Talk:St. Clair's defeat - Knowledge (XXG)

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conflicts are ideally named for their location or date, but that simply doesn't work here becaues we have 40 years of battles along the entire length of the Wabash. Battles are frequently named for the victors or the vanquished, but as stated earlier, we can't name this "Little Turtle's Victory" because he had many victories. Consider the effect on the combatants. The Northwest Indian coalition's brilliant victory defended it's land, but their coalition fell apart and their war was lost at a relatively minor battle at Fallen Timbers. By contrast, the US was completely rocked, as you can see in the "Aftermath" subsection of this article, and the US had to create an entirely new Army from scratch. The effect of this battle was much greater on the loser. That, and general historical consensus, justifies the name "St. Clair's Defeat."

610:"General Arthur St. Clair sent to attack the Amer Indians, forcing them to a peace. George Washington told St. Clair to "Beware of Surprise". St. Clair attacked the villages of Miami, Shawnee and Delaware Indians near modern Fort Wayne Indiana. His troops consisted of 2 regiments of regular army troops and militia from Kentucky and some of the original 13 states. Arthur St. Clair was governor of the Ohio territory. Much of the militia deserted, the soldiers were sick, there were no pack horses and the tents leaked. By the 4th of November 1791, the army was down to 1400 men. They camped along the Wabash River. Before sunrise, "Little Turtle", the great Miami Indian war chief, led 1200 warriors into battle. They took St. Clair's army completely by surprise. Before noon, half of the army was dead on the field. 1094:

popular name, doesn't take the perspective of either party involved, and has a significant history. And it's not a wholly inaccurate name since it is accurate as to the location of the battle. I agree that Google search quantification is hardly an end-all-debate tool, but I do think it can be one useful measure. You're correct to point out that not all spiders will cite Knowledge (XXG) in their summaries. So in order to weed them out, I've also removed articles containing the line "The Indian tribes in the Old Northwest, however, were not parties to this treaty". This line is contained within the first two paragraphs of every Knowledge (XXG) version of the article since

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it's better that way. I agree with you generally that the historical record favors "St. Clair's defeat". I just don't know that that automatically requires that we use the name. After all, the historical record also used to favor "Custer's Last Stand" for the Battle of the Little Bighorn. And although both terms are widely used (and the former actually receives considerably more hits on Google), we use the latter title for the battle on Knowledge (XXG). In part because it's the more neutral title, and in part because the U.S. government somewhat officialized that name when it renamed the battlefield in 1991. But in general I think this comes down to Knowledge (XXG)'s

1195:. Unfortunately, the policy as given seems a bit unclear for this example. First of all, because it says that an article can be given a name that expresses a point of view if "the commonality of the name overrides our desire to avoid passing judgment". Unfortunately it doesn't give any sort of guideline as to what that threshold is. The guidelines also say that it's better to use a POV title than one not reflected in sources. But in this case there are many good sources for either name. So I don't think we necessarily have to use a title that expresses a point of view in this case. 817:. This was previously resolved, and no new scholarship has been presented. Owen, I understand your concern about NPOV, but it isn't the place of Knowledge (XXG) to make up new names for events. Even if that were our goal, history records at least 3 major battles on the Wabash, and a couple of others that are sometimes confused as being on that river. I actually like your suggestion of "Little Turtle's Victory," but that name is impractical because Little Turtle had many victories. Incidentally, Little Turtle's major victories are all named for the defeated commanders. 1079:

historical consensus, nor is it in any way accurate. Even if it were, when I tried the same Google search, I brought up many pages that had absolutely nothing to do with Little Turtle, Blue Jacket, or General St. Clair. In addition, the Knowledge (XXG) clone pages (there are many) cannot be edited out with a boolean operative because they're NOT Knowledge (XXG) pages, they simply steal content. If you want a more objective method for changing the name of this article, you'll need to find a way that more editors find acceptable.

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first can only be confused with the Battle of Tippecanoe, but I showed above that even when you remove all entries relating to Tippecanoe, and all articles relating to Knowledge (XXG), you receive twice as many search results as you get for "St. Clair's defeat" with no search results removed. (And the margin is even greater when you remove Knowledge (XXG) search results from this search as well.) And even then there are references in "St. Clair's defeat" to the popular 19th century ballad which cannot be satisfactorily removed.

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Google hits has never been a valid method to determine historic terms or names. "Little Turtles" brings up more hits than "Little Turtle," but that doesn't mean we should change his name. And You're also ignoring the issues we've already had with your Google searches, namely that it's bringing up web pages that have absolutely nothing to do with St. Clair's Defeat, not to mention those ridiculous Knowledge (XXG) clone sites. (Eliminating the term "Knowledge (XXG)" in a boolean search won't eliminate them. They're not

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Wabash," I received 1,320,000 results, but a quick scan over the pages show a BIG problem with this method. 1) Many of the pages are copies of an older Knowledge (XXG) article of the same name. 2) Many of the original articles score Google hits, but then actually refer to the battle as "St. Clair's Defeat." 3) Many of the hits have nothing at all to do with this particular battle. Let's talk about this before we have an edit war, but if the change is based on nothing more than Google hits, I'm going to revert.

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Apollo's Fire reference is already there. With this addition, there seemed to be enough material to justify creating a Popular Culture section, which also creates consistency with other Knowledge (XXG) articles having cultural references to a historical event. Also, folk ballads aren't really "aftermath" of an event, as the section header suggests (although they may be seen as such from an extremely technical perspective!), so a Popular Culture section is more accurate.

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authority on the subject. Interestingly enough, the Army has a streamer for the "Miami Campaign," which covers all the battles from Harmar to Wayne. The Center for Military History has articles on St. Clair's Defeat, but not for the Battle of the Wabash. (I then searched for just "Wabash" and got articles on Tippecanoe and Harmar.) I then checked the Ohio Historical Society. They have some records for St. Clair and St. Clair's Defeat, but the records listed for

143: 481: 1098:, so it should fairly eliminate any sources that have spidered the article any time since then. And since the article had only existed for a week at that point, it should almost entirely eliminate any Knowledge (XXG) bias. With this line removed, a huge number of search results disappear from both articles' searches, particularly combined with the search removals listed above. Battle of the Wabash now receives only 1075:(1812)). In fact, the Battle of Vincennes probably has the best claim to the title, since the river played a major role in the conflict. By contrast, the Wabash played virtually no role in St. Clair's Defeat. The combatants were not fighting for control of the river, nor was it utilized to gain an advantage. It was, in fact, little more than a landmark that helped identify the location of the battle. 350: 32: 236: 1667:

would be used to seeing. These are scans of old maps. My question is whether it would be acceptable to edit the images to reduce confusion on directions? We could either add a more obvious direction indicator in them, or perhaps even rotate them so North is up. I've never altered a map on Knowledge (XXG) like that, so I'm not sure if that's better or worse. What are your opinions?

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that some ships lost at sea might have lost nearly everyone if they were far enough away from support. I don't have any clear examples to back myself up on this but I do believe it is possible there were naval battles in WW2 where US forces had higher casualty rates. If someone can find such an example, perhaps they should change the articles contention to "suffered in a land battle".--

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nothing that helps us. FortRecovery.org refers to "St. Clair's defeat" on their homepage, but interestingly enough, they have an article about the "Battle on the Banks of the Wabash" that refers to the Battle of Fort Recovery, 1794. I also checked my local library this weekend. They have 1 book titled "St. Clair's Defeat," which is really an extraction from Theodore Roosevelt's

248: 75: 422: 411: 400: 389: 836: 1106:. I'm not going to say that you can conclude one or the other is popular from a search like that, but it does suggest that both are considerably well-used, in approximately the same frequency. Which says to me that we aren't under any compulsion to use "St. Clair's defeat", since there is a name that is equally viable and, I believe, more even-handed. 308: 280: 975:. Also, it is not clear how many of those results refer to the ballad rather than to the battle. In general I won't disagree that "St. Clair's defeat" is the older and more prevalent historical name. But it isn't the only historical name, it doesn't seem to be the most common contemporary name, and it's clearly not the most neutral name. 378: 1103: 1099: 954: 1200: 1336:. That's far more casualties than St Clair's Defeat. The specific point about casualties at St Clair's Defeat is that the army lost more men in a battle against a Native American force that any other battle in U.S. history. Once you take the American Indian qualifier out of that statement, it ceases to be true. 1428:) but it's in Japanese and not all that useful to a reader looking to learn more about or to purchase the album. Allmusic is as comprehensive and authoritative a music database as any, and I didn't think it proper to link directly to something like an Amazon.com page. Feel free to remove the link if you disagree. 951: 957: 866: 859: 1093:

Whether the Battle of Tippecanoe took place on the Wabash or not, it's so far as I know the only other battle that has been called by that name, which is why I was focusing on it. As for the name itself, I'm not suggesting it because it's the best description for the battle, but rather because it's a

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I disagree, but I won't revert just yet. I think you need to go by more than a simple Google search. Look it up at some libraries. I have read many books about "St. Clair's Defeat," one about "Sinclair's Defeat," but never "the Battle of the Wabash." Upon trying a Google search for "Battle of the

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Take your crap somewhere else. People worked to develop this article over the last 15 years. Yes, it has opportunities for improvement, but it's a significant improvement over the 2005 version, or the nothing that was here before that. I take umbrage with your condescending attitude, the flippant

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Also, it's a deceptive sleight of hand to say that "Little Turtle" vs "Little Turtles" is a fair comparison to "Battle of the Wabash" vs "St. Clair's defeat", since "little turtles" can obviously refer to little turtles, whereas "Battle of the Wabash" and "St. Clair's defeat" are far more clear. The

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for two main reasons. First, because the name receives nearly three times as many Google hits as St. Clair's defeat (even despite its recurrence in Knowledge (XXG) page names and in Knowledge (XXG) forks). I receive a count of 169,000 for "St. Clair's defeat", and 477,000 for "Battle of the Wabash".

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I understand why Buckongahelas is an important name in this article, but why is he suddenly given full credit for the battle and the victory? I understand the debate regarding who was "in charge," but I've never read in a book or article that Buckongahelas and his Lenape were primarily responsible

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In WW2 there were numerous sea battles involving individual ships or small groups of ships (if I'm not mistaken) where for example Japanese naval or air forces destroyed the entire American contingent. Perhaps these were smaller engagements and only part of a larger campaign or battle but I suspect

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We've been talking in circles, so I'm biting the bullet and reverting. Owen, you point out some valid issues, but there are only three of us who seem to care about this article, and you have the minority opinion this time. However, you've caused me to do some research, and I do agree that we have

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I don't particularly like this option, but what do you think about renaming the article "St. Clair Campaign," like we did with Harmar Campaign? The actual battle could be a subsection, and could list various names by which the battle has been called. The rest of the article would give the context

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Where did we get "Battle of the Wabash"? Is there a reference for it? Every reference I have to this battle calls it "St. Clair's Defeat." There's even an old folk song by the same name. I don't doubt that it has been called "Battle of the Wabash," I just have no sources that use that name, and

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I don't mind if the maps face north or not, but it is unfortunate these two side-by-side maps are not oriented in the same direction, which can be confusing. Someday we'll have better maps, drawn in color by a volunteer using Inkscape or something. In the meantime, perhaps the easiest remedy is to

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I'd considered that as well, but I think I don't know that I would like that any better. To say that battle itself was just one aspect of the campaign again takes the American point of view in the conflict. Also the focus in this article is on the battle and not on the campaign itself, and I think

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Honestly, I don't think you have a case with NPOV. As stated before, all of Little Turtle's historically significant battles are named for those whom he vanquished. You're actually trying to establish an exception, if you look at it that way. As far as Google searching, I'm just not buying it.

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I realized the maps in this article are not facing North. The first one does not indicate direction, but if North is up (like most modern maps), then it is backwards. The second map has an N on the right side of the map, so it is correct, but still turned 90° to the right from what most readers

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I don't really see a NPOV issue in the article title, so long as the article content is NPOV. This battle will always be a bit of a struggle because the US simply has more documented history, and we have to make many educated guesses about the Native American coalition. From a NPOV perspective,

1021:(in which Little Turtle himself was defeated.) So there is no exception. This would be the exception. Besides, that argument doesn't address NPOV so much as naming consistency. (And it's somewhat dubious that Knowledge (XXG) should have a unique standard simply for battles waged by Little Turtle.) 614:

It was one of the greatest Indian victories. President George Washington heard what had happened and purportedly shouted to his secretary "St Clair suffered that army to be cut to pieces, butchered, tomahawked by surprise. How can he answer to his country. The curse of widows and children is upon

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were, again, mostly about other topics. Ditto for the Indiana Historical Society, and to be fair, many articles were simply referring to "St. Clair's defeat," but did not give the battle a name. I tried the Fort Wayne Historical Society (since that was St. Clair's destination) and found really

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The casualty rate, according to the article was 97% and the death rate was 69% so thats not too hard to believe ... especially for a land battle. The USA has been very successful on land and has more often then not being on the offensive meaning that it would be unlikely an entire unit would be

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As a bit of an aside, I have come across one source that specifically criticizes the naming of the battle: "Americans named the battle 'St. Clair's defeat,' thereby depriving Indians of the mantle of victory and placing responsibility for the debacle squarely on the shoulders of the incompetent

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I first heard of this battle in a song of the same name by the Modern Folk Quartet, on their 1964 album "Changes" which I own (I'm a big folk revival fan). It seems appropriate to add this cover of Bob Gibson's tune to the list of references (the only other of which I'm aware), given that the

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Concerning the Google search, I guess I haven't explained my objection. First and foremost, I reject the use of Google hits as a method to name historical events. I understand why you used it; it's quick, simple, and relatively objective. My objection is that it does not reflect academic or

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series. They have nothing on the Battle of the Wabash, but that search did bring up some songbooks and a book on the Battle of Fort Harrison (which I now have reserved). In summary, I found these three things. 1) There are very few people that care about this battle. We're in a very small

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Owen, you found a pretty clever way to weed out the Knowledge (XXG) clones, and it confirms my suspicion that there aren't nearly so many websites out there with information on this particular engagement. I've been taking a slower approach and simply looking at websites that might have some

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warriors under Blue Jacket, Little Turtle, and Buckongahelas intercepted the United States Army under Arthur St. Clair, as it came to attack their towns. Although inferior in strength, the Indians overran the American camp on the Wabash and inflicted almost a thousand casualties, putting the

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and does not name Buckongahelas as the leader of the Western Confederacy. Pending the citation (or if they are already present, a call-out) of sources which cite Buckongahelas as the leader of the confederacy's forces, there is no reason to dilute the contributions of other leaders.

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If you think that's a better presentation, feel free. Consider the name of the battle, though. It isn't "Little Turtle's Victory," it's "St. Clair's Defeat." I don't think it's really on us to rename the battle, but I think that may have something to do with the photo at the top.

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I don't think "worst defeat in proportional losses" is true even among Native American battles. The Battle of the Hundred Slain (Fetterman Massacre) had no U.S. survivors. Then there's the other two no-survivors battles at the Little Bighorn and the Alamo, which also surely count?

1622:. Currently, the only mention I see is the sentence "Both Little Turtle and Blue Jacket claimed to have been in overall command..." Is it worth expanding on this? I could do some research, but I don't want to build an entire paragraph on this topic if we purposely removed it. 1139:

minority. 2) The battle has no official name. It is more often referred to "St. Clair's defeat" (meaning the defeat of St. Clair) as a generic term than a proper name. 3) The name "Battle of the Wabash" can refer to almost anything else, and usually does.

804:. I know a google search returns results, but I bet most of those are that are legitimate are referring the far more widely known Battle of Tippecanoe, not this battle. I also not the first few pages of results are almost entirely wikipedia mirrors. — 472: 290: 588: 488: 294: 1041: 835:, and it was later used by the Ohio Historical Society in 1940: "The flying wedge, it should not be forgotten, was used by the Shawnee to cut the force of General Arthur St. Clair in twain at the Battle of the Wabash..." 1875: 578: 767:

Second, the name better reflects Knowledge (XXG)'s NPOV policy. "St. Clair's defeat" clearly suggests an American perspective on the event (the article might just as fairly be titled "Little Turtle's Victory").

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I don't think you can say thats is most common name on the internet. Battle of the Wabash can refer to more than one battle. You are assuming all the hits are referring to this one battle - but they are not.

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Just to ensure all Tippecanoe results are removed, I've done another search with all results relating to Knowledge (XXG), Tippecanoe, Prophetstown, and Tenskwatawa removed. And I still receive 331,000 hits,

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Your first point is not true. In fact this was the only battle involving Little Turtle that was still using the format " defeat". "Hardin's defeat" and "Harmar's defeat" are both incorporated in the article

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New names? As I said, it is the more common name given by Google search results. The earliest source I can find using the name for the battle dates back to a volume of National Republic published in 1934

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If memory serves, we used to have a small section regarding the debate over the confederacy's command. It mentioned how Little Turtle is often credited, but that this may be due to the influence of

1530:). You want to fix the article? Try acting like a decent human being and treating people with the respect they deserve. Or better yet, chip in and make some valuable edits to improve the article. 1870: 1855: 1730: 537: 514: 619:

As a reference Tribal Document Collection Consolidated Dockets no: 15-H 29F 3-17 Doctors Ermine Wheeler-Doeglin, Emily J Blasingham and Dorothy R Libby. 1997 Glenblack laboratory Indianapolis."

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Correction, Owen. The Battle of Tippecanoe did not actually occur on the Wabash, that's just a common error and something easily corrected on Knowledge (XXG) with a disambiguation. The

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for the victory, any more than Little Turtle and his Miami or Blue Jacket and his Shawnee. I guess what I'm asking for is a source / citation for his sudden promotion in this article.

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I just tried this again while shopping on Amazon. "St. Clair's Defeat" brought up books. "Battle of the Wabash" brought up a few unrelated books, and a lot of unrelated postcards.

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Let me ask again. Would anyone here be opposed to moving the article to "St. Clair's Defeat"? I don't want to do this without some input from others, but it seems to me that

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I concur, I have never seen this referred to as the "Battle of the Wabash" in literature. The only battle I know to have been refered to as the "Battle of the Wabash" was the

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sites, they literally steal content from Knowledge (XXG), which is why you're finding so many hits on the old "Battle Of The Wabash" wiki that we eliminated years ago.)

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commanding general. What might better be called the Battle of the Wabash was one of the most complete military humiliations ever suffered by American armed forces."

1805: 1800: 1795: 1790: 1815: 953:- on GoogleBooks, Battle of the Wabash refers to the Battle of Tippecanoe more than it does to St. Claire's Defeat. Or look at it this way: "Battle of the wabash" 216: 1745:

The "poorly" is modifying both "trained" and "disciplined", but if you found it confusing, then there are undoubtedly others. I'll change it to "undisciplined".

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remarks (bordering vandalism) you threw into the article, and your baseless accusations of racism, which flies against Knowledge (XXG)'s fundamental principles (

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some real NPOV issues on the Northwest Indian War articles. I'm going to get to work on those articles, and I hope we can work together to make them better.

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and made the former article a redirect. If you disagree, we can move it back, but let's discuss it first so we're not just moving articles back and forth.

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This is the first mention of Colonel Drake in the article: "Colonel Drake ordered his battalion to fix bayonets and charge the main Native position."

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article. That was never really resolved to everyone's satisfaction, either, but they ultimately just had to pick a name. I suggest we do the same.

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The remainder ran for their lives, leaving the dead and the wounded and 8 cannons, 1200 muskets, horses and wagons. "Little Turtle" lost 21 braves.

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Trying to give this article's tone the benefit of the doubt (because it seems like pretty obvious POV pushing IMO) and then I read "Hardin"

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It may well be that the information given is accurate but these sorts of casualty figures and allegations of misconduct should be sourced.

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In the reference, I linked to an Allmusic album page. The Modern Folk quartet does have a web page of sorts where the album does appear (

43: 1835: 1734: 1306:"indeed, in proportional terms of losses to strength it was the worst defeat that United States forces have ever suffered in battle." 550: 168: 164:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

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Can't prove it buy I would bet my last dollar this garbage was typed up by someone with political and/or racist motivations.

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I listened to the opening of the Librivox book that was added to the bottom of the article. Sounds like it's this book?

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For that matter, Battle of the Wabash still gets 347,000 hits when both "Knowledge (XXG)" and "Tippecanoe" are removed.

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Uh oh, it looks like you did a forbidden cut-and-paste move, which screws up the edit history, instead of an actual

1575: 1771: 737: 1514: 1018: 959:- over 9000. Google books is a much better survey of scholarly literature than a straight google search, IMO. — 92: 1619: 1406: 1322: 1071:(1812), on the other hand, could all appropriately be called the Battle of the Wabash. (So, too, could the 319:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a 1726: 1506: 1387: 1341: 1221: 1072: 822: 719: 693: 674: 464: 1284: 748: 553:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

1599: 838:. The name is historic, NPOV, and also the most commonly used reference to the battle on the internet. 60: 56: 52: 48: 1333: 1276: 1239: 1014: 801: 707: 148: 1579: 74: 1688: 1637: 1279:, and all of them were referring to St. Clair's Defeat, except for a handful referring to the dab. 1068: 960: 888: 805: 711: 654: 1354: 638: 621: 529: 508: 1609: 1588: 1402: 1318: 132: 105: 1750: 1433: 1383: 1358: 1337: 1217: 1060: 818: 715: 689: 670: 650: 1702: 1672: 1645: 1627: 1556: 1535: 1467: 1452: 1280: 1262: 1247: 1181: 1176:

could be a disambiguation page listing various battles that have been called by that name.

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survivors into a panic-stricken flight. —John Sugden, Tecumseh: A Life, Owl Books, 1997.

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The line "The new recruits were poorly trained and disciplined"- was that meant to be "

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mention the orientation in the caption, which is what Winkler does in his Wabash book.

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is the more common name by far. I could be wrong, though, which is why I'm asking.

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This NPOV discussion is reminiscent of the small controversy over what to name the

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against 159,000 for St. Clair's defeat with only Knowledge (XXG) pages removed.

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Since there have been no objections in 7 months, I moved all the content from

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I'm unclear why that's the version we've settled on for the article's title.

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Battle of the Wabash only loses 100,000 hits when Tippecanoe is removed.

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Uhm...who is that? Name never shows up before or after in the article.

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the changes and put the article back to the last stable revision, per

1776:. United States: Public Library of Fort Wayne and Allen County. 1954. 899:, with a total of nearly 400,000. St. Clair's defeat gets 169,000. 307: 279: 1017:" rather than "McGready's defeat". And of course there was the 563:

Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America

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Is the location accurate? Shouldn't it be in Ft. Recovery? --

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The infobox doesn't match "The Campaign" section of the text.

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The Union and Confederate armies each lost 23,000 men in the

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High-importance Indigenous peoples of North America articles

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Shouldn't the top picture in the infobox go to the winner?

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A fact from this article was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s

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Large sections of this article are not properly sourced.

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I think he needs a bit more of an introduction than that!

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A century and a half of Pittsburg and her people, Volume 1

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WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America articles

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Template:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America

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The new recruits were poorly trained and disciplined,

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Knowledge (XXG):Cut and paste move repair holding pen

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C-Class Indigenous peoples of North America articles

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How does the cited source present this information?

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This article has been checked against the following

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North American military history task force articles

446: 360: 1866:United States military history task force articles 854:Actually, I have found some even earlier sources. 1443:Position of Little turtle and St. Clair portraits 1851:C-Class North American military history articles 1821:C-Class United States articles of Low-importance 1861:C-Class United States military history articles 538:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America 956:- less than 300 mentions. "St.Clair's Defeat" 8: 569:Indigenous peoples of North America articles 333:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history 1426:http://www.themfq.com/discography/list3.htm 1310:over-run without recieving reinforcements. 1724: 1504: 503: 473:North American military history task force 443: 357: 274: 100: 740:. If so, this will need to be fixed; see 489:United States military history task force 201:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject United States 1497:Pretty sure they meant to say "Harmar". 313:This article is within the scope of the 1303:The article makes the following point: 505: 276: 102: 72: 1806:Selected anniversaries (November 2019) 1801:Selected anniversaries (November 2010) 1796:Selected anniversaries (November 2009) 1791:Selected anniversaries (November 2008) 1731:2601:1C2:4E00:2100:5D1B:57B2:2ACD:5F56 902:(or 155,000, if you remove Tippecanoe 323:. To use this banner, please see the 1816:Low-importance United States articles 336:Template:WikiProject Military history 7: 1638:St._Clair's_defeat#Command_structure 1453:killing the human spirit since 2003! 1193:NPOV policy regarding article titles 868:There are many others, old and new. 535:This article is within the scope of 154:This article is within the scope of 560:Indigenous peoples of North America 551:indigenous peoples of North America 515:Indigenous peoples of North America 91:It is of interest to the following 1841:WikiProject United States articles 1168:around the battle. The wiki link 1102:, and St. Clair's defeat receives 204:Template:WikiProject United States 25: 1846:C-Class military history articles 1831:Unknown-importance Ohio articles 1636:I tried a small paragraph under 969:That is not quite true. Compare 762:I've moved this article back to 528: 507: 420: 409: 398: 387: 376: 306: 278: 246: 141: 131: 104: 73: 30: 1503:Stay classy, Knowledge (XXG). 583:This article has been rated as 221:This article has been rated as 1811:C-Class United States articles 1363:01:30, 11 September 2011 (UTC) 1: 1755:16:30, 26 December 2021 (UTC) 1739:08:28, 26 December 2021 (UTC) 1438:18:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC) 1411:22:01, 17 November 2011 (UTC) 1327:12:15, 16 November 2008 (UTC) 641:15:51, 15 April - 2007 (UTC) 624:15:51, 15 April - 2007 (UTC) 557:and see a list of open tasks. 259:This article is supported by 1707:00:39, 6 November 2021 (UTC) 1693:21:40, 5 November 2021 (UTC) 1677:16:00, 4 November 2021 (UTC) 1540:21:34, 29 January 2021 (UTC) 1519:21:10, 29 January 2021 (UTC) 1456:14:58, 4 November 2019 (UTC) 1392:04:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC) 1346:18:24, 21 January 2009 (UTC) 1271:For what it's worth, I just 698:04:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC) 679:03:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC) 547:Indigenous peoples in Canada 316:Military history WikiProject 18:Talk:St. Clair's Defeat 1897: 1650:18:02, 17 March 2021 (UTC) 1632:13:40, 17 March 2021 (UTC) 1614:17:36, 15 March 2021 (UTC) 1593:17:22, 15 March 2021 (UTC) 1561:16:29, 15 March 2021 (UTC) 659:21:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC) 589:project's importance scale 381:Referencing and citation: 227:project's importance scale 1836:WikiProject Ohio articles 1604:if they wish to comment. 1472:13:19, 9 April 2020 (UTC) 1172:would be a redirect, and 752:15:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 582: 523: 487: 471: 442: 339:military history articles 301: 242: 220: 157:WikiProject United States 126: 99: 1299:Challenging a contention 1289:21:14, 6 June 2011 (UTC) 1267:01:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC) 1252:01:36, 10 May 2011 (UTC) 1019:Battle of Fallen Timbers 724:18:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC) 162:United States of America 1773:St. Clair's Defeat 1791 1416:Popular Culture section 1226:17:26, 9 May 2011 (UTC) 1211:16:33, 9 May 2011 (UTC) 1186:13:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC) 1163:15:16, 9 May 2011 (UTC) 1149:12:26, 9 May 2011 (UTC) 1136:The Winning of the West 1116:04:03, 9 May 2011 (UTC) 1089:18:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC) 1055:18:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC) 1035:18:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC) 1004:03:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC) 985:17:37, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 964:17:07, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 933:17:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 915:17:16, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 892:17:04, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 878:17:08, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 848:17:01, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 827:16:32, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 809:14:12, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 796:13:15, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 777:21:12, 5 May 2011 (UTC) 447:Associated task forces: 392:Coverage and accuracy: 1073:Siege of Fort Harrison 863:What to see in America 484: 468: 425:Supporting materials: 353: 239: 207:United States articles 81:This article is rated 1826:C-Class Ohio articles 865:, published in 1919. 483: 467: 352: 238: 85:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 1334:Battle of Gettysburg 1277:Battle of the Wabash 1240:Northwest Indian War 1174:Battle of the Wabash 1131:battle of the wabash 1015:Battle of Fort Wayne 802:Battle of Tippecanoe 764:Battle of the Wabash 708:Battle of the Wabash 149:United States portal 1697:Good idea, thanks! 1069:Seige of Fort Wayne 414:Grammar and style: 367:for B-class status: 175:Articles Requested! 1170:St. Clair's Defeat 815:St. Clair's Defeat 712:St. Clair's Defeat 686:St. Clair's Defeat 485: 469: 354: 321:list of open tasks 240: 87:content assessment 1741: 1729:comment added by 1521: 1509:comment added by 1061:Illinois Campaign 861:. It was used in 858:used it in 1908. 606:Indian Casualties 603: 602: 599: 598: 595: 594: 502: 501: 498: 497: 494: 493: 438: 437: 383:criterion not met 325:full instructions 273: 272: 269: 268: 67: 66: 16:(Redirected from 1888: 1777: 1603: 1482:Who is Hardin? 1096:December 6, 2005 1067:(1790), and the 571: 570: 567: 564: 561: 543:Native Americans 532: 525: 524: 519: 511: 504: 454: 444: 428: 424: 423: 417: 413: 412: 406: 402: 401: 395: 391: 390: 384: 380: 379: 358: 341: 340: 337: 334: 331: 330:Military history 310: 303: 302: 297: 286:Military history 282: 275: 262:WikiProject Ohio 256: 251: 250: 249: 209: 208: 205: 202: 199: 151: 146: 145: 144: 135: 128: 127: 122: 119: 108: 101: 84: 78: 77: 69: 61:November 4, 2019 57:November 4, 2010 53:November 4, 2009 49:November 4, 2008 34: 27: 21: 1896: 1895: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1887: 1886: 1885: 1781: 1780: 1770: 1763: 1717: 1664: 1597: 1548: 1480: 1449:Smerdis of Tlön 1445: 1418: 1399: 1371: 1301: 1065:Harmar Campaign 1013:". And we use " 1011:Harmar Campaign 950:Check this out 666: 647: 645:U.S. casualties 630: 628:Indian Strength 608: 585:High-importance 568: 565: 562: 559: 558: 518:High‑importance 517: 452: 426: 421: 415: 410: 404: 399: 393: 388: 382: 377: 338: 335: 332: 329: 328: 288: 252: 247: 245: 206: 203: 200: 197: 196: 195: 181:Become a Member 147: 142: 140: 120: 114: 82: 23: 22: 15: 12: 11: 5: 1894: 1892: 1884: 1883: 1878: 1873: 1868: 1863: 1858: 1853: 1848: 1843: 1838: 1833: 1828: 1823: 1818: 1813: 1808: 1803: 1798: 1793: 1783: 1782: 1779: 1778: 1766: 1762: 1759: 1758: 1757: 1716: 1713: 1712: 1711: 1710: 1709: 1663: 1660: 1659: 1658: 1657: 1656: 1655: 1654: 1653: 1652: 1547: 1544: 1543: 1542: 1511:75.135.144.123 1479: 1476: 1475: 1474: 1444: 1441: 1417: 1414: 1398: 1395: 1370: 1367: 1366: 1365: 1349: 1348: 1300: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1294: 1293: 1292: 1291: 1236: 1235: 1234: 1233: 1232: 1231: 1230: 1229: 1228: 1196: 1126: 1125: 1124: 1123: 1122: 1121: 1120: 1119: 1118: 1076: 1037: 1022: 961:Charles 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1464:Canute 1259:Canute 1244:Canute 1178:Canute 1155:Canute 1141:Canute 1081:Canute 996:Canute 992:mirror 788:Canute 191:Alerts 89:scale. 59:, and 1578:) is 1104:3,990 749:Myers 746:Kevin 1751:talk 1735:talk 1723:"? 1703:talk 1689:talk 1673:talk 1662:Maps 1646:talk 1628:talk 1610:talk 1589:talk 1557:talk 1536:talk 1515:talk 1468:talk 1434:talk 1407:talk 1388:talk 1359:talk 1342:talk 1323:talk 1313:BUT 1285:talk 1263:talk 1248:talk 1222:talk 1207:talk 1203:Owen 1182:talk 1159:talk 1145:talk 1112:talk 1108:Owen 1085:talk 1051:talk 1047:Owen 1031:talk 1027:Owen 1000:talk 981:talk 977:Owen 972:and 929:talk 925:Owen 911:talk 907:Owen 874:talk 870:Owen 844:talk 840:Owen 823:talk 792:talk 773:talk 769:Owen 720:talk 694:talk 675:talk 655:talk 579:High 117:Ohio 1528:AGF 905:.) 744:. — 710:to 651:NTK 217:Low 1787:: 1753:) 1737:) 1705:) 1691:) 1675:) 1648:) 1630:) 1612:) 1591:) 1559:) 1538:) 1517:) 1470:) 1451:- 1436:) 1409:) 1390:) 1382:-- 1361:) 1344:) 1325:) 1287:) 1265:) 1250:) 1224:) 1209:) 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