2846:, couple that with the fact that the fanbase is not "wt" any more then it can be wholly described by any other racial classification. The poor attempt at humor coupled with the racial and regional hyperbole (I'm putting that politely) along with the poor (non existent?) research that ignores that Jets territory (among many others) claims "Appalachia" would be shocking if the reference was a "reliable source" however given the business model of the PNT the more I read the citation the more I am realizing this was just meant as a joke and stir-the-pot extremism. Given the nature of the publication I can see it being used as "reliable" in certain narrow contexts on Knowledge (XXG) but much like the MarksFriggin is used as a Knowledge (XXG) source on Howard Stern articles it may not be appropriate for a Steeler Nation article. Finally I appreciate your continued edits and efforts on consensus and I can see you have added greatly to this and other pages however any perceived "consensus" to me is not enough to overturn factual inaccuracies on regional fanbases nor racially or regionally insensitive sources that I am increasingly convinced were meant for insult humor targeted at a regional audience by a free publication. My proposal mirrors by previous edit, a complete removal of the non-relevant PNT article and quotes with the other criticisms remaining. I thank all for their time on this matter.
2080:
misconduct of
Steelers fans to the desire by owners to have Steelers fans buy extra game tickets. There is no indication in the article or any other source that it is bad actions of Steelers fans that has caused the owners to implement these policies. Logic would say that if the 'behaviour' of the fans is a concern, then the owners wouldnt seek to have the Steelers fan purchase EXTRA tickets..rather they would seek to bar the fans from attending at all. This portion is vague and very misleading. The behavior that Mr. Rooney speaks of in the actual article is the fact that owners of other teams are upset because of the large number of Steelers fans who attend road games....not any misconduct that is posted in the earlier portion of the 'criticisms". I have been following the editing process and it appears that this section is increasingly becoming a source of misleading smack talk by fans of other teams. This is a strong concern for the overall credibility of the piece. No where in the article used as a source does it say anything about the 'behavior' of Steelers fans. Since there is no link established for that footnote...here is one for review
2799:, who lives in the hills, has no means to speak of, dresses as he can, talks as he pleases, drinks whiskey when he gets it, and fires off his revolver as the fancy takes him."" (Emphasis added) and "The "classic" hillbilly stereotype – the poor, ignorant, feuding family with a huge brood of children tending the family moonshine still – reached its current characterization during the years of the Great Depression" and "Slang use: The term hillbilly is commonly used outside of Appalachia, the South and the Ozarks as a reference in describing socially backward people that fit certain "hillbilly" characteristics. In this context, it is often (though not always) derogatory. Although the described person may reside on completely flat terrain, hillbilly is substituted in place of more disparaging terms, such as white trash. In urban usage, hillbilly is sometimes used interchangeably for terms like hick."
1716:
with the one or two unattributed sources among the many quotes in the NFL fan review a vast majority of the quotes in the article are positive towards the
Steelers and their fans and yet they are absent from any mention. The criticisms leveled against the Browns fans was based on a several factual events that occured at Browns Stadium and the same goes with the events surrounding the criticism of the Yankees fans. There are no specific instances by Steelers fans that can be cited in credible sources. If the goal is to slam the Steelers fans and attack them, then this section serves its purpose. If the goal of Knowledge (XXG) is to provide accurate and intelligent information then it is best that this entire section be eliminated. There is also the implied slam of even bringing up Appalachia. It is best that this section be deleted all together.
1941:, a division rival of Pittsburgh. This now attributes all of the critical articles (save one, which I also must address) as coming from sources that have some tie to a division rival (both the Browns and Ravens). As written, I would contend that our article implies that criticism leveled against Steelers Nation can come from a wide variety of sources, and here are some examples.......In reality however, all of the evidence points to this type of critique originating from a scant few highly motivated locations. Indeed, I've attempted to find evidence of similar “bashing” as it was put, from other cities, but could find none (the team, yes...the Pittsburgh area, possibly...but the fans specifically...no.) Since this now seems to be more a case of spillover from a
2805:: "The term suggests outcasts from respectable society living on the fringes of the social order who are seen as dangerous because they may be criminal, unpredictable, and without respect for authority whether it be political, legal, or moral. The term is usually a slur" and "It is used among blacks as an attack against whites. Use of "white trash" epithets has been extensively reported in the African American culture." and "Scholars in the late 19th and early 20th century explored the generations of families the authors considered disreputable" and "I grew up a mixed-race, white-trash girl in a country that considered me dangerous, corrupt, fascinating, exotic. I responded to the challenge by becoming that alarming, hazardous, sexually disruptive woman."
634:
However, it seems inappropriate to specifically pick out a few key phrases from one or two articles, and then say that the opinions of these authors constitute some sort of widespread stereotype. (Additionally...I could be wrong, but it seems bad form to specifically cite individual words from the same articles over and over again.) Further, I'd agree that the fact that these articles were written close to important games does not, in of itself discount their ability to be cited...but I would counter that it does put them into some type of special context, and I'd guess that these same authors would have equally choice things to say, many of which would be the same, about other teams in this situation.
2955:
has been refuted, instead different WP policies (which of themselves are also "uncensored" and subject to future "consensus") are linked to instead of answering directly any charges of PNT's bias, lies, irrelevance and reliability. In the collective wisdom of
Knowledge (XXG) all V, CON and CENSOR make exceptions for their use with such material like PNT's quotes. It's why the illogic of saying these things about the Jets area (applying the standards of "wt" according to PNT) are also reflected at Knowledge (XXG). It's not solely (or even half) about feelings, but since that is the point that is being responded to it becomes more troubling what Knowledge (XXG) defines as:
3778:
appreciate what deleting cited, reliably sourced, direct quotes from a person who knows exactly what power and effect those quotes can take on (the
President of the United States) would mean for the future of Knowledge (XXG). Now if there is a retraction or even a later article or quote from the President walking these statements back or letting it be known they were taken out of context (or even denying them) then I would love seeing that and we can adjust the article accordingly. Short of that (even though he makes clear later he is a fan of other teams too) the quote "longtime Steelers fan" is pretty clear.
1520:
strongly noted that the articles have no scientific basis and are clearly written to incite their own fan base to action. The statement is written as if it is a fact that the
Steeler Nation is unruly when all they are basing the statement on are opinion pieces which make it seem as if they are a validation that the statements are fact. Such criticism coming from fans of other teams have no validation in this article whereas there are national articles about the unruly fans of other teams/sports. I think it only serves as 'smack talk' to allow this to remain on the page
988:. Indeed, "Appalachian" is used more with people in the Blue Ridge and Valley&Ridge regions of The Appalachian mountains, and not as much with those people living northward of them. So I propose that the term used in Criticism be "Rust Belt", which is actually much more appropriate from a football standpoint as well, given that the Rust Belt also includes Cleveland, Cincinnati, and to a lesser extent Baltimore, which could help explain the similarities between these fan bases as well as the animosity between them (in addition to their status as division rivals).
2904:
and regionally offensive. All of these require its removal, real racism supported by actual facts is bad enough, we don't need racism based on "false" statements taken out of context by an article that claims no knowledge of the region, area or football. We have the opportunity to clairfy whether
Knowledge (XXG) is the place for citations that use racial and regional bias in place of and contrary to actual facts. Not certain how much more obvious (and irrelevant to the topic) PNT's racism and regionalism can be with that quote. Thank you.
274:
253:
1398:. Additionally, if you scroll to the bottom of that article, the "Outside perspectives and stereotypes", you'll see that, while there may be a perception of homogeneity, most academics disagree that the stereotype is being applied completely correctly in this case, hence the "somewhat erroneously", which is what I was trying to get at (albeit in a roundabout fashion). From an efficiency standpoint, perhaps hotlinking "somewhat-erroneously" to that subsection would serve that purpose, eliminating the non-NPOV bias.
2736:
legitimately claim suburbs of
Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Washington, D.C., Baltimore and Buffalo let alone their League assigned rights area as majority Steelers fans, or even Steelers Country or Steelers Nation though I am sure some fans are there. Currently for instance the Harrisburg area (part in Appalachia) is assigned Ravens territory, according to the NFL drawn map and the Phoenix article Ravens fans are "Hillbilly"? Not even going into
169:
148:
462:. The repeated complaints about editors who "don't like the Steelers" editing this article suggest to me a belief that an article about Steelers fans should exhibit a pro-Steelers bias, which is as misguided as saying you can't edit the Sarah Palin article unless you voted for her. NPOV articles regularly include criticism, and if you know anything about professional football, you know that such criticism can be over the top when it's about an NFL fan base.
626:. (Three Rivers Stadium was even smaller, which is important given that the study compiled attendance records from 1997-2006). Furthermore, if you look at the Percent of Capacity statistic reported in the study, Pittsburgh actually has a higher than median percentage (not statistically significant I'll grant you, but larger nonetheless). So to say that the reason for the low ranking is due to low attendance is a bit misleading, I think.
654:
Pittsburgh is far from the "heart" of it. Two, I think that the critisims should be better attributed. An opinion article which has multiple untruths and is extremely POV should be attributed to having been written by a writer from
Baltimore and not presented in the way it currently is which makes it seem, as was stated above, like a widely held opnion. Third, what is "less-than-commendable behavior" and who sets the standards for it?
179:
102:
77:
1652:
collection of letters to the editor, but the part that is being used for the citation is actually from the editor himself: "Tim: I'm not a hater, but I do think part of the animosity toward the
Steelers is based in the fact that many fans act as if the team got its start right around Super Bowl IX, conveniently forgetting 40-plus years of abject ineptitude. That is to say, they haven't always gotten it right."
784:"When all was said and done, the Pittsburgh Steelers and Green Bay Packers ended up tied for first. But much like the International Gymnastics Federation, we came up with an elaborate tiebreaking process in which Hall of Fame writer John Clayton of ESPN was called upon to keep things above board. Clayton, who grew up in the East Braddock section of Pittsburgh, picked the Steelers, which seems totally fair."
482:"When all was said and done, the Pittsburgh Steelers and Green Bay Packers ended up tied for first. But much like the International Gymnastics Federation, we came up with an elaborate tiebreaking process in which Hall of Fame writer John Clayton of ESPN was called upon to keep things above board. Clayton, who grew up in the East Braddock section of Pittsburgh, picked the Steelers, which seems totally fair."
46:
2795:: "Owing to its strongly stereotypical connotations, the term is frequently considered derogatory, and so is usually offensive to those Americans of Appalachian heritage." and "According to Anthony Harkins in Hillbilly: A Cultural History of an American Icon, the term first appeared in print in a 1900 New York Journal article, with the definition: "a Hill-Billie is a free and untrammeled white
1928:. This type of paper “eschews comprehensive coverage of general news in favor of opinionated reviews and columns, investigations into edgy topics and magazine-style feature stories highlighting local people and culture”. I think we can all agree that that would describe the types of articles that exist in the New Times, which must then place this publication into the questionable column.
3435:
to be in the article. Let's see what we've got. Oh, yes. The source is a single op-ed in an opposing team's hometown newspaper. That is a bit undue weight, yes? Especially considering the highly derogatory nature of the remarks? I'm not going to waste my time figuring out who is championing this bigotry, but I hope at some point they figure out how childish this is. --
21:
2053:
point of requiring reliable sources is that sometimes, the content of articles is going to be in dispute, and so we leave it to someone other than
Knowledge (XXG) editors to decide what goes in and what doesn't. I think a fair analogy would be arguing that you need disclaimers on citations from Jewish reporters who cover the Israel-Palestine conflict.
2741:
Wikipedian banned from editing, citing a source like this on the h.b. or w.t. page when it is dealing with a greater understanding of those issues is one thing, applying an obvious insult and poor attempt (as in they give away the publication for free "poor") at humor to a fanbase that proves it to be false is testing the limits of good faith.
3019:. I'm being misread if you take this as "you find this offensive", finding factually inaccurate and painfully irrelevant information offensive is what great editors are. Finding quotes of race issues inserted into a football fanbase article will offend. Any one with pathos about this article that wished to edit based
402:
strongly noted that the articles have no scientific basis and are clearly written to incite their own fan base to action. The statement is written as if it is a fact that the Steelers Nation is unruly when all they are basing the statement on are opinion pieces without any validation that the statements are fact
863:, but it isn't. I think we should say "ESPN named SN the best citing the sellout streak" and allow each person to determine the legitimacy of the study on their own; the link is right there. Obviously there are multiple inturpretations among us and I don't think either one should be imposed on the public.
1953:, blogs are only considered reliable if written by well-known professional researchers or journalists, which I do not believe either of these gentlemen are. They may very well be known in their local communities, but not to the general populace as a whole, which disqualifies them as reliable sources.
3841:
I commend you on your ability to justify the unjustifiable, but it really is quite ridiculous that Obama should be on this list. The source makes a point of saying that he was supporting the Steelers over the Cardinals for that particular game, but is otherwise a Bears fan. Anyway, I've said my piece
3777:
Reading through the page history I see another editor has made the point that it is Famous fans not lifelong or even exclusive fans. I think that point is instructive on what is appropriate for this list. I can appreciate Scjessey's point but its not that relevant to a listing of "fans", we need to
2108:
I have read your edits...I am not sure it is "anti-steelers nation" more as an effort by owners to take advantage of the fact that Steelers fans do travel by making them purchase additional tickets and their desire to not have the games appear to be Steelers home games. note that it is referred to by
1948:
Moving on, I noticed that two of the citations, Mr. Cizmar's article on music and Mr. Harter's article on food, were not linkable from our Knowledge (XXG) page. I managed to track them down through a Google search, and discovered that they were, in fact, blogs. This is another point where Knowledge
1481:
The last thing remaining, as far as I can tell, is the "stereotype" business. I'd note that I'm not arguing that the hillbilly stereotype is correct when applied to Appalachian peoples or to Steelers fans; I'm simply saying that the stereotype, as it exists, has been applied to Steelers fans. I agree
1342:
In the second, my main concern is adding "somewhat erroneously." You and I -- and clearly every IP vandal to visit in the last few days -- can probably agree that this is too broad a brush to paint with, but it also violates the NPOV and original research guidelines. I think the language in the first
1150:
I'd say it's getting closer, but there are still a few things to work out. My guess as to what other posters are uncomfortable about is the fact that this passage, as written, gives the perception that these criticisms are being written by neutral or disinterested parties, when that isn't really the
629:
Ultimately too, trying to rank something like fan support is extremely difficult (and in many ways subjective), and can vary quite a bit depending on the parameters used. There are numerous sites out there that attempt to do this, with widely varying conclusions, so I believe it would be appropriate
424:
It looks like this article was hit by people who really don't like the Steelers. "A tongue-in-cheek article for ESPN.com ranked Steelers fans as the best in the NFL, citing their "unbelievable" sellout streak of 299 consecutive games." I read the articles that supposedly cite this, and there's no way
353:
There should be some discussion about the downturn of Pittsburgh in the 70s when the Steelers were at their best. Because the city was falling under hard economic times, people were forced to move out. But the Steelers continued to be amazing so they stayed fans, no matter where they live. That's why
3434:
There's been so much trouble figuring this one out that we need an RfC? First, as a person who grew up in Appalachia, I must say that terms like "hillbilly" and especially "white trash" are pretty damn offensive. That being said, if you want to include offensive content, it should have a good reason
3023:
on their feelings would be on Browns articles. What this is about isn't who is offended but a poorly researched, poorly written, no-cost publication with no expertise on either the sport or region making several obvious factual errors and inserting racially charged and other biases into the piece.
2740:
Falcons and Panther fans. Also despite the publication type any citation that involves racial or regional bias that is not associated with the topic (in this case sports or football) should really not be included. The relevance is completely defeated if the citation is using terms that could get a
2438:
Something felt wrong about this study, and I finally put a finger on it. When Steelers Nation gets attention from the media, it's not because of the ability of the Steelers to pack their own stadium. It's because of the multitude of Steelers bars in every major city, because of the Terrible Towel in
966:
The "esteemed bloggers" in question are actually paid ESPN sports writers who have been covering various aspects of the NFL for quite some time, so it isn't as if the article simply canvassed random bloggers who happened to be free for the story. Mr. Sando (the author of this article) happens to be
945:
definition of the word (or indeed, the WP article itself) the true spirit of tongue-in-cheek is meant, I think, to say that the piece of work in question is meant to be a subtle parody of other ranking schemes, which I do not believe is the case here. (I may be getting overly pendantic, but such is
922:
I've attempted to update the scientific studies fan ranking section of the article to reflect the fact that there is more than one published source of fan rankings (an interesting endeavor to be sure). I am somewhat uncomfortable touting business journal articles as truly scientific studies, but by
858:
I still see no "tounge in cheekiness" or "semi-humorous" (both of which are POV) aspects of the article. The Clayton aspect is at ESPN's disgression, they were well aware of his background and allowed him to judge regardless. Likewise the criteria were at ESPN's disgression, what they are and how we
3762:
This article is about "Steeler Nation" - the fan base of the Steelers. There's no way Barack Obama can be considered part of that fan base, particularly because he's a lifelong Bears fan who would obviously root for the Bears in a Bears/Steelers matchup. To be honest, the "famous fans" section does
3728:
There are many hundreds of news hits on Google that say Obama is a lifelong fan of the Chicago Bears, and not a member of "Steeler Nation" as this article seems to claim. I'm aware Obama himself claimed he is a Steelers fan, but it was a pretty clear pander because of the Superbowl victory. He said
3588:
As noted above, the material may be considered offensive to those who are lumped into this group, but they come from an award-winning culture critic who's been employed by multiple Pulitzer-winning publications. I understand why the criticism makes Steelers fans sad, but I don't think that entitles
3173:
the derogatory content. The first two questions, regarding whether the source is reliable or if the content is offensive or even true, are irrelevant. This is because they are overridden by the answer to the third question, which is whether the content is worthy of inclusion. The answer is no, it's
2954:
To be clear multiple bias (including racism), multiple inaccuracy, multiple irrelevance and (although more subjective) multiple reliability are the 4 ways PNT's quote violates the purpose of Knowledge (XXG). I appreciate the time and resources all are contributing to this however no specific point
2839:
Thank you for valuing the work of cited additions. It was my intent to be overly clear above but I thank you for asking for clarity. Simply it is that the PNT article (other than appearing as not-to-be-taken-seriously and tongue-in-cheek) was poorly sourced (and thus inaccurate and false) by both
2442:
I'm okay with the study being on the site. Really, I'm okay with an objective approach here. But before the article was just edited, a study marginalized the obvious prevalence of Steelers Nation, did so using criteria that had nothing to do with the reasons why Steelers Nation is so prominent, and
2123:
The Bouchette article doesn't say whether the other teams were trying to keep Steelers fans out or just trying to take advantage of them. It lists both as possibilities. The Tribune-Review article, however, asserts that the problem is with discrimination against Steelers fans. P.S.: Don't forget to
1965:
is brewed the same way.” From this, one can see that yes, criticisms are being leveled, but the author himself admits that he's not being entirely genuine, and writing more so to simply get a reaction from opposing fan bases, rather than to make a constructive critique. If ever there were a place
1911:
I've really been thinking over this article a lot in the past few days (much more than I should be, probably) and I'm honestly starting to feel somewhat uncomfortable about it. I admit when I first passed by this page, I didn't take a good look at the articles being cited, and tried to incorporate
1748:
the sports editor of the Columbus Dispatch. Specifically, the quote being cited is: "Many fans act as if the team got its start right around Super Bowl IX, conveniently forgetting 40-plus years of abject ineptitude. That is to say, they haven't always gotten it right." If you read carefully, you'll
1715:
I am sorry but the criticism portion is still a hatchet job....the portion that says the Steelers fans have a poor understanding of their history is from letters to the editor by readers of the Columbus Dispatch and hardly rises to the level of review that makes it a credible source. The same goes
1667:
As the article currently features a criticism section that is still causing problems, I hope you won't mind if I go live with the current draft. I'm taking out "White Trash America" to keep you happy and leaving the "stereotype" section as is to keep me happy. I'd still like to get your response to
1486:
as hillbillies" instead of "classified as hillbillies" already connotes the error in the characterization, which "represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment." I don't see how qualifying the characterization does anything more than clutter the article. Is there
1162:
Like the ESPN article, I'd say that that information in of itself does not disqualify these articles, but it does have a big impact on what the intent of the publication is. What we are reading here is not supposed to be taken as a genuine critique of the people or the region, but rather serves to
633:
Finally, I'd say that the current revision of the Criticism section strikes a nice compromise between leaving the original content as is and eliminating it completely. I would agree that all fan bases have their detractors, and acknowledging that in the article would be an appropriate thing to do.
3601:
You've asked three questions so I don't have an include/not include vote. It's unnecessary to include the hillbilly text. The references are probably reliable. "Is material that criticizes an NFL fanbase using those terms worthy of inclusion on a page about that fanbase" is purely dependent on the
2915:
GrapedApe, appreciate your taking these concerns seriously, despite attempts to put those phrases in context it is past time we recognize them in their true context, inappropriate for any encyclopedia. An article that blatantly uses terms that Knowledge (XXG) states are offensive really excludes
2903:
in multiple ways (to be fair I really wouldn't research facts at all if I wrote part time for a free weekly that was solely supported on "sin" ads), you seem to be rationalizing PNT's obvious regional and racial bias with WP:CON. The PNT citation is non-encyclopedic in multiple ways, and racially
2783:
reliable for the reasons I stated above. Consensus is also not enough to overule that both factual definitions of NFL team territories, borders of Appalachia into Jets, Eagles, Browns, Bills and Falcons territories, the "southern" definitions of w.t. and h.b. Finally, please do not misunderstand
2079:
In the latest addition to the 'criticism' portion, a person has added a assertion that it is because of 'behavior of Steelers fans' that owners of other franchises have sought to exclude Steelers fans from attending the games. They are trying to draw an inference between the paragraph that alleges
1915:
First and foremost, and I know I've mentioned this before, I'm not really of the mind that a New Times article is a proper reference to cite. Previously, this has been more of a gut reaction that anything else, but now I think there may be more of a precedent set for exclusion. One of the common
1877:
Point 4: The sentence itself is unsourced, but the following sentences go into the specifics and provide the citations. I don't think that every clause of every sentence requires a citation. The teams that were cited were chosen because they had linkable articles that could provide greater context
1241:
As for the comments about other teams, I actually think that it is appropriate to include a statement as such, as again this type of behavior is not unique to Steelers Nation alone, but is instead simply another instance of a common occurrence throughout the NFL. In fact, given the context of the
972:
Finally, some of the "scientific" criteria, which I agree are poorly defined (another case of the author being "cute") do have a basis in human interaction ("live-and-die factor", "hate-factor", "tailgate-factor", etc...) which is actually something humanities and social science researchers tackle
950:
Immediately after the paragraph about John Clayton, the article says: "But even without John's gentle nudge, Steelers fans are deserving of the top honor. The decline of the steel industry in the 1970s coincided with the rise of the Steelers dynasty. At a time when the city's collective psyche was
621:
First, I'd say that the statistic about Pittsburgh fans not attending games is not entirely correct. While it is true that attendance at Heinz field is lower than the league median (though I personally would not use "well" below, as the fluctuation statistic presented in the study puts the number
572:
And although the tone of the article is different from that of the Associated Press, it does present the perspective of someone who was being paid to make a professional assessment of Steeler Nation in relation to the fans of the Arizona Cardinals. Before your changes, the article discussed that a
2823:
OK. I think I see what you're getting at. If you're upset about the removal of the information regarding the location of fans or the famous fans, I think those just got yanked when I reverted to restore the other material you found offensive. I don't think anyone would object to those items being
2052:
As for the sports loyalties of the writers, I'm not really sure they're that pertinent. You're more likely to have thoughts about an NFL fan base if you're a fan of a rival team. The fact that you have competing loyalties does not discount the fact that you're a professional journalist. The whole
1960:
As for the article from Baltimore, this too needs some additional context. At the beginning of the article, the author writes “Sure, I have a ton of respect for a town with a rich sports history and die-hard fans, but this is Ravens-Steelers week and The Examiner doesn't pay me a penny a word to
1768:
For every argument you have about the Criticism section, I'd be happy to turn around and make the same argument about the balance of the article, which generally takes a fawning, uncritical look at Pittsburgh, the Steelers and their fans. Furthermore, there's hardly a reference to speak of in the
687:
article. As far as your concerns with the Balitmore article, I don't know how the media market is relevant. If the publication is reliable, then it's legit to use. I'll concede that the current wording isn't ideal. My revisions used different phrasing, but were taken out by editors who considered
3493:
This is a no brainier. Cizmar's derogatory comments were directed at the Pittsburgh Steelers, not its fanbase. Therefore, it has no place in a article about the fanbase. On a related note, the entire criticizing section needs to be integrated into the rest of the article. Having it as a separate
2502:
What difference does it really make if Obama's not the most rabid member of "Steelers Nation". It's a great, free image of the POTUS holding up a Steelers jersey. And I believe that he's stated that the Steelers are his second favorite team after his hometown Bears (and what politician is ever
1973:
Whew...well, that's quite a lot to process no doubt, but again I think these are all serious points that we need to consider. I'm of the mind that this article is coming together, but for the sake of Knowledge (XXG) standards it should be done right. I'd appreciate comments from all interested
1956:
Next, in regards to the back-and-forth on the subject of the letter to the editor page, why not simply put in the whole quote on the page? That would give readers the chance to see the critique directly, and make it easier to understand what exactly is being referenced on the page. Also, to be
1778:
While I appreciate you taking part in the discussion, I think it would be helpful if instead of asking that the section be deleted -- which amounts to asking Knowledge (XXG) to pretend no one has ever criticized Steelers Nation -- you instead offer up an alternative for what should go under that
1519:
I am having trouble understand how "under criticism" they are allowing citation that is nothing but letters to the editor to be considered a reputable source or how they are allowing blatant attack articles to be used without clarification as to the intent or content of the article. It should be
1420:
inflammatory purpose. (Indeed, that's what the author of the piece was intending, no doubt.) From a purely practical standpoint too, I'd say removing the term would help to allay the threat of vandalism, as its inclusion would only likely serve to throw additional fuel on the fire, so to speak.
401:
I am having trouble understand how "under criticism" they are allowing citation that is nothing but letters to the editor to be considered a reputable source or how they are allowing blatant attack articles to be used without clarification as to the intent or content of the article. It should be
3620:
and it'll be clear which one) and must abstain, but I would in all friendliness suggest that people who are voting do disclose whether they are fans of the Steelers, as some have already done. This way, the consensus won't be tainted by the perception that Steelers fans are attempting to form a
3186:
Only one determination needs to be made here: Is the content worthy of inclusion? Period. So, are all the indisputably biased and derogatory descriptions used in a newspaper writer's editorial in the hometown of the Steelers' Super Bowl opponent worthy of inclusion? As I said, the content under
1651:
I think that addresses the concerns you guys expressed about "attack pieces" by clarifying that they are were published in opposing media markets in the run-up to big games. I can also add additional citations by national publications as well for some balance. As for the Dispatch piece, it is a
1419:
And as for the "White Trash" issue, I still believe the article is better served by removing it. I think a reasonable, unbiased reader can get a good sense of any true criticism without it, and I'd guess that many observers might get the impression that it is merely a "dig" that only serves an
1093:
I restored the Appalachia reference because it is relevant to the hillbilly stereotype, which seems to be the common thread of anti-Steelers Nation criticism, and I restored the references to poor taste in music and food, because those were cited with references by professional critics of those
887:
Hmm...that's a good point. Since the authors of that article do have a good background on various aspects of sports culture (at least they are equally qualified as compared to the business writers at Forbes and New Business Journals), I'd say it's fair to put them all on equal footing. You've
538:
I've made a couple of edits here over the past few days, so I will chime in. I'll concede your point on the ESPN article, but I maintain that the "Criticism" section reeks of bias and unfounded attacks. Using an editorial written in an Arizona publication on the eve of Superbowl would hardly be
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Finally, I thought the “White Trash America” part was too unique to a single critic, and adding all of the necessary background for it in the text of the article, as per the WP verifiable sources opinion piece section (printing the source, identifying the author,putting the comment in context,
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I have been reading these discussions over, first other than the cited free publication out of Phoenix that syndicates Dan Savage et. al., I've never really heard Steelers Nation=Appalachia, logically Pittsburgh is the largest city and only NFL city in the region, but unfortunately we can not
2510:
Also, what type of source would be needed for a photo such as this? The caption made no claim beyond simply describing the photo. This article seems to be begging for SOME image, what with the big white space in the upper right. If not the Obama photo, can't we at least add a photo of some
653:
It seems that some of the critisism section has been removed, but a few things I would like to see concerning the remaining info: One, which article used as a reference includes a reference to "Appalachia"? This seems to have no relation to the Steelers, and judging by the map on that article
3826:
I see where your coming from but its still a reliably sourced quote from a career politician that knew he was "on the record" and a Columbia-Harvard alumnus would by definition know the nuance of "longtime". No reliable source states that any fan needs to be exclusive 100%, neither does the
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I feel that it is relavent because of Baltiore's football team's rivalry with the Steelers, and obviously an article entitled "Why do we hate Steelers fans?..." would have bias in it. I have no problem with referencing bias information as long as the phrasing in the (WP) article is unbiased.
3672:
Like Batard0, I should not vote due to my personal disliking of the Steelers, and agree that all involved need to disclose if they are Steelers fans, Steelers haters, or neutral. Despite disliking the Steelers, I am urging for the inclusion of this if it is found to be relevant but material
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section, I also thought it would be a good idea to link to similar fan bases with similar critics, and I chose the two teams that, to me, seemed to have fan bases with the most similar attributes. Cross-information is a good thing, and I think this really helps to paint a complete picture.
1969:
Finally, I'd like to point out that it was not my intention for the article on Fan Value Experience to be used solely in a negative light. As another poster commented, there are many points of reference, good and bad, in that article and I'd like to see it included in other ways, as well.
3221:) Any sports franchise that's been as successful as the Steelers is going to have it's detractors. But as an encyclopedic endeavor we should be looking at multiple sources and developing an overview of that. And I say that as a long-standing and proud member of said "Steeler Nation". —
2808:
Please restore the USAToday, Post-Gazette, PennLive and other reliably sourced encyclopedic data and remove the racial, regionalist and biased information from an unreliable source that prints articles they know no one will pay for. Thank you for your renewed commitment to "good faith".
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relevance, reliability and factual foundations than PNT's article and yet was deleted almost immediately). The racial and other biases are part of and are not to diminish the countless ways PNT is poor and contradicting with an encyclopedia, but to allow for ample and generous
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I really don't want to get into a Steelers fans vs. others argument here so I'll point out a few issues that should be cited or removed. Likewise if there is anything that is too "uncritical" please feel free to bring it up here or remove it. The following are in reference to
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Not everything is substantial enough to warrant inclusion, and citing these comments, in this article, by this weekly, on this topic, do not meet the threshold of inclusion. I don't agree that derogatory comments, per se, shouldn't included here, just that these ones should
2701:, which together basically say "Knowledge (XXG) calls things what other people call them, and we report things the way other sources report them. We don't ever try to 'set the record straight'." "Steeler Nation" is clearly the best name for the article per real-world usage. —
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I'll try to avoid personal attacks and failing to assume bad faith, but I'm honestly having trouble telling whether you're being serious. On one hand, I'd agree with you about points 2 and 3, and point 4 is a reasonable question, but 1 and 5 don't seem like they can be real.
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Here are some of the "scientific" criteria used by ESPN judges: "Stadium factor," "Live and die factor," "Fans take loss hard," "Traveling road show factor," "Big presence in other guys' stadium," "Loyalty when team sucks," "Hate factor," "Tailgate factor," "Home fans'
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Here are some of the "scientific" criteria used by ESPN judges: "Stadium factor," "Live and die factor," "Fans take loss hard," "Traveling road show factor," "Big presence in other guys' stadium," "Loyalty when team sucks," "Hate factor," "Tailgate factor," "Home fans'
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stereotype was being perpetuated nationwide, and that the assessments listed in the article were the opinions of these critics, not a scientific fact or the result of a survey conducted by professional pollsters. This is not outside the scope of Knowledge (XXG): e.g.,
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themes for keeping these sources in the article has been that they are reliable sources because they have been published by third parties. In many cases this is true, but Knowledge (XXG) is very clear as to when it is not. In particular, I note the policy on
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For the record, I don't think it's appropriate to say that tying something to Appalachia is a slam. I have plenty of friends who were born and raised there, and they're a lot classier than plenty of Pittsburgh fans, such as those who've been vandalising this
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The concern about the Dispatch article has already been addressed for you, but I'll say it again. The portion of the article that says Steelers fans have a poor grasp of their team's history is not not not not not not not a letter to the editor. It's written
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As to the Appalachia business, the changes throughout the history of this article have nullified any need for its mention at this point; as the article used to say that the team had gained a reputation for "hillbilly" behavior. As it stands now, the point is
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For the love of the Big Chief, the Rooney family, Chuck Noll and all that is black and gold can someone please change the title of this article to the grammatically correct Steelers Nation? There is an S at the end of Steelers. It is plural. Please fix it!
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While I wouldn't dream of calling Mr. Sando or his colleagues dedicated scientific researchers, I don't particularly see them as any worse that the authors of the other studies either, so again, I think inclusion of this article -- with the caveat -- is
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This could be fixed by a simple move. It makes sense to me to change the name of the article to Steelers Nation. If anyone objects to this name change, please explain your concerns here, otherwise I'm supportive of undertaking the renaming process. —
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And what of the incredibly obvious fact that Obama is a Bears fan per thousands of reliable sources? There will never be a source claiming Obama walked back on the comment, but the preponderance of reliable sources stating his allegiance to the Bears
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It sounds like you want to take out the criticism because you think it isn't true, but we aren't here to say whether the criticism is true or not. We're here to say whether the criticism exists in reliable sources. It does, and that's why it has been
1935:. If we were writing an article on the content of the New Times , or even the works of the author (Martin Cizmar), these would be allowable sources. As it stands however, we are not, and I strongly feel that they should be eschewed for others.
1827:"Like other teams with large and vocal fan bases, such as the Dawg Pound or Yankees, Steeler Nation has at times been presented in an unflattering light, especially by fans of other teams." Unsourced, why specifically reference those two fanbases?
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Whatever you may feel about the subject, the reliable sources support what is written in the article, and the wording used was carefully crafted to achieve consensus. You'll need to bring reliable sources of your own to support your arguments. —
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Blogs are not acceptable as reliable sources because they are self-published. This is not the case in our situation, as the blogs are published by the papers employing the reporters, not by the writers themselves. This exception is addressed
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explicitly naming the sources, and adding in an aside about peer review, I hope this will put the issue in the proper context. Additionally, given the time-varying nature of such studies, I felt dates were an important thing to include.
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Also, one final point, on the issue of Appalachia, it is my understanding that while the people of Western Pennsylvania are technically part of the Appalachian region, they are identified in contemporary culture much more with the
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The caption did make a claim, it said 'Obama is a Steelers fan'. Describing the picture would be 'This is Obama holding a Steelers jersey', there's a difference. I'm sure there are a ton of articles out there that could be used.
3701:. Thanks to every participant, and I personally wouldn't oppose any future RfC given RedSoxFan2434 and Batard0's (IRWolfie too) suggestion though for obvious reasons that may disincentive participation and thus be impractical.
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Ultimately, I think this is a case where a little context goes a long, long way, and it allows non-experts of American football (like many of the people in my lab) to gain a more accurate perspective of the situation at hand.
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No it doesn't. Many people get "your" and "you're" wrong too. Doesn't mean that's what we should go with. And in the NFL Film John Facenda himself says, "Steelers Nation" and that's where it came from. This needs to be fixed.
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I also agree with the original commenter that there is nothing about the ESPN article that is "tongue-in-cheek". The phrase was removed, but has now been re-added. I would like to see evidence of this or it should be removed.
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I would agree, that another inage would be better and that a citation would need to be included that Obama is part of the Steelers Nation if it is going to be used, especially since I heard he really isn't a fan of the team.
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If reliable sources were that important why are the references of President Obama and the Eire and Harrisburg markets continually deleted (I could add January Jones)? I see only one source for the h.b. and w.t. and that is
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Tony Giro cited ..... as reasons Baltimore fans dislike Steelers fans" would work. The "Baltimore fans" should probably be included because that is the titular "we"... he isn't speaking for Bears, Broncos, or Browns fans.
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On top of all this, editors probably should keep in mind that if they have a problem with the tone of the content, Knowledge (XXG) is better served by adjusting the tone than deleting entire sections of an article. —
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Point 1: The Browns were first in the survey. The Ravens were ninth. The Bengals were 20th. The Steelers were 21st. The page is linked; the chart is there for everyone to look at. I have no idea what you're talking
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from the list, his edit comment was "supporting a team in one instance does not make them lifelong fans." The big problem with that comment is that Obama's support of the Steelers was not just in one instance. The
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itself from being cited encyclopedically, beyond the simple several facts that are false. Also, the only citation that states W.T. and H.B. I have read is the PNT, what is with all this plural tense? Thank you.
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Finally any concern that a "Famous Fans" section does not do credit to the article I would strongly disagree with, the purpose of the article is to encyclopedically describe the fanbase, including famous ones.
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It sounds like you're focused on the fact that you find this material offensive. Unfortunately, we can't rewrite every article that someone finds offensive. As I'm sure you know by now, Knowledge (XXG) is not
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the definitions of w.t and h.b. (mainly southern) and the League territory and Government Appalachia definitions. At least 11 other NFL teams have league territory (fanbases) extending well into "Appalachia"
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ridiculous locations, because of the thousands of fans that turn up in other peoples' stadia, and because of the fact that people kept their affiliation with the Steelers after leaving Pittsburgh in the 80s.
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view them has nothing to do with who they named the best fanbase. Seriously, I'd love to see more "scientic" criteria when it comes to judging fanbases. I could understand the argument if the article was from
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I'd strongly disagree with your assessment of the New Times article. First, the fact that it was published just before the Super Bowl is irrelevant. I'm sure you wouldn't support deleting any content from the
350:"A semi-humorous 2008 article for ESPN.com" how the shit is that semi-humorous. that should be removed. this seems like quite the anti-steelers page, nice job fans of other teams. steelers will always be #1.
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My main problem with the citation is that it's in the same paragraph as the other citation, which, when I first read it, make me think that the "tongue-in-cheekiness" was with the fan loyalty study in mind.
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quite often. Other criteria ("Stadium factor" and "Loyalty when team sucks" ...which is a terrible, terrible name for a criterion...) address the very issues that the other studies mentioned try to tackle.
3184:"If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Knowledge (XXG) regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not".
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Thanks for your work on this. I definitely don't want anyone to think that I'm arguing against including the ESPN.com article. I'm only saying that the Bizjournals article deserves equal or more prominent
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Other generic criticisms have included inappropriate behavior during games and a poor grasp of the team's history. However, it is important to note that fans in other cities often fall victim to similar
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I'd also suggest using "in Appalachia" instead of either "the heart of Appalachia" or "the fringes of Appalachia." I think it strikes a balance that's much less likely to be disputed by Steelers fans or
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ignite the passions of the fan bases close to a big game, similar to things you'd see in a Dallas newspaper the week before a Philadelphia game, or a Chicago newspaper the week before a Green Bay game.
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family, a newspaper that is historically known to address issues in a provocative, and often confrontational tone, solely to attract readership to sell advertisements, since it is a free publication).
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A generation of young people left the city to find work elsewhere, but they remained passionate about their hometown team. And that's why your local stadiums are often invaded by a black-and-gold army."
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Yes, I didn't mean vote, merely opinion based on policy. And I'm happy to have what I'm saying dismissed as theory, but I think it would be a wise thing to disclose in the circumstances. That's all. --
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I'll apply the consensus on the 31st day (about 14 days of the vast majority of editors participating in this showing remarkable restraint to allow the process to run its course) to allow for maximum
1945:, rather than a wide-spread critique, I feel that the scope of the section has changed, and it would be more appropriate to title it as “Rivalries with other Fan Bases” or something to that effect.
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I still strongly prefer previous wordings of the Criticism section. The current version is so watered down as to be essentially meaningless. After things cool off, I'd like to take another stab at it.
3948:(USA Today) even quotes Obama: "I am a long-time Steelers fan". So, is Obama a famous fan of the Steelers? Yes, of course he is. And for the record, I am not a fan or foe of the Steelers or Bears. --
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for the tongue-in-cheek characterization to apply, this may very well be it. If nothing else, it at least it lends credence to the idea of retitling this section “Rivalries with Other Fan Bases”.
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Bdb484 "personal interpretation of the facts"? I have given multiple examples of how the PNT citation rejects NFL rules, Federal definitions and other factual encyclopedic data. Aside from being
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in favor of your personal interpretation of the facts, we're probably going to be stuck for a while. I'd recommend reviewing those policies before pushing your POV on this article any further. —
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would have any amount of relevance, reliability, or even factual foundations on a football fanbase article irrespective of the publication (though I should point out MarksFriggin seems to have
677:: I appreciate the feedback, and I'll be making some edits to reflect your input. If you want to pass along some of the links to the other rankings of fan bases, I'll try to get them included.
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my nature...) It is definitely true that there are aspects of the article that are not meant to be taken seriously, as Bdb484 has pointed out. But...I would counter those points, slightly:
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I think the first paragraph is pretty close to what we're looking for. I subbed the Yankees for the Raiders only because I didn't actually see any complaints about the Raiders on their page.
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New York Jets, New York Giants and Phildelphia Eagles are also fanbased into Appalachia "h.b.", although I for one would love to see those counties be drawn into the Steelers territory.
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What this does, I think, is keep the unique attributes associated with Steelers fans in tact, but places them in a more complete light, which is ultimately what we are striving for here.
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Sorry to take up such a long discussion, but I think these additions and edits will really help the article achieve some sort of balance, and prevent sniping between non-neutral parties.
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that the stereotype is inaccurate, but I think the NPOV problem comes in when you say that the stereotype doesn't apply to a different group of people. Saying Steelers fans have been "
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As for the "white trash" and "hillbilly" references, I'm still not sure what you're saying. Are you arguing that this information should be taken out because you find it offensive? —
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paragraph adds enough of a disclaimer to let the reader draw that conclusion on his own. Is adding "one writer dubbed them" enough to leave the "White Trash America" reference intact?
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biased consensus to remove criticisms of the team. I personally think the "hillbilly" language isn't necessary, but that's neither here nor there given my own lack of neutrality. --
1217:, journalists from Baltimore and Arizona panned the city's taste in music and food, in the days leading up to important contests between the Steelers and those regions' teams (the
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The "Criticism" section that is currently live is not the one that is likely to be there long. After some back-and-forth, I think this is the version we're currently planning on:
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above policies) to tag something as broad & diverse as a fanbase with these 2 terms (inject race), the few justifications (balance and non-censored etc.) don't overcome the
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them too mean. I think it would be helpful if you or any other interested editors would be willing to put your recommended phrasing up here so we can find something that works.
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Yes, I believe he said his second-favorite team is the Steelers. I could go either way on the picture, but he is holding a Steelers jersey. It will need a source if re-added.
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Note that the reason cited is "to see their favorite team"...saying the reason also was to "take advantage of them (steelers fans) by making them purchase additional tickets"
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I intend to replace the material you've removed, but I appreciate what appears to be a good faith effort to get this right, so I'm willing to wait a day to hear your thoughts.
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remainder of the article, so I find it especially hypocritical when Steelers fans complain that the criticism section is too biased or that its sources aren't up to standard.
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which is tangentially related to fan rankings and might warrant inclusion elsewhere, but I thought I'd ask other people where it might go. On the whole though, I think this
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criticizing a fanbase in general should be acceptable if from a reliable source; however, I don't want this to be seen as a vote due to my allegiance against the Steelers.
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the in-article text in a way that would be acceptable to both sides. But I have now taken a closer look, and I think there are several things that need to be addressed.
1824:"It should be noted however, that none of these studies have been subject to peer review." Unsourced, Why should this be noted, and how do we know that they haven't been?
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I don't agree with your assessment of the included sources. The New Times is, of course, an alt-weekly, but I think that lumping it in with the materials referred to in
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495:"A team of eight esteemed bloggers was asked to rank fans over the past five seasons using scientific criteria such as 'Tailgate factor' and 'How well do they travel?'"
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this will be the second time that racist, regionalist and other biases have been raised with the h.b. and w.t. (as well as Appalachia) quote, this entire comment is a
1920:. Specifically, it says that websites and sources that rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions are considered questionable, and subject to different rules. The
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Disagree. The comments are actually pretty explicitly critical of the fans, rather than the team. I'm not sure you actually read the source, or even the headline. —
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If the vast majority of the reliable sources claim one thing, and only a few equally reliable sources claim another thing, we weigh them up and go with the many.
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is a mistake. The definition of a questionable source is one "with a poor reputation for fact-checking." I don't think the Phoenix New Times meets that criteria.
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I think we're not going to get anywhere on the "White Trash America" bit right now, so let's set it aside and see what else we can get some consensus on for now.
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If there is consensus adding a (among other teams) or I may be open to it, but would want to hear from others on this before we adjust the section any further.
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case. I think it's been mentioned, but never really addressed by supporters or detractors, is the fact that the articles cited in this section are two things:
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within the standard deviation of the mean), this is probably due to the fact that the stadium itself is one of the smallest in all of the NFL, as can be seen
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These are more gut reactions than cited sources, which is why I'm in the talk page and not editing the article. But I just want to start the conversation! --
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I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that people are allowed to edit the article regardless of which team they root for, as long as they keep their edits
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Steelers fans have also been criticized for inappropriate behavior during games — a common problem in the NFL — and a poor grasp of their team's history.
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If points 1 and 5 aren't just attempts to bog this discussion down, I think that one of us has a serious misunderstanding of the NPOV and OR policies.
994:(Also...from an aesthetic standpoint, are there any good free pictures that can be used to supplement this article? I'll look around the commons...)
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The same article is mentioned in the fanbase section of the Packers article, and I think it is given a much more clear and balanced treatment there.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110114221809/http://entertainment.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/01/11/steelers-fan-bret-michaels-ready-to-party-at-playoffs/
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to remove this factually inaccurate, poorly researched and inflammatory information. Consensus also built these definitions on Knowledge (XXG):
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They have also been criticized for inappropriate behavior during games, which is commonplace in the NFL, and a poor grasp of the team's history.
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The Towel was waved at the gold medal match for Women's beach volleyball at the 2008 Olympic Games, surprising even the Steelers themselves.
3939:. Also, many people are fans of more than one team. It is well known and reliably sourced that Obama is indeed a Steelers fan. When Scjessey
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1310:, journalists from Baltimore and Arizona panned the city's taste in music and food, in the days leading up to important contests against the
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considered an accurate or appropriate source. I will endeavor to "adjust the tone" as you suggest, rather than remove this section outright.
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3639:) gave you an opposite impression, you make interesting points but if you abstain they potentially may be (not by I) dismissed as theory.
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The RfC's goal is to allow participation (I think what you mean by "vote" while not purely a vote)--sorry if anything (and I searched for
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It is my sincere hope that misapplying V & CENSOR to rationalize its encyclopedic value (or any kind of value) will stop. Thank you.
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I would take that to mean the author of this piece is at least attempting to offer a serious critique, and not simply being disingenuous.
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3329:) bias and his "music editor" status, the language (slurs etc.) and clumsy spastic pseudo connection of "youtube", "trailerpark" &
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to either include more examples, or eliminate this altogether. (I've found at least one other study, and will attempt to find more).
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despite the still uncited (despite multiple invitations) Obama's "lifelong" (not starting till he was 26ish), & against applying
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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stereotype. Professional critics have panned the city's taste in music and food, dubbing the Steelers "White Trash America's Team."
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It still irks me that the grammatically incorrect "Steeler Nation" is used as the headline for this article & is un-editable.
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3557:- Yeah - this is an obvious call. Adding these comments doesn't move the discussion of the subject matter on in the slightest.
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pages that had citations from media outlets in the Pittsburgh market, and you'd be right not to. The whole point of requiring
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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the study was cited right at the top of the article, as though it somehow disproved that prominence. Does that make sense?
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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is nothing more from letters from random people, just because they are published in the paper doesn't make them reliable.
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is that even when there's an issue that has opposing viewpoints, these sources can be trusted to present the impartially.
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Are the terms "hillbilly" and "white trash" (cited to a newspaper) so vulgar or obscene that they violate WP's policy on
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I made the language more NPOV by clarifying that it is the newspapers that that believe that the fans are hillbillies.--
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3178:. And even if content is reliably sourced, it doesn't necessarily mean that it should be included in an article. Read
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Hello again, I've added some updates (but I was on a public machine in my lab and forgot to log in...many apologies).
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it's tongue in cheek. This is pretty ridiculous, and I'll be putting some work into this article if I get the time. --
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after I had made edits to the article. I commented in that discussion. There was no notice on the article page. :) --
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If we are ready to go with this, I'd say we should add it to the main page, and hopefully that will quiet the issue.
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Cool. Providing you give your reasons, and add your own references, edits that improve the article will be welcomed.
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going to go away from his hometown team), but that's really secondary for me. Do you really feel this article is
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see that the article is a back-and-forth between readers and the editor, and that quote was written by the editor.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Again, what you think is factually accurate (even if based on extensive reading) is not relevant. Please review
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Also note that, in the interest of fair play, I edited "tongue-in-cheek" to be "semi-humorous". Looking at the
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Is material that criticizes an NFL fanbase using those terms worthy of inclusion on a page about that fanbase?
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In your opinion it is the "best" name for the article. But in *fact* it is the wrong name for the article.
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Other criticisms have included inappropriate behavior during games and a poor grasp of the team's history.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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http://entertainment.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/01/11/steelers-fan-bret-michaels-ready-to-party-at-playoffs/
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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fields. Meanwhile, the laundry list of complaints has been removed to avoid the appearance of piling on.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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https://web.archive.org/web/20061209154421/http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_441131.html
4472:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
4328:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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http://web.archive.org/web/20120415065010/http://kdka.com/steelers/General.Michael.Hayden.2.911566.html
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https://web.archive.org/20090919013119/http://www.bizjournals.com:80/specials/slideshow/13.html?page=21
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when the Steelers have an away game, there are always a large number of terrible towels in the crowd.
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http://www.whptv.com/mostpopular/story/Ravens-to-air-this-Sunday-on-CBS-21/kkMyT9mXE0CIlmXw_Mwl8A.cspx
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Thanks for the links. I'll add them and try to make the article reflect their content more closely. —
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In regards to Appalachia, I would suggest (to be very specific) Northern Appalachia, as is described
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Additionally, I feel it is important to point out that Mr. Cizmar is a fan of the Cleveland Browns
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but I thought adding more would only serve to clutter up the article. Additionally, I came across
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http://web.archive.org/web/20110220035434/http://kurt-angle.net:80/wp/2011/02/06/lets-go-steelers/
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http://web.archive.org/web/20121014095423/http://www.seattlepi.com/football/257293_steelers27.html
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3149:(For additional background, see earlier talk page discussions, as well as the closed requests at
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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make points and they don't use "music editors" to write a sports (lifestyle?) column. Thankyou.
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absolutely correct, I would call this an “uneven” grasp of history, rather than a “poor” one.
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1821:"semi-humorous" is unsourced and POV concerning the ESPN article and it is NOT a direct quote.
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I also pulled the mention of other fans' reputations, which are probably better addressed at
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convinced me, and I'd concede that "semi-humorous" is probably not necessary in this context.
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if you haven't already done so. Now - that's not to say we should ignore criticism. (see:
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clearly not worthy of inclusion. Regarding truth, it's about verifiability, not truth. Read
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is live. With any luck, that will quell the controversy until we get everything ironed out.
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https://web.archive.org/20080229093601/http://www.bizjournals.com:80/specials/pages/35.html
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The issue of Obama being a Bears fan is totally irrelevant. The section in this article is
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similar things about the Packers. Even the source that is currently being used notes he is
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debate here is definitely not worthy of inclusion, which renders all other issues moot. --
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As well as the link to another article which explains in better detail why teams do this
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1166:(I'd also point out that one must be especially careful when referencing anything from a
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120601194317/http://blog.steelers.com/tag/reggie-jackson/
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4388:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by
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The unruliness citation is exactly what we're looking for, so I think we're good there.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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https://web.archive.org/web/20090601205933/http://news.steelers.com:80/article/99004/
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There is a clear consensus not to include this material from the Phoenix New Times.
2378:"The Mailbox: Like it or not, all you Ohio faithful, but Steelers fans here to stay"
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make nice.”, and ends on a discussion about beer with “Settle down, Pittsburghers!
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Written by journalists from the opposing team's city before those important games
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Actually, I'll throw the changes in here and let you guys tell me what you think:
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generally and PNT editor Martin Cizmar specifically considered reliable sources?
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3258:. Pittsburgh is a lot of things .. but sorry - "rural" is NOT one of them. —
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The fans have occasionally been, somewhat erroneously, described in terms of a
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4524:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
4394:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
4252:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
4072:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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number and quality of the sources. There is not enough information in the RfC.
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And so, in the interest of full disclosure, I'd suggest the following change:
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https://web.archive.org/20070926231710/http://www.steelers.com/article/40517/
3289:(Appreciation to Bdb484 for his/her time and opportunity) my views are known
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I'm hoping that this version is something people can agree on. Your thoughts?
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As for the ESPN article, here are some examples of its tongue-in-cheekiness:
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As for the ESPN article, here are some examples of its tongue-in-cheekiness:
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conclusions (the slurs). Finally PNT as a source I'm willing to accept in
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The policy continues to say that this type of article may only be used as
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Per ZappaOMati's comment regarding undue weight and criticisms section.
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
3384:, and if there's too much criticism added, the page is gonna be quite a
1818:"...behind all three of its division rivals in the AFC North." is WP:OR.
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cast as hillbillies, but they have been more than once. Adverbs aren't
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taking a major blow, the local football team offered a weekly respite.
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I'm not going to vote because I'm a fan of a rival team (look at my
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for authority whether it be political, legal, or moral. The term is
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As is common for teams with large and vocal fan bases (see e.g. the
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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Quite right on the Raiders article, a good substitutuion, as well.
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probably sums up the whole issue of fan ranking quite succinctly!
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and demonstrate that these criticisms are not unique to Steelers.
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Totally agree that the Criticism section needs to be removed. --
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and I'm removing this article from my watchlist. Go Eagles! --
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people . . . In this context, it is often (though not always)
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I did manage to come across some other articles online, e.g.,
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http://kdka.com/steelers/General.Michael.Hayden.2.911566.html
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http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/slideshow/13.html?page=21
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If it isn't even newsworthy enough for google news, I mean..
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I'll also note that Cizmar shows himself to be quite the <
1830:"occasionally been described" The word "occasionally" is POV.
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Like other teams with large and vocal fan bases, such as the
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I think the perfect citation for fan unruliness can be found
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Like other teams with large and vocal fan bases, such as the
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http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_441131.html
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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Also support removing the Criticism section per Coatrack. --
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usually offensive to those Americans of Appalachian heritage
2937:. It seems that your proposal conflicts with that policy. —
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etc...) would simply be too much clutter, so I took it out.
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anecdotes that even if individually true don't support his
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one of them, so I believe he was just trying to be "cute".
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
3908:(would had ended talk/RfC ~28 days ago). After having my
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This content dispute has posed a few different questions:
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parties, and I look forward to continuing the discussion.
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I'll try to get a citation for "commonplace in the NFL."
1318:, and one writer dubbed them "White Trash America's Team.
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http://www.seattlepi.com/football/257293_steelers27.html
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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http://www.google.com/search?&q=%22steeler+nation%22
2163:"Why do we hate Steelers fans? Let me count the reasons"
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I have just added archive links to 5 external links on
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It turns out I never posted my comments on this. Sorry.
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He has multiple teams that he is a fan of. So what? --
1611:, they have occasionally been described in terms of a
1299:, they have occasionally been described in terms of a
1062:, Steelers Nation has occasionally been tagged with a
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http://kurt-angle.net/wp/2011/02/06/lets-go-steelers/
3812:, one-game support of the Steelers, does it not? --
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and then finished with a phrase removing ability to
3309:(in a sociology/demographic sense). To me it's the
285:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
196:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
4528:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
4398:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
4256:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
4076:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
2587:and there are plenty of pictures in of fans at the
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I'd say we're getting pretty close. How about this:
4184:http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/pages/35.html
3099:RfC: Inclusion of material from Phoenix New Times
3589:them to whitewash their Knowledge (XXG) page. —
1155:Published very close to important football games
111:, a project which is currently considered to be
2319:"Arizona vs. Pittsburgh: Battle of the bellies"
2124:sign your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). —
123:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Pittsburgh Steelers
4514:This message was posted before February 2018.
4384:This message was posted before February 2018.
4242:This message was posted before February 2018.
4062:This message was posted before February 2018.
683:: The Appalachia portion is referenced in the
8:
4506:http://blog.steelers.com/tag/reggie-jackson/
3363:on Cizmar's WikiReliablity on sport topics.
3001:criminal, unpredictable, and without respect
2995:living on the fringes . . . who are seen as
579:Stereotypes of Hispanic and Latino Americans
3912:questioned then denied it may be better to
3763:not do this article much credit at all. --
2983:. . . hillbilly is substituted in place of
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4320:I have just modified one external link on
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4464:I have just modified 3 external links on
3076:Hi, I found about your dispute discussion
1866:" is pretty straightforward. They aren't
3494:section only serves to encourage people
3201:The source reads like a blog. It's an "
1951:Knowledge (XXG):Reliable source examples
210:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Pennsylvania
126:Template:WikiProject Pittsburgh Steelers
4356:http://news.steelers.com/article/99004/
2465:Isn't he a bigger Bears fan anyways? --
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1668:my earlier posts, if you're interested.
1487:room for movement on this on your side?
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3209:, you may want to also read the essay
2678:) 17:34, 7 February 2011 (UTC)Cruzer85
2636:) 22:33, 3 February 2011 (UTC)cruzer85
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1607:As fans of the only NFL team based in
1295:As fans of the only NFL team based in
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303:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Pittsburgh
4373:to let others know (documentation at
4231:to let others know (documentation at
4046:http://www.steelers.com/article/40517
3892:compromises to which OP replied with
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4601:Low-importance Pennsylvania articles
3118:The following discussion is closed.
2731:Hillbilly and Appalachia references.
2260:"Pittsburgh's 10 Greatest Musicians"
763:It's up above, but here it is again:
279:This article is within the scope of
190:This article is within the scope of
107:This article is within the scope of
62:It is of interest to the following
4611:Low-importance Pittsburgh articles
3325:, Cizmar's (a native of the teams
3052:Knowledge (XXG):Offensive material
2345:Cite has empty unknown parameter:
2286:Cite has empty unknown parameter:
30:on 2 November 2005. The result of
14:
4596:Start-Class Pennsylvania articles
4468:. Please take a moment to review
4324:. Please take a moment to review
4144:. Please take a moment to review
4016:. Please take a moment to review
2993:outcasts from respectable society
2959:Hillbilly: frequently considered
1058:Bonded by a sports team based in
213:Template:WikiProject Pennsylvania
3886:welcomed, read, responded for OP
3715:The discussion above is closed.
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4616:WikiProject Pittsburgh articles
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3253:withdrawn prior to posting: -->
3213:. You may want to check in at
706:Something like "Writer for the
587:Stereotypes of Native Americans
323:This article has been rated as
306:Template:WikiProject Pittsburgh
230:This article has been rated as
109:WikiProject Pittsburgh Steelers
26:This article was nominated for
3964:Article name change to Steeler
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1:
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3293:but to summarize its against
3089:00:58, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
2507:by the removal of this image?
2258:Cizmar, Martin (2009-01-27).
2211:Cizmar, Martin (2009-07-27).
2134:21:19, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
2119:15:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
2109:Ed Bouchette in his article.
2100:20:27, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
2072:04:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
2008:20:49, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
1987:02:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
1899:05:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
1849:02:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
1805:22:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
1779:heading, including citations.
1735:19:36, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
1710:17:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
1684:17:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
1565:17:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
1542:I agree with 130.101.213.96.
1536:13:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
1510:07:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
904:00:08, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
418:13:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
297:and see a list of open tasks.
204:and see a list of open tasks.
4582:17:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
4452:04:13, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
4128:13:24, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
3711:22:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
3111:09:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
2711:17:56, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
2688:17:34, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
2664:01:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
2646:22:33, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
2456:06:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
1618:. In the days leading up to
1445:23:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
1372:21:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
1262:19:06, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
1138:08:06, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
1038:07:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
1007:06:06, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
879:23:53, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
853:06:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
833:03:10, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
758:01:53, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
727:01:40, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
701:01:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
670:00:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
647:00:24, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
613:21:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
549:20:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
531:18:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
450:15:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
435:15:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
391:19:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
370:12:33, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
129:Pittsburgh Steelers articles
3331:Wikinon-reliable "Examiner"
3064:01:48, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
3047:23:05, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
3030:04:43, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
2945:03:03, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
2922:00:46, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
2910:00:33, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
2894:23:34, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
2872:22:36, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
2852:21:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
2835:20:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
2815:20:17, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
2771:18:05, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
2758:00:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
2747:00:49, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
2317:Harter, Jess (2009-01-27).
4632:
4545:(last update: 5 June 2024)
4461:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
4415:(last update: 5 June 2024)
4317:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
4273:(last update: 5 June 2024)
4162:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
4137:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
4093:(last update: 5 June 2024)
4034:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
4009:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
3999:02:35, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
3982:23:40, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
3335:Dihydro monoxide hoaxesque
2856:Well, if you're rejecting
2725:04:02, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
2607:13:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
2563:13:46, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
2550:13:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
2521:13:32, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
2494:13:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
2473:13:00, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
2376:Stein, Ray (2009-02-001).
329:project's importance scale
236:project's importance scale
3896:allegations bordering on
2161:Giro, Tony (2009-01-15).
1949:(XXG) is very clear. In
1429:Would that be acceptable?
943:Oxford English Dictionary
322:
267:
229:
162:
95:
70:
3717:Please do not modify it.
3120:Please do not modify it.
2967:. . . untrammeled white
1814:version of the article.
193:WikiProject Pennsylvania
4457:External links modified
4313:External links modified
4133:External links modified
4005:External links modified
3888:, I even offered a few
2973:poor, ignorant, feuding
2323:The East Valley Tribune
2987:, such as white trash.
2985:more disparaging terms
2621:Change the name please
2404:Check date values in:
2167:The Baltimore Examiner
618:A few things to note:
282:WikiProject Pittsburgh
52:This article is rated
3339:limited circumstances
2434:bizjournals.com Study
2382:The Columbus Dispatch
1926:Alternative Newspaper
216:Pennsylvania articles
56:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
4526:regular verification
4396:regular verification
4254:regular verification
4148:. If necessary, add
4074:regular verification
4059:to let others know.
4020:. If necessary, add
3941:removed Obama's name
2999:because they may be
2654:speaks for itself. —
2027:Questionable sources
1924:is classified as an
1918:Questionable Sources
4516:After February 2018
4386:After February 2018
4365:parameter below to
4244:After February 2018
4223:parameter below to
4064:After February 2018
4055:parameter below to
3827:article's section.
3691:Bot Removal Comment
3361:this is instructive
1862:Point 5: The word "
591:Stereotypes of Jews
309:Pittsburgh articles
185:Pennsylvania portal
120:Pittsburgh Steelers
83:Pittsburgh Steelers
4570:InternetArchiveBot
4521:InternetArchiveBot
4440:InternetArchiveBot
4391:InternetArchiveBot
4249:InternetArchiveBot
4069:InternetArchiveBot
3496:with coats to hang
3315:alternative/weekly
3140:offensive material
3121:
2969:citizen of Alabama
2797:citizen of Alabama
2511:Steelers fans? --
2416:Unknown parameter
2357:Unknown parameter
2298:Unknown parameter
2239:Unknown parameter
2219:. Phoenix, Arizona
2189:Unknown parameter
1933:a source on itself
1622:games against the
1359:What do you think?
58:content assessment
4546:
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3133:Phoenix New Times
3119:
2977:socially backward
2264:Phoenix New Times
2217:Phoenix New Times
1998:comment added by
1922:Phoenix New Times
1904:Reliable sources?
1725:comment added by
1526:comment added by
1308:2008 NFL playoffs
1215:2008 NFL playoffs
408:comment added by
381:comment added by
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4301:Talk to my owner
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3733:a Bears fan. --
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3307:WP:FRINGE THEORY
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4530:have permission
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4474:this simple FaQ
4459:
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4400:have permission
4390:
4374:
4337:
4330:this simple FaQ
4315:
4305:
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4258:have permission
4248:
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2169:. Balitmore, Md
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1113:Cardinal Nation
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4500:Added archive
4498:
4490:Added archive
4488:
4480:Added archive
4466:Steeler Nation
4458:
4455:
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4350:Added archive
4348:
4322:Steeler Nation
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4208:Added archive
4206:
4198:Added archive
4196:
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4176:
4168:Added archive
4142:Steeler Nation
4134:
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4049:
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4040:Added archive
4014:Steeler Nation
4006:
4003:
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3555:Do not include
3551:
3550:
3549:
3548:
3547:
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3524:76.189.120.119
3517:
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3491:Do not include
3488:
3474:Do not include
3471:
3470:
3469:
3429:
3414:Do not include
3411:
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3295:WP:COMMONSENSE
3287:Do not include
3283:
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3219:WP:NOTCENSORED
3199:
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3171:Do not include
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3081:76.189.108.102
3069:
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3028:MarketDiamond
3009:
3008:
3005:usually a slur
2989:
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2920:MarketDiamond
2908:MarketDiamond
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2461:Image of POTUS
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2000:130.101.213.90
1943:Sports Rivalry
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1306:. During the
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325:Low-importance
321:
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295:the discussion
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262:Low‑importance
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2858:verifiability
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2015:
2014:
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2012:
2011:
2009:
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1908:Hi everyone,
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1193:Raider Nation
1190:
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1172:Village Voice
1169:
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708:Baltimore Sun
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541:71.60.106.168
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397:February 2009
396:
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363:
362:64.178.98.159
359:
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42:
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33:
29:
25:
22:
18:
17:
4568:
4565:
4540:source check
4519:
4513:
4510:
4463:
4460:
4438:
4435:
4410:source check
4389:
4383:
4370:
4366:
4362:
4360:
4319:
4316:
4293:
4268:source check
4247:
4241:
4228:
4224:
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4139:
4136:
4113:
4088:source check
4067:
4061:
4056:
4052:
4050:
4011:
4008:
3971:
3965:
3936:
3932:
3882:
3809:
3805:
3730:
3727:
3716:
3690:
3689:
3669:
3636:
3585:
3554:
3499:
3490:
3473:
3455:
3437:
3431:
3413:
3389:
3382:undue weight
3377:
3338:
3310:
3303:WP OFFENSIVE
3298:
3286:
3271:
3270:
3262:
3234:
3233:
3225:
3189:76.189.97.59
3183:
3170:
3148:
3126:
3117:
3020:
3016:
3011:
3004:
3000:
2996:
2992:
2991:Whitetrash:
2984:
2980:
2976:
2975:family. . .
2972:
2968:
2964:
2963:, and so is
2960:
2953:
2900:
2898:
2802:
2796:
2792:
2785:
2780:
2777:
2737:
2734:
2715:
2668:
2628:
2624:
2593:
2536:
2504:
2480:
2464:
2445:
2441:
2437:
2386:. Retrieved
2381:
2371:
2327:. Retrieved
2325:. Mesa, Ariz
2322:
2312:
2268:. Retrieved
2263:
2253:
2221:. Retrieved
2216:
2171:. Retrieved
2166:
2143:
2078:
1991:
1976:
1972:
1968:
1959:
1955:
1947:
1937:
1932:
1930:
1914:
1910:
1907:
1888:
1871:
1867:
1864:occasionally
1835:
1833:
1808:
1794:
1745:
1719:
1699:
1692:
1673:
1664:
1644:
1620:2008 playoff
1606:
1583:
1551:
1549:
1518:
1434:
1328:
1294:
1275:
1251:
1248:
1244:
1240:
1237:
1231:
1201:
1186:
1181:
1177:
1165:
1161:
1149:
1080:
1057:
996:
993:
990:
982:
979:appropriate.
940:
925:
921:
918:
893:
865:
841:
837:
815:creativity."
813:
798:
783:
770:
744:
740:
737:ESPN article
713:
707:
681:Blackngold29
680:
674:
656:
636:
632:
628:
620:
617:
537:
509:creativity."
422:
400:
374:
352:
349:
324:
280:
231:
207:Pennsylvania
198:Pennsylvania
191:
154:Pennsylvania
112:
64:WikiProjects
4377:Sourcecheck
4235:Sourcecheck
3933:Famous fans
3573:Ssscienccce
3386:WP:COATRACK
3343:ad hominems
3327:chief rival
3311:combination
3211:WP:COATRACK
2738:Deliverance
2347:|coauthors=
2288:|coauthors=
1994:—Preceding
1992:Well said
1721:—Preceding
1665:AstroBjorn:
1522:—Preceding
1484:stereotyped
404:—Preceding
377:—Preceding
356:—Preceding
54:Start-class
4590:Categories
4577:Report bug
4447:Report bug
3898:ad hominem
3559:SteveBaker
2981:derogatory
2971:. . . the
2961:derogatory
2703:Bill Price
2656:Bill Price
2388:2009-01-31
2329:2009-02-05
2270:2009-02-05
2223:2009-02-04
2173:2009-01-31
2144:References
2111:Akronelvis
1979:AstroBjorn
1616:stereotype
1609:Appalachia
1586:Dawg Pound
1437:AstroBjorn
1304:stereotype
1297:Appalachia
1278:Dawg Pound
1254:AstroBjorn
1233:critiques.
1211:Appalachia
1207:stereotype
1189:Dawg Pound
1117:Cheesehead
1060:Appalachia
1014:treatment.
999:AstroBjorn
936:little gem
932:this piece
896:AstroBjorn
675:AstroBjorn
639:AstroBjorn
460:verifiable
383:12.4.233.1
300:Pittsburgh
287:Pittsburgh
259:Pittsburgh
4560:this tool
4553:this tool
4430:this tool
4423:this tool
4340:dead link
4288:this tool
4281:this tool
4108:this tool
4101:this tool
3984:cruzer85
3858:IRWolfie-
3810:transient
3750:GrapedApe
3618:user page
3604:IRWolfie-
3419:GrapedApe
3256:Hillbilly
3207:WP:WEIGHT
3180:WP:WEIGHT
2997:dangerous
2886:GrapedApe
2862:consensus
2583:Here's a
2420:ignored (
2397:cite news
2361:ignored (
2338:cite news
2302:ignored (
2279:cite news
2243:ignored (
2232:cite news
2193:ignored (
2182:cite news
1963:Natty Boh
1759:included.
1695:new draft
1628:Cardinals
1613:hillbilly
1316:Cardinals
1301:hillbilly
1223:Cardinals
1204:hillbilly
1064:hillbilly
986:Rust Belt
910:New Edits
685:New Times
4566:Cheers.—
4436:Cheers.—
4294:Cheers.—
4152:cbignore
4114:Cheers.—
4024:cbignore
3974:Cruzer85
3968:Nation ?
3844:Scjessey
3814:Scjessey
3765:Scjessey
3735:Scjessey
3637:anything
3586:Include:
3432:Facepalm
3341:when no
3319:"SinAds"
3313:of the "
3131:Are the
3108:Armbrust
2935:censored
2717:Cruzer85
2695:WP:TITLE
2680:Cruzer85
2672:Cruzer85
2638:Cruzer85
2630:Cruzer85
2505:improved
1996:unsigned
1789:article.
1723:unsigned
1524:unsigned
557:Steelers
406:unsigned
379:unsigned
358:unsigned
289:and its
114:inactive
88:inactive
28:deletion
4470:my edit
4363:checked
4344:tag to
4326:my edit
4304::Online
4221:checked
4146:my edit
4124::Online
4053:checked
4018:my edit
3991:DeeJayK
3894:Incivil
3670:Comment
3655:Batard0
3623:Batard0
3478:Bms4880
3215:WP:RS/N
3017:warning
2786:Warning
2601:ngold29
2589:Commons
2544:ngold29
2513:Deejayk
2488:ngold29
2418:|curly=
2359:|curly=
2300:|curly=
2241:|curly=
2191:|curly=
1843:ngold29
1689:Round 4
1590:Yankees
1559:ngold29
1378:Round 3
1349:haters.
1282:Yankees
1146:Round 2
915:Round 1
873:ngold29
752:ngold29
721:ngold29
664:ngold29
346:Comment
327:on the
234:on the
4371:failed
4336:Added
4229:failed
4160:nobots
4032:nobots
3935:, not
3906:COMMON
3806:surely
3731:really
3699:WP:AGF
3695:WP:RFC
3594:(talk)
3591:Bdb484
3541:(talk)
3538:Bdb484
3417:not.--
3323:source
3317:/free/
3299:pillar
3291:(here)
3176:WP:VNT
3162:(talk)
3159:Bdb484
3155:ARBCOM
3044:(talk)
3041:Bdb484
3021:solely
2942:(talk)
2939:Bdb484
2869:(talk)
2866:Bdb484
2832:(talk)
2829:Bdb484
2768:(talk)
2765:Bdb484
2560:(talk)
2470:(talk)
2406:|date=
2126:Bdb484
2092:Bdb484
2064:Bdb484
1891:Bdb484
1872:per se
1868:always
1859:about.
1797:Bdb484
1702:Bdb484
1676:Bdb484
1624:Ravens
1502:Bdb484
1409:| here
1364:Bdb484
1312:Ravens
1219:Ravens
1130:Bdb484
1119:, etc.
1030:Bdb484
861:Page 2
825:Bdb484
693:Bdb484
605:Bdb484
523:Bdb484
60:scale.
4182:? to
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