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relating their meaning and etymology upon a quick glance. It is also far easier than any tonal language to pronounce, and doesn't even have the strange accent of French or the accent issues of many other languages. Not only that, but unlike
English, the basic grammar forms are quite straightforward and logical, and have very few exceptions. Talk to a Japanese (or just about anyone who doesn't speak English as their first language) and I can practically guarantee that they have tons of trouble with spelling - that doesn't happen in Japanese, as *everything* is pronounced precisely the way the kana spelling indicates.
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totally different but said by a
Japanese speaker (or English speaker in this case) is just sho (in the case of "shogun" it is actually shō, a long o which in Japanese Romaji usually written shou) so that the word "sho" in Japanese can mean a few different things, more precisely, more than a few kanji can have the same "sho" as it's reading or yomikata. - (笙 - shō) (将 - shō) (少 - shō) --
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Comprehensiveness is also an issue. This is a huge subject with the potential for a lot more information to be added. The history section is fairly minimal and should be beefed up with more facts. The impact of imperialism on the
Shogunate is an interesting subject that has no coverage here. Also
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I have removed the line "Even though westerners mistook them as shoguns, they were not actually shoguns at all." which has gone uncited since August. Western documents from that period, almost without exception, refer to
Hideyoshi, Ieyasu, and the other Tokugawa shoguns (and perhaps Nobunaga as well)
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Hm... at some point, somebody moved a large chunk of the references down into the "further reading" section (including the contents of the now-fixed 4th ref you mentioned) -- perhaps that wasn't the best idea, in this light. Live and learn. I've restored a few of them to their previous positions, and
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Were shoguns addressed by a standardized
European style? Would European diplomatic missives have been addresse to "Son Altesse le Shogun de Japon," or some such? One would imagine that, at least between Perry's opening of Japan and the end of the Shogunate, this would have been addressed. (My hours
2178:
Right now the third paragraph opens with a note that it's often thought that the shogun must be descended from the
Minamoto, but that this isn't accurate. There are citations for non-Minamotos like Nobunaga becoming shogun later in the paragraph, but I think the initial claim (that some say you have
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I guess in those ways it is a pretty easy language. Maybe more like, easy to learn, hard to master? Yeah it doesn't have tones or weird influxes so the initial get up and go might seem easier, but the number of near native speakers of
Japanese vs most other languages is a lot smaller, like Spanish
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Most
European documents of the time referred to the Shogun as "King of Japan" or whatever the equivalent may have been in the English/Dutch/Portuguese/Spanish/German/Russian of the time. The Europeans seemed for the most part quite confused, or oblivious, of the presence or role of the Emperor, or
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No, and I think another RM should take place; the previous RM saw a pitifully small amount of participation, mostly from non-specialist editors and based on a dubious reading of dictionaries that also list the macronated spelling, without any regard for how the word is most commonly spelled in
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Japanese is one of the hardest languages to learn because of these many syllables all representing different meanings. This is mostly due to the limitations of the language itself, only a handful of options (about 80, modernly). A lot of the words were taken from
Chinese where shò and shó are
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Actually, it's one of the easiest in my opinion, since there aren't nearly as many different verb conjugations as in most
Western languages, there's only two irregular verbs, and no masculine/feminine agreement issues. The kanji do a far better job than spelled-out words in other languages of
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shoguns. They were military dictators who wielded as much power as any of their predecessors or successors. While the shoguates of Nobunaga and Hideyoshi were not elective, the latter designated his son to be his successor while still a child. As "de facto" shoguns, they must be mentioned.
1538:, which says "An English loan word or place name of Japanese origin should be used in its most common English form in the body of an article, even if it is pronounced or spelled differently from the properly romanized Japanese . . ." This article should stay with the present title.
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de facto and formally recognized are two different things in Japanese history - a commoner like Hideyoshi had no chance of ever becoming Shogun - hence, he was 'chief advisor' or Kwampaku, later Taiko 'retired regent.' Nobunaga never had supreme power, but he made a great effort.
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states, "Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Anno Domini/Common Era, but when events span the start of the Anno Domini/Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range (note that AD precedes the date and CE follows it). For example,
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I disagree. The English word is "shogun" and it is found in reliable dictionaries with no macron. It is a loanword of Japanese origin, but is now part of the English language. It is the correct title according to the relevant naming convention,
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This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of July 19, 2007, compares against the
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There are several sections that either have no citations or only have one citation. The article should be better references. I've added a couple of templates to help identify some of the areas where citations are
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They may have been the Ainu, but the people who lived in today's Tohoku region may not have been necesarrily the Ainu, or more accurately, it is not known who they were. The only person whose name is known is
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Oh, yeah, I know what you meant. When writing in romaji or in kana, or for that matter, in speaking, it can be really difficult to distinguish between different words. Didn't mean to jump down your throat...
1231:"He became the practical ruler of Japan, and received the title sei-i taishōgun.", the entire Heian period section... normally I wouldn't complain about that except the main article doesn't cite references.
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A redirect has recently been created from the above to this article, though the word doesn't occur in the article as far as I can see, so there's no evidence why it's a useful redirect. Any thoughts?
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It has been a week with no apparent work done on my suggestions. As such I will delist the article. Should editors disagree with this decision please bring the issue to the
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for example. BUT, that wasn't the point of my post, i was just saying that Japanese uses the same "word" (if you can call it that: "shō" or "kyō") for multiple meanings. --
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Now that the article has been moved to Shogun (without the macron), should instances of "Shōgun" within the article be changed? Should the macron be kept in phrases like
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I think the word "overcomes" (in "great generalissimo who overcomes the barbarians" ) sounds too passive to be a translation of "征夷"). "Raids" might be more appropriate.
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I will be doing the GA Reassessment on this article as part of the GA Sweeps project. I have found this article to not meet the GA Criteria. Here are my concerns:
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article tells us: The Tokugawa clan ... nominally descended from Emperor Seiwa (850–880) and were a branch of the Minamoto clan (Seiwa Genji) by the Nitta clan.
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I completely agree, I mean the novel by James Clavell uses "Shōgun" and so does the article title for the Knowledge (XXG) article for the novel. Also, it says
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throughout the article (admittedly, there are some areas that don't use it.) This article needs to be moved. An administrator would have to do it because
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this is the crux. Whole sections have no refs, some POV statements are unsourced, and some refs are incomplete (or in the case of #4, have no content).
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Why is the "Bakufu" discussed in the Etymology section if its etymology is not mentioned? Where would be the best place to relocate this information?
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article tells us: Tokugawa Ieyasu ... received the title sei-i taishōgun in 1603 after he forged a family tree to show he was of Minamoto descent.
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The word 將 (jiang in Chinese and sho in Japanese) originally meant "Commander". Therefore, 將軍 or (jiangjun or shogun) meant Commander of an Army.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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where the claim was made, but if it only/primarily appears there, I don't know that it deserves to be in the introduction to the page.
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Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be
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Overall I can't keep the article as GA as it currently stands. I will hold it for one week and see if work can be done to improve it.
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to be Minamoto) needs to be substantiated. So far as I can tell, this claim didn't appear on the page until after the airing of the
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while I still think that in order to get FAC more statements will have to be sourced, I feel confident it can at least merit a GA.
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for that matter of the very deliberate efforts on Japan's part to not be called "King" in communications with other Asian nations.
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In the article there is a subsection "Conquest of the Ainu", and it is described that they were conquered by the earliest shogun.
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Unless one of these versions is purely an eccentric fringe theory, then both versions need to appear in both articles, due to
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will hope to find a few more I can move up again. I'm not sure which unsourced POV statements you're referring to, though? –
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There are dozens of kanji with the pronunciation "shō," including a wind instrument and the first character of "shogun."
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The Japanese following this phrase means "grapes are purple" (budoh wa murasaki-iro). Someone has a sense of humor.
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There is also a clarification needed tag that has been on the article since November 2008 with no apparent action.
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And to answer your question more directly, yes, the kanji 将 in 将軍 does have the meaning "commander" or "general."
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The Spanish article goes into a lot more detail than the English article. Any Spanish speakers up to translate?
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I hope that you or some other expert will add that info to the article. Otherwise the redirect is heading for
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The lead is to be a summary of the article yet there are sections of the article not mentioned in the lead.
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I have now updated the article in line with the edit that I reverted before the RM had concluded. The
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The intro to the article says that sho means commander or general, yet there is also a page called "
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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997:. Shogun Japan 🎓🎓 Is that so? We don't have to cover minor usage of an English word shogun. --
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as "King of Japan", or possibly as Taiko or Kwampaku in the case of Hideyoshi, but not as Shogun.
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expanding on that is the influence of Europeans in general is also not explored in this article.
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Agreed. Standard dictionaries and scholarly works spell it this way, without the macron.
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Knowledge (XXG):Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#English words of Japanese origin
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in the archives full of formalized usage of styles is driving me mad, I fear.)
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11.^ Titsingh, I. (1834). Annales des empereurs du Japon, p. 409
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B-Class military culture, traditions, and heraldry articles
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should instances of "Shōgun" within the article be changed?
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as an unexplained redirect. But I'll leave it for a while.
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A fact from this article was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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military leaders of past and present from, for example,
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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This article has been checked against the following
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2027:. No further edits should be made to this section.
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1727:. There should defintely be something in the
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1495:Should the name of this article be "Shōgun"?
8:
1719:. There's a subsection on Ieyasu's time as
680:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history
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1976:Shogun is almost identical and widely used.
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306:project page
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282:Japan portal
218:WikiProjects
201:
175:(comparison)
166:
147:
130:
102:
84:
83:
48:reassessment
46:
31:
30:
26:
2123:Noahfgodard
2054:Noahfgodard
2025:move review
1995:Noahfgodard
1961:Worldlywise
1926:Bueller 007
1849:move review
1817:WitherOrNot
1562:transcluded
1330:84.13.51.52
1273:talk to me
1242:David Fuchs
1233:David Fuchs
1216:Luna Santin
1202:David Fuchs
1184:6. Images?:
1174:seems good.
1034:84.13.51.52
1032:Conquering?
1005:Terminology
750:Structure:
540:(TV series)
474:Peer review
302:participate
43:renominated
2208:Categories
1798:Firman.Nst
1711:, such as
1396:Billy Nair
1354:Billy Nair
312:, and see
137:column on
2117:Etymology
2098:Hijiri 88
2021:talk page
1978:Artanisen
1703:The term
1659:Tlhslobus
1442:LordAmeth
1411:LordAmeth
1381:LordAmeth
1124:LordAmeth
587:translate
206:is rated
127:Main Page
2187:unsigned
2174:Minamoto
2062:contribs
2050:unsigned
2023:or in a
1891:Contribs
1752:Thanks,
1744:¡gobble!
1717:Hidetada
1643:But the
1497:Torsodog
1326:unsigned
1025:contribs
1013:unsigned
931:Politics
922:politics
878:Politics
711:criteria
642:Japanese
512:Pictures
505:Articles
109:Delisted
2078:Xezbeth
1991:Support
1974:Support
1957:Support
1940:Support
1655:WP:NPOV
1616:H1nkles
1598:H1nkles
1580:needed.
1048:Section
983:western
958:on the
634:Culture
522:: None
515:: None
508:: None
448:history
367:on the
331:Refresh
242:History
208:B-class
129:in the
68:Process
1914:Daimyo
1910:Shogun
1906:Shōgun
1762:WP:RfD
1733:ja:大御所
1729:shōgun
1721:Ōgosho
1709:shōgun
1705:Ōgosho
1673:Ogosho
1645:Shogun
1612:WP:GAR
1515:Shōgun
1511:Shōgun
1456:indeed
1111:john k
1058:Aterui
599:Assess
485:: None
477:: None
214:scale.
90:Listed
71:Result
27:Shogun
1944:Jfruh
1871:NNADI
1858:moved
1564:from
1088:1 BCE
993:, to
638:Asian
584:Help
519:Lists
458:purge
453:watch
340:Japan
322:Reiwa
296:Japan
237:Japan
195:This
2195:talk
2165:talk
2146:talk
2127:talk
2082:talk
2058:talk
2042:and
1999:talk
1982:talk
1965:talk
1948:talk
1930:talk
1885:Talk
1877:LUCK
1874:GOOD
1821:talk
1802:talk
1663:talk
1636:The
1620:talk
1602:talk
1544:talk
1523:talk
1501:talk
1481:talk
1465:talk
1446:talk
1415:talk
1400:talk
1385:talk
1358:talk
1334:talk
1308:talk
1290:talk
1222:talk
1128:talk
1092:1 CE
1084:AD 1
1080:1 BC
1038:talk
1021:talk
999:Taku
989:and
550:Add
443:edit
65:Date
2046:?
1769:Pam
1735:).
1723:at
1683:Pam
1540:Fg2
1304:Fg2
1286:Fg2
1261:sho
1096:Fg2
1086:or
950:Mid
359:Top
324:6)
318:JST
2210::
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2167:)
2148:)
2129:)
2109:)
2106:やや
2084:)
2064:)
2060:•
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2001:)
1984:)
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1932:)
1919:,
1908:→
1860:.
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1023:•
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535::
497:–
320:,
248:/
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327:(
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135:"
131:"
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