862:. Also, it's inappropriate to subject readers who came to learn something about a specific scientist to tiresome explanations of things that relate to the language in which the article is written. I often read the German or French version of a Knowledge article when there is no English equivalent and I would not want to be distracted by linguistic explanations in those articles. If I don't understand some aspect of those languages I'll look it up outside the confines of Knowledge, or certainly outside the confines of that article, as I do for anything else I happen to read in those languages. In any case, let's consider your hypothetical reader who had never seen that proverb. How does the explanation help him? He's merely told that X is a pun on Y but of what use is that if he doesn't know the significance of Y? So you'd have to mention that Y is an English proverb, and then by the same criterion by which you've inserted a hyperlink to
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whether something "spoils the effect of the pun" is completely irrelevant. This is an encyclopedia, not a joke list. It is supposed to be informative rather than funny. As for "witticism" and whatnot, you still seem to miss the basic difference between vocabulary and proverbs. The former is an inherent part of the language, whereas the latter is not, it is part of cultural background which does not have anything to do with language per se, and typically is much less familiar to foreigners even if they have a good command of the language as such.—
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obvious. The problem is that the explanation of the pun is an annoying discontinuity in the text that spoils the effect of the pun, just to accommodate a hypothetical readership of dubious quantity--dubious because of the option of many other languages, dubious because of the familiarity with
English and in particular with words like
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It's both unnecessary and self-defeating to declare that something is a pun, and worse, to explain it. A pun by definition explains itself. If the intended audience hasn't the requisite literacy for appreciating it, then its effect is null and void and it should not be used anyway. Think about the
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Oh, I see your point now, but your basic premise is fundamentally flawed. As a non-native speaker, I can assure you that it never occurred to me to switch to an article on Czech
Knowledge when browsing English Knowledge just because such an article exists. That's simply not how it works. Second,
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aspects of the language in which the article is written or that the article exploits. One would expect such explanations to be inserted as either references (hyperlinks) or footnotes. That appropriately inculturated readers could thereby siphon off some clandestine humor would not violate the
927:
The point about the 17 other languages is relevant to the claim that you're catering for non-native
English speakers by explaining the pun: in many cases a non-English speaker would have the option of reading a version of the article in his own language. I thought the point of that comment was
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is not a wholly objective notion. A given instance of wit may be funny to some people and not to others (and you know what they say about puns). Further, someone to whom a joke has to be explained never laughs as vigorously as someone who understands it as told. So to describe something
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that they don't) has any significant cardinality. In any case, a member of that set could be enlightened simply by consulting a native or sufficiently competent
English speaker or by pasting it into a Google search box. It doesn't seem appropriate for an encyclopedia article to explain
910:, the fact that X is a pun on Y implies (or at least strongly suggests) that Y is a fixed idiom, and anyone interested in the details can google said idiom. I didn't insert anything anywhere, I only reverted your deletions, but I agree that there is no particular reason to link to
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version. The thing is that unless you know that this particular phrase is supposed to be a pun on a proverb, you will not realize that it is one, since the proverb itself is a fairly idiotic combination of words which no sane person would ever use were it not for the fact that it
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a proverb. You cannot look up linguistic explanations outside the confines of
Knowledge if you are not aware that you have a linguistic problem (ignoring the fact that the classification of proverbs as linguistics is quite a stretch). There is no reason to go
1108:
There are some sources for "KLAY-nee", but almost everyone seems to say "clean". For simplicity's sake I suggest adding sources to the following list without using signatures. (I have replaced the y from the
Youtube links, because of the spam filter.)
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You have not responded to any of my arguments, you are just repeating the same crap over and over, and I'm not going to waste any of my time on this. I just realized that the whole thing has been tagged for "citation needed" since April
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and thus would immediately recognize and appreciate the pun without further explanation. To explain the pun is to kill it (and to annoy the reader). Note also that versions of this article appear in numerous other languages.
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I've already explained that it's the specific readership of this article that is relevant here, not the general readership of en.wikipedia.org, noting also that this article appears in some
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I don't see in what way is your repeated claim that this article appears in 18 languages relevant. We are not discussing any other language versions of the article, we are discussing
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is an
English proverb. Without this information, the whole anecdote becomes pointless nonsense. This has nothing to do with literacy, but with (non)shared cultural background.—
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This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class.
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the
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In the absence of any evidence to the contrary I strongly doubt that your hypothetical set of readers (i.e., those who don't understand the witticism and, moreover,
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that the article assumes anyway. Having said that, I'm glad you deleted the pun link. Have you seen the style of
English in which that article is written?!
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English on mathematical philosophy and to understand terms like
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as a witticism implies either that the reader has the wherewithal to see the humor in it, or the exact opposite, i.e., he
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