touch with the situation on the ground which represents the real view. Try Urban Dictionary for example. It is very likely 'reliable sources' have never personally known any 'Shemales' or even been in the 'Shemale' club or porn scene. 2235: 486:

This article is quite a mess. I have reorganized the usage information chronologically, and added better sources for the current usage. I have left some pretty bad sourcing in place for the moment. Online dictionaries should not be sources. I'll see if I can find better citations.

2190:

use the term to refer to postoperative folks, and Jokestress should either provide an RS showing they do or strike out her misstatement. Finally, although we collaborate on many projects, Blanchard is not my boss. Jokestress should provide evidence he is, or strike that out as

1272:

The term Shemale is specifically used for males with breast augmentation and not for partial mosaics, hermaphrodites and intersex individuals or surgical 'normalisation' procedures. I also agree with www.viptravesti.net that labelling the term pejorative is rather misleading.

2018:

Rather than merely indicate the alternative uses, however, the article space is becoming another WP battleground on which community activists selectively cite the uses that they prefer and attempt to discredit those who do otherwise. (That is, instead of the article saying

438:

I can't find any indication that the image has any relevance to the subject. It appears to have been added more than once without discussion by an editor who has done nothing else with this article. The image may well be of a woman and its insertion here may be contrary to

902:

the article is greatly expanded - I'm not sure I would find that a good thing - we would need to greatly delve into the sex trade usages as that seems to be where the vast majority of usage is. I've tried to meld some of the sources presented into the last somewhat stable

248:

I have no opposition to arbitration. However, WP policy is to exhaust the other methods first. If your intent, however, is not to participate in any good faith discussion to improve the page until arbitration become the only method available, then you're edits are

146:

This article relies very heavily on the Etymology section, which essentially reprints the entire source. That source is questionable. It also relies heavily on quotes that are only cited with ISBN numbers. So, it certainly needs more "meat" and more references.

415:

The current image is quite disturbing, IMHO. Scratching a transwoman's eyes out seems quite unneeded. Is this image suitable here? If so I think it should be cleaned up to restore her face and a caption to add more about who and where she is and what she's doing.

790:

I propose that we split out early usage from the current usage. Cassell's gives reliably-sourced citations for early uses, including being used to describe lesbians. The term is currently exclusively used to describe transwomen who have not had vaginoplasty.

1156:

OK, POV tag needs to be accompanied by actionable items so we can address and, if needed fix items. No one's is suggesting the article is perfect but are there specific POV concerns that you feel should be addressed? If not this tag should probably go.

1318:

for any of the above comments, you're welcome to do so. I do expect, however, that some statements such as "The term Shemale is specifically used for males with breast augmentation" will not be able to be reliably referenced, as it's not accurate.

628:

This article and its talk page have a long history of discussion of the wording of the article, and I'd urge anyone wanting to radically alter it, such as the removal of the word "derogatory" from the opening sentence, to read the talk page

1546:

This term is a slur, and the intro needs to explain that while we discuss changes. I have compromised and allowed my proposed edits to be taken down, but I must insist on this reference to remain in the lede while we work out the rest.

1472:

In all the RS's providing definitions, notes about negative connotations are included only in the definitions that refer to transsexuals (or similar term). The definitions refering to mixed anatomical status lack notes about negative

2139:, and pornographers. Almost all trans women find the term and the people who use it abhorrent, as noted in the reliable source. Contorting this into some sort of value-neutral term is just another attempt to insert the POV of your 1973:

Because the scientific RS's fail to support the activists' POV, no resolution is likely without substantial input from otherwise uninvolved editors. I recommend reading the arguments and sources, and asserting your own

2027:) This pattern has played through a great many of the trans-related articles. Rather than precipitate a repeat conflict, however, I instead encourage you to read the article and sources and come to your own opinion. 1743:

It asserts as fact what is instead an opinion of activist(s). (The opinions of activists can certainly be relevant and should be included, of course; the problem is when those opinions are falsely asserted as

1179:

The POV tag pertains to the image, which is appropriate on gynandromorph but not here. If you have a reliable source discussing "shemale" butterflies, please provide it, and we can discuss its inclusion.

1733:

Providing alternative definitions of slang terms in order of generality is arbitrary. (It also buries the actual information again.) It is routine in WP to go from most common use to least common use.

1730:

Starting a definition with historical commentary instead of the definition is prolix. It buries the actual information. It is routine in WP to start with the definition before etymological commentary.

2016:) over terms that do not, and the term "she-male" contains includes the word "male" rather than "female." The term is used non-pejoratively, however, by sex trade workers and in sex research studies. 844:

for a transsexual woman would be considered highly offensive and inaccurate, for it (not necessarily) implies that she is working "in the trade and retains her male genitalia." It may be considered

689:, so that's not quite accurate. Some people might object grammatically to the third-person plural "their." Finally, some people insist that "transsexual" only be applied to people who have had 623:

is about temporary methods of artificially enhancing cleavage, so its presence here would imply inclusion of non-operative cross-dressers, which contradicts "transsexual". That doesn't belong.

2162:

When WP becomes What-Jokestress-Says-Pedia, then what Jokestress says about "almost all trans women" might be relevant (as if she spoke for almost all transwomen). Meanwhile, all we have is

1712:

I recommend organizing the article to discuss the earliest uses (mainly agressive women), then use in zoology, then finally its use as a slur/porn term for trans women. Comments welcome.

298:

WP and their continued publication of reliable sources that can be utilized by non-conflicted WP editors to speak for them rather than to keep trying to engage in the dispute here on WP.

254:

be to an article. (Incidentally, although I am of course a fan and colleague of Blanchard, I have little respect for Money. Yet, I was quite able to treat them equally in my edit.)

443:. We don't know because there is not enough information attached to the image. I have therefore removed the image pending some explanation of its origin to justify its inclusion. -- 336: 1928:. I also added a reference for the word derogatory. I also believe that we should have a section called "academic use" vs. "scientific/medical use." Separating the ideologies of 2317: 943: 1567:. All anyone ever can do is describe what various folks opin about it, and people differ on this one. Assertions about what "is" or about "reality" are merely 2378: 2093:

current content of the page accurately conveys what is said in the cites, or adds a spin of its own, is up to you to decide for yourself after reading the RS's.

218:

a clear violation of WP policy. I suggest, therefore, that if you disagree with the decision to revert the edit, you should immediately request arbitration.

188:

cite Blanchard and Money, two individuals whose views of trans issues are very controversial, but also the technical terms they coined might best fit into the

1837:

choose to discuss the lede by proposing one, but when someone responds to it and proposes a different lede, you decide instead not to discuss the lede at all?

1386:

should not be used as it confuses Transsexuals with Shemales. I remind - term is generally acceptable for shemales, especially those in the adult industry.

1705: 752:

The James Cantor version was clearer even if a bit convoluted - the excessive information, IMHO, pointed people off this article to more informative ones.

1531:, who is not "fully transitioned" (to use your term). The journalist who thought that slur was an acceptable term finally got the clue and apologized. 604:

Reasons: there's no reason to make this definition convoluted. This should be clear and easy to understand for a lay audience. Comments welcome.

1217:

that doesn't mean the article on "man" should begin: "Man is most notable for its slang use in a pejorative context against transgender women".

685:

That seems OK, but it would be good to keep the word "person" after "transsexual." Also, in some cases the term includes people who have had an

1251: 1235: 1280: 554: 234:

I am not in a conflict of interest. On WP, I am permitted not only to cite the RS works of my colleagues, I am also permitted to cite

1442: 1402: 1364: 1302: 1221: 2270: 1035: 1020: 1001: 834: 305: 219: 198: 158: 1458:

IP 60.53.170.20 is correct that the term "transwomen" is ambiguous and should not be used. Indeed, the word transwomen appears in

824:; videos and magazines involving such people are a common sub-genre of pornography. According to anthropologist Philip H. Herbst, 347:

from editing those pages, then I believe you will have done WP a great service. Meanwhile, you are admonishing the one of us who

2234:

As for RS's for neutral definitions: The Oxford English Dictionary makes explicit when terms have negative connotations, and the

795:

two paragraphs: critics and proponents. I added three sources to help weigh the article more accurately regarding current usage:

2227:

of the cites support your claim, a response of "Go find the cite yourself" essentially proves my point. There is no such cite.

2326: 1056: 952: 837: 1205:

offensive because it suggests pre-operative and non-operative male-to-female transsexuals are something other than female."

1675: 597: 570: 566: 2319:

Wimmin, Wimps & Wallflowers: An Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Gender and Sexual orientation Bias in The United States

945:

Wimmin, Wimps & Wallflowers: An Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Gender and Sexual orientation Bias in The United States

2241:

Finally, given that you have also failed to produce any RS's about who my boss is (nor for Blanchard or Bailey's use

2075:

MtF folks who have socially transitioned but not undergone gential surgery (e.g., masculine lesbians or MtF folk who

1614:

lines." This includes assertive women and passive men in its most general sense. The term has sometimes been used in

1469:

IP 60.53.170.20 is correct also that definitions should go from most to least common. Indeed, that is WP convention.

1070:

Blanchard, R., & Collins, P. I. (1993). Men with sexual interest in transvestites, transsexuals, and she males.

1031:

Serano, Julia (2007). "Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity. Seal press,

323:

in fact edit the controversy sections of trans-related pages. Several months ago, I entered into an agreement with

1591:

The lede below is designed to describe 150+ years of uses, from the most general sense to the most specific sense.

1476:

Jokestress is correct, however, that it is considered inappropriate on WP to edit other editors talk-page comments.

38: 887:

category, and academics who use it in its more common form, as a term of abuse, like Raymond). Comments welcome.

194: 157:

There isn't much article to this article and what there is does not meet the standards expected of Knowledge.

1740:'s at all) over the stronger and more numerous sources, including multiple, peer-reviewed, scholarly journals. 1255: 1239: 1284: 1137:

page to a clearly vandalised version and will request administrator intervention if such actions continue. --

1764:. I propose instead returning to the version of 13:43, 3 November 2009 , which I place below for reference. 1368: 1324: 1306: 1225: 1142: 672: 667:

Then expand into a more technical description complete with the other wikilinks further into the article. --

448: 2274: 154:. The result seems to be an very poorly written attempt at compromise between herself and several others. 150:

Also, it appears to have been largely influenced by a now-banned and apparently highly biased contributor,

2298: 2253: 2197: 2117: 2099: 2033: 1979: 1847: 1805: 1770: 1577: 1491: 1438: 1398: 365: 357: 260: 177: 89: 84: 72: 67: 59: 1568: 309: 245:"complete" after a partial transition does not make the transition any less partial relative to biology. 223: 202: 162: 1434: 1394: 124:

concerns apply to all editors so relying on reliable sources is likely the best course of improvement.

2143:

colleague/buddy/etc. This article is a big mess thanks to drive-by edits. It lacks cohesion and fails

1882: 1815:

Let's get the rest of the article organized, then we'll deal with all the problems in the lede above.

1520:

We could split out its use as a synonym for faggot, etc. into a separate section from the trans usage.

241:

I have no problem with the removal of either the dictionary.com ref, nor the statement it accompanied.

2266: 2212: 2152: 1941: 1898: 1862: 1820: 1717: 1552: 1536: 1528: 1430: 1417: 1390: 1360: 1298: 1276: 1247: 1231: 1185: 892: 735: 620: 609: 562: 492: 1936:

is a POV move. Both hold the same points of view about the terms she-male and about trans people.

1856:

I proposed writing the lede after we get everything in the article organized a couple of days ago.

331:

he nor I would edit there, and I have restricted my edits to the talkpages ever since, exactly as

2394: 2045: 1990: 1952: 1643: 1336: 1320: 1158: 1138: 1109: 908: 760: 668: 504: 458: 444: 417: 394: 125: 2333: 2184:

me) that also provide only neutral definitions, like Blanchard, devoid of negative connotation.)

2109: 959: 1426:

Should start with common and current uses, because that is what most users will be looking for.

2375: 2341: 2323: 2294: 2286: 2249: 2193: 2136: 2113: 2095: 2029: 1975: 1917: 1843: 1801: 1766: 1573: 1487: 1133: 1053: 1032: 1017: 998: 967: 949: 361: 353: 256: 173: 759:

always derogatory and it has been applied to a host of trans people including drag queens.

270:

WP:COI states, "avoid, or exercise great caution when: 1. Editing articles related to you,

2423: 2407: 2354: 2208: 2148: 2144: 1937: 1894: 1858: 1816: 1753: 1713: 1647: 1548: 1532: 1413: 1181: 980: 888: 731: 634:

I believe that a less technical description would be better. Something along the lines of:

605: 558: 488: 340: 284:

pillar ("Knowledge describes disputes. Knowledge does not engage in disputes") as well as

812:, and other terms with similar connotations, are commonly, but not exclusively, used in 2128: 1933: 1799:

genres of pornography and prostitution/escort services that cater to such individuals.

1761: 854: 281: 151: 113: 2132: 1929: 1925: 1913: 1757: 1619: 875: 870: 440: 390: 332: 324: 285: 238:

RS works on the topic (although I did not do so here). WP:COI/N is at your disposal.

121: 2441: 1890: 1886: 1749: 1737: 1679: 1607: 1315: 821: 716: 690: 542: 393:

concerns are heightened when using someone's image for a a pejoratively used term.

117: 47: 17: 1527:

is applied. The GLAAD statement was released when "she-male" was used to describe

848:." Author Julia Serano writes that the term is "derogatory or sensationalistic." 2437: 2369: 1687: 1659: 1503:

Let's leave the lede till last, then. I propose three (possibly four) sections:

813: 712: 686: 649: 589: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

2071:

In general, the term 'shemale' is considered derogatory when applied to people

2371:

International Exposure: Perspectives on Modern European Pornography, 1800-2000

1701: 1671: 866: 593: 546: 189: 1201:

the claim that "shemale" is most commonly used in the sex industry, however.

873:

has also used the term to describe transwomen and considers it a synonym of

817: 657: 2302: 2278: 2257: 2216: 2201: 2156: 2121: 2103: 2060: 2037: 2005: 1983: 1967: 1945: 1902: 1866: 1851: 1824: 1809: 1774: 1721: 1642:

Its most common contemporary usage is to describe humans in the context of

1581: 1556: 1540: 1495: 1421: 1372: 1351: 1328: 1288: 1259: 1189: 1173: 1146: 1126: 923: 775: 739: 676: 613: 519: 496: 473: 452: 432: 409: 369: 313: 264: 227: 206: 181: 166: 140: 1335:

Agreed, we follow what reliable sources states not what we want to write.

1663: 1634: 862: 2025:

This term means only this one thing and all dissenters are transphobic.

1692: 1683: 1651: 1615: 808: 1840:

The body will still be there after the lede, and WP has no time limit.

1627: 1611: 550: 2245:

for postoperative MtF folks), you also have some striking-out to do.

2021:

Some people use the term this way while other people use it that way

2080:

their personal (and non-expert) opinions about the use of the term

1630: 1603: 845: 715:

person who has the general appearance of a female but has not had

653: 1083:

Money, J. (1984). Paraphilias: Phenomenology and classification.

1623: 865:

point of view, transsexuals constitute an attack by males upon

1655: 25: 2231:

than the online dictionaries currently appearing on the page.

652:

who has the general appearance of a female but retains their

2438:

GLAAD Condemns "Dehumanizing" Page Six New York Post Column.

2108:

I have asked for input regarding the online dictionaries

1736:

It favors the weakest sources (which are questionable as

1412:

women, regardless of what steps they take to transition.

120:. Disagreements can be resolved by discussing issues and 1513:

LGBT uses (especially sex work/porn use for trans women)

327:(an old friend and former employee of Lynn Conway) that 1462:

of the RS's providing a definition of she-male. It is

112:

Content need to conform to standard policies including

2238:

contains none of the OED's usual notes to that effect.

2166:

of the sources (of debatable reliability) saying that

2127:

When referring to trans women, this is a term used by

1726:

I do not believe that that proposed lede is workable:

2174:circumstances (such as when refering to lesbians). 1920:, made to align the the article with the POV of his 1228:) 20:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC) www.viptravesti.net 693:, so maybe the general term "transgender" is better. 2147:by trying to present this as a value-neutral term. 1700:. In this context, it is considered a dehumanizing 1052:, New York: Teachers College, Columbia University, 2285:I agree. The connotations section is a string of 859:The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male 853:The term has been used by some academics, notably 711:) is a derogatory slang term for a male-to-female 648:) is a derogatory slang term for a male-to-female 280:ongoing controversy would do well to consider the 1622:, non-human animals that display combinations of 1014:News and Sexuality: Media Portraits of Diversity. 1108:quote switched out for clearer and neutral one. 588:) is a derogatory slang term for male-to-female 1889:. Please discuss proposed changes here, adding 1610:for "almost anyone who appears to have bridged 1466:who is again missing references for her claims. 1708:, and most transwomen find the term abhorrent. 8: 1706:Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation 1072:Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, 181, 1507:Original uses (especially assertive women) 1012:Castañeda , Laura and Shannon B. Campbell 995:Encyclopedia of Prostitution and Sex Work. 2374:. Rutgers University Press. pp. 254–271. 2263:and does not help separate and clarify. 1606:term used in various ways since the mid- 2308: 2170:people object to the term when used in 1989:What's the main issue in your opinion? 1912:I have re-added the NPOV tag following 934: 335:suggests. You can find that agreement 2419: 2415: 2403: 2392: 2350: 2339: 1780:Lede version of 13:43, 3 November 2009 1085:American Journal of Psychotherapy, 38, 976: 965: 833:Castañeda and Shannon Campbell at the 319:You procede from a false belief: I do 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 541:) is a slang term for male-to-female 7: 1510:Non-human uses (bears, snakes, etc.) 2023:the article is being pushed to say 1670:has become closely associated with 1094:Repeated damaging of a direct quote 530:The James Cantor version has this: 2186:Moreover, Blanchard and Bailey do 1881:I reverted much of the changes by 1791:but almost never used in the form 24: 2436:Staff report (October 05, 2007). 2322:, Intercultural Press, p. 252-3, 1748:Thus, the proposed lead violates 948:, Intercultural Press, p. 252-3, 786:Splitting usage into two sections 2084:rather than the use of the term 1099: 857:, whose controversial 1979 book 380: 103: 29: 1650:. It has been used to describe 549:) who have breasts of an adult 360:) 23:09, 30 October 2008 (UTC) 1571:and will not resolve anything. 1242:) 10:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC) 993:Ditmore, Melissa Hope (2006). 838:Annenberg School of Journalism 1: 1946:16:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC) 1676:secondary sex characteristics 1373:21:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC) 1190:22:05, 22 December 2008 (UTC) 1174:20:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC) 1127:01:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC) 924:02:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC) 776:00:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC) 567:secondary sex characteristics 520:01:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC) 474:02:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC) 453:11:13, 13 November 2008 (UTC) 433:02:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC) 2303:16:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC) 2279:02:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC) 2258:22:44, 1 November 2009 (UTC) 2217:22:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC) 2202:20:30, 1 November 2009 (UTC) 2157:19:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC) 2122:18:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC) 2104:18:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC) 2061:20:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC) 2038:14:16, 19 October 2009 (UTC) 2006:16:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC) 1984:15:52, 17 October 2009 (UTC) 1968:04:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC) 1903:06:43, 6 November 2009 (UTC) 1867:23:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC) 1852:23:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC) 1825:23:07, 6 November 2009 (UTC) 1810:23:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC) 1775:23:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC) 1722:22:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC) 1582:00:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC) 1557:00:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC) 1541:16:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC) 1496:13:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC) 1422:06:15, 4 November 2009 (UTC) 1244:http://www.viptravesti.net 1147:07:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC) 997:Greenwood Publishing Group, 740:07:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC) 677:07:05, 4 December 2008 (UTC) 614:15:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC) 598:genital reassignment surgery 571:genital reassignment surgery 565:) and may have other female 497:02:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC) 410:12:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC) 370:23:09, 30 October 2008 (UTC) 314:22:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC) 265:14:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC) 228:06:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC) 207:05:36, 30 October 2008 (UTC) 182:22:15, 29 October 2008 (UTC) 167:19:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC) 141:12:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC) 1662:people. Through its use in 1352:06:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC) 1329:04:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC) 555:hormone replacement therapy 2461: 2406:value: invalid character ( 2316:Herbst, Philip H. (2001), 1196:NPOV on perjorative claims 1097: 942:Herbst, Philip H. (2001), 378: 101: 2380:0813535190, 9780813535197 1289:18:54, 26 July 2009 (UTC) 1260:10:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 596:) who have not undergone 569:, but have not undergone 1951:has this been resolved? 1379:Comments by 60.53.170.20 195:sex reassignment surgery 2368:Sigel, Lisa Z. (2005). 2223:After I point out that 1833:Lemme get this right... 1678:but have not undergone 339:. If you can convince 2349:Check date values in: 2236:OED entry for she-male 1050:The Transsexual Empire 975:Check date values in: 1587:Proposed introduction 42:of past discussions. 1877:Edits by 60.54.97.17 1048:Raymond, J. (1994), 621:cleavage enhancement 563:cleavage enhancement 343:to restrict herself 1316:reliable references 1314:If you can provide 861:argues that from a 98:Request for rewrite 2414:Unknown parameter 1885:because they were 1644:sexual orientation 840:, "Using the term 730:Comments welcome. 482:Commencing rewrite 216:unprofessional and 2269:comment added by 2137:J. Michael Bailey 1918:User:James Cantor 1887:original research 1704:according to the 1698:chicks with dicks 1618:as a synonym for 1447: 1433:comment added by 1407: 1393:comment added by 1363:comment added by 1301:comment added by 1279:comment added by 1250:comment added by 1234:comment added by 1134:User:James Cantor 820:, and associated 272:your organization 95: 94: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 2452: 2445: 2434: 2428: 2427: 2421: 2417: 2411: 2405: 2400: 2398: 2390: 2388: 2387: 2365: 2359: 2358: 2352: 2347: 2345: 2337: 2336: 2313: 2281: 2057: 2051: 2002: 1996: 1964: 1958: 1891:reliable sources 1883:User:60.54.97.17 1674:who have female 1446: 1427: 1406: 1387: 1375: 1348: 1342: 1310: 1291: 1262: 1243: 1170: 1165: 1162: 1129: 1123: 1118: 1115: 1103: 1102: 1088: 1081: 1075: 1068: 1062: 1061: 1045: 1039: 1029: 1023: 1010: 1004: 991: 985: 984: 978: 973: 971: 963: 962: 939: 920: 914: 881:gynemimetomorph. 772: 766: 577:I propose this: 526:Opening sentence 516: 510: 470: 464: 429: 423: 412: 406: 400: 389:Image replaced, 384: 383: 171:Strongly agreed. 143: 137: 131: 107: 106: 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 2460: 2459: 2455: 2454: 2453: 2451: 2450: 2449: 2448: 2435: 2431: 2413: 2401: 2391: 2385: 2383: 2381: 2367: 2366: 2362: 2348: 2338: 2331: 2329: 2315: 2314: 2310: 2264: 2055: 2049: 2000: 1994: 1962: 1956: 1910: 1879: 1782: 1648:gender identity 1589: 1428: 1388: 1381: 1358: 1346: 1340: 1296: 1274: 1245: 1229: 1198: 1168: 1163: 1160: 1154: 1130: 1121: 1116: 1111: 1107: 1105: 1100: 1096: 1091: 1082: 1078: 1069: 1065: 1059: 1047: 1046: 1042: 1030: 1026: 1011: 1007: 992: 988: 974: 964: 957: 955: 941: 940: 936: 932: 918: 912: 869:. Psychologist 788: 770: 764: 559:breast implants 528: 514: 508: 484: 468: 462: 427: 421: 413: 404: 398: 388: 386: 381: 377: 341:user:Jokestress 144: 135: 129: 111: 109: 104: 100: 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 2458: 2456: 2447: 2446: 2429: 2379: 2360: 2327: 2307: 2306: 2305: 2295:— James Cantor 2292: 2291: 2250:— James Cantor 2247: 2246: 2239: 2232: 2228: 2220: 2219: 2194:— James Cantor 2192: 2185: 2160: 2159: 2129:Janice Raymond 2114:— James Cantor 2096:— James Cantor 2094: 2089: 2068: 2064: 2063: 2030:— James Cantor 2028: 2017: 2009: 2008: 1976:— James Cantor 1971: 1970: 1934:Janice Raymond 1909: 1906: 1878: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1872: 1871: 1870: 1869: 1844:— James Cantor 1841: 1838: 1828: 1827: 1802:— James Cantor 1800: 1781: 1778: 1767:— James Cantor 1765: 1746: 1745: 1741: 1734: 1731: 1710: 1709: 1639: 1638: 1588: 1585: 1574:— James Cantor 1572: 1569:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 1560: 1559: 1524: 1523: 1522: 1521: 1515: 1514: 1511: 1508: 1501: 1500: 1499: 1498: 1488:— James Cantor 1482: 1481: 1480: 1479: 1478: 1477: 1474: 1470: 1467: 1451: 1450: 1449: 1448: 1380: 1377: 1355: 1354: 1332: 1331: 1252:78.165.133.166 1236:81.215.120.118 1197: 1194: 1193: 1192: 1153: 1150: 1098: 1095: 1092: 1090: 1089: 1076: 1063: 1057: 1040: 1024: 1005: 986: 953: 933: 931: 928: 927: 926: 904: 884: 883: 855:Janice Raymond 850: 849: 822:sex industries 787: 784: 783: 782: 781: 780: 779: 778: 745: 744: 743: 742: 725: 724: 723: 722: 721: 720: 697: 696: 695: 694: 680: 679: 664: 663: 662: 661: 636: 635: 631: 630: 625: 624: 602: 601: 575: 574: 527: 524: 523: 522: 483: 480: 479: 478: 477: 476: 379: 376: 373: 362:— James Cantor 354:— James Cantor 352: 317: 316: 300: 299: 290: 289: 276: 275: 257:— James Cantor 255: 251: 250: 246: 242: 239: 231: 230: 210: 209: 174:— James Cantor 172: 152:User:Lara bran 102: 99: 96: 93: 92: 87: 82: 75: 70: 65: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 2457: 2444: 2443: 2439: 2433: 2430: 2425: 2409: 2396: 2382: 2377: 2373: 2372: 2364: 2361: 2356: 2343: 2335: 2330: 2325: 2321: 2320: 2312: 2309: 2304: 2300: 2296: 2293: 2288: 2284: 2283: 2282: 2280: 2276: 2272: 2268: 2260: 2259: 2255: 2251: 2244: 2240: 2237: 2233: 2229: 2226: 2222: 2221: 2218: 2214: 2210: 2206: 2205: 2204: 2203: 2199: 2195: 2189: 2182: 2177: 2173: 2169: 2165: 2158: 2154: 2150: 2146: 2142: 2138: 2134: 2133:Ray Blanchard 2130: 2126: 2125: 2124: 2123: 2119: 2115: 2111: 2106: 2105: 2101: 2097: 2090: 2087: 2083: 2078: 2074: 2069: 2062: 2059: 2058: 2052: 2042: 2041: 2040: 2039: 2035: 2031: 2026: 2022: 2015: 2007: 2004: 2003: 1997: 1988: 1987: 1986: 1985: 1981: 1977: 1969: 1966: 1965: 1959: 1950: 1949: 1948: 1947: 1943: 1939: 1935: 1931: 1930:Ray Blanchard 1927: 1926:Ray Blanchard 1923: 1919: 1915: 1908:NPOV re-added 1907: 1905: 1904: 1900: 1896: 1892: 1888: 1884: 1876: 1868: 1864: 1860: 1857: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1849: 1845: 1842: 1839: 1836: 1832: 1831: 1830: 1829: 1826: 1822: 1818: 1814: 1813: 1812: 1811: 1807: 1803: 1796: 1794: 1790: 1786: 1779: 1777: 1776: 1772: 1768: 1763: 1759: 1755: 1751: 1742: 1739: 1735: 1732: 1729: 1728: 1727: 1724: 1723: 1719: 1715: 1707: 1703: 1699: 1695: 1694: 1689: 1685: 1681: 1677: 1673: 1669: 1665: 1661: 1657: 1653: 1649: 1645: 1641: 1640: 1636: 1632: 1629: 1625: 1621: 1620:gynandromorph 1617: 1613: 1609: 1605: 1601: 1597: 1594: 1593: 1592: 1586: 1584: 1583: 1579: 1575: 1570: 1566: 1558: 1554: 1550: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1542: 1538: 1534: 1530: 1519: 1518: 1517: 1516: 1512: 1509: 1506: 1505: 1504: 1497: 1493: 1489: 1486: 1485: 1484: 1483: 1475: 1471: 1468: 1465: 1461: 1457: 1456: 1455: 1454: 1453: 1452: 1444: 1440: 1436: 1432: 1425: 1424: 1423: 1419: 1415: 1410: 1409: 1408: 1404: 1400: 1396: 1392: 1385: 1378: 1376: 1374: 1370: 1366: 1362: 1353: 1350: 1349: 1343: 1334: 1333: 1330: 1326: 1322: 1321:AliceJMarkham 1317: 1313: 1312: 1311: 1308: 1304: 1300: 1292: 1290: 1286: 1282: 1281:60.53.173.207 1278: 1270: 1267: 1263: 1261: 1257: 1253: 1249: 1241: 1237: 1233: 1227: 1223: 1218: 1214: 1210: 1206: 1202: 1195: 1191: 1187: 1183: 1178: 1177: 1176: 1175: 1172: 1171: 1151: 1149: 1148: 1144: 1140: 1139:AliceJMarkham 1135: 1128: 1125: 1124: 1114: 1093: 1086: 1080: 1077: 1073: 1067: 1064: 1060: 1055: 1051: 1044: 1041: 1037: 1036:9781580051545 1034: 1028: 1025: 1022: 1021:9781412909990 1019: 1015: 1009: 1006: 1003: 1002:9780313329685 1000: 996: 990: 987: 982: 969: 961: 956: 951: 947: 946: 938: 935: 929: 925: 922: 921: 915: 905: 901: 898: 897: 896: 894: 890: 882: 878: 877: 876:gynandromorph 872: 871:Ray Blanchard 868: 864: 860: 856: 852: 851: 847: 843: 839: 836: 831: 827: 823: 819: 815: 811: 810: 805: 802:, along with 801: 798: 797: 796: 792: 785: 777: 774: 773: 767: 758: 755: 751: 750: 749: 748: 747: 746: 741: 737: 733: 729: 728: 727: 726: 718: 714: 710: 706: 703: 702: 701: 700: 699: 698: 692: 688: 684: 683: 682: 681: 678: 674: 670: 669:AliceJMarkham 666: 665: 659: 655: 651: 647: 643: 640: 639: 638: 637: 633: 632: 627: 626: 622: 618: 617: 616: 615: 611: 607: 599: 595: 591: 587: 583: 580: 579: 578: 572: 568: 564: 560: 556: 552: 548: 544: 540: 536: 533: 532: 531: 525: 521: 518: 517: 511: 501: 500: 499: 498: 494: 490: 481: 475: 472: 471: 465: 456: 455: 454: 450: 446: 445:AliceJMarkham 442: 437: 436: 435: 434: 431: 430: 424: 411: 408: 407: 401: 392: 374: 372: 371: 367: 363: 359: 355: 350: 346: 342: 338: 334: 330: 326: 325:user:Dicklyon 322: 315: 311: 307: 302: 301: 297: 292: 291: 287: 283: 278: 277: 273: 269: 268: 267: 266: 262: 258: 247: 243: 240: 237: 233: 232: 229: 225: 221: 217: 212: 211: 208: 204: 200: 196: 191: 186: 185: 184: 183: 179: 175: 169: 168: 164: 160: 155: 153: 148: 142: 139: 138: 132: 123: 119: 115: 97: 91: 88: 86: 83: 80: 76: 74: 71: 69: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 2442:The Advocate 2440: 2432: 2422:suggested) ( 2384:. Retrieved 2370: 2363: 2351:|accessdate= 2332:, retrieved 2318: 2311: 2261: 2248: 2242: 2224: 2187: 2180: 2175: 2171: 2167: 2163: 2161: 2140: 2107: 2091: 2085: 2081: 2076: 2072: 2070: 2065: 2053: 2047: 2024: 2020: 2013: 2010: 1998: 1992: 1972: 1960: 1954: 1921: 1911: 1880: 1834: 1797: 1792: 1788: 1784: 1783: 1747: 1725: 1711: 1697: 1691: 1680:vaginoplasty 1667: 1608:19th century 1599: 1595: 1590: 1564: 1561: 1525: 1502: 1473:connotation. 1463: 1459: 1435:60.53.170.20 1395:60.53.170.20 1383: 1382: 1365:60.50.33.159 1356: 1344: 1338: 1303:75.70.30.120 1293: 1271: 1268: 1264: 1222:75.180.20.49 1219: 1215: 1211: 1207: 1203: 1199: 1166: 1155: 1132:I note that 1131: 1119: 1112: 1084: 1079: 1071: 1066: 1049: 1043: 1027: 1013: 1008: 994: 989: 977:|accessdate= 958:, retrieved 944: 937: 916: 910: 899: 885: 880: 874: 858: 841: 829: 825: 807: 803: 799: 793: 789: 768: 762: 756: 753: 717:vaginoplasty 708: 704: 691:vaginoplasty 645: 641: 619:The article 603: 585: 581: 576: 543:transsexuals 538: 534: 529: 512: 506: 485: 466: 460: 457:Fine by me. 425: 419: 414: 402: 396: 348: 344: 328: 320: 318: 295: 271: 252: 235: 215: 170: 156: 149: 145: 133: 127: 78: 43: 37: 18:Talk:Shemale 2416:|coauthors= 2271:60.49.45.68 2265:—Preceding 1974:conclusion. 1787:(sometimes 1688:pornography 1672:trans women 1666:, the term 1660:transgender 1598:(sometimes 1429:—Preceding 1389:—Preceding 1384:Trans women 1359:—Preceding 1297:—Preceding 1275:—Preceding 1246:—Preceding 1230:—Preceding 814:pornography 713:transgender 707:(sometimes 687:orchiectomy 650:transsexual 644:(sometimes 590:transsexual 584:(sometimes 537:(sometimes 306:24.185.6.40 249:tendacious. 220:24.185.6.40 199:24.185.6.40 159:24.185.6.40 36:This is an 2386:2008-12-14 2334:2007-10-25 2328:1877864803 2287:WP:PEACOCK 2209:Jokestress 2149:Jokestress 2086:in general 2073:other than 2014:transwoman 1938:Jokestress 1895:Jokestress 1859:Jokestress 1817:Jokestress 1714:Jokestress 1549:Jokestress 1533:Jokestress 1464:Jokestress 1414:Jokestress 1182:Jokestress 1058:0807762725 960:2007-10-25 954:1877864803 930:References 889:Jokestress 867:femininity 732:Jokestress 606:Jokestress 594:transwomen 547:transwomen 489:Jokestress 190:Transwoman 2418:ignored ( 2395:cite book 1924:coworker 1916:edits by 1893:. Thanks 1658:men, and 1635:behaviors 1038:, p. 175. 846:libellous 818:escorting 658:testicles 553:(through 351:with you. 90:Archive 7 85:Archive 6 79:Archive 5 73:Archive 4 68:Archive 3 60:Archive 1 2420:|author= 2342:citation 2267:unsigned 2243:she-male 2179:Because 2145:WP:UNDUE 2082:for them 1789:she-male 1754:WP:UNDUE 1690:include 1686:used in 1684:synonyms 1682:. Other 1664:sex work 1652:lesbians 1600:she-male 1443:contribs 1431:unsigned 1403:contribs 1391:unsigned 1361:unsigned 1299:unsigned 1277:unsigned 1248:unsigned 1232:unsigned 1104:Resolved 1087:164-178. 1074:570–575. 968:citation 903:version. 863:feminist 842:she-male 709:she-male 646:she-male 629:history. 592:people ( 586:she-male 539:she-male 385:Resolved 108:Resolved 2110:at RS/N 1793:she-man 1785:Shemale 1762:WP:NPOV 1744:facts.) 1693:ladyboy 1668:shemale 1616:zoology 1602:) is a 1596:Shemale 1152:POV tag 830:she man 826:shemale 809:ladyboy 800:Shemale 754:Shemale 705:Shemale 642:Shemale 582:Shemale 561:and/or 535:Shemale 329:neither 304:RS's. 296:outside 282:WP:NPOV 114:WP:NPOV 39:archive 2404:|isbn= 2402:Check 2181:no one 1914:WP:COI 1760:, and 1758:WP:MOS 1631:traits 1628:female 1612:gender 1529:Miriam 1016:SAGE, 804:tranny 757:is not 551:female 441:WP:BLP 391:WP:BLP 349:agrees 333:WP:COI 286:WP:DBF 236:my own 122:WP:COI 2191:well. 1750:WP:RS 1738:WP:RS 1604:slang 654:penis 375:Image 118:WP:RS 16:< 2424:help 2408:help 2376:ISBN 2355:help 2324:ISBN 2299:talk 2275:talk 2254:talk 2225:none 2213:talk 2198:talk 2176:None 2172:some 2168:some 2164:some 2153:talk 2141:boss 2118:talk 2100:talk 2077:have 2048:Banj 2034:talk 1993:Banj 1980:talk 1955:Banj 1942:talk 1932:and 1922:boss 1899:talk 1863:talk 1848:talk 1821:talk 1806:talk 1771:talk 1718:talk 1702:slur 1696:and 1626:and 1624:male 1578:talk 1553:talk 1537:talk 1492:talk 1460:none 1439:talk 1418:talk 1399:talk 1369:talk 1339:Banj 1325:talk 1307:talk 1285:talk 1256:talk 1240:talk 1226:talk 1186:talk 1161:Banj 1143:talk 1113:Banj 1054:ISBN 1033:ISBN 1018:ISBN 999:ISBN 981:help 950:ISBN 911:Banj 893:talk 879:and 828:and 763:Banj 736:talk 673:talk 656:and 610:talk 507:Banj 493:talk 461:Banj 449:talk 420:Banj 397:Banj 366:talk 358:talk 345:also 337:here 310:talk 261:talk 224:talk 203:talk 178:talk 163:talk 128:Banj 116:and 2188:not 2046:-- 1991:-- 1953:-- 1835:You 1656:gay 1646:or 1633:or 1337:-- 1159:-- 1110:-- 909:-- 835:USC 761:-- 505:-- 459:-- 418:-- 395:-- 321:not 126:-- 2412:; 2399:: 2397:}} 2393:{{ 2346:: 2344:}} 2340:{{ 2301:) 2277:) 2256:) 2215:) 2200:) 2155:) 2135:, 2131:, 2120:) 2102:) 2056:oi 2036:) 2001:oi 1982:) 1963:oi 1944:) 1901:) 1865:) 1850:) 1823:) 1808:) 1773:) 1756:, 1752:, 1720:) 1654:, 1580:) 1565:is 1555:) 1539:) 1494:) 1445:) 1441:• 1420:) 1405:) 1401:• 1371:) 1347:oi 1327:) 1319:-- 1309:) 1287:) 1258:) 1220:-- 1188:) 1169:oi 1145:) 1122:oi 1106:– 972:: 970:}} 966:{{ 919:oi 900:If 895:) 816:, 806:, 771:oi 738:) 675:) 612:) 557:, 515:oi 495:) 469:oi 451:) 428:oi 405:oi 387:– 368:) 312:) 263:) 226:) 205:) 180:) 165:) 136:oi 110:– 64:← 2426:) 2410:) 2389:. 2357:) 2353:( 2297:( 2273:( 2252:( 2211:( 2196:( 2151:( 2116:( 2112:. 2098:( 2088:. 2054:b 2050:e 2032:( 1999:b 1995:e 1978:( 1961:b 1957:e 1940:( 1897:( 1861:( 1846:( 1819:( 1804:( 1769:( 1716:( 1637:. 1576:( 1551:( 1535:( 1490:( 1437:( 1416:( 1397:( 1367:( 1345:b 1341:e 1323:( 1305:( 1283:( 1254:( 1238:( 1224:( 1184:( 1167:b 1164:e 1141:( 1120:b 1117:e 983:) 979:( 917:b 913:e 891:( 769:b 765:e 734:( 719:. 671:( 660:. 608:( 600:. 573:. 545:( 513:b 509:e 491:( 467:b 463:e 447:( 426:b 422:e 403:b 399:e 364:( 356:( 308:( 259:( 222:( 201:( 176:( 161:( 134:b 130:e 50:.

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.

Index