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as the actual Dutch term. While many foreign terms are translated into
English for the sake of the English encyclopedia, "Provincial States" is ambiguous with an actual English phrase, and the term seems unnatural and awkward (as the name of a legislature) to the native English-speaking ear. If the
583:
There is no official name for the provincial councils of the
Netherlands (either in the past or present), since English is not an official language here. So Luxorr is exaggerating a little when saying that the 'current name of the article is incorrect'. The editors of the provincial web sites will
586:
I am not a native speaker of the
English language, but I have the impression that a French word order is kept in English more often than in Dutch, so the present name does not sound unnatural. Also it makes sense to use the same name (in the English Knowledge) for the Dutch as well as the French
1221:
In the same way, while Dutch and
English are Adjective-Noun languages, French is a Noun-Adjective one. So it's a perfectly reasonable expectation to assume a translation from Dutch to English to also be A-N, except that in this case English has been corrupted by French influences.
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1600:" for municipal governments in the Netherlands. In my opinion, the terms "States Provincial" and "States of XX" can still be used as synonyms within the articles, even though their use in English texts outside of Knowledge is limited. ―
1162:"the provincial assemblies of the netherlands are"|"the provincial assemblies of the netherlands were"|"the provincial assemblies of the netherlands have"|"the provincial assemblies of the netherlands had" -wikipedia -"Books, LLC"
1225:
As they say, "Other languages loan words. English lays in wait in dark back-alleys to club them down and rifle their pockets for spare vocabulary." It is futile to resist this unholy assimilation of Dutch and French into
English.
424:. (Neither Flevoland nor South Holland mention their legislatives in their English sites.) It is obvious, though, that the current name of the article is incorrect, so it should be changed to either of these. My vote would go to
1137:"the provincial councils of the netherlands are"|"the provincial councils of the netherlands were"|"the provincial councils of the netherlands have"|"the provincial councils of the netherlands had" -wikipedia -"Books, LLC"
1634:- We ought to use the terminology as used by the bodies as it's available. Agree that is not clear if these terms are used outside of Knowledge and we should not spread misinformation about the name of the bodies. ―
1112:"the provincial states of the netherlands are"|"the provincial states of the netherlands were"|"the provincial states of the netherlands have"|"the provincial states of the netherlands had" -wikipedia -"Books, LLC"
801:
in
English of the French "États-Généraux" which is calqued as "Estates General", "States General" or "Estates-General", "States-General" (because hyphenation rules are different in French and English), and
734:
would be an excellent alternative; the clear and closest analogy here is the use in the
English language of the indigeneous names for the national parliaments of neighbouring or well-known countries:
837:
My rationale is not that the translation is incorrect but rather that it is unofficial. Whether it is a correct translation or not, I don't think we should use a term we made up ourselves. The term
1273:) and you will find zero results there as well. And since you didn't, half the search results concern the provincial legislatures of medieval France, rather than those of the Netherlands.
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says also 'provincial councils', though not pretending that this is a 'name', it is more like a description without bothering the
English readers with the official name.
587:
institutions. If it is chosen to keep the word order as it is, the use of the hyphen should also be more consistent. It is a little odd to see the hyphen here but not in
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I agree there's no uniform official translation, but I think we should at least use a translation used by an official website, rather than making one up on our own. (
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rest my case, as you suggested. I would, however, like to point out that the results of your Google searches are debatable. Since you've added "
1087:"the provinciale staten are"|"the provinciale staten were"|"the provinciale staten have"|"the provinciale staten had" -wikipedia -"Books, LLC"
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1062:"the states-provincial are"|"the states-provincial were"|"the states-provincial have"|"the states-provincial had" -wikipedia -"Books, LLC"
528:
can also be used to refer to countries that are "provincial"; per Ajax Smack, perhaps this should all be a dismabiguation page instead. --
1366:
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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I wanted this article moved in the belief that the term was found nowhere outside of
Knowledge, but you've proven me wrong, so I
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Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable
English-language sources.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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doesn't seem to be the proper translation. I've checked all twelve provinces' websites, and the translation of
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hasn't been used by any official source, any media, or anywhere else outside of Knowledge, as opposed to
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translation, and I explained how as a calque it is perfectly proper English. Then it was said it was an
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as used on the websites of the Dutch national and provincial governments are "provincial council" (
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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current title is inaccurate, use the term as it appears in its native language.
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By the way, an omission in this article are the States-Provincial of the seven
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
631:(before 1798), which were much more powerful than their modern counterparts.
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The point is to show the usage of the different title alternatives,
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is not consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources. (
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As a side note, I find that this RM has interesting parallels with
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Could you then tell us what reliable English-language sources use?
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should become a redirect to the existing disambiguation page
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, visit the
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that descended from the British Raj provinces before the
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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In addition to the provinces' websites stated above,
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where you can join the project or contribute to the
112:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
1262:, it's obvious the search results in nothing; add "
679:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
334:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1342:. No further edits should be made to this section.
584:make up a term which they think is appropriate.
791:but it is not meant to be a proper translation.
303:
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8:
546:(without the hyphen) already is a DAB page.
428:, because it's a more accurate translation.
30:
1375:The result of the move request was: Moved
1356:The following is a closed discussion of a
1204:translation, which I have just falsified.
873:Knowledge doesn't care for official names.
163:
58:
1207:It's time time to say, "I rest my case."
724:If this article's title was problematic,
1305:Provincial Assemblies of the Netherlands
617:, or the other way around. At present,
208:This article falls within the scope of
165:
60:
1703:Pages translated from French Knowledge
1536:– The correct English translations of
1301:Provincial Councils of the Netherlands
607:Provincial Councils in the Netherlands
597:After renaming this page to whatever (
564:Alright, fair enough. So it should be
1698:Pages translated from Dutch Knowledge
806:"General States", which would be the
785:the article's title was problematic.
7:
1592:). This is analogous to the use of "
1297:Provincial States of the Netherlands
793:"States-Provincial" is a linguistic
603:Provincial States in the Netherlands
339:The result of the move request was:
106:This article is within the scope of
1513:Provincial Council of South Holland
1495:Provincial Council of North Holland
1486:Provincial Council of North Brabant
488:possibly is a calque of the French
49:It is of interest to the following
502:linguistic reorganisation of India
25:
1693:All WikiProject Netherlands pages
816:States-General of the Netherlands
601:, with or without the hyphen, or
232:Knowledge:WikiProject Netherlands
1688:Start-Class Netherlands articles
1678:Low-importance politics articles
1655:The discussion above is closed.
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1459:Provincial Council of Gelderland
1414:Provincial council (Netherlands)
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1468:Provincial Council of Groningen
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1441:Provincial Council of Flevoland
1349:Requested move 18 November 2020
625:, which is not correct either.
599:States Provincial (Netherlands)
566:Provincial States (Netherlands)
146:This article has been rated as
1609:00:44, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
1568:) and "provincial executive" (
126:Knowledge:WikiProject Politics
1:
1683:WikiProject Politics articles
1673:Start-Class politics articles
1650:19:43, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
1625:13:40, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
1531:Provincial Council of Zeeland
1522:Provincial Council of Utrecht
1477:Provincial Council of Limburg
1432:Provincial Council of Drenthe
129:Template:WikiProject Politics
120:and see a list of open tasks.
1400:12:37, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
1212:Talk:Storting#Requested_move
623:Provinces of the Netherlands
300:États provinciaux (Pays-Bas)
1015:national government website
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893:The linked policy states "
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152:project's importance scale
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1657:Please do not modify it.
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327:Please do not modify it.
294:This article contains a
266:This article contains a
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1491:States of North Holland
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994:Provincial Legislature
376:differs per province.
39:This article is rated
18:Talk:States-Provincial
1260:provincial assemblies
849:. Naming the article
1500:States of Overijssel
1455:States of Gelderland
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109:WikiProject Politics
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341:no consensus
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304:fr.wikipedia
276:nl.wikipedia
220:project page
209:
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51:WikiProjects
1368:move review
1340:move review
1314:victor falk
1233:victor falk
927:victor falk
897:" The term
881:victor falk
829:victor falk
686:victor falk
440:victor falk
408:speak of a
368:– The term
332:move review
296:translation
268:translation
229:Netherlands
216:Netherlands
175:Netherlands
41:Start-class
1667:Categories
1614:Relisting.
1198:unofficial
605:, or even
492:(see also
454:HairedGirl
418:Gelderland
398:Overijssel
224:discussion
1574:Groningen
1550:Groningen
1194:incorrect
1056:Gscholar
761:Folketing
749:Reichstag
745:Bundestag
553:AjaxSmack
509:AjaxSmack
484:The term
448:Relisted.
432:Relisted.
382:Groningen
378:Friesland
765:Allthing
757:Storting
670:Relisted
462:contribs
412:, while
123:Politics
114:politics
70:Politics
1632:Support
1596:" and "
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1192:are an
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753:Riksdag
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150:on the
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903:Luxorr
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470:Luxorr
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