Talk:Paul Singer (businessman)/Archive 2

3964:, I am reverting your edit as you seem to have misread or been selective in your reading of the quote by the port director: “Since the GPHA as an entity was not party in the matter, any economic loss by the Authority as a result of the action taken by the creditors which sought to deprive GPHA of its revenue must be borne by them”, Adorkor said." - The Mercopress source said it was undecided, but the text in the article was referring to what the port director said, which is that NML should bare the cost of their illegal actions. 1898:. Singer's chairmanship at the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research is already noted in the "Board memberships" section. If people want to read more into Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, they can click on the wikilink. There is no reason to describe the institute as "a right-wing think tank which supports hydraulic fracturing and downplays the effects of man-made climate change." We can't cherrypick issues the institute researches and it certainly does not deserve to be on a BLP. 2313:

than remove the sections you are disputing, why don't we try and find additional RS for support. Your assertions that "it's really not unusual for people like singer to donate to a number of causes to boost their public image" and "but it is usually used to mask ideological agendas, or as in this case, put a positive spin on an extremely repulsive human being" are speculatory and there is no basis for support. Singer's BLP is not supposed to read like an attack page. Thanks.

31: 2939:(support inclusion of EMP view with improved citation). Multiple RS. We are not asked to edit the subject of this article's views. He is not alone in his concern. Singer's belief that he knows how the world will probably end is significant, in itself and also as to what it is not: according to rs Singer worries less than most about, for example, nuclear conflagration touched off in the Middle East and global warming. 1902:

taken completely out of context. First off, it is written with a clear POV. Second, the source states, "according to the World Bank, the top 26 vultures have managed to collect $ 1bn from the world's poorest countries and still have a further $ 1.3bn to collect. Gordon Brown has described the payouts as 'morally outrageous'" - Brown is not specifically talking about Elliott Management thus violating

133:. Do you favor your generalization precisely because it is such a neat summary it completely subsumes every possible more specific content regarding any grantee that any editor might find anywhere, in any reliable source, therefore, there is no need for any more specific detail? Of course you understand "summary style" is not intended to frustrate detail when supported by weight in reliable sources. 2286:"Philanthropy" also seems like a bit of a weasel word or euphemism for "PR" or "political influence" to me, much like "corporate social responsibility". I know it is used often in the States, but it is usually used to mask ideological agendas, or as in this case, put a positive spin on an extremely repulsive human being. I would appreciate some input on a better title for that section. 173:. You and I both know, many of the libertarian organizations and politicians oppose strong military. My alternative summarization would say something along the lines of, "Singer has given millions of dollars to politicians" but that of course wouldn't be necessary as it is already discussed throughout the article. We can't cherry pick sources to support inclusion of favored content. 1878:. I'm willing to put that aside for now and focus on the other content so that we can reach consensus on it, but I would appreciate it if Meatgains would stop reverting the other edits in the mean time because there is a lot of non-objectable content there (eg. the insider trading fines used Reuters as a reference and that story was picked up by multiple outlets). 1968:, looking through this talkpage in its entirety for the first time, it seems like you have been "protecting" Singer's personal autobiography from criticism for at least a couple of years now, just after a sockpuppet and a COI were banned. I have asked you once, and I will ask you again, do you have any conflicts of interest with editing this article? 1804:(he is a notable journalist threatened by the person in question and Singer deems him important enough to keep a file on him). I'm going to re-add the other parts you have removed, especially being on the board of the Manhattan Institute - it seems very suspicious to me that you would want to remove that, but I will continue to assume good faith. 698:. That's over 2 to 1. That's consensus. But more importantly, you have a persistent history of excluding negative information about Singer from this article with the explanation that you feel it isn't relevant. Surely experience from past discussion has suggested this isn't a good strategy? What you're doing really pushes some 1071:"final decision to leave it off the page"??? What are you smoking? Whatever it is, I'd like to try it. "The weak consensus is to allow use of the term" -- no doubt you'll have something to say about "weak", but we can also discuss "consensus" and "allow", and we then won't get to "final decision to leave it off the page". 2380:, but since there are no sources demonstrating that, it simply remains my opinion. Only objective edits go into the article. Singer's article is also not supposed to read like an official press release, so please don't make it look like one. Similarly, if you have any conflicts of interest then please disclose them. 3867:

favourable of Singer. They were not necessary edits, they were just another feeble attempt at making this article look like a PR puff piece for Singer instead of something remotely encyclopaedic. I am reverting the edits and will ask you to stop using Knowledge as a mouthpiece for morally dubious economic interests.

1178:- Ok Meats; here's a question. When you scan through RS, do you more often see Singer's name mentioned in association with "vulture" or do you see "Elliott management corporation" associate with "vulture". If the latter was true, I'd agree with you. If the former, then we're just duly reflecting what is in the RS. 2683:- The source quotes, "So far, according to the World Bank, the top 26 vultures have managed to collect $ 1bn from the world's poorest countries and still have a further $ 1.3bn to collect. Gordon Brown has described the payouts as 'morally outrageous'." The quotation is describing payouts, not Elliott Management. 940:; that said, mentioning that some notable entity (i.e. the Argentinian government) has called Singer a vulture, particularly when so many other other have, strikes me as due. Lots of mainstream source have noted Singer in relation to the term "vulture". Surely it's right we give some nod to that in the lead? 3663:

I can't say whether or not that is the case but it is not our job to assume. The provided source does not describe Elliott's behavior as "morally outrageous". If we are going to add such contentious material, it will need another source making a connection between Elliott and the negative description

2992:

Your continued attempts to whitewash anything remotely negative about Singer are rather pathetic. There's an entire section on Elliott and on the Paul E. Singer Foundation, so there should also be a section on the Manhattan Institute, which he is chairman of. I agree that placing emphasis on this one

2371:

are clearly marked. His opinions are notable and are clearly marked as his opinions and not displayed as fact. When a prominent and noteworthy figure comments on the subject matter and it's noteworthy, then it should be included in the article. Please refrain from using double standards to squash any

2272:

If there is consensus, I would also like to remove or condense some of the promotional material simply listed from his websites, like I did with "Community development". I think the "Military" and "Giving Pledge" sections should be removed, and just mention the donations briefly in a sentence or less

2119:

Thank you for your recent contributions. We agree the article is non-neutral with respect to reliable sources. I enjoyed reading the Guardian profile you added as a source. I'm surprised it was not used as a source previously. Rather than a criticism section, I would be interested in collaborating on

2103:

This article at the moment seems like a bit of a whitewash, with no mention of any criticism of Singer, despite being a hugely controversial figure, even within the financial world. Considering the sheer amount of stuff out there criticising Singer, I am going to be creating and adding to a criticism

1799:

go in the lede. As NickCT says, blanket reversions are extremely unproductive and so is scrubbing all negative information about Singer - this isn't supposed to be a nice piece of PR for the guy on his charitable endeavours. I think we should continue discussing the Palast issue, which I think should

3399:

Mr Singer, who counts former presidential candidate Mitt Romney among Elliott's investors, has parlayed his fortune into a major role as a donor to Republic causes, bankrolling political action committees that support mainstream Republican candidates and, in a personal and high-profile campaign, gay

1350:

Reliable sources connect Singer to his hedge fund in publications when treating the "vulture fund" idea. This is unsurprising, given that he is CEO of the fund. I understand you would like to separate Singer and his hedge fund in this connection, but the available sources don't support doing this,

304:

First, the contentious material should be removed from the page until a consensus is met on this issue however, I do not want to engage in an edit war. Second, only one of the sources you provided makes the connection between Singer's contributions and "a strong military." The issue at hand does not

3182:

Should be included throughout and most certainly in the lede. Despite opinions, the fact that Singer provokes a strong reaction from his opponents should be included. One of the largest electronics companies in the world even published cartoons of him depicted as a vulture ready to murder people in

3158:

I support the use of the term "vulture" in the body with in-text attribution, even if the in-text attribution is to "several..."; let's look at the strength of the refs together and consider dropping in-text attribution and lifting to WP voice; then, later, let's consider our lede. Hope this helps.

2789:

The edit in discussion is over the claim, "Brown had called the behaviour of Singer's Vulture Fund Elliott Management 'morally outrageous' with regards to their activities in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, which saw a lawsuit for over $ 1 billion of debt payments in the severely malnourished

2714:

The source states: "Congo-Brazzaville has been a particularly fruitful target for vulture funds, being ravaged by conflict but rich in natural resources. One of the earliest cases against the country came in 1996 when $ 30m worth of Congolese sovereign debt was purchased by Kensington International

2030:

Paul Singer is a Psychopath. This is not my opinion. He has all the characteristics of a psychopath (lack of empathy, lack of remorse, compulsive lying, failure to accept responsibility for actions, etc.). This is fact. Mr Singer's slimy little minions - I know you're reading this, so please sue me

3866:

And how pray tell is the opinion of Patricia Adams notable and the opinion of Greg Palast not? This is exactly what was done in numerous sources citing Palast which you disregarded. You can't simply hold one set of standards for material critical of Singer and another set of standards for material

3828:

and has every single issue pointed out in the critical sources I provided, plus more. He has also waited for this discussion to die down to re-add promotional material and continue to whitewash criticism, even though consensus has yet to be reached on previous edits. This is becoming rather sad at

2312:

Most of the sources you added for support are attack pieces from writers who are staunch opponents of Singer and investors, which brings their reliability on this topic into question. It is clear you are also a critic of Singer when you described him as an "extremely repulsive human being". Rather

1819:

Also, information regarding his recent spat with Samsung should be added. The conflict was extremely personal and depicted him as a vulture killing people in the Congo, while he accused them of anti-Semitism. That's a highly notable conflict, so I'll look into that more along with the high profile

1901:

The claim that "Brown had called the behaviour of Singer's Vulture Fund Elliott Management 'morally outrageous' with regards to their activities in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, which saw a lawsuit for over $ 1 billion of debt payments in the severely malnourished and war torn country" is

1621:

Providing Fujimori with his getaway vehicle has been widely reported, and there is another source reporting that, there's no opinion in that matter. Otherwise, the opinions of a notable person are relevant. Gordon Brown is a notable person, and he has criticised Singer, thus his opinion should be

283:"Singer gives to some politicians" grossly understates noteworthy RS. RS goes into more detail than the most-general of all possible generalizations. We have plenty of room under page size guidelines to offer our readers a bit more detail, a few more words, about the kinds of politicians favored. 1838:

make an edit on what to keep and what to remove? It seems he has been very objective in this and based on his user page, has a reputation for achieving neutrality. I'd rather get this conflict out of the way so we can focus on adding more content to the article and achieving a further balance of

3122:

Strongly support including, in the body of the article, referring to the subject of this article or Elliott Mgmt as "vulture" with in-text attribution and multiple reliable sourcing. For now oppose including in our article referring to the subject of this article or Elliott Mgmt as "vulture" in

2790:

and war torn country", which you added. This claim is not noted in the source you provided. I am not doing any "mental gymnastics". It is not our job to assume and add. A bold claim like this must be supported by multiple reliable sources before it can be added to a BLP and as of now, it isn't.

3288:

and further discussion of this takes away from being able to improve an extremely unbalanced article, focussing instead on satisfying the whims of one particular editor with a history of whitewashing anything negative about Singer. I move that we reach a speedy consensus on this one given that

2423:, "Argentina argued that the detention, used as leverage by NML to try and regain its money, was illegal and took the dispute to the Hamburg-based International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea. The body subsequently ruled in Argentina's favour, ordering the immediate release of the frigate." 2343:

At least some of the material added recently should stay; if Singer has attracted a significant number of opponents, that is a fact worth noting in the article. SegataSanshiro1, if you persist in voicing your own opinions here, people will naturally think you have an axe to grind. Stick to

2273:- they don't seem to be as notable or significant as the gay rights activism and it's really not unusual for people like singer to donate to a number of causes to boost their public image. It's written like a promotion at the moment, or to puff up the positive aspects to whitewash criticism. 3751:

won't oppose) which highlights numerous issues covered here, among others. This includes the EMP issue, comments on his demeanour from employees (including his former head trader alleging verbal abuse), his statements in investor letters, political donations and the Manhattan Institute.

2076:

Whoa, there. Let's focus on article content. Your proposed additions include some good ideas, let's work together to improve sourcing. May I remark that the sources seem to be from search engine results. Let's follow up with searches of newspaper and magazine archives and books. Thanks.

1445:

The search engine test does not apply here because the term "vulture" could be used to describe any subject within the article, not just Singer or Elliott Management because they happened to be mentioned. Of course this isn't always the case but I can guarantee there are a number of

1597:- Guys. Without commenting on the material in question, could we potentially avoid blanket revisions? I'm having a really tough time figuring out which content is considered objectionable, and I think people are reverting content changes that they're not actually opposed to. 94:

I have been in dispute with two other editors over the inclusion of content noting that Singer "has given millions of dollars to politicians who favor a strong military." Though the content is sourced, there is no reason to add only a select group to which he has donated to.

3337:

provided does not once mention that "It was also reported that Mitt Romney's financial disclosures showed a $ 1 million investment in in Elliot, while Singer also donated $ 1 million to his electoral campaign, whose campaign Singer donated to in 2012." Content is unsourced.

3848:. You'll notice it states, "If a news organization publishes an opinion piece in a blog, attribute the statement to the writer", which is exactly what I did. If we are going to add one side of the term "vulture" it is only fair to add the other side to prevent bias. Your 1522:

A vast amount of material was added sourced to Media Matters and Greg Palast. Neither reliable for BLP. Palast is not a BBC reporter, he is a freelancer and this is published by his own site with no editorial oversite. Great for reading about conspiracy theories though.

1860:- Thanks for the vote of confidence SegataSanshiro1, but I think we're going to be able to reach consensus on this issue. Why don't we give discussion a little more opportunity. I'm going Afk for the next 12 hrs but look forward to picking up this discussion tomorrow! 919:, I agree with NickCT in that it's not much of a solution to simply remove an entire piece of text without a proper consensus. Our end goal is a collection of information, not a blank page. Words can be replaced or left out entirely to make a sentence more neutral. 2188:

Article stating that the Congolese debt payment of $ 1 billion acquired by Singer was equivalent to the entire Red Cross budget for Africa in 2011, statements from Gordon Brown calling it "morally outrageous". The DRC also has among the worst food shortages in the

1399:" - This is infuriating. You asserted that RS's more frequently use "vulture" in relation to the company instead of Singer. I asked for evidence that that was the case. Instead of providing evidence you simply refuted what I present as evidence to the contrary. 3642:- With respect, I think you're overplaying this a little. The source goes directly from talking about Signer to talking about the 26 vultures. It seems self-evident that Elliot Management is one of the 26. Are you really arguing this isn't the case? Really? 968:

Then I totally agree it warrants a mention. Yes, I specifically made my comment in regards to the article's neutral tone. Mentioning a notable source or person having made a claim is perfectly valid; how much attention it should receive is described by

871:, both from and Singer and Argentina, because neither deserves to be included-especially in the lead. Argentina's POV uses the pejorative "vulture", which has already been discussed extensively on this talk page. Adding the term "vulture" violates BLP. 479:

It is preposterous that possibly negative information doesn't belong on a BLP. There are articles that solely criticize or ridicule their subjects through the use of reliable sources. You have no reason not to include this sourced piece apart from

1273:

The search engine test is not applicable in this situation. Just because "Paul Singer" or "Elliott Management" appear in an article which also includes the term "vulture" does not mean the term is being used in that instance to describe either

260:

Singer has sought to position himself as a GOP power player by backing candidates who agree with certain key stands: support for gay marriage and immigration reform, a hawkish foreign policy and opposition to a two-state solution in Israel and

2715:

Inc, a subsidiary of the well-established hedge fund Elliott Associates, headed by prominent vulture financier Paul Singer." The source is perfectly fine, though we could perhaps use a different part of it (instead of quote from Brown).

3207:"Singer has repeatedly been labeled a "vulture investor" by the emerging-market countries whose bonds he has bought and by development organizations such as Oxfam International that back forgiveness of poor countries' debt." - from 2008. 2062:. We are here to discuss content and improve the quality of the page while leaving emotion and opinions out. No, I do not have a conflict of interest in editing this page and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make those false accusations. 2734:- as far as I'm aware, this was the first time the term "vulture funds" was used and it was in reference to Elliott. Gordon Brown was UK prime minister and a prominent political figure for two decades, so all in all this is noteworthy. 414:

Why do you feel I am not representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources? I am just quoting/paraphrasing the NYT article and other

1983:

I actually hadn't seen this "unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous." so understand now, why everything is immediately removed on this page,

449:

How about: "Singer has given millions of dollars to politicians who favor a strong military and Israel." I won't include hawkish though I don't understand your objection. This specific information is not covered elsewhere in the

2375:

Yes, those quotes on here are my own opinions, hence why I include them in the talk page and not the article. I also think that, if analysed, Singer would also meet nearly all the requirements to be diagnosed as a psychopath, or

2874:

article?? The encyclopedia is not supposed to be a random collection of facts. (and by the way, it is perfectly appropriate for Meatsgains to comment, explain, and discuss his edits on the talk page. It is in fact expected and

3183:

the Congo. It's not just Singer being personally called a vulture, but also "distressed securities fund" being refereed to as vulture funds in anti-vulture laws passed in numerous countries, statements by the UN, OAS, etc.

2915:

That seems unlikely given the context and link to each edit under discussion. In fact, given the format established by Nick, this is precisely how I would expect any editor to respond to the discussion of individual edits.

2151:

Two part investigative article outlining how Singer has used lobbies and politicians in a campaign aimed at "painting Argentina as an increasingly rogue nation in bed with Washington’s enemies" and includes setting up the

2770:

As per the comments of the other two editors, you're doing a lot of mental gymnastics to try not to include this reference. The article mentions Singer, Elliott is one of the companies Brown was referring to and also the

914:

to be significant, or self-described (none of which appear to be the case). However, mentioning Singer's enormous contributions to some clearly specific political funds is a must. While it's important to avoid violationg

3797:

On my personal opinion, he is so closely identified with his firm that information about the firm's doings is relevant here. This is not often the case, but it is for this investment firm , which he personally operates.

3123:

Knowledge voice or in the lede. Body 1st please, recommend we hold off on discussing the lede for now and circle back to the lede later. I could be convinced by multiple rs to support WP voice and inclusion in the lede.

3257:

I feel that you're clutching at straws now, I don't think many would make that distinction. Would having "has been described as a vulture in conjunction with a variety of different nouns by his opponents" be agreeable?

2400:

May I suggest, I think it is clear that RS is sufficient to support subsections within "Sovereign debt" for the Congo, Peru, and Argentina to accommodate fair coverage of the subject's commitment to this business plan.

2993:

issue is a little one sided, so it might also be worth highlighting some of the other things the organisation does, other than ignore evidence of global warming, much like you ignore evidence of Singer's wrongdoing.

1335:

Again, I'd like to reiterate, "vulture" is describing the activities of the company in sovereign debt cases, not Singer personally. This is a BLP and the content would be better placed on Elliott Management's page.

2057:

Again, you've made your opinions of Singer very clear and you are not helping your case on getting the contentious material back on the page. This talk page is not for slamming the subject, please take a look at

1113:

Rather than take jabs at me like that, lets focus on the content. I did misread the RfC and I apologize for my comment that the final descision was "to leave it off the page". I was incorrect in saying that.

1937:

The improperly referenced material (media matters) can not be added, we must find another (reliable) source to include such. The rest of the material is clearly contentious and requires a consensus to add.

3279:

The debate on whether the term vulture should be used in this article has been discussed here and was discussed a year ago, where there was a weak consensus to keep the term in the article. Despite this,

986:

If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Knowledge, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article.

656:

Read further up in this thread. I am not the only one opposing its inclusion. I will not remove the content because I don't want to be accused of edit warring but a consensus should really be met first.

3105:. So, to sum up, the use of "vulture fund" is so ubiquitous it should be included. If he is, in fact, the "inventor" of "vulture funds" as the body says, then that fact should be included in the lede. 3372:

there's plenty of watchdogs looking into donations and the investments of prominent Republicans. Mitt Romney disclosed his finances before the 2012 election, so it will have been published elsewhere.

3599:" - What?!?! It describes payments going to the "26 vultures" as morally outrageous. The 26 vultures of which Elliot Managements was one. As I'd said, the wording has to be changed to some like - 165:

There is no reason to narrow the focus of Singer's donations to just "politicians who favor a strong military". Singer, as a top political donor, has given to countless political causes including

1416:" - It's fine that you think that, but many people think the actions of his company reflect on him as evidenced by all the RS that use his name in relation to the "vulture" characterization. 3141:

I am a little confused. You "disagree" with the edit removing "vulture" as a descriptor, but "for now" want to remove "vulture" as a descriptor. I read this as supporting the current edit

2438:

Please show me where in the source provided it states that the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea "deemed it illegal". The quote you referenced above specifically notes that "

3042:- The pejorative "vulture" describes the actions of his company, Elliott Management. It is an inappropriate attack and it would be better placed on the company page, not Singer's BLP. 430:

The term "Hawkish" is POV and does not belong on a BLP. Yes, the claim was published in reliable sources but the content is already covered throughout the page. Inclusion would place

326:

Meatsgains, the article mentions Singer's support for gay marriage. I don't understand why you don't want to include Singer's support for a hawkish foreign policy agenda and Israel.

2537:

Well, those that are agreed upon are agreed upon. Some aren't, and are in fact disagreed upon. Editors are encouraged to act on agreement and discuss disagreement in a new section.

1239: 2893:

Comment, explain & discuss is fine -- but "agree" in bold gives the impression that the person performing the edit and the person making the comment are two separate people.

1203:

was involved in are notable (and already covered) but adding a description of the investors as "vultures" is an attack. Again, this is a BLP and including the statement violates

1638:, that seems reasonable to me. It is best to highlight specific parts considered troublesome, and then work from there as I have outlined with the "philanthropy" section above. 2591:- Poor sourcing. Media matters isn't a great source. Climate change denial doesn't seem to be a large part of what Singer does, so giving it that much prominence seems undue. 736:

Support inclusion of financial support for strong military and Israel. Support inclusion of venue, US court. Support inclusion of Argentinian POV on debt claims for balance.

341:

Including the claim is redundant and already touched upon throughout the article. The entire Political activities section accurately covers Singer's political contributions.

1244: 3095:

as to the edit removing the language calling Singer a "vulture" in wikipedia's voice. The ref's support "vulture fund" inventor, "vulture fund" manager, etc. As far as him

1450:

this takes place. When sources describe Singer as a "vulture", they are referring to the activities of Elliott Management. Describing investors as "vultures" also violates

1745:

Agreed but the sources SegataSanshiro1 added did not explicitly describe Singer as a "vulture" and as discussed earlier, that content should not be included in the lead.

1409:- The specific line you're citing deals with racial epithets. I don't think "vulture" deals with race or ethnicity. Unless of course Singer comes from a line of vultures. 910:"vulture" is not of itself necessary, true. It would be necessary if it can be linked to a proper article describing the term, put into quotation marks and verified by a 465:

Singer has given to a mix of groups, not just politicians who favor a strong military and Israel. His political contributions are already covered throughout the article.

210:

Mr. Singer is a self-described conservative libertarian who has given millions of dollars to Republican organizations that emphasize a strong military and support Israel.

3099:

being a "vulture" the only ref (Observer) that talks about the personalization of that descriptor is strongly criticizing it; refering to the usage as something out of

3946:, I had found some sources stating that the Government of Ghana sued Singer after the illegal ship impounding. I will try and find them again to add into the article. 3903:

The information I removed was not supported in the sources provided, the information I restored is sourced to reliable sources, and I removed POV. What is the issue?

3228: 3918: 2421: 3284:

has continued to ignore that discussion and this one, removing any reference to the widely-used and widely-referenced term. I think this is simply a case of

2956:, seems like an important part of his life. Would also put emphasis on not being concerned about global warming, since he doesn't seem to believe it exists. 1664:"His opinion should be included"? Why? Can you cite specific policy for why it should be included rather than assuming "his opinions are notable." Thanks 1622:

included. Palast is a well known journalist, and his opinions are also notable - especially considering the vast amount of stories he has done on Singer.

1727:). As mentioned in sections above, if enough RS's point out that you've been called a vulture, it's notable and hence OK to include in a qualified way. 614:

Contentious material should be removed from the page until a consensus is met. If the consensus is to add it back, then we can restore it to the page.

1546:

from his own personal site, this has been clearly stated. His opinion is noteworthy, as is his criticism of Singer - which has been clearly marked as

3621:

I'd have to respectfully disagree and argue that the source does not explicitly state Elliott Management or Singer and inclusion would be synthesis.

1368: 81: 76: 71: 59: 3759: 3757: 3755: 3753: 936:

is definitely correct that explicitly calling Singer a vulture (i.e. calling him a vulture in an unattributed way) would be pretty grossly against

889:

Actually, if you're going to remove both POV's, I'd probably just remove the entire paragraph. Mentioning the recent case in the lead is probably

305:

involve page length, but rather, inclusion of selective and unnecessary details. Anyone can read the article to be informed on his contributions.

1568:"Opinions" and "claims" from a Singer critic sourced to an independent freelancer website... I have trouble seeing how this is notable/reliable. 1366: 635:- You are the only person arguing against the material in question. Please cease removing it. This is bordering on tendentious editing behavior. 3725:

Yes, the first sentence is unsourced and should not be restored. The second sentence may need another RS for verification if it is to be added.

1423:- So I take that you think using the term "vulture" would make us fall afoul of the "primarily to disparage or threaten its subject" portion of 995:

following the rules, engaging in discussion and following consensus whereas those who are actively reverting new inclusions insist on honoring

267: 2666:- Content removed could be reworked to make it a little more neutrally phrased, but the quote from Gordon Brown is relevant and well sourced. 363:. The political activities section is a good overview of his views/contributions/activity. The sentence in question seems redundant and has a 3048:-- and let's try this a little more emphatically: Meatsgains, it is disingenuous to say that you "agree" with an action you have performed. 151:

May I respectfully make a suggestion, spend a few minutes with those three sources and suggest an alternative summarization of them. Thanks.

1696:

here's the Korean Times independently confirming what Palast says, including the attack on asbestos victims, which should be included ASAP.

3313:- There are two sentenced removed for sourcing concerns. I'm not seeing good sourcing for the first sentence, but the second seems OK. 3355:

To first part. "$ 1 million etc..." fails verification. The second part about supporting libertarian causes is fine and ref'd to NYT.

1874:

Sure thing. Well I re-inserted my edits, with the exception of the Palast statements, which seem to be the focus of the objections by

3852:

did not improve the quality of the page. If you have an issue with specific edits, address it here. Each of my edits were necessary.

886:

Hmmmmm.... I didn't realize you'd removed both POV's. That's probably OK. Though I think I'd support both descriptions being left in.

2149: 1909:

Lastly, "Singer told the Financial Times that he firmly believes that the world will end from an electromagnetic pulse" falls under

96: 3917:

The problem is that you appear to have made no effort to find a source for what you deleted. A source for the ship seizure bit is

3602: 3243:"Vulture" and "vulture investor" are two different descriptions. The proposed generalized claim should not be added to the lead. 1025:, which notes that "if something is found in an article about a person using a pejorative term... it shall be promptly removed." 982:

If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;

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Elliott Managment's name is more often associated to "vulture" than Singer's in reliable sources. Yes, the sovereign debt cases

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Hey Guys, so relating to my comments yesterday, rather than do blanket reverts, I'd like to examine the series of reverts from

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Brown used the term "morally outrageous" to describe the behavior of creditors, including Singer's Elliot Management, to the

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this violates - "if something is found in an article about a person using a pejorative term... it shall be promptly removed."

2234: 47: 17: 3438: 1447: 1372: 235:...his other advocacy agenda: the Middle East, and a hawkish foreign policy agenda he funds through an array of think tanks. 2558:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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where there was also very dubious interpretation of sources, as I pointed out at the bottom of the "recent edits" section.

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seems to have a pretty clear pro-Singer bias. Not sure why. The only requirement for this kind of information is that it's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I'm not going to argue that search engine testing is perfect. But it's better than what you have........ which is nothing.

837:- Sorry. Not sure which edit we were talking about. Moving this discussing to the appropriate section you started below. 2853:

I have restored this one. Meatsgains, it's odd (to say the least) to indicate that you "agree" with your own reverts.

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negative opinions or information about Singer, whilst leaving self-promotional statements referenced from his websites.

2506: 242: 3144:"for now", until strong RS inline refs support the descriptor and the material is in the body of the article, yes? 1990:

rather than using an encyclopaedia to do his PR for him. I'll be waiting, keyboard at my side for that glorious day.

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Citing an essay is not a great way to influence discussions here -- particularly if other editors disagree with you.

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I agree -- it's one of the main items that gives rise to coverage in high-quality sources, over a sustained period.

3926: 3694:" - So to be clear, you're only saying the first sentence is unsourced, right? That second sentence removed is OK? 3053: 2898: 2858: 2720: 2461: 2428: 2349: 1724:). It's not OK to use "vulture" in an unqualified way. That said, I'm not sure I agree with Meat's later edit (see 1356: 1300: 1076: 959: 896:

Regardless, both me an Nom put that material there. You should get consensus here before unilaterally removing it.

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alone in the interests of neutrality. Please do not whitewash criticism of Singer from high profile journalists.

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submitted and closed last year regarding use of the pejorative with the final decision to leave it off the page.

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I have taken almost all of my recent edits to the talk page to discuss and reach consensus. I'm not partaking in

2219: 543:. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. 3285: 1000: 99:

reports that he has donated to a "mix of groups", not just politicians who favor a strong military and Israel.

3605:, which saw a lawsuit for over $ 1 billion of debt payments in the severely malnourished and war torn country. 2008:" above. Perhaps that suggests removing/refactoring over-the-top opinions as to the subject's character? .... 3885:

the quote from Patricia Adams. Rather than revert, let's discuss in specific, what you have an issue with in

2822:- This factoid needs better sourcing, but Singer's EMP beliefs have been reported in multiple mainstream RS. 2386:, if you also believe that some of the edits are too strongly worded, then please feel free to tone it down. 2344:

high-quality sources, and try to use neutral/descriptive language regarding the way he has been criticised.

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Thanks for avoiding the blanket revisions guys. For the record, I strongly support the first couple edits by

3988: 3714: 3556: 3479: 3360: 3149: 3110: 3079: 2921: 2884: 2705: 2629: 2013: 1943: 1528: 1021:, I just have an issue with using the negative term "vulture". It is an attack, is derogatory, and violates 3646: 3205: 2236:

same journalist describing a legal case where Singer sought to deny compensation to dying asbestos workers

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as policy. If we allow the pejorative "vulture" to be included, we run the risk of opening up the page to

1008: 924: 741: 707: 584: 553: 529: 510:. Meats continuously makes the argument that negative information about Singer is somehow "not relevant". 489: 2608:- Unrelaible source with no strong connection between Singer and climate change denial, its speculation. 539:. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – 3943: 3922: 3049: 2894: 2854: 2716: 2457: 2424: 2383: 2345: 2190: 1711: 1352: 1296: 1208: 1087: 1072: 1018: 955: 809: 695: 372: 3070:

for Meatsgains to comment, explain, and discuss his edits on the talk page. It is in fact expected and

1096:- Hahaha.... I don't know what Meats is smoking, but I know I want some. I hope he has enough to share. 2031:

for defamation (as you do everyone and everything who stands in your way) so I can prove it in court.

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doesn't mean we have to scrub all potentially negative information about a person from their article.

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If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;

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My point exaxtly. And it's definitely unusual how much attention has been spent on keeping this page

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concerns aren't really relevant here. As long as the statement is qualified, it can go in the lead.

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manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects, and in some circumstances

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Your deletion includes three well-formatted, noteworthy, reliable source references including the

3921:. I have to pop out now; if no-one has implemented the edit by the time I get back I'll do it. 3845: 3744: 3710: 3552: 3475: 3410: 3356: 3145: 3106: 3075: 2975: 2917: 2880: 2701: 2625: 2009: 1939: 1895: 1592: 1524: 1314: 1256: 1154: 1136: 455: 420: 389: 331: 116: 2974:

Your continued attempts to bring up global warming on Singer's BLP are unwarranted and would be

1236:" - You simply going to assert that, or provide evidence? Here's the simple search engine test: 1234:

Elliott Managment's name is more often associated to "vulture" than Singer's in reliable sources

1427:? Really??? This page obviously is not primarily here to criticize Singer. You seem to think 867:

It seems other users and I are having some issues with the lead on Singer's page. I decided to

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Foley, Stephen (June 17, 2014). "Paul Singer: Argentina's nemesis is a tenacious tactician".

1462:." Do you really think these companies or investors would describe themselves as "vultures"? 3699: 3654: 3611: 3522: 3318: 3030: 2827: 2671: 2596: 2542: 1910: 1865: 1736: 1602: 1436: 1264: 1183: 1144: 1104: 945: 901: 842: 715: 679: 640: 605: 570: 565:- Indeed indeed. I think we've reached consensus for inclusion of the material in question. 535:

In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and

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integrating significant viewpoints from reliable sources with the related material as per

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The contentious material needs to remain off the page until consensus is reached. Thanks,

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prevent us from including anything potentially negative about an individual. It does not.

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We can revisit this summarization as we approach maximum page size guidelines. Thank you.

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Where does the article mention Singer's support for a hawkish foreign policy and Israel?

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Pretty much, but also trying to add POV through that opinion piece is a bit silly. FYI

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and belongs on the company page under the sovereign debt section, not on Singer's BLP.

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Most sources come from reliable organisations and newspapers, whilst a few related to

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No, he's a high profile journalist and a long-time critic of Singer. Though these are

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I can find another source if you like, but frankly, your protesting is more akin to

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I too would interested to hear how Meats arrives at his interpretation of that RfC.

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one-by-one, b/c I think some of them were probably appropriate and others weren't.

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Try reading both sentences. "The body subsequently ruled in Argentina's favour."

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Again, the source you provided is an opinion piece and does not confirm anything.

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in which it states the numerous laws violated through the detention of the ship.

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that do not mention Singer when Elliott Management is described as a "vulture".

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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to the lead before adding it back. This was discussed earlier on the talk page.

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find more sources and include some of the other things the organisation does.

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Well, I can start by gathering some sources and then see what to do with them:

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as it is a miscellaneous fact. Not sure how that content improves the article.

749: 691: 600:- Ok. I restored. I'll restore any removal which is not discussed here first. 299: 284: 222: 152: 138: 122: 2487:"ruled in Argentina's favor" not "deemed it illegal", isn't that borderline 3800: 3664:

and even then, it would be better placed on the company page, not a BLP.

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I restored the previous version as it reflects what sources state but I

2004:

As a note, BLP policy applies to talk pages as well. See your addition "

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activities of the company in sovereign debt cases, not Singer personally

1211:. It would be appropriate on the company's page not his personal page. 3824:

views this as an appropriate source since I removed it earlier as per

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as policy, we can use the essay as a reference and advice. I did cite

3517:- Use of term "jammed" is simply not encyclopedic. Not good English. 2756:

because the information added is not explicitly noted in the source.

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with the revert, I'd appreciate it! Let's work towards consensus.

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consensus was already reached a year ago with this exact matter.

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vulture fund in perusing the debt payment Brown is referring to.

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section. If anyone wishes to collaborate, then please feel free.

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even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it

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Singer Chris Christie and the Republican Governors Association:

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Rather than these back and forth reversions, can I suggest that

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The same claim was added in two different areas in the article:

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There's a four-part Bloomberg feature (a source which I'm sure

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If you look at the reverts below and briefly state whether you

1795:. The fact that he's been called a vulture by numerous people 25: 399:

That claim alone is POV and does not deserve to be on a BLP.

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I never made this edit, probably one of Singer's PR people.

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The issue isn't whether Gordon Brown is notable, but rather

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The quotation is describing payouts, not Elliott Management

3021:- This has been so widely reported by so many sources that 1003:. Anyhow, it's good we're actively discussing the changes. 3439:"Pensiongate? Christie Campaign Donors Won Huge Contracts" 3066:

Again, more emphatically, it is perfectly appropriate per

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The search engine test is not applicable in this situation

999:. I wonder if a lot of this reluctance just comes down to 218:"GOP Pro–Gay Marriage Funder's Other Agenda: Bombing Iran" 2221:

threats made to journalist and long-time critic of Singer

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Ah the wikilove, of course haha. Anyways, the content is

779:. I will remove the recent addition, as it is redundant. 2505:

Or try reading the official statement from the tribunal

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another investment banker calling his behaviour immoral

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We agree, we cannot cherry-pick sources. Here we have:

3709:I, for one, agree with you on the second sentence. 2442:that the detention...was illegal..." not the ITLS. 193:"Hedge Fund Chiefs, With Cash, Join Political Fray" 537:BLPs should simply document what these sources say 2870:This is an important bit of material to put in a 1460:what the subjects have published about themselves 1135:- We only take jabs at you cause we feel so much 3989:Why Argentina's Rulers and Cronies Are Fair Game 1277:I stated earlier in this thread the portion of 528:. Anyhow, Singer currently seems to fall under 2700:This looks like a violation of WP:SYNTHESIS. 1251:Could you be specific about which portion of 548:This should take away much of the confusion. 8: 3227:Greenpeace can be added to the list of NGOs 2420:Passaged restored per the following source: 2839:- Doesn't this "factoid" read like trivia? 1986: 1894:The "Climate change denial" subsection is 1255:you feel is violated? And I don't see how 3980: 1454:in that "Articles should document in a 191:Thomas Jr., Landon (January 25, 2007). 816:, making it 3:4...hardly a consensus. 678:- Oh.... I'm sorry, there was you and 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1916:Let's get other users' input on your 1518:Unreliable sourced material additions 1365:There are certainly reliable sources 7: 2554:The following discussion is closed. 2470:This is quite similar to this edit 1820:case against the asbestos workers. 241:Blumenthal, Paul (April 23, 2014). 1240:"Elliott Management" vulture - 507 1039:This is a BLP, please be mindful. 24: 3844:I'd like for you to read through 3409:Palast, Greg (October 17, 2012). 3387:A profile of a few hunder words: 4002:The discussion above is closed. 3603:Democratic Republic of the Congo 3474:Palast and Fang are unreliable. 29: 3411:"Mitt Romney's Bailout Bonanza" 276:Singer is staunchly pro-Israel. 3534:- "Jammed" is unencyclopedic. 2156:designed to smear teh country. 579:...and it was reverted again. 216:Clifton, Eli (April 7, 2014). 18:Talk:Paul Singer (businessman) 1: 2547:03:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC) 2518:04:10, 1 September 2015 (UTC) 2501:01:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC) 2154:American Task Force Argentina 1245:"Paul Singer" vulture - 1,110 2978:. Let's stay on topic here. 744:are determinative here, not 3974:17:56, 16 August 2015 (UTC) 3956:15:03, 15 August 2015 (UTC) 3931:18:25, 14 August 2015 (UTC) 3913:17:00, 14 August 2015 (UTC) 3899:16:57, 14 August 2015 (UTC) 3877:15:49, 14 August 2015 (UTC) 3862:14:31, 14 August 2015 (UTC) 3839:13:38, 14 August 2015 (UTC) 3405:More on Singer and Romney: 3299:18:37, 16 August 2015 (UTC) 2483:17:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC) 2466:17:12, 31 August 2015 (UTC) 2452:16:51, 31 August 2015 (UTC) 2433:15:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC) 4021: 3810:22:40, 9 August 2015 (UTC) 3784:18:40, 7 August 2015 (UTC) 3770:18:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC) 3735:15:42, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3719:15:38, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3704:15:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3674:14:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC) 3659:15:58, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3631:15:42, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3616:15:14, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3578:13:02, 6 August 2015 (UTC) 3561:15:37, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3544:14:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3527:13:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3498:18:01, 7 August 2015 (UTC) 3484:14:39, 7 August 2015 (UTC) 3467:05:30, 7 August 2015 (UTC) 3382:13:01, 6 August 2015 (UTC) 3365:15:37, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3348:14:29, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3323:13:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3268:20:32, 9 August 2015 (UTC) 3253:17:54, 9 August 2015 (UTC) 3239:04:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC) 3223:18:36, 7 August 2015 (UTC) 3193:12:59, 6 August 2015 (UTC) 3169:17:26, 5 August 2015 (UTC) 3159:Sorry if I was not clear. 3154:17:08, 5 August 2015 (UTC) 3133:15:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC) 3115:15:59, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3084:15:32, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3074:to be discouraged at all. 3058:14:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3035:13:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 3003:16:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC) 2988:14:28, 6 August 2015 (UTC) 2966:12:54, 6 August 2015 (UTC) 2949:15:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC) 2926:16:04, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 2903:15:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 2889:15:29, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 2863:14:33, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 2849:14:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 2832:13:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 2800:13:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC) 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147:04:41, 3 April 2015 (UTC) 109:02:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC) 4004:Please do not modify it. 2556:Please do not modify it. 814:"isn't consensus for it" 444:02:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC) 863:Recent activity to lead 171:libertarian politicians 3649:than rational debate. 988: 545: 1712:User:Nomoskedasticity 980: 533: 42:of past discussions. 3692:Content is unsourced 2879:to be discouraged.) 2378:corporate psychopath 90:Political activities 3584:Threaded Discussion 3370:Find another source 1800:be included as per 1309:Rather than citing 1053:Also, there was an 498:Think I agree with 3437:(March 18, 2014). 2557: 1201:Elliott Management 812:stated that there 117:The New York Times 3987:Adams, Patricia, 3820:I'm not sure how 3286:WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT 2623:Agree with revert 2555: 2099:Lack of criticism 2006:and its talk page 1005:Bataaf van Oranje 1001:WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT 934:Bataaf van Oranje 921:Bataaf van Oranje 869:remove both POV's 684:Bataaf van Oranje 581:Bataaf van Oranje 563:Bataaf van Oranje 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Thanks again. 1989: 1988: 1918:recent additions 1859: 1797:should certainly 1765: 1596: 1464:I don't think so 1394: 1353:Nomoskedasticity 1297:Nomoskedasticity 1259:really applies. 1231: 1198: 1177: 1134: 1095: 1088:Nomoskedasticity 1073:Nomoskedasticity 956:Nomoskedasticity 836: 810:Nomoskedasticity 808: 696:Nomoskedasticity 677: 655: 634: 599: 303: 278: 263: 257: 255: 237: 232: 230: 212: 207: 205: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4020: 4019: 4015: 4014: 4013: 4011: 4010: 4009: 4008: 4007: 4000: 3999: 3995:, June 30, 2014 3993:Huffington Post 3986: 3982: 3966:SegataSanshiro1 3948:SegataSanshiro1 3869:SegataSanshiro1 3831:SegataSanshiro1 3822:user:Meatsgains 3818: 3762:SegataSanshiro1 3683: 3647:battlegrounding 3635: 3588: 3586: 3570:SegataSanshiro1 3511: 3490:SegataSanshiro1 3449: 3447: 3433: 3421: 3419: 3408: 3394:Financial Times 3390: 3374:SegataSanshiro1 3307: 3291:SegataSanshiro1 3260:SegataSanshiro1 3231:SegataSanshiro1 3215:SegataSanshiro1 3185:SegataSanshiro1 3015: 2995:SegataSanshiro1 2958:SegataSanshiro1 2837:Partially agree 2816: 2777:SegataSanshiro1 2736:SegataSanshiro1 2660: 2643:SegataSanshiro1 2585: 2565:User:Meatsgains 2560: 2551: 2550: 2549: 2532: 2510:SegataSanshiro1 2475:SegataSanshiro1 2418: 2388:SegataSanshiro1 2288:SegataSanshiro1 2252:SegataSanshiro1 2106:SegataSanshiro1 2101: 2033:SegataSanshiro1 1992:SegataSanshiro1 1985: 1970:SegataSanshiro1 1880:SegataSanshiro1 1856:SegataSanshiro1 1853: 1841:SegataSanshiro1 1822:SegataSanshiro1 1806:SegataSanshiro1 1802:WP:common sense 1762:SegataSanshiro1 1759: 1698:SegataSanshiro1 1640:SegataSanshiro1 1589:SegataSanshiro1 1582: 1552:SegataSanshiro1 1520: 1388: 1225: 1192: 1171: 1128: 1085: 991:Frankly, I see 865: 830: 802: 742:WP:PUBLICFIGURE 708:WP:BATTLEGROUND 671: 649: 628: 593: 530:WP:PUBLICFIGURE 297: 272:Washington Post 266: 253: 251: 248:Huffington Post 240: 228: 226: 215: 203: 201: 190: 92: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4018: 4016: 4001: 3998: 3997: 3979: 3978: 3977: 3976: 3940: 3939: 3938: 3937: 3936: 3935: 3934: 3933: 3901: 3850:mass reversion 3817: 3814: 3813: 3812: 3791: 3790: 3789: 3788: 3787: 3786: 3738: 3737: 3722: 3721: 3681: 3680: 3679: 3678: 3677: 3676: 3643: 3585: 3582: 3581: 3580: 3563: 3546: 3529: 3510: 3506: 3505: 3504: 3503: 3502: 3501: 3500: 3385: 3384: 3367: 3350: 3325: 3306: 3302: 3277: 3276: 3275: 3274: 3273: 3272: 3271: 3270: 3225: 3201:More sources: 3196: 3195: 3176: 3175: 3174: 3173: 3172: 3171: 3136: 3135: 3117: 3089: 3088: 3087: 3086: 3061: 3060: 3043: 3037: 3014: 3009: 3008: 3007: 3006: 3005: 2990: 2969: 2968: 2951: 2933: 2932: 2931: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2908: 2907: 2906: 2905: 2865: 2851: 2834: 2815: 2810: 2809: 2808: 2807: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2803: 2802: 2747: 2746: 2729: 2728: 2727: 2695: 2678: 2659: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2636: 2620: 2603: 2584: 2580: 2561: 2552: 2536: 2535: 2534: 2533: 2531: 2528: 2527: 2526: 2525: 2524: 2523: 2522: 2521: 2520: 2485: 2417: 2414: 2365: 2364: 2363: 2362: 2361: 2360: 2359: 2358: 2357: 2356: 2332: 2331: 2330: 2329: 2328: 2327: 2326: 2325: 2303: 2302: 2301: 2300: 2299: 2298: 2279: 2278: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2274: 2265: 2264: 2263: 2262: 2242: 2241: 2240: 2239: 2238: 2237: 2227: 2226: 2225: 2224: 2223: 2222: 2212: 2211: 2210: 2209: 2208: 2207: 2197: 2196: 2195: 2194: 2193: 2192: 2179: 2178: 2177: 2176: 2175: 2174: 2162: 2161: 2160: 2159: 2158: 2157: 2142: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2100: 2097: 2096: 2095: 2094: 2093: 2092: 2091: 2090: 2089: 2074: 2048: 2047: 2046: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2023: 2022: 2021: 2020: 1963: 1962: 1961: 1960: 1959: 1958: 1957: 1956: 1955: 1954: 1953: 1952: 1951: 1950: 1921: 1914: 1907: 1899: 1789: 1788: 1787: 1786: 1785: 1784: 1783: 1782: 1781: 1780: 1779: 1778: 1757: 1708: 1683: 1682: 1681: 1680: 1679: 1678: 1677: 1676: 1655: 1654: 1653: 1652: 1651: 1650: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1614: 1613: 1612: 1611: 1610: 1609: 1563: 1562: 1519: 1516: 1515: 1514: 1513: 1512: 1511: 1510: 1509: 1508: 1507: 1506: 1505: 1504: 1503: 1502: 1501: 1500: 1499: 1498: 1497: 1496: 1495: 1494: 1493: 1492: 1491: 1490: 1489: 1488: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1484: 1483: 1482: 1481: 1480: 1479: 1478: 1417: 1410: 1403: 1400: 1333: 1275: 1249: 1248: 1247: 1242: 1209:WP:COATRACKING 1097: 1051: 1037: 1019:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 997:the status quo 989: 985: 983: 978: 966: 908: 894: 887: 864: 861: 860: 859: 858: 857: 856: 855: 854: 853: 852: 851: 850: 849: 769: 768: 767: 766: 765: 764: 763: 762: 761: 760: 734: 733: 732: 731: 730: 729: 728: 727: 726: 725: 724: 723: 722: 546: 447: 446: 412: 411: 382: 381: 380: 379: 367:tone. Thanks. 354: 353: 324: 323: 322: 321: 320: 319: 318: 317: 281: 280: 279: 264: 238: 213: 198:New York Times 149: 91: 88: 85: 84: 79: 74: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4017: 4005: 3994: 3990: 3984: 3981: 3975: 3971: 3967: 3963: 3960: 3959: 3958: 3957: 3953: 3949: 3945: 3932: 3928: 3924: 3920: 3916: 3915: 3914: 3910: 3906: 3902: 3900: 3896: 3892: 3888: 3884: 3880: 3879: 3878: 3874: 3870: 3865: 3864: 3863: 3859: 3855: 3851: 3847: 3843: 3842: 3841: 3840: 3836: 3832: 3829:this point. 3827: 3823: 3815: 3811: 3807: 3803: 3802: 3796: 3793: 3792: 3785: 3781: 3777: 3773: 3772: 3771: 3767: 3763: 3760: 3758: 3756: 3754: 3750: 3746: 3745:Capitalismojo 3742: 3741: 3740: 3739: 3736: 3732: 3728: 3724: 3723: 3720: 3716: 3712: 3711:Capitalismojo 3708: 3707: 3706: 3705: 3701: 3697: 3693: 3687: 3675: 3671: 3667: 3662: 3661: 3660: 3656: 3652: 3648: 3644: 3639: 3634: 3633: 3632: 3628: 3624: 3620: 3619: 3618: 3617: 3613: 3609: 3606: 3604: 3598: 3592: 3583: 3579: 3575: 3571: 3567: 3564: 3562: 3558: 3554: 3553:Capitalismojo 3550: 3547: 3545: 3541: 3537: 3533: 3530: 3528: 3524: 3520: 3516: 3513: 3512: 3509: 3507: 3499: 3495: 3491: 3487: 3486: 3485: 3481: 3477: 3476:Capitalismojo 3473: 3472: 3471: 3470: 3469: 3468: 3464: 3460: 3456: 3446: 3445: 3440: 3436: 3431: 3428: 3418: 3417: 3412: 3406: 3403: 3401: 3396: 3395: 3388: 3383: 3379: 3375: 3371: 3368: 3366: 3362: 3358: 3357:Capitalismojo 3354: 3351: 3349: 3345: 3341: 3336: 3334: 3329: 3326: 3324: 3320: 3316: 3312: 3311:Partial Agree 3309: 3308: 3305: 3303: 3301: 3300: 3296: 3292: 3287: 3283: 3269: 3265: 3261: 3256: 3255: 3254: 3250: 3246: 3242: 3241: 3240: 3236: 3232: 3229: 3226: 3224: 3220: 3216: 3212: 3210: 3209:New York Post 3206: 3204: 3200: 3199: 3198: 3197: 3194: 3190: 3186: 3181: 3178: 3177: 3170: 3166: 3162: 3157: 3156: 3155: 3151: 3147: 3146:Capitalismojo 3143: 3140: 3139: 3138: 3137: 3134: 3130: 3126: 3121: 3118: 3116: 3112: 3108: 3107:Capitalismojo 3104: 3103: 3098: 3094: 3091: 3090: 3085: 3081: 3077: 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2080: 2075: 2073: 2069: 2065: 2061: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2053: 2052: 2051: 2050: 2049: 2042: 2038: 2034: 2029: 2028: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2024: 2019: 2015: 2011: 2010:Capitalismojo 2007: 2003: 2002: 2001: 1997: 1993: 1982: 1981: 1980: 1979: 1975: 1971: 1967: 1949: 1945: 1941: 1940:Capitalismojo 1936: 1935: 1934: 1930: 1926: 1922: 1919: 1915: 1912: 1908: 1905: 1900: 1897: 1893: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1885: 1881: 1877: 1873: 1872: 1871: 1867: 1863: 1857: 1852: 1851: 1850: 1846: 1842: 1837: 1833: 1832: 1831: 1827: 1823: 1818: 1817: 1816: 1815: 1811: 1807: 1803: 1798: 1794: 1777: 1773: 1769: 1763: 1758: 1756: 1752: 1748: 1744: 1743: 1742: 1738: 1734: 1730: 1726: 1723: 1720: 1717: 1713: 1709: 1707: 1703: 1699: 1695: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1690: 1689: 1688: 1687: 1686: 1685: 1684: 1675: 1671: 1667: 1663: 1662: 1661: 1660: 1659: 1658: 1657: 1656: 1649: 1645: 1641: 1637: 1634: 1633: 1632: 1631: 1630: 1629: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1617: 1616: 1615: 1608: 1604: 1600: 1594: 1593:Capitalismojo 1590: 1586: 1581: 1580: 1579: 1575: 1571: 1567: 1566: 1565: 1564: 1561: 1557: 1553: 1549: 1545: 1541: 1537: 1536: 1535: 1534: 1530: 1526: 1525:Capitalismojo 1517: 1477: 1473: 1469: 1465: 1461: 1457: 1453: 1449: 1444: 1443: 1442: 1438: 1434: 1430: 1426: 1422: 1418: 1415: 1411: 1408: 1404: 1401: 1398: 1392: 1387: 1386: 1385: 1381: 1377: 1373: 1371: 1369: 1367: 1364: 1363: 1362: 1358: 1354: 1351:in my view. 1349: 1348: 1347: 1343: 1339: 1334: 1332: 1328: 1324: 1320: 1316: 1312: 1308: 1307: 1306: 1302: 1298: 1294: 1293: 1292: 1288: 1284: 1280: 1276: 1272: 1271: 1270: 1266: 1262: 1258: 1254: 1250: 1246: 1243: 1241: 1238: 1237: 1235: 1229: 1224: 1223: 1222: 1218: 1214: 1210: 1206: 1202: 1196: 1191: 1190: 1189: 1185: 1181: 1175: 1170: 1169: 1168: 1164: 1160: 1156: 1152: 1151: 1150: 1146: 1142: 1139:for you bro. 1138: 1132: 1127: 1126: 1125: 1121: 1117: 1112: 1111: 1110: 1106: 1102: 1098: 1093: 1089: 1084: 1083: 1082: 1078: 1074: 1070: 1069: 1068: 1064: 1060: 1056: 1052: 1050: 1046: 1042: 1038: 1036: 1032: 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Thank you. 747: 746:WP:DONTLIKEIT 743: 739: 735: 721: 717: 713: 709: 705: 701: 697: 693: 689: 685: 681: 675: 670: 669: 668: 664: 660: 653: 648: 647: 646: 642: 638: 632: 627: 626: 625: 621: 617: 613: 612: 611: 607: 603: 597: 592: 591: 590: 586: 582: 578: 577: 576: 572: 568: 564: 561: 560: 559: 555: 551: 547: 544: 542: 538: 531: 527: 523: 522: 521: 517: 513: 509: 505: 501: 497: 496: 495: 491: 487: 483: 482:WP:DONTLIKEIT 478: 477: 476: 472: 468: 464: 463: 462: 461: 457: 453: 445: 441: 437: 433: 429: 428: 427: 426: 422: 418: 410: 406: 402: 398: 397: 396: 395: 391: 387: 378: 374: 370: 366: 362: 359:I agree with 358: 357: 356: 355: 352: 348: 344: 340: 339: 338: 337: 333: 329: 316: 312: 308: 301: 296: 295: 294: 290: 286: 282: 277: 273: 269: 265: 262: 250: 249: 244: 239: 236: 225: 224: 219: 214: 211: 200: 199: 194: 189: 188: 186: 185: 184: 180: 176: 172: 168: 164: 163: 162: 158: 154: 150: 148: 144: 140: 136: 132: 128: 125: 124: 119: 118: 113: 112: 111: 110: 106: 102: 98: 89: 83: 80: 78: 75: 73: 70: 67: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 4003: 3992: 3983: 3941: 3819: 3816:Recent edits 3799: 3794: 3691: 3682: 3600: 3596: 3587: 3565: 3548: 3531: 3514: 3457: 3448:. 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