956:- This leads me to think that there is a lot written on this particular novel. How did you choose these sources out of the vast panopoly that must be available? I would also encourage you to add citations that indicate these readings of the novel are the commonly accepted readings. With literature, there are usually a few commonly accepted readings that everyone teaches in undergraduate courses and them a plethora of outliers. We need to reassure our readers that these aren't the outliers.
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what it's worth, the book reference is: Old Goriot, Balzac, translated by Marion Ayton
Crawford, Penguin Books, 1962. The introduction, by Crawford, is dated 1950. I'm not sure that such a minor comment would constitute a useful addition to the article, but if someone wants me to add it I will. BTW, I did a quick web search: "Goriot king lear" throws up several essays which explicitly consider the comparison. --
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2451:. Basically, it is a link to the original edition but with annotations in English designed to help people whose English is stronger than their French. The annotations are completely interactive and can also be added by any registered users. The site (and its interface) is geared completely towards people who are reading foreign-language literature. Currently, there are 900+ annotations
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1306:- it is not denotative reservation, but rather a connotative one. For me "idiom" conjures up "idiomatic" and indicates that Balzac's style was unique to the point of not being replicated, which it was not. It influenced other writers, who adopted parts of it. That was why I thought something like "style" might be more appropriate.
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What I tend to do is make sure that the notes appear together for a certain claim (X, 45; Y, 46; Z, 47) so that the reader is at least assured that there are multiple places where the idea appears. This only partially works, of course, because sometimes we use that format to cut down on the number of
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In 1843 Balzac placed Le Père Goriot in the section of La Comédie humaine entitled "Scènes de la vie parisienne" ("Scenes of life in Paris"). Quickly thereafter, he reclassified it – due to its intense focus on the private lives of its characters – as one of the "Scènes de la vie privée" ("Scenes of
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I agree with keeping strata. This sentence just feels odd to me - its entire weight is in the "subject" section; then we reach "are visible". Well, yes. Whoo. Do you see what I mean? I feel like the reader doesn't gain anything from the "predicate" part of the sentence - it's top heavy or something.
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Although history is not central to Le Père Goriot, the post-Napoleonic era serves as an important setting, and the use of meticulous detail reflects the influence of Scott. Still, Balzac accused the
Scottish writer of romanticizing the past, and tried to distinguish his own work with a more balanced
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I just had another glance at that introduction. In fact, the reference to King Lear is really just this passing remark: "... appears here to have deliberately chosen to show that a working-class Lear may exist, whose story is not less terrible or less affecting than
Shakespeare's great king". For
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Without a doubt, this article passes GA: it is well-written; it is factually accurate and verifiable; it covers all major aspects of the topic; it is neutral; it is stable; and it is appropriately illustrated. Well done, Scartol! Here are my questions, comments, and suggestions beyond this stage.
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Another way is to say something like this in the text: "One of the most common interpretations of LPG is..." However, you have to be able to back this up. How do you know it is one of the most common? Sometimes
Knowledge's demands are ridiculous because it precludes you from including important
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I agree that it's important to show that these are the consensus readings; I've tried to do so with multiple citations where possible. Beyond that (or discussing my selection process on the talk page, which seems silly), I'm not sure how to go about it. I tried to use sources and readings that
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Actually, I don't think that discussing your selection process on the talk page is silly at all. It is a way for future editors to check your work and for people unfamiliar with Balzac scholarship but familiar with literary research methods to see how thorough you were. Besides, it is a great
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is one of the most important interpretations out there. His thesis about the "improvement of the estate" can be found in almost all undergraduate classrooms and has sparked much scholarly debate. However, it is hard to find someone who says that it is important for P&P, if you see what I
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We seem to be having it both ways. If we're happy to title the article without the Le, then surely that must be reflected in every mention in the article of the
English-speaking world's preferred form. Or would that jar with the form shown in the infobox? If so, why not show an image of an
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throughout the article. Nor is there any mention in the article explaining why the different forms are used. This seems very odd for a featured article, yet I can see no discussion about this since the move was made well over 2 years ago. Can someone enlighten me about this? --
622:, sure. I don't see the relationship myself. Lear had three daughters, Goriot two. Lear banished one of his daughters, leading to the central plot, whereas Goriot never banished either of his daughters. One of Lear's daughters dies at the end, whereas Goriot's both live. |
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I did some copy editing as I was reading - obviously feel free to revert any of that. This was an engaging article overall. Sometimes I felt that the paragraphs didn't quite flow into each other, but this is not always possible to achieve. A pleasure, as always.
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I've removed the first sentence. I hope I'm not being a dunce, but if I were to adopt the phrasing suggested above, I'm not sure how I might end that sentence. So I've just left it alone. But now I feel like that paragraph lacks a coherent topic sentence.
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This is cited to
Dedinsky, Brucia L. "Development of the Scheme of the Comédie humaine: Distribution of the Stories". The Evolution of Balzac's Comédie humaine. Ed. E. Preston Dargan and Bernard Weinberg. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1942. OCLC
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I haven't read King Lear myself, so it's not my just a random hypothesis of mine. The relationship is mentioned in the introduction to my old
Pelican edition of "Old Goriot" (as it's called). With regard to the banished daughter, that could be Victorine
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I was also wondering if we could somehow get rid of "LPG depends heavily on its historical background" and just show how it depends on its specific historical background. The idea seems to be repeated twice. Sorry for not explaining more thoroughly.
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Vautrin's speech to
Rastignac, which is widely regarded as a high point in the novel, strongly prefigures Nietzsche's idea of the Superman /fifty years later) who has the right to grab and use anything, kil anyone, and break the laws, because he
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It is stated in the text that Goriot's funeral is attended only by
Rastignac and medical student named Bianchon and Christophe (and paid mourners). Actually, only Rastignac and Christophe was there (and paid mourners), and Bianchon had to
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I assume more can be said about the serial publication and the book publication? For example, how many numbers did it take up in the magazine? What was changed for the book publication? Was the book multi-volume? Who published the book?
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Set in Paris in 1819, it follows three intertwined characters: the elderly title character and his self-sacrificing love for his daughters; a mysterious criminal-in-hiding named
Vautrin; and a naive law student named Eugène de
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Thank you kindly! As noted, I worked on it at my drawing board, then moved it here; I think that may be the cause of the disjointed paragraphs in places. This is the first time I've done such a thing, so I'm learning as I
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Le Père Goriot (English: Father Goriot or Old Goriot) is an 1835 novel by French novelist and playwright Honoré de Balzac (1799–1850) and included in the Scènes de la vie privée section of his novel sequence La Comédie
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When Balzac began writing Le Père Goriot in 1834, he had published several dozen books, including a stream of pseudonymously-published potboiler novels, as well as Louis Lambert, Le Colonel Chabert, and La Peau de
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Yet another way is to say, "renowned Balzac scholar AW argues that..." Again, this is a bit oblique, but it at least alerts the reader to the fact that a prominent Balzac scholar accepts that interpretation.
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article. One moment was particularly good, however, which was when the editors noted that one scholar was traditionally given credit for being the first to use a particular interpretative lens (Ingham and
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I've tried to think of an intellectual argument to mask the fact that I had a lot of trouble placing those images where they are and I hate to think that I'll have to move them. =) But I'll look into it.
1355:- I think you are using the semi-colon as a crutch here - can we make this flow better? What about something like: "The 1814 Bourbon Restoration, which had brought profound changes in French society...."
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2387:(1842–8), based on the Catalogue of 1845 (C), with subsequent modifications—the 1846 Prospectus for a projected new edition by Furne and Balzac's corrections on his own copy of the original edition."
2526:, because "all English-language editions (Oxford, Signet, Norton, Kindle, etc), list this title as Père Goriot, without the prefix, thus indicating that is the form in the English-speaking world".
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Le Père Goriot depends heavily on its historical background; the 1814 Bourbon Restoration had brought profound changes in society, and the struggle of class is ubiquitous throughout the novel.
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has lots of alternative approaches, but I didn't pull from it, since they're mostly "outliers"). Can you specify how I might make clear the mainstreamity of these sources? Thanks. –
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I like this best of all, and I've done that with Saintsbury, Rogers, Barbéris, and Brooks. (I tend to use "critic" rather than "scholar" to avoid arguments about their credentials.)
1235:- Should we repeat Goriot's name for parallel structure? Also, the first clause in the list doesn't fit neatly within the pattern with its "and". Is there a way to rectify this?
2383:. Hunt includes this preface to his list of the scheme: "The Conrad arrangement is given here. It follows Balzac's own revised classification of the original 'Comédie Humaine'
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Many, many fiction writers have used characters in more than one book. As stated, the sentence even includes sequels. Apart from those, the first one I can think off-hand is
1116:- Seems a little awkward - what do you think about two sentences? Also, how can a novel be part of a novel? Can this be made any clearer? Is it actually a novella, for example?
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The Charter of 1814 granted by King Louis XVIII of France created a legal structure dominated by wealth and serves as the backdrop for Rastignac's maneuvers in Le Père Goriot.
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This is one of the biggest problems of writing literature pages. If you want to see what happens when too many scholars are quoted without enough context, see the current
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The article says, "It marks the first serious use by the author of characters who had appeared in other books, a technique that distinguishes Balzac's fiction and makes
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The second paragraph of "Literary background" needs a better transition, I think. It is a little confusing to the reader why we are suddenly talking about a grifter. :)
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overlap and match up with what I read when I studied it years ago for the first time. There are a number of other readings that I left alone altogether (a book called
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The Charter of 1814 granted by King Louis XVIII of France created a legal structure dominated by wealth and set the stage for Rastignac's maneuvers in Le Père Goriot.
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Père Goriot. And that's repeated throughout the article. We look across to the infobox and see an image of the cover page of the French edition and there it is,
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I have reconstructed this article, replacing it all at once with text scribbled in a userpage of mine. I've vastly reduced the plot summary, in accordance with
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I've been known to crutch it up with the semicolons. I just made it into two sentences. (I'm not sure what the nature of your proposed revision was, sorry.) –
724:, and tried to include the same basic thematic overview as the previous version. Of course, if anyone feels that the new version is lacking – and can provide
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The Shakespeare reference seems more of a "theme" to me than a "style" - the theme of filial loyalty/disloyalty is what Balzac was lifting from Shakespeare.
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It just seemed odd as the undefinable was being isolated to a poor boardinghouse, if you see what I mean. Perhaps something along the lines of "illusive"?
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Sounds like you have a good citation. I say add it, and make sure you cite that essay in your edition, either via endnotes or in a References section. |
1769:. Is it stanky feet? Old onions? etc. All we know is that nothing else smells like it. Maybe "undefinable" is not the right word. Maybe "unspecific"? –
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Perhaps. I changed it to: "Rastignac expresses in his words and actions the zeitgeist of the time in which he lives." which also allows me to wikilink
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1625:- I don't know if "intense" is the best word to choose. What about something like "meticulous"? Do you mean many details or precise details? or both?
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1679:- "borrowed" doesn't seem quite right - what about something like "gained" or "acquired"? I don't like those, but they seem along the right track.
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Balzac included 23 recurring characters in the first edition of Le Père Goriot; during his revisions for later editions the number increased to 48
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Could someone edit the template at the bottom of the page? I would do it except I have no idea which position of la vie privée to place it in. --
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Balzac borrowed the latter detail from the expertise of his friend Hyacinthe de Latouche, who was trained in the practice of hanging wallpaper.
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I hope this was helpful. I continue to struggle with these issues myself all of the time and I don't think I've found the ideal solutions yet.
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Nope; the commons has images for all of his novels, sans attribution in many cases. I've tried to find more information, without luck. –
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No need; I think I catch your drift. Maybe I was hoping to make it carry more than it's capable of. Replaced with "at the same time". –
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I am not enamored by "incorporated" there, either. Perhaps something will strike us while mid-plagiarism lecture. (I just gave mine.)
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Again with the "don't start paragraphs with out-of-the-blue descriptions of unrelated things". =) I've added a transition sentence. –
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Balzac analyzes, through Goriot and others, the meanings of family and marriage, providing a bleak perspective on these institutions.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the
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OK so far. It's now Père Goriot. We start reading and immediately there's a problem: the very first words are not Père Goriot but
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The novel is also cited as a noteworthy example of his realist idiom, describing minute details to expose character and subtext.
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defines an idiom as "A style (of art, architecture, music, etc.)." But maybe to avoid confusion I should just use "style"? –
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Yeah, I stuck that in from the original HdB article, then tried to match it up. Didn't quite work. I used "incorporated". –
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You don't think it works? I kind of like the way it blurred things a bit. Confirm your disapproval and I'll change it. –
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Except that it also comes through very explicitly in the narration. I used: "Through his characters and narration...". –
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Alas, the book only barely mentions LPG. Hopefully some of the other books I've ordered recently will shed some light. –
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Balzac uses intense detail to describes the Maison Vauquer, its inhabitants, and the opulent luxury of the upper classes
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teaching moment. Now that you mention this, I feel like I should go back and do this for all of the FAs I have written.
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1937:- This is just a teensy bit enigmatic. I get what it is saying, but I wonder if it is as clear as it could be.
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No, it is meant to refer to Goriot as the title character, but I think it's just confusing. I took it out. –
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The boundaries of society's strata and the urgency of ascending them is ubiquitous throughout Le Père Goriot.
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I think I had echoes of a wise friend who said "keep the summary short" in my ears. =) But I'll add more. –
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series of works, which correctly matches the La Comédie humaine template box. I have made the correction.
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Yeah, I wasn't sure about balancing an explanation of it with a focus on LPG itself, but I'll add more. –
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This info didn't jump out at me, but I'll try to track it down. I agree it would be helpful to include. –
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As with Scott's characters, the historical milieu in which he lives is reflected in Rastignac's attitude.
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The house is even defined by its repulsive smell, undefinable except as unique to the poor boardinghouse.
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I just came to this talk page to make the same comment. As written, this sentence doesn't make sense. —
1555:- I feel like the "still" isn't exactly the right connector here. It is hard to say why, though. Sorry.
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1856:." (I think strata is important to keep, as no other word quite fits, especially with the link.) –
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A quick verb tense check might be in order - a few times I wondered if the past tense was correct.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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1841:- Sounds a little pretentious - intentional, perhaps? Content and form reflecting each other? :)
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The Machiavellian marriages could be described in more detail in the "Family relations" section.
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Isn't there a relationship between the novel and King Lear? Can a short discussion be added? --
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Balzac and his characters employ no nuance in describing the social Darwinism of this society.
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864:- This leads me to think there should be an entire section on "Revisions for later editions".
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Mmmmmmm.. I like the distinction. I'm gonna keep it. Quit telling me what to do! You don't
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1129:. I didn't want to wikilink it because it would make two bumping links. Maybe I should? –
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could someone please help me i need a thesis of Le Pere Goriot and i cannot figure one out
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http://www.tailoredtexts.com/read/le-pere-goriot-balzac-honore-de/#!/10877/en/d/0/0/0/
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This pattern mirrors Balzac's general use of characters throughout La Comédie humaine.
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Both Rastignac and Goriot himself represent individuals corrupted by their desires.
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by Daniel Burt, 2004, Checkmark Books. The author was a professor of literature at
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Argh – you're not supposed to notice! =) Changed to: "The boundaries of society's
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I'm still not happy with the state of play. Let me state the problem once more.
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Odd agency here - How about "Through his characters, Balzac employs no nuance..."
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No, I think I get it. I've rewritten it as: "One of the most prevalent themes in
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Yeah, this feels the diciest of the options. It just seems to scream "Contest me"
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1201:- "The intertwined lives of three characters" or something like that?
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I think in this case, the bumping links is the lesser of two evils.
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Originally the article was titled exactly as per the French title,
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Clarified: "This pattern of people moving in and out of view..." –
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http://nl.wikipedia.org/Overleg_gebruiker:EdBever/Archief/dec_2011
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2537:(although the 2nd and 3rd words are much larger than the Le).
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http://meta.wikimedia.org/User:COIBot/XWiki/tailoredtexts.com
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Do you have a source, Sowsear? Both Robb and Hunt list it in
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Thanks again. I'll keep working on the paragraphs as I go. –
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Set in Paris in 1819, it follows three intertwined characters
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
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Perhaps you're looking at an older categorization of LCH?
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As noted above, I've tried to do this as much as possible.
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Le Père Goriot is widely considered Balzac's finest novel.
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Do we know the names of the artists for the illustrations?
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Changed to "a pessimistic view of these institutions". –
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Scènes de la vie privée VS. Scènes de la vie Parisienne
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use of the technique made Balzac's body of work unique
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Yes indeed, and I just yesterday got a new book called
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Top-importance 19th century novels task force articles
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
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and the need to conquer them are visible throughout
1436:- Anything more specific than "bleak" would be nice.
325:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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728:for claims – please tweak as necessary. Cheers! –
59:This article appeared on Knowledge's Main Page as
1903:is the quest to understand and conquer society's
2662:FA-Class 19th century novels task force articles
2079:- This is an odd mixture of reality and fiction.
1268:- Was it a "realist idiom" or a "realist style"?
1242:I changed it to: "the elderly doting Goriot". –
240:, a project which is currently considered to be
2293:, and I can list more if desired. Maybe the
1880:I don't think I'm explaining this very well.
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1302:I should have explained my reservation over
43:. Even so, if you can update or improve it,
39:as one of the best articles produced by the
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1470:- Dates for the publication of these works?
831:and how this fits into it would be helpful.
2447:I hope you don't mind me adding a link to
1971:Awesome! Everyone should know "zeitgest".
1632:Both. How about "meticulous, abundant"? –
966:Approaches to Teaching Balzac's Old Goriot
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873:The Evolution of Balzac's Comédie humaine
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2332:I think the present version is better. —
589:and because he has the guiding impulse.
566:My main source for this new section was
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2454:I have talked to EdBever about this at
1765:Well, but we don't know what it smells
1082:It is helpful. Thanks for expanding. –
465:to talk over new ideas and suggestions.
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1758:- Then it is not "undefinable", right?
1007:citations, but it is one way to start.
1811:Yeah, "illusive" is good. Changed. –
1728:Lemme know if inspiration strikes. –
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437:This article is within the scope of
319:This article is within the scope of
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2672:Old requests for novels peer review
2161:- Is this supposed be "themselves"?
191:It is of interest to the following
1325:Yeah, okay. Changed to "style". –
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2458:and have recorded this edit here
2048:this article! =) Just kidding. –
620:cite a source for that connection
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2612:Knowledge level-5 vital articles
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2284:unique among bodies of work."
999:Okay, I suppose I can do this.
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2657:Top-importance novel articles
2477:Dropping the definite article
2434:02:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
2025:Or, "Through his text..." :)
668:20:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
646:13:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
632:15:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
613:10:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
513:This article is supported by
333:and see a list of open tasks.
2647:All WikiProject France pages
2545:translation front cover? --
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743:18:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
579:22:11, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
471:Knowledge:WikiProject Novels
339:Knowledge:WikiProject France
252:Knowledge:WikiProject Balzac
2677:WikiProject Novels articles
2592:Knowledge featured articles
2554:20:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
2522:. Then on 25 February 2016
2392:As I wrote in the article:
2362:Scènes de la vie Parisienne
2276:Characters from other books
474:Template:WikiProject Novels
342:Template:WikiProject France
255:Template:WikiProject Balzac
2693:
2418:23:34, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
2374:21:08, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
2360:. It is actually from the
2340:20:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
2324:12:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
2309:05:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
678:12:26, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
497:project's importance scale
462:general Project discussion
365:project's importance scale
135:Featured article candidate
2506:01:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
599:16:24, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
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2637:FA-Class France articles
2578:02:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
1208:Much better. Changed. –
710:21:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
61:Today's featured article
2652:FA-Class novel articles
2607:FA-Class vital articles
2484:changed the title from
2354:Scènes de la vie privée
537:This article has had a
516:19th century task force
116:WikiProject peer review
2356:series of de Balzac's
2301:. What do you think? —
533:
509:
2290:A Sentimental Journey
1553:view of human nature.
532:
508:
178:level-5 vital article
2566:stay in the hospital
1108:Minor prose issues:
762:Possible expansion:
97:Good article nominee
2524:we dropped the "Le"
1655:Sounds good to me.
1024:Pride and Prejudice
572:Wesleyan University
41:Knowledge community
2462:Thank you, Daniel
2282:La Comédie humaine
829:La Comédie humaine
748:GA pass and review
534:
510:
440:WikiProject Novels
322:WikiProject France
238:WikiProject Balzac
187:content assessment
72:Article milestones
63:on March 15, 2010.
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568:The Novel 100
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527:
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519:(assessed as
518:
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457:short stories
454:
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432:Novels portal
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2109:Alternative:
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702:68.162.18.42
696:— Preceding
693:
641:Taillefer.--
607:
586:
582:
567:
565:
562:Major themes
544:now archived
542:
514:
492:
460:
438:
393:19th century
360:
320:
241:
193:WikiProjects
176:
150:
133:
114:
96:
95:
45:please do so
34:
26:
2490:Père Goriot
2426:StephanNaro
2366:Sowsearsoup
618:If you can
539:peer review
27:Père Goriot
2586:Categories
2548:Jack of Oz
2500:Jack of Oz
2488:to simply
2295:systematic
1233:Rastignac.
604:King Lear?
453:novelettes
36:identified
2075:Caption:
1946:zeitgeist
1477:Added. –
875:. Yay! –
726:citations
541:which is
181:is rated
2444:Hi All,
2241:Awadewit
2198:Will do.
2114:Awadewit
2027:Awadewit
1973:Awadewit
1882:Awadewit
1794:Awadewit
1711:Awadewit
1657:Awadewit
1532:Awadewit
1468:chagrin.
1388:Awadewit
1308:Awadewit
1171:Done. –
1154:Awadewit
1114:humaine.
1065:Awadewit
698:unsigned
675:Malcohol
664:¡digame!
643:Malcohol
628:¡digame!
610:Malcohol
576:Keithlaw
449:novellas
243:inactive
217:inactive
183:FA-class
140:Promoted
121:Reviewed
2559:Funeral
2406:Scartol
2398:905236.
2258:Scartol
2219:Scartol
2171:Scartol
2134:Scartol
2089:Scartol
2051:Scartol
2005:Scartol
1951:Scartol
1910:Scartol
1859:Scartol
1814:Scartol
1772:Scartol
1731:Scartol
1689:Scartol
1635:Scartol
1602:Scartol
1590:exactly
1565:Scartol
1510:Scartol
1480:Scartol
1446:Scartol
1409:Scartol
1365:Scartol
1328:Scartol
1282:Scartol
1245:Scartol
1211:Scartol
1174:Scartol
1132:Scartol
1085:Scartol
971:Scartol
933:Scartol
901:Scartol
878:Scartol
841:Scartol
807:Scartol
776:Scartol
731:Scartol
495:on the
363:on the
80:Process
2381:privée
2337:(Talk)
2306:(Talk)
1905:strata
1850:strata
690:Thesis
468:Novels
445:novels
388:Novels
336:France
327:France
283:France
249:Balzac
212:Balzac
189:scale.
102:Listed
83:Result
2570:MikyM
2511:Redux
2385:(sic)
2316:Bkell
1304:idiom
1027:mean.
722:WP:SS
170:This
29:is a
2574:talk
2568:. --
2468:talk
2430:talk
2370:talk
2320:talk
2246:talk
2119:talk
2032:talk
1978:talk
1948:. –
1887:talk
1799:talk
1767:like
1716:talk
1662:talk
1537:talk
1393:talk
1313:talk
1159:talk
1070:talk
797:Etc.
706:talk
660:Klaw
624:Klaw
595:talk
574:. |
455:and
355:High
77:Date
2413:Tok
2265:Tok
2226:Tok
2178:Tok
2141:Tok
2096:Tok
2058:Tok
2046:own
2012:Tok
1958:Tok
1917:Tok
1866:Tok
1821:Tok
1779:Tok
1738:Tok
1696:Tok
1642:Tok
1609:Tok
1572:Tok
1517:Tok
1487:Tok
1453:Tok
1416:Tok
1372:Tok
1335:Tok
1289:Tok
1275:My
1252:Tok
1218:Tok
1181:Tok
1139:Tok
1092:Tok
978:Tok
940:Tok
908:Tok
885:Tok
848:Tok
814:Tok
783:Tok
758:go.
738:Tok
587:can
487:Top
2588::
2576:)
2531:Le
2470:)
2432:)
2409:•
2372:)
2322:)
2261:•
2243:|
2222:•
2216:–
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2008:•
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