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militant trade unionism. Australia in the 1920s was not the same as it is today. Totalitarianism, in one form manifested by
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figures are listed under the name by which they are most frequently known: Lord
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peers, subtly intoning in early life "but I was born 1st Earl of
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1162:. His reply six hours later with a presumably clearer head lays out his position reasonably clearly. I agree the photos could be better positioned, but I don't have any problem with their being there. On consideration, your original post may have been interpreted as patronising, given its recipient was a user with a reasonably solid history including an FA.
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before I changed the intro on
October 31 it was "was the 8th prime minister of Australia...". Then I (wrongly) changed it to "was an Australian politician who served as the 8th prime minister of Australia". Then I reverted my edit back to "was the 8th prime minister of Australia..." Basically you are
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The WAP was supported by every
Australian Government regardless of ideological persuasion until the mid-1960's. There is no historical evidence to suggest that Bruce was any more committed to the WAP than any of his predecessors or successors or for that matter any of his contemporaries including the
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With all the talk about McKew beating Howard (assuming she has), I've been wondering what ever happened to Ted
Holloway. I mean, was he as well-known in his day as Maxine McKew has become in ours? Was he some sort of cult hero for the Labor Party? A large proportion of Australians could name Bruce
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When you use the phrase "exploited public fears of communism and militant trade unions" it does tend to have a negative connotation even though technically it may be correct. It gives the impression that Bruce improperly or unjustifiably took advantage of the contemporary false fears of communism and
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It's true that he was plain Mr Bruce when he was Prime
Minister, but he lived for 38 years after leaving that office, and held a variety of other posts, and for two-thirds of that time he was known as Lord Bruce. One could make a good case that was known to more people as Lord Bruce than he was as Mr
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who are ennobled, not those of
Commonwealth countries. There is a very notable difference, especially given the fact that Australia was so much more closely-tied with Britain then that the post of Australian Prime Minister was not of the prestige and independence it carries today. Therefore, the page
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And you're the only one to take issue with the photos, why? You're more than welcome to find a better looking photo if its the quality you're not happy with, and you're also welcome to fix formatting/layout/caption issues. Update: And i've just fixed them with better photos and captions. It's a nice
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Ah yes, now I remember. For starters, don't accuse me of deleting it. It is still there for all and sundry to read. And how can you argue only the portraits are copyright if they've also been around for over 50 years? And why complain about style or captions? You're more than welcome to fix/add. But
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a) You're the only one that takes issue with multiple PM images. b) I don't recall personal abuse (but hey, anything can be seen as abuse these days). c) See above re copyright. d) If you believe the photos are ugly, don't look at the man, or if it's the quality of the picture, find a better quality
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IIRC Rebecca (or CJ?) and I discussed this a while ago - I set some of the PMs as some were medium some were high, one was reverted, I told them of the inconsistency, and they didn't realise. We were deciding whether to catagorise all
Australian PMs as mid or high importance. But we never got around
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individual judgment these days, even
Debrett's which is probably something Robespierre would burn and I don't own does not stay still. Every Lord is different we have 'Mellow Scotch Peers wallowing in the well-aged style of the "Earl of Montrose" never Lord Montrose mind, humble hard labouring life
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Timeshift has cluttered this and all the Australian PM articles with redundant, unframed and uncaptioned photos. When I removed them, I was subjected to a torrent of personal abuse. He has now restored them. I am not going to repeat that experience, but someone who knows how to handle obstinate and
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I have deleted all the redundant and uncaptioned photos you added to the Australian Prime Minister articles. Knowledge is not a photo gallery and is not improved by multiple virtually identical photos. Also, the official PM portraits are not in the public domain. Intelligent Mr Toad 09:17, 27 July
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The quotes are quite startling to read in 2010. As you say, there were probably many MPs of the era who had similar opinions. However, this was the Prime Minister of the country making those comments, so they are very historical and relevant. I'm not personally aware of similar quotes from other
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The copyright status of photos of the official portraits has been debated here before and they were ruled to be not in the public domain. I'm not a copyright lawyer but that was the consensus of experts. The 50-year rule applies not to the paintings themselves but to the photos of the paintings,
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But it seems hard to justify that there should be one rule for British Prime Ministers and another for Australian Prime Ministers especially since as you mention, they were so close. Moreover, the policy doesn't specifically mention "British". The reason for the policy is to ensure that public
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In most cases it is not a matter of "fix and add." What is the point of three almost identical photos captioned "Stanley Bruce"? I don't object to multiple photos where they show different things, but these ones, and most of the others Timeshift has added to the PM articles, do not. I repeat my
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My original comment to Timeshift was perfectly straightforward and not at all patronising. Adding photos that serve no useful purpose but merely duplicate existing ones, particularly with no frames, no captions, and no regard to positioning, is not appropriate conduct. Nor is using the language
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This is a really good point, and thus far I have not found any consistency in the use of the term, except that the 'and' version seems to appear somewhat more. The term is actually not mentioned in legislation, as the policy was enshrined in a series of different acts. In parliament and in the
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I'm not seeing any evidence of any discussion at all, having checked this page, his talk page and yours. Also, copyright on pictures taken in 1929 or previously would have expired the year after I was born, which was quite a while ago. With allegations of abusive conduct, I would be at least
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When individuals received hereditary peerages after retiring from the post of Prime Minister (unless they are better known for their later career under an additional/alternative title), or for any other reason are known exclusively by their personal names, do not include the peerage dignity.
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This article quotes that he was born in Wombalano mansion in Toorak, yet most sources I've seen says he was born in a mansion in Grey Street, St Kilda. I can only find one source which claims he was born in Toorak (the National Archives of Australia). Certainly there is a plaque in
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2521:, you changed the article's introduction. You then undid your change. You are now edit-warring to keep your change in place while being unable to give any reason for why one version is better than another. This is not productive behavior. It's a complete waste of time.
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as the only defeated PM in his own seat, but I'd bet less than 1 in 1000 could tell you who beat him. So, why is that Bruce's defeat has gone down in the political annals, but the man who actually won the seat is even less than a political footnote these days? --
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ill-mannered people like him better than I do should make an effort to persuade him that these photos are ugly and useless, and should be removed. The photos of the official prime ministerial portraits, by the way, are clearly breaches of copyright.
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Firstly, I would like to note that I cannot claim to know more about the nobility than Proteus, who is truly an expert on the subject. His statement above on territorial designations above is absolutely correct. Thus, the article belongs at either
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http://www.lodgedevotion.net/devotionnews/education-editorial-articles/famous-australian-freemasons/large-list-of-notable-and-famous-australian-freemasons/Famous%20Australian%20Freemasons%202015%2001%2009%20with%20index.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
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Bite me. You hear me? Bite me. I'm sick and tired of crap from people like you, I could be annoying like you too but I choose to be productive on wikipedia instead. Repeated again for the hearing impaired: BITE ME. Timeshift 10:38, 27 July 2007
2241:, differ. (The article currently includes "and", but the ref that it cites does not!) If we are treating the phrase as a title (capitalising) then we should try to get it right. In any case we should probably wrap it in quotation marks.
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Maxine was already a well-known public figure, and I'd be very surprised if she ever slipped into the obscurity that seems to have befallen Ted Holloway. But trivia or not, I'd really like to know more about him. --
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lose his seat, but as I have said it is not yet official. When it does occur I favour the latest edit which states: For more than 70 years , he was the only Australian Prime Minister to have suffered this fate until
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opposition ALP. Indeed, it was the union movement who were the biggest supporters and beneficiaries of the WAP. The quotes are therefore out of context and give too much weight to that aspect of his government.
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which are clearly less than 50 years old and are someone's copyright, unless Timeshift took them himself, which I doubt since photography is not permitted in the Parliament House gallery where they hang.
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I'm in favour of waiting until the cabinet (and Parliamentary Secretaries) are sworn in on Monday by the GG before we edit this page. Just to make sure it is official (though I don't think it's in doubt)
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I am not arguing that the old photos of PMs are copyright, only the portraits. The old photos are just ugly and redundant, especially when they are not formatted to Knowledge style and have no captions.
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politicians in that era, but if you know of some, you should add them to the articles of those other politicians as well. Especially if a Prime Minister made speeches in support of White Australia.--
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Well, it's trivia really isn't it? Only die-hard political historians (Kim Beasley anyone) really know his name. Who really knows what will happen with McKew in terms of her historical longevity?
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Haha, you don't recover two percent on postal votes mate. All the election analysts have called it for Labor, and McKew and Howard have unofficially declared. But have fun dreaming on :-)
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directed at me in response to my original comment. I note he is continuing to use a very aggressive tone. This kind of adolescent behaviour is what drives many people away from Knowledge.
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This shows as only of "mid" importance. I must respectfully disagree. He was a PM, and the only PM in Australia to lose his own seat. I'd say that he was very significant. -
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changing an important article's intro without getting a consensus. It doesn't make sense. "was the 8th prime minister of Australia..." was how it was since 2013.
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While there is no doubt he grew up in Wombalano, I very much doubt he was born there, as it was apparently built in 1884, a year after Stanley was born ....
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Every modern peerage is created in two parts: the actual title, and a territorial designation, the latter normally in the form "of X in the County of Y".
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I would suggest "...won favour by responding to public concerns about communism and militant trade unions.." as a more neutral way to describe his role.
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There seems to be a convention not to include the "of" part of British peers' titles. The conventions on this subject are extremely complicated. Only
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newspapers, the use varies - Bruce himself in speeches says both. The Trove database records both phrasings in widespread use at the time:
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Bruce. But I don't much care which title for the article is used: debates like this greatly increase my admiration for Robespierre.
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I suggest that the words ought not be capitalised then, because the phrase (in any of its variations) is not a proper noun.
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one. www.pictureaustralia.org is a good place to start. It seems you want to make a fuss for the point of making a fuss.
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I call that personal abuse, particularly when totally unprovoked - I had never dealt with Timeshift before.
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Oh yes did allow minor cooling off period, relatively new to devoting time to reviewing. Yes it is. -
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expecting to see some evidence somewhere of dialogue occurring, otherwise it could be viewed as a
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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So which is correct ??? I suggest the article be mended to reflect the correct place of birth.
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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What is the point of including the two quotes in support of the White Australia Policy (WAP)?
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Since the title was Viscount Bruce of Melbourne, not Viscount Bruce, it should either be at
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Compared to an average article on a Prime Minister, Bruce is very well developed, adopts a
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These quotes when combined with the “exploited fears” comment cannot be regarded as NPOV.
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Bruce's article has no good article shortcomings in my view, having regard to all the
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Don't they everyone... The simple means of solving debates is that it is a purely
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should be titled as would be any, for example, Governor-General or local Premier —
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —
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Once the postal votes are in, perhaps we won't even need to change the page ;)
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I find that the opposite. Bruce exploited these fears just like Menzies did.
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removing? Destructive, pointless, and not carried out by anyone except you.
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to doing anything :P Wikiproject politics talk page is the place for this.
2017:: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing
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206 extremely relevant sources, all of which appear properly formatted.
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because it is not official yet. Please abstain until the result is in.
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He is the only Australian Prime Minister to have suffered this fate (
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Did the official policy name include the word "and"? Sources, eg
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feeling to contribute instead of taking away from wikipedia.
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I disagree. The naming convention refers to Prime Ministers
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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OK but then Barton will have to be high (and maybe Watson)
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which is inscribed that this was the place of his birth.
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Grammatically, I'd prefer: For more than 70 years, until
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seems to understand them, so perhaps you should ask him.
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original point that Knowledge is not a photo gallery.
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Facts from this article were featured on Knowledge's
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1005:Stanley Bruce, 1st Viscount Bruce of Melbourne
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2447:22:58, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
1881:could reasonably be challenged
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2531:10:14, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
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824:for non-editorial assistance.
790:National Library of Australia
760:This article is supported by
580:and see a list of open tasks.
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1308:But we need to be patient.
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1938:. it addresses the
1879:. All content that
1196:Intelligent Mr Toad
1150:Intelligent Mr Toad
1096:Intelligent Mr Toad
561:Conservatism portal
63:on October 7, 2013.
41:Knowledge community
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45:please do so
34:
26:
2069:with their
2032:Illustrated
1702:transcluded
1578:—Preceding
1348:—Preceding
1325:John Howard
1298:John Howard
1258:John Howard
904:the title.
238:World War I
2563:Categories
2544:Ak-eater06
2519:Ak-eater06
2442:Report bug
2294:Mitch Ames
2243:Mitch Ames
2159:. Cheers,
2140:. Indeed
1828:Verifiable
1655:Authorship
1641:GA toolbox
1136:2007 (UTC)
853:Examples:
149:column on
36:identified
2425:this tool
2418:this tool
2355:dead link
2197:Reviewer:
1741:Attribute
1714:Reviewer:
1678:Templates
1669:Reviewing
1634:GA Review
1618:Timeshift
1370:Timeshift
1266:Bennelong
1239:Timeshift
1208:Timeshift
1174:Timeshift
1121:Timeshift
1078:Timeshift
1029:consensus
995:speak up!
922:speak up!
888:speak up!
715:Australia
702:Australia
635:Australia
448:Biography
384:Biography
194:is rated
139:Main Page
2431:Cheers.—
2232:Resolved
2210:contribs
2157:WP:GAN/I
2100:relevant
2038:such as
2019:edit war
1683:Criteria
1580:unsigned
1516:JackofOz
1497:JackofOz
1439:JackofOz
1405:JackofOz
1350:unsigned
1333:JackofOz
1068:Grahamec
1013:Emsworth
1007:, or at
869:") (but
640:Politics
389:Military
234:European
196:FA-class
121:Promoted
2359:tag to
2341:my edit
1993:Neutral
1953:facts.
1951:notable
1810:fiction
1495:. --
977:Proteus
941:Proteus
788:at the
742:on the
610:on the
230:British
141:in the
80:Process
2351:Added
2306:Done!
2200:Adam37
2179:Adam37
2073:, and
2067:tagged
2040:images
2015:Stable
1812:, and
1802:layout
1720:Adam37
1603:Lester
1552:Biatch
1036:Adam37
980:(Talk)
944:(Talk)
865:(not "
857:(not "
847:says:
202:scale.
153:, and
102:Listed
83:Result
2048:audio
2046:, or
2044:video
2036:media
1831:with
1737:Rate
1704:from
1140:(UTC)
1011:. --
906:Wally
873:not "
183:This
29:is a
2550:talk
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