Talk:Survivalism/Archive 1

2932:

make that distinction. Just as the Samba and the Two-Step are completely separate and unique pages, the uninformed could easily assume they are all dancing and thus state they are the same thing. 3)The term Prepper has been clarified as a legitimate term through multiple television shows, as a stand-alone interest group apart from survivalism and through multiple newspaper articles. The common assumption even with this media coverage is that (as has been assumed here) they are the same. 4)On the Survivalism page, the "2000 - Present" section makes no distinction between Preppers and Survivalists, as it should. Just as Preppers are not Survivalists, Survivalists are not Preppers and the page on Survivalism has been genericized to include Prepper practices of being involved with CERT, Government disaster response (FEMA), and being community focused. In the attempt to merge the two together you have created a page that justifies neither. 5)Just as those who know the Samba often also know the Two-Step, Preppers & Survivalists often cross boundaries between them, likely the cause of confusion here.

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groups and individuals whose mindsets are rather irrational; the same could be said of any broad categorization ("there is no cause so right you can't find a fool following it"). In my experience the majority of "survivalists" (which I define as persons concerned with their ability to survive and thrive after a disaster of whatever sort, who take proactive measures to prepare) are largely rational in their concerns. It is indisputable that disasters both natural and man-made do indeed occur (Katrina, Hugo, 9/11 and Three-Mile Island for examples), and even a cursory examination of disaster aftermaths displays the fragility of much of our modern infrastructure. Nor does it take a great deal of research to determine that people who were well-prepared (not just materially, but also mindset and skills) fared FAR better than those who were not. I have met survivalists who are British, Swedish, Australian, Canadian, Phillipino and "other"...and the underlying theme has always been concern about providing for and protecting their families in times of crisis: a very rational mindset indeed. -Goshin, Jan1 2006

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Earth for about 80 trips around the sun, and that is just the twinkling of an eye versus eternity. Where we end up after this brief life is far, far more important in the grand scheme of things. We will spend eternity either in heaven or in hell. But how we spend our +/-80 year life on Earth is up to us. (And the most important thing that we do in the is life is make ourselves right with God, though his Grace, to accepting eternal life in heaven. But stepping back to this temporal world: The Bible makes it very clear that we are to be good stewards of the blessings that God provides us. I therefore feel strongly convicted to not just share the gospel of Christ, but also to physically prepare for my own family, and store extra to dispense as charity. The bottom line: I can’t continue to share the gospel if I starve to the point of achieving room temperature!

3743:“Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? When wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man. A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a forward mouth. He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; Forwardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.” Prov. 6:6-15 (KJV) 737:

Planning & Preparation, Personal Experiences, Self-Sufficient Living or Disasters in Current Events forums do they mention zombies. Simply because they use zombies as a way to reach those who would normally be put off by such attitudes as yours, you attack them as being some lame larp group or whatever. I honestly dont know WHAT you think they are. I can't think of anything they COULD be besides an organization spanning the globe who thinks young folks of every political persusion should get involved in their own well being and not have to rely on the govt to take care of them if something goes wrong. Btw, it isn't MY organiztion. I simply know a good bit about them and respect what they do for people.

3736:“And the seven years of plenteousness, that was in the land of Egypt, were ended.And the seven years of dearth began to come, according as Joseph had said: and the dearth was in all lands; but in all the land of Egypt there was bread. And when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread: and Pharaoh said unto all the Egyptians, Go unto Joseph; what he saith to you, do.And the famine was over all the face of the earth: And Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt.And all countries came into Egypt to Joseph for to buy ; because that the famine was sore in all lands.” Gen. 41:53-57 (KJV) 1534:

cited more often that other contemporary survivalist writers. Well, is that any wonder? He has the blog with the biggest circulation (by far), he has two very popular books, (one fiction, and one non-fiction that have been in Amazon's Top Ten list in the past year. He is also quoted more by the mainstream media than all of the other survivalist blogger, combined. Yeah, I'm a fan of his work, but does that somehow detract from the fact that he is influential, and that he espouses his own particular flavor of Survivalism? (FWIW, I think the "comma" affectation in his name is buffoonery.)

3058:, both "It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given" and "In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant." criteria for removal have been met. As there was no ongoing discussion (as I noted in my edit summary), I could have removed the tag without a word. But instead, I took the exceedingly polite action of attempting to start a discussion. Seeing no response, not even from the OP (you), meant that the tag was not only unnecessary, but that it could not be allowed to remain up. 1430:

primary author that had his work deleted--I was. As best as I can tell, it was ONE spammy commercial link to an insignificant web forum that prompted your edits in the first place. In this case, GraemeL is correct vis-a-vis the Wiki policy. Verifiable print media sources should take precedence. If you think that there is a noteworthy web forum that deserves mention, then go find a newspaper or magazine article that cites it. Many of the larger Survivalist and Peak Oil web sites and forums are frequently mentioned in print. Cite those!

124:-- It is primarily a North American movement. However, although the middle east exhibit some form of protective measures, it is largely a militant movement. The line is blurry, the Japanese build buildings which can survive earthquakes and there are some mild security measure ever since the underground subway toxic bombings. Whether or not this is considered a survivalist measure or an adaptive one it is hard to verify. I would suspect America would be more akin to survivalism due to intense paranoia over years and decades of isolationism 1201:

looks as though I am singling out your site, but I'm not. I simply have not taken the time to go through the referenes. If one of my edits were to have "cleanup" as the summary, and I left a bunch of spam in the EL but removed one, then yes, that would be an NPOV issue. You're grasping for a reason to keep your spam on the page...give it up. Look at my edit history and talk page archives...it will be obvious to you that I am a tireless defender against spam around here, and you're hardly someone to whom I will give in.

2038:, bear in mind that essentially everything you claim that is sourced to your inside knowledge is off limits here. So, please cite your reliable sources for your statements, and please avoid discussing your personal opinions about survivalism here. This is not because I don't respect your personal ideas and opinions, but it is rather because there are better forums elsewhere. Let's talk specifics about the article based on a discussion of what we are reading in reliable sourcing. 31: 241:

non-militia survivalist individuals) is that many of them are white, who may not be white supremacist but are at least racist or "xenophobic" towards other ethnicities and nationalities (post-9/11 America and the anti-Islam movement obviously sparked a rise in American survivalism, given all the purchases of "emergency supplies"). As the stereotype goes, many of them anticipate a race war, hence the widespread sales of the

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article. In case you didn't know about a particular guideline, note the many links to guidelines I've referenced throughout my above comment. As for the length, depth, and 'forensic dissection', you accused me of "no real attempt to discuss", so I was just covering my bases. I don't see any "warning that they were wrong to even bring it up"; I'd appreciate if you could point out what text gave you that impression.

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good source to describe the beliefs/outlooks and practices, the latter for neutrality and an "outsiders" view. Should it be necessary, I can review the relevant texts at some point. To be candid, as I am not on board with the rewrite idea, I'm not all that inclined to do so. However, if you would like a bibliography, I can put something together to assist you or whomever would value the resource.

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words to understand the difference. Prepper - Prepare... and Survivalist - Survival. Prepping is synonymous with preparing meaning to get prepared prior to an event. Survivalism is more about the skill set needed to survive an event. A prepper is someone who partakes in preparedness more so than survivalism, where a survivalist is more into hardcore survival gear, supplies and strategies.

3733:“And in the seven plenteous years the earth brought forth by handfuls. And he gathered up all the food of the seven years, which were in the land of Egypt, and laid up the food in the cities: the food of the field, which round about every city, laid he up in the same.And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for without number.” Gen. 41:47-49 (KJV) 980: 2825:

bug in rather than bug out during a disaster. Rather than a merge, I would suggest doing more research on the movement and culture and add more information including information on the differences between survivalists and preppers including as well as information about why certain people identify themselves as preppers rather than survivalists and vice versa.

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zombie outbreaks in remote regions of Egypt, possibly due to an as yet undiscovered pathogenic virus in the drinking water which caused an outbreak of violence. The specific case escapes me but there is a scientific paper which examined the remains of finger nails and scratchings in the wall which could have only been caused by humans.

2141:(outdent) I object to a biased form of inclusion or removal based simply on what makes survivalists look silly versus what makes them look good. Explain what you are reading that describes what criteria you are using. I absence of that disclosure, it appears that your main criteria is wanting for survivalists to not look silly. 1185:) and that he gets the point that removing my two edits is not very NPOV from what he is saying about my edits or what this user is doing to remove my edits. The real issues with this page have been overlooked going after personal issues that are not NPOV and it does not take much to look over the issues I presented and see that. 663:

area. They are an orginization that has members in many countries around the world and in their home city of St. Louis they draw more people to blood drives for the Red Cross than any other org. They have raised craploads of money for disaster relief and sent volunteers for releif efforts. How is any of this considered fictional?

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which actually exist. If it where the case that Knowledge only accepted empirical data then I assure you that half of the literature of quantum physics, mysticism and religion would dissappear over night with such materialistic perceptual bias... However wikipedia is impersonal and should not curry favour subjective idealogies.

2570:

that Prammers are only interested in walling themselves up and declaring their own independant country. Of course, this is in the USA, and does not accurately reflect the ideas of other countries. With this in mind, the entire page is biast in that it only focuses on the USA without much consideration for other countries.

1986:

community. Having at least one would be reason for consideration, though hitting two or three would be better. Per the project policy, there would have to be reliable sources to document any of them. Those are just some that come to mind and I would invite and encourage some other contributors to add some others.

3539:, which "uses the metaphor of a "Zombie Apocalypse" for any natural or man-made disaster (hurricane, terrorism, earthquake, etc.)". Given all this, I could support listings for "Zombie" and "Zombie apocalypse" which explain that both have a different meaning to most survivalists than the most common, literal one. 1657:

philosophers and psychopharmacologists who have devoted entire papers devoted to the potential of manipulating consciousness. One cannot rule out the possiblity that a future government would look towards either technological, psychological or biological means of mind control. There is also documented cases of

2888:

without going overboard. You've probably already noticed that the "Preppers" article was turned into a redirect to this page about a week ago without any transfer of information. Having read both articles and the above discussion, I agree that "Prepper" would do well as a sub-topic here. That is, if there is a

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Bruce Clayton and James Rawles) should make the WP article better rounded. But we have to worry about about fair balance, just because the movement had more news coverage in one era, then in another. Just in NUMBERS, there are more survivalists now, than ever before. The thing has just morphed a bit.

3739:

The preceding is a good example that illustrates the need for food storage. As I write this in 2008, a growing portion of the world is already experiencing famine. You should recognize that famine could just a well come to stalk America, Europe, the British Isles, and Australia. (The regions with the

3391:

Survivalism is essentially unrelated to civil defence. It is a (largely American) cultural phenomenon - seen ironically mostly since the end of the Cold War. I suggest that official and private civil defence precautions should be moved to the article on civil defence, and this article limited to the

3193:

So a reader, with no interest in the subject, who notices that an article has issues, must know many of Knowledge's rules and regulations, exact Knowledge terms and must be subject to having their complaint about the article dissected forensically and various policies waved at them, then subjected to

3065:

implement some of the changes you feel are necessary ("marking an article as having an NPOV dispute is a temporary measure, and should be followed up by actual contributions to the article"). If you can't be bothered to do that (and you shouldn't expect someone else to do it for you), and there isn't

2935:

This merge was done over the objections of the only person in this talk page who actually provided any actual information other than assumption or belief in the mainstream conclusions - which simply further justifies distinguishing between the two. Unless the dissenters can actually offer legitimate

2180:

requires us to write an article from a viewpoint of a neutral observer. The heavy reliance on 'insider' sources skews the POV of the article to an 'insider' POV. To help fix this problem we should identify the best available material on this topic written from the point of view of a neutral outside

1889:

happened in human history. The dead mysteriously rising from the grave and feasting on the brains of the living has not, nor is there an indication that it is even remotely biologically possible. Either way, the source provided by the OP above is simply not reliable and I think we can agree on that.

1801:

This zombie stuff is all fantasy from late night horror movie buffs . And this talk of drug-induced zombie activity is ludicrous. Who considers that a genuine survivalist secnario? This gibberish makes real survivalists look bad. It sure don't belong in a serious article on survivalism. Mel Tappan

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3. There have been documented cases of zombie outbreaks and zombie-induction techniques...ranging from Zombies and Voodoo, torture techniques. There is also documented cases of hypnotic zombie like states either drug-induced or through hypnotism. There also been ancient documented cases of 'possible'

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It relates to groups of people not one persons views on a subject. Those same refs have been there for years posted by many people not one person. Survivalism and what it has become is made up of groups that stay under the news media like the groups in the refs that relate to groups what that section

1047:

I have made more contributions to WP then you will ever know and I have read the EL guidelines more times then I care to admit and know them by haert. From what I have seen from your edits regarding these two ELs deals with something more of a personal nature then subject matter. If you have problems

954:

You have made no contributions to WP except adding your ELs. Had you bothered to read the EL guidelines, you would see that we do not link to blogs. And it does not matter how many products a site sells. It is meant to sell a product, which makes it spam. Any strictly positive value for the number of

641:

This is deflecting the discussion away from the original point: Survivalism is rooted in rational thought. To mix something that could never happen (reanimation of dead people and animals) into a discussion of real world threats does survivalism a huge dis-service and discredits the entire movement.

563:

I am dismayed to see references to "Zombie Apocalypse" repeatedly creeping in to this article. Survivalism is rooted in rational thought. To mix something that could never happen (reanimation of dead people and animals) into a discussion of real world threats does survivalism a huge dis-service and

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One of the many names of God is Jehovah Jireh, which means God Who Provides. As a Christian, I believe that God will provide for his covenant people. I believe that one of the many gifts that the God has provided is a conviction, by the Holy Spirit, to be well prepared. I realize that we are only on

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When did this term become commonplace for survivalists? The article suggests the late 1990s, though thinking back on Y2K, the term prepper wasn't used anywhere near as much as it is today. While the term may have existed much earlier, as far a pop cultural phrase, it seems to have really sprung up

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I can only gather that you're hoping for more "negative about the subject". After a careful reading, I have to agree that there is little negative in the article, and some parts that are unnecessarily positive. I've started a "controversy" section, as it does seem that the anti-survivalism viewpoint

2887:

Hello! This was a very interesting and enjoyable article to work on. I hope I did more good than harm with my copy edits. On the whole, it was well-written and well-sourced; there were just a few instances of un-attributed claims and vague assertions (e.g. "Some people think...")—I tried to tag them

2691:

Hi, I am currently writing a book which redefines survivalism as a strict philosophy, as opposed to the more active hypothetical 'prepper' survivalism. As I had noticed this article comes under philosophy, but remains rather unphilosophical, what are the chances of getting a survivalist (philosophy)

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does not count as unbiast as it is too small for the gloabal context. I'm not sure that providing citations from a variety of websites would benefit this article as a whole, and so my recommendation is that either the entire article be flagged for the inaccurate data regarding survivalism as a whole

2110:

Back to the topic at hand, I am going to remove the unsourced or poorly sourced entries regarding zombies, aliens and robots. If this section gets rewritten or removed at a later time, so be it. If anyone disagrees, I would invite them to come up with a reliable source indicating that preppers are

1836:

As of the current state of human development, advanced AI doesn't exist. Also, there is no scientific evidence that extraterrestrial life exists, let alone is a threat to human civilization. Finally, and most importantly, I don't see any evidence that preparing for either is a common belief in the

1627:

While the likelihood of such scenarios occuring have been debated. A number of serious and semi-serious literature and communities have emerged dealing with esotoric concepts such as how to survive and defend yourself from a zombie outbreak. Although this branch of survivalism is criticised as being

626:

I am a bit curious here. Are we talking about Zombie Squad? They are a non-profit .org, internationaly recognized for preparing people for disasters using zombies as a metaphor. They do this because while a tornado may be immediately important to someone in the midwest, a hurricane is more important

469:

My question is simply why? What about the survivalist movement concerned you or motivated to use them as an antagonist of that magnitude? I understand that the militia idea used in the film was pretty non-existent in 1985, but I am curious as to your reasons for making this novel an anti-survivalist

3166:

As an additional note: The above may itself look like an NPOV dispute, but it's not (at least, not yet). The page may very well be biased, but so far, only one editor has spoken up, they have proposed no real changes, and nobody's agreed or disagreed with them, so there could not possibly be a NPOV

2824:

But even that I still disagree with, as the Prepper movement is a completely different movement made up of different groups of people than those who are involved with the survivalist movements. In the prepper movement you will find more urban and suburban people. People who prefer to find ways to

2160:

Your conjecture as to bias is largely wrong in my case, though I concur with the notion that these entries are pretty absurd. Nonetheless, your theory is immaterial with respect to the additions in question. Properly sourced content is a project-wide rule and, as such, the aforementioned sections

1849:

One can also say that for most if not all of the other "Survivalist scenarios and outlooks" mentioned in that section. "Gray goo", "Left Behind", and at least a dozen other scenarios mentioned are just as tenuous as this risk of zombie invasion. How are you guys rationalizing for including of one

1678:

You are welcome to disagree, but seeing as survivalism is part theoretical and part practical as it deals with future scenarios - noone cannot arrogantly claim with certaintity to know the future. It is not a soapbox to debate the authenticity of scenarios but rather document the current literature

1656:

One cannot rule out future possibilities of otherwise zombie or esotoric encounters. How one can readily dismiss the possibility whilst ignoring hundreds and thousands of papers dealing with the issues of consciousness from neuropsychology,quantum physicists, transpersonal and conciousness studies,

1289:

Yes a survivalist terminology section would be apropos. There are only about 10 or 12 terms & acronyms that are both notable and fairly unique to the Survivalist lexicon. There is a glossary at the SurvivalBlog site, and IIRC, there is also a glossary at the Alpha Rubicon web site. I presume

1176:

I am very well aware what can and can't be added and I will make that very clear for the other users who read this. Despite some of these sites selling products or advertising in some form or another they belong on the page because they offer info that makes this page worth reading and provides Ref

697:

Unfortunately, you can take that as a resounding NO, since zombies are fictional, and they don't belong listed along real world threats/scenarios. Again, please limit mention of "ZS" to wiki pages related to fictional topics. REAL survivalist topics of concern relate to the *real* world (such as:

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to know "many of Knowledge's rules and regulations", but discussions are much more productive when you do. Most of what I quoted is from the 'instructions' for the template you used, and I believe it is entirely reasonable to expect you know what a template means before placing it at the top of an

2828:

Keywords to think about Preppers:....Preparedness, prepare, prep, get ready, store up, prior, short term disasters, hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes Keywords to think about Survivalists:....Survive, Survival, Survival skills, TEOTAWKI, SHTF, Societal Collapse, Pandemics, 2012, Economic collapse.

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I can give quotes with page numbers from any of these articles, if you need them. They are now kinda dated, but they show the journalistical view of the survivalist movement at the time. I think that those from the 1980's (about Mel Tappan and Howard j.Ruff) , along with the later quotes (about

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book would help. There were also quite a bunch of articles in mags and newspapers done in the late 1970's and early part of the 1980's about Mel Tappan, and the peopel that followed him to Oregon. My dad was a big Mel Tappan fan--he was the one that turned me on to his books--and I think my dad

1533:

I've restored section that was mangled, no doubt in good faith, by an an editor identified only by an IP address. He seemed to think that Rawles claimed key tenets of survivalism as his own. Rawles has never made any such claims, nor have I, in writing about him. He also mentioned that Rawles is

465:

Tomcat wrote: I just started reading your novel, The Postman last night, and so far I have found it much more enjoyable than the film. One thing I was most surprised about in your book was that the Holnists were survivalists, instead of a militia as in the movie. After reading an article about the

327:

I think it is one thing to prudently prepare for a disaster, such as a hurricane, or to conservatively place ones assets so as to be immune from a financial panic. It is quite another to stockpile two years worth of navy beans and then sit on top of them with an arsenal of weapons hoping upon hope

240:

The article states that "An extreme and marginal fringe of survivalism has racist or white supremacist beliefs." The statement "marginal" needs to be qualified by concrete statistics. Otherwise I'm going to add a "citation needed" tag. I say this because the stereotype of survivalist militias (and

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historically, people all over the world HAD to be what could be considered survivalists. obviously, people had to know how to hunt, fish, and trap, and know how to be prepared for bad weather, etc. if they didn't know how to do these things, they would die, plain and simple. however, they wouldn't

3801:

Should "pandemic societal disruption" be a survivalist reason category? This is a situation that arises out of fear of other things on the list (virus outbreak, chemical release, nuclear contamination), and people in essential supply roles refusing to report to work and doing their job, with then

3491:

of survivalists expect a "Zombie apocalypse", or is it just a few, who receive a disproportionate amount of media spotlight because it's easier to laugh at someone prepping for a zombie attack than someone preparing for hurricane, earthquake, terrorist attack, economic downturn, or any other more

2931:

This Merge needs to be undone. 1)The result of the merge is that the Survivalism page does nothing to distinguish Preppers from Survivalism, or even to distinguish it as a subset. 2)Those stating that Prepper is slang, a neologism or the same as Survivalism do not have the intimate knowledge to

2807:

I have to disagree with a merge. The two often overlap but are not the same thing. Many survivalists may consider themselves as preppers, but most preppers do not consider themselves survivalists. Storing extra food or preparing for a disaster does not make you a survivalist. Look at the root

2569:

While I appreciate your perception of the section on Perceived Extremism, I don't see anything with faulty with the information provided. Prammers (Paramilitary Survivalists) are the kind of people who feel that Preppers (Preparation Survivalists) don't know jack, whereas Preppers feel, at times,

2156:

The section regarding "gray goo" was simply unsourced. The ones regarding aliens/AI and zombies were improperly sourced (Internet forums, etc.). If anyone would like them returned, please feel free to do so with an appropriate source. Also, if there is other content you believe could be better

2020:

At the present, I don't agree that we need a rewrite, but I will leave that to the other contributors. To answer your question, I can think of a number of print resources either written by survivalists/preppers/self-sufficiency advocates or, to a lesser extent, about said. The former would be a

2002:

Looking at the article in overview, there seems quite a bit which synthesizes from sourcing of marginal reliability and sourcing which is not third party. Hopefully we can find some solidly reliable independent sourcing, and then use that as a model for the tone and structure of a rewrite of the

1361:

This issue should of been addressed on the Discussion page for survivalism before the other user or yourself made a mass edits like this and you should respect that as well as I do. And that were it needs to be addressed over a number of days so all the users can have some imput rather then a few

1200:

A site can be a reference even if it sells things, as long as it is reliable. I am not "singling out" your edits...they were the only edits to the EL section. You brought them up in the talk page, I responded, and another editor agreed with me. Another editor had already removed them outright. It

736:

I'm starting to wonder what your real problem is with ZS. You simply refuse to acknowledge that they do real world good. That they raise tens of thousands of dollars for real world disatser victims. That they send members to help in rescue operations around the world. Nowhere in their Contingency

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at all the gun shows of the time that many survivalists attended. Ok, like I said this is a stereotype, but it's the most common portrayal of survivalists that I've seen in texts, media, pop culture, etc. Therefore, if the article is going to contradict this and say that such a population is only

3298:

Hey everyone. What do you think about panic sex? I mean, I've heard the term used as a joke, but does it really belong in the "survivalist terminology" section? I'd be more open to it if we could find a reliable source (a book or scholarly article) that discusses it in a survivalist context. The

3009:

Please don't remove maintenance tags just because you don't agree with them. This article reads, especially in the opening paragraphs, as a how-to, pro-survivalism guide. There is little or no discussion of the downsides of this type of hysterical paranoia on society as a whole; nothing negative

2106:

OK. Now we are more on the same page (no pun intended). My point is simply that there is a myriad of source regarding survivalism (pro, con, and neutral). I do not have access to the texts right at this second, but I can look up some titles later if it would be of some value. I will see if my

1429:

This is addressed to Mr. unsigned "24.205.217.245": I have to agree with GraemeL on this. His point is valid. And, FWIW, it was I that created most of the original links (that were deleted by GraemeL), from my web research more than ayear ago. So please don't get indignant. YOU were not the

662:

With your reply I will consider that a yes, you are speaking of ZS and must say, they are anything but fictional. They are a real orginization reaching out to people who would otherwise be put off to the notion that maybe they should look into how they would survive any sort of disaster in their

180:

Why is reference to a group like the Zombie Squad deleted? It is a legitimate not for profit that covers much of the same type of material as the Alpha Rubicon without seeming like they are trying to overthrow the government. I know the premise of zombies confuses some but they are getting young

150:

I knew a couple of avowed survivalists in Britain back in the Cold War days (one used to write magazine articles on the subject, I forget his name), but I'd guess one reason why there weren't many in Britain at that time was simply because there wasn't really anywhere to hide from a nuclear war.

134:

Possibly I misconstrue Raddicks intended meaning, but the assertion that survivalism is more "American" because of intense paranoia and years of isolationism makes the whole mindset appear irrational. If that impression was intended, then I'd have to dispute it. Certainly there are survivalist

1899:

common theme within the survivalist/prepper community. Particularly so with some within the Restorationist sects (SDAs, Mormons), some Protestant sects (various flavors of Evangelical and Charismatic) as well as other religious groups. We may agree or disagree with their theological school of

1888:

No disagreement about there being an element of the hypothetical and it may indeed be difficult to always draw a fine line. However, economic collapse, floods, fires, hurricanes, civil unrest, plagues, famine, wars, insurrections, and good ol' fashioned "people being lost in the woods" have all

1682:

Now if someone removes the section again without considering the above considerations I will take the issue further. I am an academic with a scientific background who has explored aspects relating to consciousness and my time is fairly limited. I do not have a vested interest other then to make

1537:

To take the section that I wrote on Rawlesian philosophy and re-attribute that to ALL of "Survivalism" is absurd. Rawles has views that are distinct from mainstream survivalists,most notably his emphasis on charity, which he calls "an imperative." Most survivalists could care less about their

3706:

I think anyone that is familiar with the prepper and the very distinct survivalist cultures would agree they are not the same thing -- and in an encyclopedia they should have their own seperate entries so as not to confuse the public. I am new here- How do we go about splitting them following

488:

I will append a general update below, but as for the survivalist issue, I don't think you may be recalling very well the NASTY emotional thread that underlay a lot of that movement, in the 80s. The tone was very much the way I protrayed it, leading eventually to the rationalizations of Timothy

361:

I think that would open up the Wiki to flame wars and revert wars. Since survivalism is almost a religion to some people, that would be akin to opening up the wiki page on Catholicism to "humorous interpretations" such as the movie The Life of Brian. (Which earned a blasphemy rating from the

1985:

A few criteria come to mind is a.) Real disasters or scenarios that humanity has had to grapple with or b.) A common disaster with which a society or government has made official preparations to address or c.) A scenario or belief system that is very widespread within the survival/prepper

1037:

It is not hard to tell that the site is not meant to promote a product, if you take a look at history of the site (there are ways to what a site over time and see what it looked like months sometimes year back) The site had no products for a long time. This site has too much useful info about

1832:

Well stated Bobbie. While we are on the topic, I have been very tempted to remove the "Aliens and Artificial Intelligence" entry as well. For one, the source provided has no mention at all of "artificial intelligence," so that is really unsourced. Also, it references a single book, not "a

1128:

that it should not have a link extrenal links since it has a ref already. Why would you say this about the link I added and remove my edits when there are the same problems on ref section that you choose to plainly do nothin about when they are in plain sight for everyone to see. """"YOU Do

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I concur! Your logic is astounding, to wit: "Survivalists attend gun shows. The book The Turner Diaries is sold at guns shows. Ipso facto, survivalists are racists." Please wake up to the reality of survivalism and survivalists, most of whom are NOT racists! Please don't confuse pop

2305:

We should pattern the main sub-topics based on the sub-topics as covered by neutral reliable sourcing. I oppose the process where self interested editors write an article the way they imagine it should be, and then do google searches attempting to back it up. That is improper synthesis.

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such as barricading houses with stacks of trolleys, removal of stairs, sterilisation of food and water supplies, raiding tactics just to name a few. Yes, the plausability of the scenario may not be as strong as the rest of the scenarios, but to remove the section and dismiss it out of hand

340:

I've been reading SurvivalBlog (the most popular survivalist blog) daily since its inception in 2005, and I haven't seen ANY letters or articles from anyone that professes to hope or wish for a collapse. If anything, survivalists realize just how "nasty, brurtish, and short" life would be,

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page. The recent news headlines (economic and flu pandemic, for example), have borne out some key survivalist predictions. But reanimation of necrotic tissue and dead people walking around and hunting the living won't be happening anytime soon. Let's not mix fiction with reality, folks!

1357:

Those refs have 100,000's of messages from the people from those areas as groups of people and is not limited to a news story on 2 or three selected people. I find 100,000 people a more reliable source then singled out story on maybe two people out a mass that expands worldwide.

246:"marginal" among survivalists, the idea of this being "marginal" must be backed up with statistics. If it is not, I'm going to add a "citation needed" tag, which will inevitably progess to a deletion of the words "and marginal" if no citation is added. Simply put, "marginal" is a 120:

Do they exist in any other affluent countries? Obviously in third and fourth world countries, some of the preoccupations of survivalists are very real parts of life, but I was wondering in particular if there are survivalist movements in Europe, Australia, New Zealand or Japan?

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causes widespread damage and disruption for everyone who depends on those services. For example, electric power and vehicle fuel supply networks could fail or become intermittent and inconstant if the transport employees decided their health was not worth the risk of exposure.

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THIS LINK IS DEAD AND DOES NOT WORK AND WILL FREEZE YOUR COMPUTER MESSAGE THAT COMES UP "THIS FILE IS DAMAGED AND COULD NOT BE REPAIRED" WOULD ALSO LEAD TO NPOV ISSUES WITH YOUR EDITS SINCE YOU DID NOT REMOVE THIS REF LINK that is harmful to WP users over links that work!!!!!

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reasonable scenario? Further confusing matters is that the term "zombie" seems to be used by some preppers and survivalists to refer simply to the unprepared: "“Zombies are the brainless ones who feed on the labor of others, the savings of others, the preparations of others”

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Mexico City--TODAY and financial meltdown--TODAY, and truly possible TOMORROWS), not impossibilities. There are plenty of other wiki pages to post mention of your organization. But not here. By doing so, you make survivalists look like the fringe, which we are not. Sorry.

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Therefore. I have reinstated the section. I have higlighted that there is some controversy regarding such scenarios so as to maintain NPOV. However, if you were to read the literature such as Max Brookes, you would find that there is a rational treatise on the scenario -:

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This is NOT to say that survival training and preparedness are twisted, in themselves! I comsider myself to be adefinite member of that side of it, a real boy scout... which is why I was able to separate the two meanings of "militia". Two meanings that are real opposites.

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Finally, it may prove difficult narrowing resources. The term "survialism" and "survivalist" has been used, applied, and arguably misapplied over the decades. Caution should be taken with this in mind as POV material abounds within and without the prepper community.

3599:, I'm not attached enough to it to keep fighting the removals (I only know about them from my investigations, above); I do still think they're the perfect illustration of Zombie Apocalypse as a metaphor for other survivalist scenarios and may readd it in the future. 3010:

about the subject is being allowed to appear; the first paragraphs are unreferenced and biased in favour of survivalism as a way of life... I could go on. This is not a very good article, and a good place to start would be someone with knowledge fixing the POV tone.

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The original challenges to this section was that a certain editor considered zombie survivalism as being 'irrational' and that it detracted from the purpose of this article. However, irrespective of this claim I would like to draw attention to the following points.

2715:) has a section on "Rawlesian Survivalist Philosophy" in his bestselling book "How To Survive The End of the World As We Know it". But I'm not sure the "PHILOSOPHY" deserves a separate article. Expanding the existing WP page a bit is probably all that is needed. 2554:

I added this template because this section does not site any sources and seems negatively bent on "right wing" groups. I would have deleted the section all together, but I feel the information adds to the article. It should either be revised or citations added.

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Having said all that, I am and have been a little torn about the utility of the section in general. On one hand, it does layout some common scenarios or reasons that motivate preparedness. On the other it invites a dumping ground for contributor's pet theories.

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post-TEOTWAWKi, so they dread it. The fact that someone prepares for different circumstanes doesn't ipso facto mean that they WANT them to happen--not any more than someone who buys car insurance "hopes" to be in a car wreck. Trasel - 9 July 2007, 7:48 PM EST

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Is Alpha Rubicon advocating overthrowing the Government? I thought many of their members were government employees. I know some of their material is used in Government training classes. Might wanna be careful about throwing around that kind of accusation.

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The current 'Further reading' section consists of external links to classic texts. Any thoughts on perhaps moving this to an External links section and adding a short 'Further reading' section devoted to books and, perhaps, periodical articles on the

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I fail to see how coming up with a bibliography of relevant texts is somehow original resource. As matter of fact, I can think of at least two books written by investigative journalists (one published in the 80s, on in the 2000s) that are critical of

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America is huge and large parts of the country would be barely affected, but few places in Britain would be more than a couple of dozen miles from a target and almost everywhere would be down-wind of one. The same probably applies to most of Europe.

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on a global scale, OR that the flag on this part of the article be removed as no citation can be provided at this time, without citing various survivalism forums. An example of Prammer vs Prepper, please accept this snapshot in a survivalist forum:

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While neutrality is our goal, we can't overlook the statements, writings, etc. of those within the movement, provided that they are properly contextualized. Any other sociological topic quotes from sources within the subculture and this one is no

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unrealistic, philosophers such as David Chalmers and other opponent of classical materialism, claim that it is logically possible for these scenarios to occur - such as the existence of zombies if specific conditions were met for their conception.

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I think the term Mutual Assistance Group (MAG) might be a valuable addition to the terminology section as it is used in the survivalist/prepper culture. I am still looking for a good source, so if anyone finds one before me, please be my guest.

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to someone on the east coast. It is impossible to predict what disaster will fall on someone so it falls to a fictional threat that everyone can relate to. To not include an .org that has thousands of members from around the globe is ridiculous.

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Survivalist groups and forums--both formal and informal--are popular worldwide, most visibly in Australia, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany (often organized under the guise of "adventuresport" clubs), New Zealand, Sweden, and the United States

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warning that they were wrong to even bring it up? And then senior people appear on the media wondering why the number of contributors and the number of new editors has declined while the site has grown? I feel so very very welcomed. Thank you.

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I noticed that the history section said that historically the LDS suggested one year, but that they now recommend 3 months. In the religion section, it says that the LDS used to suggest 7 years, and now mandates 1 year. Which one is correct?

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hypothetical apocalypse and not another? Face it, survivalism includes an aspect of the unknown risk. Zombies invasion is peculiar, but why is it any more or less peculiar that most of the other risks outlined presently in that section?

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I am not sure why it redirects either. There doesn't appear to be a Wiki article on the film in question. If there is, and I overlooked it, please post the link. We can at least add a redirect template at the top of the article to avoid

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observer. Any help putting together this bibliography would be appreciated. As said above, I would like to begin by carefully reading this neutral material to establish a baseline for the structure and tone of a future article rewrite.

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The fact that someone operates not for profit and has ",org" at the end of their URL has no bearing, since you could make the same argument for the Church of Satan being included in a wiki page on Mainstream Religions. Leave the zombie

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I still disagree. If it must be merged it would belong under preparedness, not survivalism. A poll of people who consider themselves as preppers would show that the vast majority of them lean more towards preparedness than survivalism.

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was made for. All have been major factors of what survivalism is today otherwise the news media would of had us all portraited as crazy nuts because we are prepaired for things that may come in the future to look out for our families.

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It might not be a bad idea to come up with a short lists of topics that we'd like to address (types of preps, religious and sociological issues, current trends, perceived extremism, etc.) and from there a better bibliography could be

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I've seen it time and again on the various survival forums and blogs, but I am having a hard time with locating a reliable source. As such, I am leaving it out for the moment. If someone should have one, it would be of some value.

3094:- This is serious. If an editor(s) is disallowing otherwise valid contributions in order to slant the POV of the article, please say so explicitly so this can be dealt with (Although, I see no such behavior in recent edit history) 3780:

To follow up, I submit that Luke 12:22-31 is an admonition about worrying, rather than about food storage. Do other scholarly Christian Wikipedians concur? If so, then the recent edit should be modified to show better balance.

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instead of the proper formatting for web citations. I've started the process of cleaning these up and am going section by section. I just thought I would mention it in case anyone would like to lend a hand with the clean up.

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Catholic church.) Although some survivalists poke fun at themselves (I have read that some enjoyed the Burt Gummer character in the movie Tremors), most would be offended. So my vote is NO. - Trasel 16:23 27 July, 2007 (EST)

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How in the world can such an entry exist? Where are the ecyclopedia-aspects of such a ridicolous entry? This whole wiki thing is getting out of control, seriously, is there someone who really think that is something worthy an

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I've identified three additional statements that need support (see flags), in an attempt to reduce the amount of conjecture and/or opinion in this section. Please add citations if you can locate some that specifically mention

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that the basic terms, should anyone care to take a stab at drafting a new section might include: Ballistic Wampum, BOB, BOL, Golden Horde, G.O.O.D. SHTF, WTSHTF, TEOTWAWKI Polly, and Doomer. Other suggestions? Thanks,

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Did anyone notice that there was a palpable sense of dissapointment among many of the survivalists when Y2K failed to bring society to its knees? In fact, Y2K failed to even inconvenience society - it was a non-event.

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1. Noone has ownership of the idealogy of what constitutes survivalism or not. Regardless of how silly the concept may sound to some individuals, wikipedia is not a soapbox for subjectivist assertions. For instance.

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To the External links section. Both links are well know for survival and Survivalism. Both are pretty good for the subject matter so please look thm over in detail before anyone says they are spam or anything else.

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only sells one product so don't see a spam issue and this site does not have any other links on any Knowledge page so it is not being spammed. Most sites used in the references for this page sell tons of products.

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The merge was justified. Unless Phil801 can come up with a couple of reliable third party sources that CLEARLY AND AUTHORITATIVELY DISTINGUISH the terms survivalist and prepper, then it should be left AS IS.

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Well, I inadvertently added it back in without even looking at the history of the article or talk page, but I tell you what, I have firearms, ammo, food, and water stockpiled specifically in case of zombies.

1749:. I'm refraining from editing further but I'd like to add that there is legitimate empirical research pointing towards the potential existence of a psychological zombie . Other supporting evidence includes 3755:“O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for no want to them that fear him.”Psa 34:10 (KJV) “The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good .” Psalm 34:9-10 (KJV) 384:

I added the following as auto re-directs, assuming they might be search phrases: retreater, retreatist, and reteater. The last was added simply as a likely typo error. -- Jeff Trasel 1739 EST 23 Dec 07.

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In other words, you can't come up with any citations to support your assertion that survivalists are racist, xenophobic, etc, other than your (again, uncited) assertion regarding "widespread sales of the

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historically, native americans indians, eskimos, and aleuts were what could have been considered survivalists, but obviously many of them are now "modernized" like a lot of other people have also become.

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I think you covered some of the more common terms and those would be a good starting point. We'd want to keep such a section fairly trim anyway. There are some terms that are shared in common with the

2060:, to continue to do so borders on a strawman. I do not dispute being involved with preparedness in my private life, but we both know that is not a disqualifier for meaningful, neutral contributions. 1117:

sells tons and tons of stuff would be the bigest spam on the page (LITTLED WITH PRODUCTS FOR SALE EVERY WHERE). WOULD ALSO LEAD TO NPOV ISSUES WITH YOUR EDITS SINCE YOU DID NOT REMOVE THIS REF LINK.

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The three month recommendation appears on the official LDS site related to preparedness. It has varied over the years, but AFAIK, the 7 year figure was a 19th century thing so has long since past.

1687:. Even though I myself believe other scenarios are more plausable, it would be unfair to dismiss other theories based on subjective assumptions on the aeitology, behaviours or definition of what a 1546:

has advocated what could best be called xenophobic hostility. Rawles is an anti-racist, while Saxon IS a racist. If anything, we should add MORE to this section--with, for example, a section on

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As mentioned above, the article presently has multiple instances of citations to sources of marginal reliability and excessive use of sourcing which is not independent of the topic. I think that

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You are free to edit the article as you see fit. Obviously, we would not want to rely on only one source or even a small number of sources. Limiting one self to such would introduce a bias.

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The article has pretty good structure an flow, just as it is. What it needs are some more INDEPENDENT (journalistical) views of the movement. I think a couple of more quotes from that

1554:-- instead of deletigs useful, fully cited material. Please cease and desist with destructive edits. And take the time to READ the books written by Rawles before being so dismissive! 1516:). It appears, however, that this is something that JWR coined and I'm not sure how common it is outside of said blog. If it is so, perhaps it should be added back. If not, then not. 2088:

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Please include the specific sources for your opinions expressed here. What exactly are you reading? Thanks, I would like a chance to read it too. Otherwise,

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Carl you did open this door and and removing my edits further over and over without correcting the same issues with the rest of the Survivalism page will raise some major NPOV issuse.

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And thus, having "proved" to your own satisfaction that survivalists in fact meet the stereotype you cherish, you dispute---with weasely games---any objections to this blackguarding.

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Considering the ridiculous discussion above concerning the undead, I believe I shall take my leave of editing this article for the moment. Good luck with your research SaltyBoatr.

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As stated above, I don't believe we need a complete rewrite, but if you feel that is necessary have at it. Put together some NPOV reliable sources, be bold, and "fill your boots."

1982:

The "make survivalists look bad" seems like a POV criteria and as such should be discarded post-haste. By the same token, an agenda to make them look like loons is equally POV.

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that society will collapse so you can lord it over everyone. There is an anti-social, pathological aspect to many of these people that I think bears mentioning in the article.

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Only in Saxon's writings. I don't know if there's any outside verification for this or not. It's probably a matter of tracking down when and where the term first appeared.

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I always thought that Panic Sex was "real"! Feel free to delete it again if you must but I've seen it discussed freq. in forums such-as LOP, GLP, and others just to name two.

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survivalists look good or look bad. Skipping for now the question of what makes a "real" survivalist, do we agree on the baseline is not about making survivalists look good

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After reading The Postman, I actually contacted David Brin to find out why survivalists were the antagonist of his book, versus some other group. Here's is my email to him:

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2. I refute the claim that zombie scenarios are irrational... There have been documented cases where governments have legitamately explored the potential of mind control.

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I appreciate you telling me this, and judging from your editor username, I can guess that you are a person with inside knowledge of Survivalism. Because of the policy

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as a form of psychological weaponry. There has also been valid research exploring the potential of energy weaponry as a form of psychological weaponry in riot control

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for references, then no discussion is needed prior to removal. The section was nothing but example spam and had no place being in the article. The removal wasn't even

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So let me get this straight you are sayin if a site sells one thing it is spam per your own words. Then your I am wondering why you singled out one site for removal*

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Erm, it'd be nice if this article was a neutral rendition of the facts, rather than a hysterical list of survivalist tropes presented without context. Just saying.

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As to the eschatological scenarios; well, we aren't going to be able to prove or disprove the existence of God(s) in a Wiki talk page. Be that as it may, it is a

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I haven't personally read it, but I am aware of it and it looks to be of interest. It was one of a few books I had in mind with the bibliography referenced above.

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article. Can you point to a few excellent sources which are independent and neutral that I can start reading? An academic book or journal article or something?

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Reverted external links. Because www.survivalblog.com """""11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority""""" This is *

408:

Since more than a week went by without anyone coming to the defense of these unsourced comments, nor was any source/citation added, I went ahead and deleted them.

3247:, and then requesting more discussion) implies active participation in discussion and improvement of the article. I'm willing to help, but I can't do everything. 813:

The External links section for this article has been spammed so heavily in the past, that I don't recommend having one. Oh well, we will just see what happens.

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Survivalism is a largely American phenomenon. Has there been any psychological analysis of the survivalist movement? It is certainly an odd cultural development.

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are the subject of an NPOV dispute" "Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to

1129:

UNDERSTAND THAT THIS HAS MASSIVE NPOV ISSUES WRITTEN ALL OVER IT FOR YOU AND ANY ONE THAT HAS EDIT MY EXTRANAL LINKS AND NOT OVER CHOOSING TO FIX THESE ISSUS"

1493:. In fact, the post in question looks like a block/copy from the Wiki article. We need a reliable source for this variant of SHTF, or it should be removed. 889:

Carl is right. Again, the External links section for this article has been spammed very heavily in the past. Therefore, I don't recommend having one at all.

3761:“But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” 1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) 2161:

were deleted. The burden of proof rests on those who would like this material included and they are always welcome to introduce properly sourced additions.

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discredits the entire movement. The "Zombie" crowd is fixated on a piece of fiction. While it surely deserves its own wiki page, it is NOT survivalism!

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Reteater (a newly created page) redirects to this page, but there is no discussion on the page about what it has to do with Survivalism. Any ideas why?

3687:

Seems like this page has a lot of OS and OR as does much of WP. Why does OR on some pages incite manic opposition and on others no one notices or cares?

3051:...Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort." 1892:

The "gray goo" thing you mentioned is somewhat borderline too. It is currently unsourced, so would either like to see that rectified or removed soon.

393:

I flagged two statements which appear to be unsupported or possibly just conjecture. Can anyone support these with a substantive citation? Thanks.

3595:). While I can't see how an internal link to a Knowledge article (with a reference to the subjects website to verify their stated premise) counts as 1620:

To prevent clutter I have added a new section reinstating the Zombie section as it is relevant to this article. I present the following text.

2056:

I'd also invite you to be very careful with assumptions you make based upon a username alone. You have already mischaracterized my views on

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distinction between the two. It can always be split into its own article in the future if there's enough information to warrant it. Cheers.

1903:

Finally, all this brings up what the core criteria for inclusion would be. It probably wouldn't hurt to have discussion along those lines.

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David Brin wrote: Thanks for your thoughtful and interesting message. It truly is gratifying when people write, and I always try to answer.

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Bobbie Charlton, Can you specifically name specific books? I would like a chance to be reading the same things you are reading. Thanks.

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There is, of course, plenty of holes with the aforementioned. How you define a "survivalist" is obviously one of them as you alluded to.

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I'm not going to wade into discussing this at the moment, but might revisit it later when I have time. That said, the primary source (

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largest SurvivalBlog readership.) It is prudent and Biblically supported to stock up during good times in anticipation of lean times.

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survival/prepper community. I'm sure someone, somewhere plans for it, but that doesn't mean it is part and parcel with the subculture.

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how it might be improved. Only you can see whatever it is you see that's wrong with the article. In addition, I requested a show of

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Ok, would this reference be more reliable? (There is a dedicated survivalist forum on there plus a myriad of survivalist articles).

2415:. The rest of what I talking about were magazine and newspaper articles. Here's the titles of the ones in my dad's clipping file: 1038:

survival and survivalism in their articles. Linking to each one would create too many links on a Knowledge page. not restricted per

2811:

In short, a Prepper is someone who is involved with Preparedness while A Survivalist is someone who is involved with Survivalism

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despite the site having a review of the movie it is spam because it sells way too many items. per your own words one is too many.

773:, its one of the largest survival forums on the internet with over 1,093,836 post and 24,938 members. The forum even has its own 3669: 3648:

Shouldn't something be said about who is profiting from survivalism? In the US there seems to be a lot operators in this sector.

3493: 3435: 2594: 2220:, published by the University of Chicago Press seems to be one excellent third party source on this topic. Have you read it? 454: 3786: 3770: 3727:

An unsigned WP editor recently asserted that there is no Biblical support for food storage. I belive that he is incorrect.

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Indeed, both terms are very common in the Survivalist community. I wonder if a short section on terminology is in order?

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The lessons from scripture are clear: Don’t be lazy and lax. Store up in good times for future lean times. Consider this:

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blog He seems to be considered a recognized authority on survival and survivalism by the editors of this Knowledge page *

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http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1821&dat=19860730&id=ES0tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Dr0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=961,4648505

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http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1821&dat=19860730&id=ES0tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Dr0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=961,4648505

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Pandemic Influenza, Electricity, and the Coal Supply Chain: Addressing Crucial Preparedness Gaps in the United States

3749:“ treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise; but a foolish man spendeth it up.” – Prov. 21:20 (KJV) 2692:

article on the go? Are there enough sources defining a survivalist philosophy to warrant getting it's own article? --

918:

Both the links have relavent info to survivalism as a whole. There is nothin related to spam on either of the sites.

777:, which has over 300 videos as 12,000 subscribers. Or, maybe just create survivalistboards its own wikipedia page? 2959: 2107:

google-fu will turn up some now, but it would probably be better and more accurate to look at the books themselves.

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exist but I cannot claim to know what they look like, just like there are multiple definitions and descriptions of

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It seems to me any mention of Zombie Survival belongs only in the fiction or pop-culture section of the article.

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I have heard the term before but I don't know where. I believe it was in relation to cooperative type groups. -

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It's not the place of an encyclopedia to say they are right or wrong. But this is covered by reliable sources.

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Only few who are scientifically uneducated or insane believe it. Any mention denigrates the prepper movement.

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how people have presented their works on a website take it up it them in their blog or site and keep it off WP

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Preppers is simply a slang term for survivalism. Knowledge should avoid slang, unless there is no alternative.

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Another unsourced statement was added to the description of David Brin's novel "The Postman". Source? Thanks,

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as a fictional concept. One exception we might want to consider for the popular culture section is the film

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Should we also include humorous interpretations of this idealogy, such as Dale Gribble in King of the Hill?

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There is little or no discussion of the downsides of this type of hysterical paranoia on society as a whole

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Agree that we do no want zombie nonsense cluttering up this article. There already is an article about a

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I'm sorry if I somehow offended you, but we're both here to improve the article. Adding the template (

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does not have to be referenced, as it is only a summary of text referenced in the body of the article.

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Needs merged. More coverage would do these topics right. Prepper would be a great sub topic here.--

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The only book that I know of that is just about survivalism (and some unrelated milleniual stuff) is

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Well, now we are drifting off-the original topic. I would like to see this section addressed first.

1757:. Not everyone who is a zombie survivalist believes in the undead occult definition. That is all. -- 3708: 3692: 3232:

All I'm asking for is that you state, as specifically as possible, what is wrong with the article,

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As your objections so far seem (to me) far too vague to be actioned upon, I strongly suggest that

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without given a careful considerate thought to the potential evidence out there is close minded.

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as a reference instead of a link to the Zombie squad website should alleviate any concerns over "

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The sites two sites I have tried list are not mine so don't know why u keep on saying your site.

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appears to be about the same thing. I think it should be merged into this article. Thoughts? --

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off-topic. To get it back on point, I would submit we excise a little common sense and remove

1623:(→Survivalist scenarios and outlooks: Revived Zombie survival section, see talk page) (undo) 3431: 3304: 3126: 2941: 2897: 2214: 2112: 1730: 1418: 595: 459:

Yeah, I know it's a double post, but I thought I should have a seperate post for this thread.

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sell advertising and no real reason way Ref should list search of yahoo groups for a keyword

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http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2509&sid=93f71c2ab5ec23aa981c954cfe8694f0

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Field Notes, Rogue River, Oregon. The Safest Valley in America. Outside Magazine, June 1984

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I've got sort of a Beta version of a nav box on my talk page in case anyone is interested.

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Why does "Doomsdayer" (a 2000 movie with Brigitte Nielsen and Udo Kier) redirect here?

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Let's have the discussion then. Red flags go up when the criteria is as suggested above:

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http://survivalblog.com/2012/02/the-mainstream-medias-blatant-anti-preparedness-bias.html

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Survivalism page] since his name is at top it. www.survivalblog.com not restricted per *

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book, I learned that you said that the book was, to an extent, an anti-survivalist book.

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Multiple editors (albeit with very similar editing habits) have removed mention of the

3303:, while hilarious, can hardly be called a reliable source. Can we get a third opinion? 3101: 3067: 2177: 2076: 1802:

is rolling in his grave. Oh, but wait-a-minute, that would be post-death reanimation.

1414:, it was clearing out crap. Another user has now provided references to the section. -- 1411: 738: 664: 628: 271: 242: 167: 141: 3812:

Center for Infectious Disease Research & Policy, University of Minnesota, Nov 2008

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Preparing for the Worst: A new Growth Industry US News & World Report Feb. 9, 1981

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It has been removed. If a reliable source can be found, it is fine to bring it back.

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http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/sites/default/files/public/downloads/cidrap_coal_report.pdf

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to support your point of view, which is a basic requirement for any requested change.

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Fearing Society's Collapse, 'Survivalists" Cache Goods. New York Times Jan. 15, 1981

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have labelled themselves as "survivalists"- this was just the way they HAD to live.

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still has those clippings. Give me a day and Ill see if I can gather them them up.

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Sites in the References links that sell one of more items on the Survivalism Page.

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take credit for coining the term 'survivalist'. Is there verification for this? —

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http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17623645.300-star-wars-hits-the-streets.html

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ok nobody has responded so i assume nobody has a problem.... im making the change

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discussing this in-depth to show that this viepoint should be given the desired

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looks like some of my points have been addressed - good job on the revisions

46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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theme. Secondly, it isn't actually a zombie movie as the backstory is about a

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I've since found a book that verifies the quoted premise of the zombie squad;

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and a good place to start would be someone with knowledge fixing the POV tone.

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is very well known site for survivalism is used as a reference for this page.

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Why does this article redirect the search query "Shit hits the fan" to here?

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Knowledge:External links guideline for removing links]. User did not follow

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Please don't remove maintenance tags just because you don't agree with them.

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in philosophy and religion but noone can say with 100% God actually exists.

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Knowledge:External links guideline for removing links]. User did not follow

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a sudden rush of discussion, then there is no reason for the tag (Although

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Well, I just purchased a copy, it should come in the mail in a few days.

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I concur with the merge, although some split hairs over a distinction...

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thought, but there is ample evidence that is is a driving force for many.

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being an example where the American government readily experimented with

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infection (not reanimated dead people) causing the breakdown of society.

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Given that some preppers are genuinely believe they are preparing for a

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http://www.survivalistboards.com/showpost.php?p=1449837&postcount=50

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An e-mail from Brin is the source. This is the from Zombie squad forum.

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The Sky is Falling, The Sky is Falling. Penthouse magazine March, 1981

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A little digging did turn up another source, the Survival Blog entry (

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If this page were to be merged it would fit better being merged with

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Fad Passes, But Survivalists Still Stand Prepared (AP) July 14, 1986

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and parasites which affect the brain functioning of the host such as

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Unsourced statements in "Other groups related to survivalism" section

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at all the gun shows of the time that many survivalists attended"...

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Survivalism: Preparing for the Ultimate Disaster, GEO magazine, 1981

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Fad Passes, But Survivalists Still Stand Prepared (AP) July 14, 1986

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The Business of Survival Grows. The New York Times August 28, 1980

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I noticed that the cite for 'Schumer hits the fan' is a web forum (

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I hesitate to use Tweets and message-board postings for citations.

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See the reliable source link I posted above. With few exception,

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http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=survivalist&submit=Search

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If a reliable source can be found, I think it should be added.--

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Surviving the End of the World. New West magazine. Feb 25, 1980

1325:, but I believe that would be out of the scope of this article. 1241:

SHTF is a common survivalist acronym. Another one is TEOTWAWKI.

923: 3088:- Please draft and present such text you think should be added. 3049:

specific issues that are actionable within the content policies

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I concur, merge them, with Survivalism as the main page title.

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http://www.biorationalinstitute.com/zcontent/alpha_strategy.pdf

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http://www.badmovieplanet.com/unknownmovies/reviews/rev268.html

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That makes no freakin' sense. It is NOT a survivalist movie!

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With best wishes, for a confident and ambitious 21st Century,

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https://twitter.com/BabeInABunker/statuses/157144451599450113

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nothing negative about the subject is being allowed to appear

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sourced or should be removed, then feel free to address them.

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Open Directory - World: Deutsch: Freizeit: Outdoor: Survival

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Australian Survivalist (Survivalism in the new millennium)

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to the items placed here. This is just to make a point to

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has the same ref and link as 9. which what you are citing

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that must be either deleted or backed up with statistics.

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related articles. Any thoughts, concerns, ideas, etc.?

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Knowledge:External links guideline for removing links].

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musings over at their own pages, and in the apocalyptic

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information to maintain the merge, it should be undone.

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Knowledge:External links guideline for removing links].

867:

Look at that, spam and a blog...they're being removed.

3434:, and this has received coverage from reliable sources 1452:

I'm thinking of putting together a navigation box for

791:Added a external links section for external links. 3275:, although I'm having some trouble finding such in 3132:At the very least, please provide an assortment of 1942:"This gibberish makes real survivalists look bad." 181:people to prepare so the reach is much further. -- 3043:To elaborate: "Articles that have been linked to 1514:http://www.survivalblog.com/glossary.html#Schumer 1141:http://technohippie.com/archives/beasurvivor.html 3805:Here's one example of this sort of discussion: 1542:, for instance, ,hardly mentioned charity, and 116:Survivalist movements outside of North America? 3730:The Bible does indeed encourage storing food: 2707:This article might be a good starting point: 303:culture/television stereotypes with reality. 3758:And then look at this New Testament passage: 3535:Through the previous discussion I discovered 3125:- You're the only one whose noted a problem, 1483:http://www.whenshtf.com/showthread.php?t=9784 8: 987:you will receive for your disruptive edits. 1157:sell advertising through banner for movies 3515:Talk:Survivalism/Archive_1#Zombie_Nonsense 2484:I only found one of these article on-line: 1062:A site related to survival and Survivalism 1035:A site related to survival and Survivalism 838:A site related to survival and Survivalism 485:I certainly appreciate the encouragement. 3909:The New Zealand Preparedness Forum - Home 3334:Here's a Twitter link from BabeinaBunker 1840:Any objections to removing this section? 1134:http://hislink2.proboards53.com/index.cgi 1683:available the information for others to 1143:sell advertising through google adsense 1136:sell advertising through google adsense 3835: 3752:And ponder this Old Testament passage: 1655:4. Just like the other scenarios -: --> 3898:The Christian Survivalist Forum - Home 3122: 3113: 3107: 3097: 3091: 3085: 3076: 2671: 1783:are not considered a reliable source. 1725:) is not in any way, shape, or form a 236:"racist or white supremacist beliefs." 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3118:Do not use them as a badge of shame." 3098:the first paragraphs are unreferenced 2657:The article has been tagged as using 540:additional citations for verification 7: 3514: 3070:or similar may be more appropriate). 1148:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056331/ 1080:http://www.biorationalinstitute.com/ 280:Knowledge hypocrisy at its finest. 3073:To adress your few specific points: 2991:I don't see it. Specifics, please. 1691:is. I can rationally conclude that 1009:http://en.wikipedia.org/Survivalism 319:People who HOPE society breaks down 3110:- Please do. And be more specific. 3036:. Please don't apply tags without 2494:I'm sure there are others, guys. 1723:http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/ 1162:http://www.oism.org/nwss/index.htm 24: 3273:popular enough to merit inclusion 1944:This article is not about making 775:survivalistboards youtube channel 3719:--19:50, 18 February 2015 (UTC) 1082:sells advertising on their site 1075:sells advertising on their site 978: 29: 3797:Pandemics affecting fuel supply 3114:This is not a very good article 955:things it sells makes it spam. 604:. First, it has a very strong 473:I eagerly await your response. 3702:Split survivalism and preppers 2763:22:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC) 2667:22:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC) 1529:Schools of Survivalist Thought 1477:Schumer hits the fan source... 1073:http://www.aussurvivalist.com/ 545:Please list items of concern. 529:Please list items of concern. 513:Please list items of concern. 1: 3723:Recent Edit on Gospel of Luke 3717:19:50, 18 February 2015 (UTC) 3697:22:53, 12 December 2014 (UTC) 3348:21:22, 16 February 2013 (UTC) 3330:21:17, 16 February 2013 (UTC) 3313:19:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC) 3001:02:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC) 2964:17:49, 18 December 2012 (UTC) 2946:14:33, 18 December 2012 (UTC) 2882:04:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC) 2867:23:06, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 2853:21:01, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 2839:18:54, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 2599:15:27, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1685:come to their own conclusions 1569:Mutual Assistance Group (MAG) 1335:22:45, 21 February 2009 (UTC) 1300:03:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC) 1273:01:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC) 924:http://www.survivalebooks.com 622:05:26, 22 February 2009 (UTC) 499:David Brin www.davidbrin.com 380:20:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC) 225:21:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 171:09:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 145:09:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC) 84:00:42, 15 February 2005 (UTC) 3931:Swedish survivalist :: Index 3678:10:46, 31 October 2014 (UTC) 3658:14:52, 10 October 2014 (UTC) 3577:01:13, 12 October 2013 (UTC) 3555:01:09, 12 October 2013 (UTC) 3531:23:28, 11 October 2013 (UTC) 3509:22:23, 11 October 2013 (UTC) 3478:13:09, 11 October 2013 (UTC) 3463:14:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC) 3449:11:52, 10 October 2013 (UTC) 3402:07:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC) 3289:15:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC) 2986:23:24, 7 December 2012 (UTC) 2509:What is actual LDS teaching? 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The same author ( 2075:, space aliens, and 1729:and appears to be a 843:www.survivalblog.com 93:I believe I've seen 3707:wikipedia rules? -- 2713:James Wesley Rawles 2653:Citation formatting 2549:Perceived Extremism 2213:The Mitchell book, 1731:self-published Wiki 1005:James Wesley Rawles 3683:Original research? 3281:Mysterious Whisper 3249:Mysterious Whisper 3169:Mysterious Whisper 3167:dispute occuring. 3144:Mysterious Whisper 2993:Mysterious Whisper 2079:from the article. 476:Sincerely, Tomcat 208:Peace/Love/Harmony 161:indigenous peoples 3876:le-projet-olduvai 3483:It's a matter of 3432:zombie apocalypse 3426:Zombie apocalypse 3286: 3254: 3174: 3149: 3034:assume good faith 2998: 2602: 2585:comment added by 2520:comment added by 2113:zombie apocalypse 2071:nonsense such as 1705:comment added by 1390:comment added by 1368:comment added by 1362:selected users. 1103:sell advertising 809: 797:comment added by 596:zombie apocalypse 286:comment added by 72: 71: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3973: 3966: 3961: 3955: 3950: 3944: 3942:AlphaRubicon.com 3939: 3933: 3928: 3922: 3917: 3911: 3906: 3900: 3895: 3889: 3884: 3878: 3873: 3867: 3862: 3856: 3851: 3845: 3840: 3637: 3611: 3575: 3553: 3529: 3507: 3489:large percentage 3357: 3301:current citation 3284: 3277:reliable sources 3252: 3238:reliable sources 3172: 3147: 3134:reliable sources 2996: 2956:SoTotallyAwesome 2761: 2680: 2665: 2645: 2601: 2579: 2539: 2532: 2342: 2287: 2203: 2164: 2122: 2082: 2028: 1996: 1906: 1843: 1786: 1736: 1717: 1642:Project MK-ULTRA 1606: 1577: 1519: 1506: 1496: 1469: 1459: 1408:reliable sources 1402: 1380: 982: 792: 298: 89:Coining the term 63: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 18:Talk:Survivalism 3981: 3980: 3976: 3975: 3974: 3972: 3971: 3970: 3969: 3962: 3958: 3951: 3947: 3940: 3936: 3929: 3925: 3918: 3914: 3907: 3903: 3896: 3892: 3885: 3881: 3874: 3870: 3863: 3859: 3852: 3848: 3841: 3837: 3799: 3762: 3756: 3750: 3744: 3737: 3734: 3725: 3704: 3685: 3665: 3646: 3636: 3626: 3610: 3600: 3590:as "linkspam" ( 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3481: 3480: 3427: 3424: 3408: 3405: 3388: 3385: 3368: 3367:Term "Prepper" 3365: 3364: 3363: 3362: 3361: 3352: 3351: 3350: 3295: 3292: 3268: 3267: 3266: 3265: 3264: 3263: 3262: 3261: 3260: 3259: 3241: 3230: 3224:No, you don't 3213: 3212: 3211: 3210: 3209: 3208: 3207: 3206: 3196:94.192.225.169 3184: 3183: 3182: 3181: 3180: 3179: 3159: 3158: 3157: 3156: 3155: 3154: 3141: 3130: 3120: 3111: 3108:I could go on. 3105: 3095: 3089: 3083: 3074: 3071: 3068:Template:Undue 3059: 3054:Similarly, on 3052: 3041: 3025: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3012:94.192.225.169 3004: 3003: 2978:94.192.225.169 2973: 2970: 2969: 2968: 2967: 2966: 2929: 2928: 2927: 2926: 2916:203.184.41.226 2909: 2908: 2859:BobbieCharlton 2795:BobbieCharlton 2773: 2767: 2766: 2765: 2732: 2729: 2728: 2727: 2688: 2685: 2673: 2670: 2654: 2651: 2650: 2649: 2638: 2637: 2627:BobbieCharlton 2612:192.166.198.50 2607: 2604: 2551: 2545: 2544: 2543: 2522:74.104.144.133 2510: 2507: 2496:BobbieCharlton 2486: 2485: 2471:BobbieCharlton 2466: 2465: 2461: 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1789: 1788: 1787: 1772: 1771: 1770: 1769: 1741: 1740: 1617: 1614: 1613: 1612: 1611: 1610: 1597: 1596: 1570: 1567: 1552:Kurt Saxonites 1550:followers and 1530: 1527: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1478: 1475: 1474: 1473: 1449: 1446: 1445: 1444: 1443: 1442: 1424: 1423: 1392:24.205.217.245 1370:24.205.217.245 1350: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1344: 1343: 1342: 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1337: 1309: 1308: 1307: 1306: 1305: 1304: 1303: 1302: 1280: 1279: 1278: 1277: 1276: 1275: 1256: 1255: 1254: 1253: 1234:White Mage Cid 1229: 1226: 1214: 1213: 1203:Carl.bunderson 1179:Carl.bunderson 1175: 1067: 1065: 1064: 1031: 1030: 1029: 1028: 1027: 1026: 1025: 1024: 1023: 1022: 1021: 1020: 1019: 1018: 976: 975: 974: 973: 972: 971: 970: 969: 968: 967: 957:Carl.bunderson 943: 942: 941: 940: 939: 938: 937: 936: 908: 906: 905: 904: 903: 902: 901: 882: 881: 880: 879: 869:Carl.bunderson 848: 846: 845: 840: 834: 833: 828: 826: 825: 766: 765:External links 763: 762: 761: 760: 759: 758: 757: 756: 755: 754: 753: 752: 751: 750: 749: 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D. Redding 544: 543: 539: 535: 532: 531:J. D. Redding 528: 527: 523: 519: 516: 515:J. D. Redding 512: 511: 507: 502: 500: 497: 494: 490: 486: 483: 480: 477: 474: 471: 467: 463: 460: 457: 456: 451: 450: 446: 442: 437: 436: 432: 428: 425:survivalists. 419: 415: 411: 407: 406: 405: 404: 400: 396: 388: 386: 382: 381: 377: 373: 365: 363: 359: 356: 355: 352: 344: 342: 338: 335: 334: 331: 325: 318: 314: 310: 306: 301: 300: 299: 297: 293: 289: 285: 278: 275: 273: 266: 265: 262: 258: 254: 251: 249: 244: 235: 233: 226: 223: 219: 218: 217: 216: 212: 209: 204: 203: 202: 197: 194: 190: 189: 188: 187: 184: 175: 173: 172: 169: 160: 158: 157: 154: 146: 143: 138: 137: 136: 131: 130: 127: 122: 115: 111: 108: 104: 103: 102: 100: 96: 88: 86: 85: 82: 74: 68: 65: 62: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 3959: 3948: 3937: 3926: 3915: 3904: 3893: 3882: 3871: 3860: 3849: 3838: 3820: 3804: 3800: 3763: 3757: 3751: 3745: 3738: 3729: 3726: 3705: 3686: 3666: 3647: 3628: 3616: 3602: 3588:Zombie Squad 3585: 3566: 3558: 3544: 3541: 3537:Zombie Squad 3534: 3520: 3512: 3498: 3488: 3482: 3452: 3429: 3410: 3390: 3370: 3340:24.0.133.234 3322:24.0.133.234 3305:Braincricket 3297: 3269: 3244: 3233: 3225: 3062: 3048: 2975: 2934: 2930: 2898:Braincricket 2874:OneOregonMan 2870: 2856: 2842: 2831:OneOregonMan 2827: 2823: 2818:rather than 2816:Preparedness 2813: 2810: 2806: 2792: 2775: 2734: 2690: 2675: 2656: 2642:confusion.-- 2609: 2581:— Preceding 2568: 2553: 2512: 2493: 2487: 2467: 2427: 2412: 2361: 2175: 2140: 2115:or when the 2090:WP:NOTAFORUM 2064: 2058:one occasion 2053:survivalism. 1949: 1945: 1941: 1896: 1759:78.86.15.201 1707:78.86.15.201 1684: 1681: 1677: 1667: 1661:such as the 1659:mind control 1654: 1650: 1639: 1635: 1631: 1626: 1622: 1619: 1572: 1536: 1532: 1480: 1451: 1382: 1360: 1356: 1352: 1231: 1215: 1187: 1174: 1166: 1164:Sells books 1159: 1152: 1145: 1138: 1131: 1119: 1112: 1105: 1098: 1096:sells items 1091: 1089:sells items 1084: 1077: 1070: 1066: 1046: 1032: 985:last warning 984: 983:This is the 977: 907: 847: 827: 799:68.185.64.39 790: 768: 647: 643: 599: 582:12.107.188.5 562: 554: 498: 495: 491: 487: 484: 481: 478: 475: 472: 468: 464: 461: 458: 452: 438: 422: 392: 383: 369: 360: 357: 348: 345:In the Media 339: 336: 326: 322: 288:72.56.22.147 279: 276: 267: 259: 255: 252: 239: 231: 200: 179: 164: 149: 133: 123: 119: 99:Morning star 92: 78: 60: 43: 37: 3650:Lbertolotti 3597:WP:LINKSPAM 3470:60.242.1.97 3441:60.242.1.97 3356:Surv1v4l1st 2820:Survivalism 2760:Surv1v4l1st 2735:Merge with 2679:Surv1v4l1st 2664:Surv1v4l1st 2644:Surv1v4l1st 2538:Surv1v4l1st 2516:—Preceding 2341:Surv1v4l1st 2286:Surv1v4l1st 2202:Surv1v4l1st 2163:Surv1v4l1st 2121:Surv1v4l1st 2081:Surv1v4l1st 2027:Surv1v4l1st 1995:Surv1v4l1st 1905:Surv1v4l1st 1842:Surv1v4l1st 1785:Surv1v4l1st 1735:Surv1v4l1st 1701:—Preceding 1605:Surv1v4l1st 1576:Surv1v4l1st 1538:neighbors. 1518:Surv1v4l1st 1505:Surv1v4l1st 1495:Surv1v4l1st 1468:Surv1v4l1st 1458:Surv1v4l1st 1454:Survivalism 1386:—Preceding 1364:—Preceding 1327:Surv1v4l1st 1323:gun culture 1265:Surv1v4l1st 793:—Preceding 614:Surv1v4l1st 606:survivalist 282:—Preceding 248:weasel word 222:BenWoodruff 213:DaisyPicker 193:Dragomiloff 183:BenWoodruff 36:This is an 3670:2.33.233.3 3619:using that 3582:"Linkspam" 3485:due weight 3387:Definition 3245:repeatedly 2894:verifiable 2606:Doomsdayer 2389:SaltyBoatr 2308:SaltyBoatr 2284:developed. 2259:SaltyBoatr 2222:SaltyBoatr 2197:different. 2183:SaltyBoatr 2143:SaltyBoatr 2094:SaltyBoatr 2040:SaltyBoatr 2005:SaltyBoatr 1954:SaltyBoatr 1852:SaltyBoatr 1586:4twenty42o 1548:Mel Tappan 1544:Kurt Saxon 1540:Mel Tappan 1487:Web forums 1218:billylenks 1190:billylenks 1050:billylenks 929:billylenks 852:billylenks 153:Mark Grant 95:Kurt Saxon 3689:Wikidgood 3392:preppers. 3294:Panic sex 3129:yourself. 3045:this page 2662:Thanks.-- 2659:bare URLs 2587:Siltharin 1663:Jonestown 1033:As for * 739:Sapanther 665:Sapanther 644:fictional 629:Sapanther 489:McVeigh. 220:Pulled -- 168:Gringo300 142:Gringo300 67:Archive 2 61:Archive 1 3823:DMahalko 3663:Really?? 3644:Business 3623:linkspam 2769:Merging 2717:Expatter 2677:topic?-- 2595:contribs 2583:unsigned 2547:NPOV on 2518:unsigned 2117:HAL 9000 1833:number." 1703:unsigned 1673:a priori 1388:unsigned 1366:unsigned 795:unsigned 366:Reteater 284:unsigned 126:Raddicks 81:Redblayd 3487:. 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