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Talk:Star Wars: The Force Awakens/Archive 6

Source šŸ“

446:, in which "mostly" and "widely" emerged as possible candidates that could replace "overwhelmingly". In fact, "widely" was used for a short time until "overwhelmingly" found its way back in. They are all rough synonyms of each other, including the newly-suggested "predominantly". I don't feel strongly about the choice, but I think if an editor feels the need to change it from "overwhelmingly" to one of the other choices, they're acting on personal preference and splitting hairs. I don't think an entire discussion is worth the gratification a handful of editors might receive should their intended preference emerge the victor. I say leave it as is and move on, and only discuss its removal altogether if new information warrants its exclusion.As for "fan reactions", we typically exclude those from film articles. There are very few instances of when they are permitted. Any source can scour social media or interview a random fan and get a reaction, especially the kind they're looking for to support their narrative or viewpoint. We have to be careful about those. It's preferred (per the guideline Flyer mentions) that we only mention audience feedback from polls that were carried out in "an accredited manner". I would suggest breaking that out into a separate discussion thread if that's something you really want to pursue. -- 653: 31: 803:"pick the top results off of google". I looked at the content of pages presented and picked the ones that I thought would provide valuable reference to the article. I didn't pick the pages because they contained a word in the title that fitted a pov or that fitted something like a restricted search criteria. Issue had previously raise with the wording "critical acclaim" in the discussion now in 170: 224: 780:. Since when has an article title (which is often not written by the author) supposed to be more important than the text of an article? If youā€™d prefer a more commonly used phrase, the term ā€œcritical acclaimā€ or ā€œacclaimā€ was used in a ton of articles and would easily be supported by a variety of sources, including aggregator Metacritic. 646: 639: 1113:
This isn't to say that any of the alternative options are bad, but "overwhelmingly positive" is clearly the more commonly-used pairing in English news sources, and I don't think that's an anomaly. The order we have here is about the order of preference I'd support at this point. I also don't think it
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sources" that both used "overwhelmingly" in their article titles. In my first post above I mentioned that I was concerned that citations were taken from mysanantonio.com and qz.com and I've indicated that Google, as one assesser of content, did not even categorise them as news. In my edit I did not
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How about something along the lines of "a star-powered superweapon capable of targeting systems across the galaxy?" This explains what SK can do that the DS couldn't and doesn't need to refer to the hyperspace stuff. Also, I checked again, and the dialogue does refer to the destruction of the Hosnian
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I would partially oppose your subsequent change, because even if accurate, as you correctly point out we state below it can destroy planetary systems so to say it's capable of it here as well is redundant. IMO mentioning that the weapon fires through hyperspace is unneeded crufty detail, but happy to
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I wasn't aware of any dialogue or images (beyond bright lights in the sky from a distance) that stated it was capable of destroying entire star systems. The hyperspace bit seemed unnecessary and a bit synthy (firing though hyperspace vs firing at hyperlight speed which is what is actually said in the
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I agree it's redundant to what appears two paragraphs later and should be removed. However, a very brief description at some point that this is more powerful/deadly than the Death Star should probably be somewhere in the plot summary. The film goes out of its way to clarify this, but writing that it
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I'm still of the mindset that all this effort and time could be better spent elsewhere, but I'll bite one last time. Replacing with "predominantly" isn't a terrible option, but it's an unnecessary one. If we go a bit further and look at how often we see the occurrence of each phrase in Google News,
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Iā€™m not really sure youā€™re familiar that must with how Knowledge coverage of movies works, which is concerning given the large number of edits you have been making in Star Wars topics in particular. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using reliable sources to describe the coverage of films. Not
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I think that wording such as "predominantly" should be used in the first sentence and that the fourth paragraph, instead of beginning with the apparent contradiction "Despite the overwhelmingly positive reception for the picture, certain critics found...", could say something like, "Contrary to the
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Editors have raised issue with this before and I predict that they will again. I say that we should present citations from the most productive and noteworthy of available sources and then simply present content in a straightforward way? I hope that we can progress with a simple, straightforward,
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I'm not going to pretend to know how the sources were arrived at, as I was not a part of that process, but I'm trying to understand what harm is being identified here. Is the issue about determining which synonym is ultimately picked and inserted into the article? Because if that's the main drive
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and the only guidance I can see that you've taken from it is to organize opinions into what was praised and criticized, which is fair enough. However, so much of the section has been trimmed down during the rework that we're only left with two very short paragraphs, with a lot of the wording and
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IT moved Daisy Ridley's name to the top in the actor's list. We could consider and discuss the following: Her character is the main character, obviously, so it should go on top. The list is one of actors. The actor represents the character, but is not the character. Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill,
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and resorting to nostalgia. He felt that it "didn't a return to the universe" from not having an original story of its own to tell in the plot, characters, and musical score, negatively comparing it to George Lucas' prequel trilogy, and that some of its climactic moments felt unearned.
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I reviewed the article afresh, unaware that this had previously been discussed, but was immediately concerned that the references for the claim to "overwhelmingly positive reviews from critics" came from the less prominent sources mysanantonio.com and qz.com. I did a search on
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Any source that looks into the divisive aspect is going to look into the Rotten Tomatoes audience score issue, just like media sources have. The source doesn't state that the Rotten Tomatoes audience score is valid. In fact, it mentions criticism of it. It mentions the trolls.
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Yes, and everyone is welcome to an opinion of course. I happen to believe it is a common way to describe a large majority. Now if we used a phrase like "universally", then you'd be onto something. Seems like this is rapidly descending into "hair-splitting" territory.
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wrote that "Science fiction is supposed to be all about exploring the unexplored, not rehashing the well-trod ā€¦ one of the most unabashedly creative enterprises of the 20th century has been rendered another largely enjoyable, but mostly forgettable Hollywood reboot."
690:. Who or what is overwhelmed? So the film had mostly positive reviews. Why not simply say that? Why suggest that a certain set of reviews, as presenting a certain judgement, were overwhelming? We can just say something like most and let the reader get on with it. 253:. I've got a lot of respect for what you do across a variety of articles and hope we can come to understand each other. The previous, shorter version, before the addition by the IP on January 6th didn't define what it was capable of 'annihilating'. I opposed the 1335:
been quoted, their placement at the end of the first paragraph seems very haphazard and gives it little sense of flow. I can understand if you'd wanted to trim the section, but in my opinion it still could have been achieved by better detailing the sources.
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hear otherwise. Is there any evidence in the film or official lore that it destroys entire systems rather than planets? I hadn't noticed the other reference lower down, but I won't touch it as this section also been pretty stable, pending this discussion.
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Since when are we supposed to pick the top results off of google? I fail to see how this has ever been remotely relevant in how Knowledge determines which sources are reliable or not. Also, youā€™re explicitly searching for search results in the
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I think that, as qualifiers go, other options could be more encyclopedic than "overwhelmingly". "Overwhelmingly" is akin to "overflow" and suggests a numerical quantifiation that discounts the rest. Other qualifiers don't do this.
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when used in this context as a quantifier. We are simply invoking it's definition "very great in number", and using it in the sense of an "overwhelming majority". That is a common, straight-forward way of describing a vast majority.
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Iā€™m not gonna relitigate TLJ but I will say that source mentions the audience score, which was proven to be manipulated. Itā€™s safe to say any source that mentions online audience scores as reputable is not really great quality imo.
737:" but I agree in what you say about RS. I've initiated with you on your user page which might be a more appropriate forum for more personal discussion. If you want I'd be happy for you to delete this comment along with yours. 1100: 1106: 1094: 404:
edit, I removed the "Despite" piece as unnecessary and repetitive. Regarding your edits, I will state that you should be aware of how the critical reception sections of film articles are commonly written. Regarding
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I guess they these reviewers didn't get the memo about being overwhelmed and I'd see the "critically acclaimed" wording as less problematic in regard to policy that the overwhelming puffery.
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Comment: I don't agree that an "Audience response", which is about more than just what fans think, should only be included in historical cases. We include them when they are warranted per
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aggregations with a numerical quantity, be it 29 percent positive reviews or 99 percent positive reviews: Just give the number and let the reader draw their own conclusion. I know we have
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Everyone else said things about as well as I could so Iā€™ll just concur with them, especially on ā€œfan reactionsā€, which 99% of the time arenā€™t notable. In fact, online audience scores are
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Regarding the edit "02:42, 16 January 2019ā€Ž Branjsmith94 (talk | contribs)ā€Ž . . (220,940 bytes) (0)ā€Ž . . (Daisy Ridley is the main character of this film, as stated in interviews.) "
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is not a numerical quantifier. All the examples listed above are. We are comparing these to one another, not to other random words that are obvious violations of PUFFERY. --
548:. To say that this is "a historically appropriate exception" (although I stated that the divisive aspect would be noted in academic books, and I was right...as seen with 1261:, you'll find numerous discussions in which many veteran editors disagree on whether a summary statement should be used. There was never a consensus to add guidance to 841: 618:
sources, both happen to use "overwhelmingly" in their article titles, perhaps it's not surprising that this wording 'found its way back in'. The situation smacks of
1331:. There's no quoting of the individual reviews used for summarizing the aspects that were praised, and while the examples used for the musical score and screenplay 1146:
Just because news reporters refer to people and things that they regard as "legendary", that doesn't mean we are warrented to use Knowledge's voice to do the same.
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either. All of these debates ended in stalemates, with editors understanding that it would be handled on a case-by-case basis. It just so happens this article,
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The "official" databank entry for starkiller base (starwars.com) also just talks about sterilising entire planets with a single shot (rather than systems).
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Change: It was produced by Lucasfilm Ltd., Abrams's production company Bad Robot Productions, and distributed by Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures.
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To: It was produced by Lucasfilm Ltd. and Abrams's production company Bad Robot Productions, and distributed by Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures.
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an improvement here and are heavily skewed towards negative criticism - an odd move for a film that was, by all accounts, critically acclaimed.
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wrote that Abrams had delivered "everything we expect, as opposed to those nebulous wonders we didn't know we wanted". Reviewing for
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Carrie Fisher, Oscar Isaac, Lupita Nyong'o, all, maybe, more recognizable. Her name should follow theirs when listed by real name.
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that it was "the work of a talented mimic or ventriloquist who can just about cover for the fact that he has nothing much to say".
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that covers audience reaction. And such unquantifiable, hyperbolic adjectives as "overwhelmingly" do not belong at all ā€” we have
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Taking a step back, in my last post I commented on consecutively presented citations "which both come from less notable and
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and, failing to find the previous references but finding relevant content from latimes.com and indiewire.com, I attempted
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This is in addition to Metacritic. If weā€™re going to use a modifier, ā€œcritically acclaimedā€ seems like an accurate one.
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I also think that relevant reports on fan reactions to the film could have inclusion in the critical response section.
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Here's how I see issues as relating to the "critical acclaim..." phrase. As mentioned, editors on this article have
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of 8.27/10. ..." and present a straightforward lead into the content. Wording like "mostly" and "widely" also works.
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editing with editors having having either cherry-picked or mined for references that supplied wording to suit their
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In context that the first two citations that are presented for the wording, which both come from less notable and
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Following my tweaking of your edits to the section, I just wanted to give my thoughts on the re-written
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using the term "international" and some articles use phrases such as "and in other terriritories". --
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rare, historically appropriate exceptions such as the 1970s fandom that kept the cancelled original
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I agree with my colleagues that fan reaction has no place in a WikiProject Film article except for
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we order the cast based on the credits, not based on our perceptions of their importance. Thanks.ā€”
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reported that 91% of critics have given the film a positive review based on 457 reviews, with an
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after those guidelines began, I don't see any harm in adding a note to this effect in FILMMOS. --
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I fail to see the point of this analysis. An overwhelming majority of reviews doesn't mean
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I'm left to wonder about the process that editors used to compiled the existing citations.
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reviews. This paragraph represents a slice of the minority viewpoint in accordance with
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2019 "Disney's Star Wars: Forces of Production, Promotion, and Reception" source, from
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Since this article is on my watchlist, I ask that you don't ping me to this talk page.
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can destroy a "planetary system" doesn't necessarily make this obvious to readers. --
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system so I stand corrected. I'm fine now with leaving the second reference as-is.
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In this case Knowledge has not presented its own numerator or qualifier thereof.
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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Re: "Daisy Ridley is the main character of this film, as stated in interviews."
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and this discussion has been started for further debate on the matter. With
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Questioning your understanding of a policy area is not a personal attack.
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trilogy," . Then again some of that wording might be dumped altogether.
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the previous references for "overwhelmingly positive" since that is the
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citations having been taken directly from the Reception section on the
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trilogy, some expressing their opinion that the film was essentially a
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predominantly positive reception for the picture, some critics viewed
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Edit request rephrase to avoid unnecessary use of the term "overseas"
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narrative doesn't outright destroy the picture". Brian Merchant of
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only is it common, itā€™s actually in keeping with our policies here.
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because I don't really see the reasoning behind it. You've quoted
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the scathing fourth paragraph of the critical responses section
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returned six results (with some pages copying the same content)
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I'm not debating the "overwhelmingly positive" thing again. I
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received predominently positive reviews from critics. On
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behind this, that would seem kind of petty. No offense. --
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allintitle: force awakens reviews 1 Dec 2015 -- 1 Jan 2016
560:. But it is true that these sections are rarely needed. 903: 541: 414: 406: 401: 393: 345: 254: 540:. After much discussion (including RfCs), we included 838:
Hereā€™s a handful of sources I found in five minutes:
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already, but given that we're still discussing this
725:I'm not really sure you're familiar with policy on 96:to avoid the repeated use of the term "overseas". 810:My proposal is that we simply say something like " 640:allintitle: "force awakens" reviews overwhelmingly 1355:reverted to a prior version. Chompy's edits are 1289:go as far as having it displayed in the lead. -- 633:allintitle: force awakens reviews overwhelmingly 419:Knowledge:Manual of Style/Film#Audience response 161:Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2019 1257:Correct, and if you search the talk archive at 8: 895:(out of sequence but relating to the above) 1228:Star Wars: The Last Jedi#Critical response 924: 694:encyclopedic edit without the hyperbole. 442:This has been brought up several times in 201:Third sentence of the body of the page. 927: 686:The guideline is that we should avoid 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 807:but you can certainly make your case. 366:Pinging previously involved editors: 7: 1283:I mean, hell, some articles such as 654:allintitle: "force awakens" reviews 647:allintitle: "force awakens" reviews 729:which advises that we "Comment on 556:, pages 314-320) would be akin to 24: 18:Talk:Star Wars: The Force Awakens 222: 168: 29: 542:the "Audience response" section 146:Thanks for your edits, but per 1087:- "overwhelmingly positive" ā€“ 656:returned "About 2,830 results" 635:did not match any news results 356:as derivative of the original 239:20:38, 24 September 2019 (UTC) 217:18:45, 24 September 2019 (UTC) 1: 1373:13:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 1346:13:34, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 1099:- "predominantly positive" ā€“ 688:Words that may introduce bias 1299:08:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 1279:08:51, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 1253:08:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 1200:06:29, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 1185:06:04, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 1172:05:56, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 1154:05:50, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 1129:05:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 1051:07:07, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 1029:05:37, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 887:21:02, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 834:20:50, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 812:Star Wars: The Force Awakens 794:19:41, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 763:21:24, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 745:21:16, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 721:20:21, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 702:20:15, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 682:19:14, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 667:18:24, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 649:returned "About 102 results" 604:20:41, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 589:20:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 570:20:16, 13 January 2020 (UTC) 526:23:39, 12 January 2020 (UTC) 500:19:47, 12 January 2020 (UTC) 456:17:57, 12 January 2020 (UTC) 436:16:50, 12 January 2020 (UTC) 387:16:16, 12 January 2020 (UTC) 181:Star Wars: The Force Awakens 155:04:24, 16 January 2019 (UTC) 141:02:57, 16 January 2019 (UTC) 1307:Re-worked Critical response 954:. Andrew O'Hehir wrote for 940:derivative of the original 325:14:03, 9 January 2020 (UTC) 311:12:33, 9 January 2020 (UTC) 296:12:15, 9 January 2020 (UTC) 280:10:27, 9 January 2020 (UTC) 195:to reactivate your request. 183:has been answered. Set the 99:The Knowledge project film 1389: 413:consensus. And stuff like 1135:From the word listing at 554:University of Iowa Press 546:Star Wars: The Last Jedi 113:20:21, 29 May 2018 (UTC) 1084:here's what we'd find: 1105:- "widely positive" ā€“ 1093:- "mostly positive" ā€“ 936:Certain critics found 904:used in other articles 902:and yet it is clearly 315:Is be okay with that. 470:a viable IP. We have 42:of past discussions. 1230:simply begins: "The 1158:Apples and oranges. 1141:gets 67,900,000 hits 101:style guide suggests 92:Please rephrase the 900:objected to its use 805:Archive_5#Reception 1286:Terminator Genisys 962:Stephanie Zacharek 857:Hollywood Reporter 778:article title only 257:addition because: 1320:Critical response 1232:review aggregator 1003: 1002: 938:The Force Awakens 816:review aggregator 558:WP:CRYSTALBALLING 354:The Force Awakens 199: 198: 85: 84: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 1380: 1317: 925: 652:In Google (all) 638:In Google (all) 444:past discussions 237: 226: 225: 190: 186: 172: 171: 165: 129:Just a thought. 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 1388: 1387: 1383: 1382: 1381: 1379: 1378: 1377: 1311: 1309: 1236:Rotten Tomatoes 1143:in Google News. 1114:qualifies as a 1004: 930: 847:Washington Post 842:The Independent 820:Rotten Tomatoes 800:less accessible 645:In Google News 631:In Google News 616:less accessible 476:Rotten Tomatoes 337: 247: 245:Starkiller base 231: 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735:contributor 472:Cinemascore 133:Liberty5651 36:This is an 1314:Chompy Ace 1101:1,400 hits 994:A New Hope 951:A New Hope 512:notable. 484:WP:PEACOCK 480:WP:PUFFERY 411:Metacritic 234:KuyaBriBri 185:|answered= 148:MOS:TVCAST 94:Box office 1368:Nidhiki05 1160:Legendary 942:Star Wars 882:Nidhiki05 789:Nidhiki05 758:Nidhiki05 716:Nidhiki05 584:Nidhiki05 521:Nidhiki05 468:Star Trek 464:extremely 358:Star Wars 346:this edit 317:oknazevad 251:Oknazevad 79:ArchiveĀ 6 73:ArchiveĀ 5 68:ArchiveĀ 4 60:ArchiveĀ 1 1291:GoneIn60 1271:GoneIn60 1263:MOS:FILM 1234:website 1192:GoneIn60 1164:GoneIn60 1121:GoneIn60 1107:753 hits 1043:GoneIn60 978:Mad Libs 818:website 674:GoneIn60 492:Tenebrae 448:GoneIn60 394:restored 374:GoneIn60 368:Tenebrae 303:Scribolt 288:GoneIn60 272:Scribolt 255:original 152:TAnthony 1351:I have 1259:WT:FILM 1137:WP:Puff 867:Fortune 731:content 39:archive 1353:BOLDLY 1039:WP:DUE 973:Forbes 946:remake 727:WP:NPA 538:WP:Due 262:film). 957:Salon 510:never 488:years 209:Trobc 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Index

Talk:Star Wars: The Force Awakens
archive
current talk page
ArchiveĀ 1
ArchiveĀ 4
ArchiveĀ 5
ArchiveĀ 6
style guide suggests
109.79.102.79
talk
20:21, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Liberty5651
talk
02:57, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
MOS:TVCAST
TAnthony
04:24, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
edit request
Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Trobc
talk
18:45, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
KuyaBriBri
20:38, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Oknazevad
original
Scribolt
talk
10:27, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
GoneIn60

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