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ride on rails, it's not an aerial tramway. Or a gondola lift. With no disrespect to
Waddell, dead even longer than Steinman, he's giving a justification for why one uses a transporter bridge to effect a crossing at grade, rather than a definition of one. I have to wonder, why exactly does this matter? This oddball construction is certainly closer to a transporter bridge than to anything else, and there are many sources that cite it as "one of only two transporter bridges ever built in the US". ++
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407:. The Sky Ride violates the most basic concept of a transporter bridge, the desire to transport passengers, vehicles, and cargo at the grade of the surrounding terrain without building a bridge deck at grade, in order to leave the bridged waterway unobstructed. This is accomplished by a rigid elevated superstructure carrying a rolling truck which in turn supports a gondola which is, by cables or less often by a rigid structure,
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523:(though there's considerable sloppy use of both terms and the term "cable car") by the gondolas on an AT rolling along a fixed cable by being pulled by a second cable versus the gondolas on a GL riding on a single moving cable. I assert no claim that that distinction is correct, but only that it is the position already taken in Knowledge (XXG). The gondolas on the Sky Ride rolled along a fixed cable.
88:
1242:, was completed, over the ship canal from Lake Avenue, Duluth, to Minnesota Point" (emphasis added) thus implying that the Knoxville cableway was not a transporter bridge .) On page 11 the author also describes and includes a sketch for a proposed design for a "modified type of transporter bridge" which is clearly an aerial tramway (and one on which, I would hope, they would distribute
1365:, that ferried people across the lagoon in the center of the fair. It was demolished after carrying X,XXX,XXX riders during the run of the fair. The Sky Ride had an 1,850-foot (564 m) span and two XXX-feet tall towers, making it the most prominent structure at the fair. Suspended from the span, 215 feet (66 m) above the ground, were rocket-shaped cars, each carrying 36 passengers.
21:
1274:. A clue might be found in Tyrrell's comment that the car on the Knoxville cableway moved at a steep incline. It may be that the engineers and architects of the day only considered near-horizontal aerial tramways, such as that at Devil's Dyke, as transporter bridges, but considered those which scaled heights to be a structure type unto themselves. (As can be seen from the
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article proposed a new use for this type of construction doesn't convert it from a aerial tramway to a transporter bridge. You can load up a passenger car with household goods to move them from one home to another, but that doesn't make the car a moving van. The 1933 article never calls the Sky Ride
1269:
It is thus clear that contemporary sources clearly considered at least some aerial tramways to be transporter bridges. What's not clear at this remove is whether they considered all, or just some, aerial tramways to be transporter bridges. It's not that aerial tramways were new or novel at this time
537:
Accounts of the bridge differ. Some illustrations show girders of a truss, while others show only cable stays but the "rocket cars" by many/most accounts, ride on rails, not cables. Steinman, the designer of the bridge, of course would know what was built, but he's been dead a long time. If the cars
330:
The following material was stashed in the body of the article, commented out. As the original author of this article, I put it there thinking I'd like to try to make use of it later. Since that doesn't seem to be common practice, (someone just deleted it and I had to fish it out of the history) I'm
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interpretation :). Thanks for digging that ref up! ... the PM ref below though speaks of rails. So I don't know. Letting others weigh in seems prudent. Another possibility is to add it to the aerial tram category but leave it in the transporter bridge category, and discuss in the article how it has
869:
Also, I consider the
Engineering News-Record article and the book co-authored by the engineer who designed it, both published and scholarly, to be much more reliable sources than this page. So While we should change the article to describe both in the lead section, I don't think this is such a big
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Those pics are amazing, I had not found them at the time I was doing my original research. They should be referenced from the article. I wonder where they came from. I agree with you that they clearly show that the "truss" is really just an arrangement of cables (which is what most sources say)...
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and is clearly an aerial tramway. (It must be also noted, however, that
Tyrrell later, at page 9, after describing the Portugalete, Bizerta, Rouen, Nantes, and Marselle classic-style transporter bridges, says, "up to this time, transporter bridges had not been used in America ... but in 1905,
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I thought I tried to say that I'm Ok with the text added by me, the thing DOES have aspects of aerial trams, but I like your wording even better. No one needs to feel badly about this episode, the article is better now than it was before due to us all digging around and adding bits we found.
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There are sources that describe it as both, so the article should describe it as both. However, I would have to think that if the
Popular Science article had come true and larger versions were built that carried vehicles, our German source would not be calling this a cable car. -
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Text about the number of transporter bridges in the US can then be moved to the history section. I think this is more engaging than the current lead. It also explains why the article is in both the amusement ride category as well as the transporter bridge category. Thoughts? -
459:, which I consider pretty reliable (although I'm not sure how reliable others consider it) . In thinking about this more, it seems your argument is based on conveyance grade level as the defining feature of transporter bridge. I'm not sure I agree with that one feature being
411:. In the Sky Ride, the gondolas are (a) at the level of the superstructure, not at grade, (b) are attached directly to, not suspended from, the rolling trucks, and (c) passengers ascend to the superstructure level by elevators. One of the sources cited by the article,
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I have a family heirloom, a U.S.Patent granted to
William Lindsay Hamilton, his heirs relating to "Ropeways and the like". I understand that William Hamilton designed the Transporter Bridge. The Patent number is 1501333 and was granted in Washington on 15th July, 1924
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I have to dig up the research I did way back when but I think there are sources that characterize it as a transporter bridge. I can't argue with your criteria based analysis, if you posit the assumptions, it's correct, but I do wonder where you got the criteria from?
559:, especially in the second and third images. As to the reason that it matters, it's simply a matter of someone's mistake being perpetuated. In the grand scheme of things, however, I'm not sure that this or anything about transporter bridges matters other than as a
488:, "The only excuse for the existence of this type of structure is that its construction is permissible at certain locations where no low-level bridge would be allowed, and where a high-level structure would be unsatisfactory for the crossing traffic."
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Let me try to dig those up. IF they even exist. It's been a long time since I worked on this and it's possible that I just synthesized it (it's allowable to do counting synthesis IF your facts are in order :) ) rather than found it somewhere.
867:." Near the bottom, the text near the bottom does not translate clearly. Sentences are incomplete where it asserts (but does not clearly state) that it is not a transporter bridge. Do you know of a better translation site than google?
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Lar, if you have some additional "sources that cite it as 'one of only two transporter bridges ever built in the US'" we could cite them here as well. (That's not a challenge, BTW, just a suggestion.) I'm going to go ahead
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If the cables were enlarged, the elevators replaced by larger lifts, ... and the rocket cars were designed to accomodate vehicles, the entire system would become an aerial ferry ... capable of carrying loaded trucks and
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which notes that the gondola is hung at the level of the river banks. The credibility of
Structurae is in doubt when it identifies the "Structural Type" as a "Cable-stayed bridge deck truss" when there's no deck truss
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in his section on transporter bridges has a list of "other bridges of this type" and includes in that list, a reference to a "Cableway at
Brighton, England," obviously being the Devil's Dyke cableway described
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1222:, England, the car on the former one moving on a cable with steep incline." He goes on to say that the English one is the one at Devil's Dyke designed by W.J. Brewer. Photos of that cableway can be seen
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in the article where it looks thicker is no doubt a retouch job. They also seem to show the cars travel on cables (although exactly how isn't quite clear) rather than suspended rails, at least that's my
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reverting Lar's inclusion of the language I previously requested because it is misleading. I apologize to Lar and ¢Spender1983 for the trouble I've put them to (and also for this talk page edit being
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On account of the steepness of the banks, the great rise and fall of the tides, the length of the span, and the height of headway needed, any ordinary kind of bridge was impracticable, and therefore
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Successful construction and operation of the
Skyride transporter bridge at the Century of Progress was a tribute to model testing work, which formed a conspicuous part of the design procedure.
415:, clearly says, albeit in German, that the Sky Ride is not a transporter bridge, but is instead a "cable car." Some close-up photos of the Sky Ride gondolas and cable system are available at
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about transporter bridges, says without further comment, "During the year 1894, two important passenger cableways were erected, one near
Knoxville, Tennessee, and the other at Brighton Dyke
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1084:- Here is a reference for transporter bridge. It's only a snippet view in Google books, but it's enough to show that a reliable secondary source called it a transporter bridge.
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Not a bad approach... the article could use modernization, conversion to inline cites and the like and this could be done at the same time, if someone were so inclined. ++
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a transporter bridge. I have now found two or three authoritative references, written during the heyday of transporter bridges, which clearly indicate that some, or all,
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I propose that the reference to "transporter bridge" in the first paragraph of the article be changed to "aerial tramway" and that the second paragraph be deleted.
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Whatever the explanation, it is indisputably clear that the architects and engineers of the time considered some aerial tramways to be transporter bridges. I and
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636:(May 1933). This article and the associated illustration clearly discuss that the Sky Ride is intended as a model for future bridges. Quoting page 669: "
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description, the fact that the
Knoxville cableway not only scaled a height but also served to cross a river probably added to its ambiguity.)
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It has been an interesting discussion, at the very least, and therefore enjoyable to me. I have been thinking that the lead should change to:
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defining feature, and Sky Ride seems to hit the rest well enough. I'm also not clear I'd call it an aerial tram. Perhaps the thing to do is
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Add a new paragraph immediately following the second paragraph and just above the Contents box which would read (without italics):
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I have found the smoking gun and it has shot me. I am reverting the edit made by Lar to insert the language which I requested.
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has a sketch of an aerial tramway and says that it "represents in a crude form the principle of the transporter bridge."
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This made sense to me so I've incorporated it into the article where you suggested. I converted the cites slightly. ++
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Comment - Perhaps the article can be corrected to be more along the lines of the Popular Science azrticle. "
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The Sky ride functioned as an amusement ride for the world's fair, but was presented as a model for future
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As it turns out, I was right that the Sky Ride was a aerial tramway, but I was wrong, too, in that it is
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Done. Moved the extra text from the lead (along with some other text) to a new section called Design. -
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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carried 4.5 million fairgoers in "rocket cars" 60 m above ground, before being demolished in 1934?
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are, therefore, clearly wrong about the Sky Ride not being a transporter bridge and I am
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http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.861954,-87.605066&spn=0.024078,0.040851&hl=en
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Re the external link, there's also a very good collection of detailed images at
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controversy that it needs to be in the lead; place it lower in the article. -
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While the Sky Ride has been identified as a transporter bridge in a number of
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Thanks, guys, for the article cleanup and inclusions. I think this is done.
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This should remain listed as a transporter bridge. Please see page 666 in
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Economics of bridgework: a sequel to Bridge engineering (at Google Books)
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So did you make that change or no? I think that's a great new lead. ++
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When google translates the page for me, it says (near the top left) "
739:" (Emphasis added.) Perhaps the best compromise and compliance with
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column on 3 January 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
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adding a link to the pictures when Lar had already added one.
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and additional discussion at that source and at Waddell's
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knew the difference: the 1922 article, in describing the
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niederelbe.de (more properly, Die Welt der Schwebefähren)
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1137:- Here is where Steinman calls it a transporter bridge.
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were considered to be transporter bridges. They are:
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bringing it here so it does not get lost/forgotten:
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the first and only one on this side of the Atlantic
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735:this special kind, called a 'transporter bridge,'
384:RfC: Removal of transporter bridge classification
563:historical curiosity of interest only to bridge
1261:The Theory and Practice of Bridge Construction
896:and add an external link to the picture page.
567:and lovers of Big Steel Things such as steel
555:That it's not a truss can be clearly seen at
64:Knowledge (XXG):Recent additions/2006/January
8:
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1058:I think it's allowable to link to them. ++
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498:The Builder, Vol. 68, June 18, 1904
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714:Vol. 37 No. 1 Pg. 60 Jan. 1922
634:Popular Mechanics Vol 59 No. 5
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