Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 28

1595:

Italy. July 7, 2004. He said "What intrigued me in Prem Rawat’s message is that he speaks of the possibility for every person of finding within themselves a peace, a happiness, that is not dependent on circumstances. Peace, he says, is within, and can be felt; we just have forgotten how to get in touch with it” Levine's comment could be balanced by Marc Galanter's experience of a DLM ashram , Galanter's a Professor of Psychiatry and Director of the Division of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse at the New York University Medical Center. He says - The atmosphere in the ashram was indeed quite striking. The intense communality of the members was immediately apparent, a quality that's clearly an important aspect of the group's function. One could sense a closeness among those present, and an absence of the minor tensions that would be expected in a setting where two dozen people were living in tight quarters. A college dormitory, a military barracks, or a summer camp soon weal a certain amount of hostile banter or argument. These appeared to be absent in the ashram. Caring and intimacy, reflective of the group's cohesiveness, seemed to mute any expression of animosity. There were kind words, offers of food, expressions of interest, and warm smiles, all from people I'd never met before. Any question was soon answered, sometimes even anticipated. Having been invited by one of their members and defined temporarily as one of their own, I was made to feel as if I were entering a supportive envelope, to be protected from the rough edges of relationships in the outside world".

2972:

his followers. Price’s description of the Indian DLM as being a ‘Hindu sect’ is at odds with evidence of Galanter and others that Hans Rawat was associated with Rhadosami and Sant Mat, movements which are equally close to Sikhism as to Hinduism. Price also appears to be the original source for the statement repeated by later authors that “In 1969 the new leader, Guru Maharaj Ji, sent one of his mahatmas, or a 'realised soul', to Britain as a missionary to win converts for his master.” Price later undermines this statement by acknowledging that at the time Prem Rawat’s mother was“in fact was the organizing force”. Price is also wrong in two respects regarding the legal status of the UK Divine Light Mission where it is suggested that Rawat’s mother held a position on the Registered Charity as ‘regent for her son’, Charity trustees have always held the position in their own right and if Rawat’s mother was indeed a trustee there was no question of her exercising that role in anything other than her own right. Price also refers to DUO as an alternative organisation to DLM, in fact no legal structure called DUO existed in Britain although various Rawat connected businesses carried the name. In all other respects Price’s work stands with Foss & Larkin as the sole body of contemporary in depth research into the Rawat movement.

1408:] .Resolutions, proclamations - Governors of Michigan and New Mexico. General Assembly of the State of Connecticut; Court of Common Council, Hartford, Connecticut; Pennsylvania House of Representatives; Rhode Island General Assembly; Wisconsin Legislature. Mayors of Boston, Massachusetts; Los Angeles, California; Buffalo, New York; Boulder, Colorado; Miami, Florida; San Francisco, California. House Majority Leader, Portland, Maine. Keys to cities = New York City, New York; New Orleans, Louisiana; Oakland, California; Kyoto, Japan; Detroit, Michigan; Miami Beach, Florida; Miami, Florida. “Illustrious Citizen,” Quito, Ecuador. Letters of appreciation and honors = City of Atlanta, Georgia; United States Library of Congress; National Geographic Society; Vermont Historical Society; “Ambassador for Peace,” International University of Peace, Brazil. Special honors given by government officials = Los Angeles, California; Portland, Oregon; Denver, Colorado. Award for Best Television Program 2004 and 2006: Brazilian Association of Community Television Channels for Words of Peace, a weekly series featuring excerpts from Prem Rawat's message of peace. 2552:“DLM (which is not called DLM anymore, although the name is retained here for the sake of comprehensibility) has changed enormously during the 80's from what it was during the late 70's. It has still retained many of its old hard core members, but these now tend to live a "normal" life. Since there are no meetings, or special communal activities, old members do not meet very much. New people are still being initiated into the meditation techniques - according to what by the present author considers a reliable source of information, 7,000 in the West and 14,000 in India (within the fraction loyal to Maharaj Ji) were initiated during 1986. This sounds large, but since there is no formal organization, it is impossible to estimate how many of these actually practise meditation regularly. DLM has, as a matter of fact, almost changed into what Bainbridge & Stark (1978) calls a client cult, with clients or customers rather than followers. The new people it attracts are predominantly middle-aged, and not young, as was the case in the 70's.” 2784:

were rich in metaphors were more concerned with practical applications than with penetrating theory, yet his satsangs could always be understood against a background of Hindu tradition. But the satsangs that his son held in the west, which he managed with a minimum of Hindu terms and concepts, still remain vague for the non-Hindu listener. The young Guru explains that conceptual thinking, translated with the English word “mind” in German translations also, is the main enemy of direct religious experience. It is therefore hardly surprising that little firm information about DLM teachings can be obtained from his followers. On the other hand, the lack of professed concepts allows them a freedom of expression which is spontaneous and personal, and which makes an agreeable contrast with the unexamined reproduction of received teachings which one especially finds in the devotees of Iskcon. Whatever judgment one may have about the movement, its intellectual lack of contours is clear to all observers."

2560:

effort, the rituals being the same fundamentals as introduced in 1971. Björkqvist overstates the case when stating: “In 1976, Maharaj Ji declared that he felt that the organization had come between his devotees and himself, and he disposed of the headquarters altogether.” While there was some reduction in staffing the Denver headquarters was maintained, further Rawat simply did not have the power to act alone and it is misleading to not acknowledge the role of officials such as Mishler (who Björkqvist identifies elsewhere) and Dettmers. Björkqvist gives a date of 1980 for closure of the ashrams and associated changes, and also claims the Divine Light Mission as an organisation was abolished; in fact the ashram closures occurred in 1982 and 1983 while with the exception of the UK Divine Light Mission which was closed in 1995, all other DLM organisations were simply renamed Élan Vital, over a period of ten years.

2922:'For over two and a half years until they had the Alexandra Palace programme it was a very strong movement. In that time I imagine 5,000 to have joined and there must have been nearly a thousand full-time workers for the mission. It was completely incredible; it had a staff of a medium to large size company and was doing amazing things. Everyone was completely inexperienced and then after that there was nothing to do. Everyone was saying: well, what are we doing? Why are we here? We've got all this set up; we could build a bridge across the Thames; we could do anything - I mean there was just nothing to do. It was just literally - there were all these people with nothing to do, all set up, all geared up to, you know, spread the knowledge, to build this, to build that, but there was nothing to do. It has grown too quickly and the expansion didn't really have a foundation." 2666:“The study was conducted on the outskirts of Orlando, Florida, at a national festival held by the Divine Light Mission, one of the conclaves regularly organized to allow members the opportunity for personal contact, or darshan, with the guru. A field had been rented for the weeklong event. Events there showed how the group's cohesiveness could be mobilized as a potent social force and how nonmembers could be excluded. The atmosphere of belonging was pervasive, as some 5,000 young adults gathered to make preparations. They interacted in a congenial and open manner, even when they had struck up acquaintance only moments before. To say the least, this was not an impersonal work site. It represented a network of people who hastened to assist each other and sought ways to further their common cause of making the festival a shared experience, something valuable to all.” 1748:] site so I wouldn't get such a biased opinion until I read several other articles/sites concerning this man. The zealotry exhibited in defending this individual speaks volumes about the cultish aspect of this man and his followers. While I've always viewed Knowledge as evolving and getting better all the time with it's policies I now have to doubt how useful these policies are if they are only used as tools against outsiders by Knowledge's main editors. The very fact that this article is now locked is enough to convince me that Knowledge has sunken to what it so vehemently denied attaining to - a cheap publicity tool and akin to a tabloid. My faith in transparency and openess on the web is deeply shaken and I will think long and hard before I begin any research here in the future. - Sean Henderson - Not a Wiki Member... Just a (former) user. 2707:

illicit intoxicants in the UC, and relatively less openness to transcendental altered consciousness, which is an integral part of DLM meditation. Data from persons registered for UC recruitment workshops corroborated retrospective reports of the long-standing members. Changes in the consumption of tranquilizers were also considered. Data on caffeine consumption reflected less strict commitment to controls over this agent. The decline in drug use was considered in relation to feelings of social cohesiveness toward fellow group members, which was a significant predictor of change in drug use in multiple regression analysis. The findings are examined in relation to the interplay between behavioral norms in a close-knit subculture and the role of its beliefs and values in determining levels of drug use.

2913:“Data on membership have been obtained from the total sample of active premies on the mission's records which were compiled in the years 1975 and 1976. Out of the 2,050 who declared that they were prepared to donate 10% of their incomes to the mission, 642 filled the mission's questionnaire on education, occupational skills, age, year of receiving knowledge and other items. My own questionnaire, put out to premies at a London programme in January 1978 elicited 177 replies from the 500 forms issued, but the results tally very well with the mission's data and the information from each source corroborates the other. In addition personal observation and over thirty tape recorded interviews over the past three years have provided further evidence for the statements which are made.” 940:":Well sourced, Andries, means, among other things, unbiased. None of your miserable Dutch Protestants, no Catholics or Lutherans, no Buddhists even. No members of competing theologies. No hysterical tabloids. Their views are predictable and unencyclopedic." Oh. O.K. Sri Rumiton Ji. Then, obviously, no opinions should be expressed which come from current premies since their views are predictable and unencyclopedic, or somehow it just doesn't work that way? How about no opinions from sociologists of religion who have accepted cash or other valuable consideration from the Church of $ cientology or the Unification Church because THEIR views are invariably predictable and unencyclopedic? You three always include those guys, in whatever article, for some reason. 3046:“In confirmation with Juergensmeyer's contention that Guru Maharaji's father was associated with one of the Radhasoami sects, I was informed personally in July of 1978 at Sawan Ashram, Old Delhi, India, by Bhagwan Gyaniji (who was a disciple of Sawan Singh and personal secretary to Kirpal Singh) that Balyogeshwar's father was indeed initiated by Sawan Singh of the Radhasoami Satsang Beas and later branched off to start his own movement. It also appears that Balyogeshwar's father was a disciple of another Sant mat guru named Sarupanand, who worked in the tradition of Sri Paramahans Advait Mat --a surat shabd yoga lineage apparently connected to Shiv Dayal Singh which was founded in the latter part of the 19th century and is now centered in Guna. 837:

Jossi referred to are by the same author Robert Mendick and typical tabloid beat ups. The first one is headed "Cult leader gives cash to Lord Mayor Appeal". This headline is contradicted in the first paragraph of the article. Firstly Rawat is described as a "former" cult leader and then we are told that Rawat is "involved in raising funds". It is obvious the Rawat is not handing over $ 25,000 in "cash" but "gives cash" sounds more like a drug deal than "giving a donation". In the second article Mendick's headline is "Guru followers asked to target Gandhi party". In fact, it was a charity event where the public were invited to buy tickets and to which The Prem Rawat Foundation had donated 10,000 pounds and encouraged people to support.

2290:

about Jossi Fresco, a follower of Rawat (and an employer of his organisation) editing the wikipedia article and wikipedia policy. In fact, entry should be made in the article about wikipedia, Rawat and Jossi Fresco. Secondly, Jimmy Wales editing his own page was inclusion worthy in wikipedia not because he is the founder of wikipedia. It is inclusion worthy because it was reported in media and it was about him. You personal judgement about important of Jimmy Wales is irrelevant even if it is plain obvious. Newspaper article about an Aid of U.S. congressman editing wikipedia is inclusion worthy so as an employer of a guru editing wikipedia article, IMO.

2679:“This episode of altered consciousness was not very different from many in the literature on religious conversion, but was nonetheless difficult to explain from a psychiatric perspective. Raymond's vision of the halo might be construed as a hallucinatory experience in conventional psychiatric terms, and thereby ascribed to causes of perceptual change such as a dissociative reaction, transient psychosis, or even mass hysteria. But his history, his behavior, and his demeanor as we spoke gave no hint of such a diagnosis. This "vision" also fit in nicely with his later experiences in meditation, and could not be dismissed as an isolated phenomenon. 1627:

get riled again and post a general diatribe against "cults" and the pros would respond in kind once more. An application for Good Article at that time was declined when the article was described as "bloated and unencyclopedic." That was mild, it really looked almost schizophrenic. I think David D's suggestion for a reliable secondary source to summarize both the praise and criticism is the way to go, and in fact that is what has been attempted. But reliable sources generally do not make the sort of extreme statements that might satisfy the extreme people on both sides of the fence. Will that lead to another Register article?

1044:

criticisms from anyone not affiliated with the man in question. Are there similar limitations on the pages for Jesus, or Muhammad, or any other major religious leader? "Sorry, can't edit this, you're not a member of this faith and we're trying to keep it 'encyclopedic!' " BTW, there's a big link at the top of this discussion page that says "Be welcoming." Criticizing people for not having a username to sign isn't exactly friendly. Some of us have been turned off from joining Knowledge by just the kind of insider gamesmanship exhibited by you and many of the other Usual Suspects on this article and throughout the site.

1116:. Van der Lans wrote that Maharaji is an example of a guru who has become a charlatan leading a double life. On the one hand, he tried to remain loyal to the role in which he was forced and to the expectations of his students, yet on the other hand, his private life was one of idleness and pleasure, which was only known to small circle of insiders. According to van der Lans, one could consider him either a fraud or a victim of his surroundings. In 1986 van der Lans reported that compared to the educational level of the general Dutch population, high academic levels are overrepresented in Rawat's students 2987:

competing sub-cultural systems of meaning. Religious movements, in turn, react to a pluralist situation in different ways, even though they may share certain orientations toward directly experiencing the sacred and are critical of certain trends of modernity. Cultic movements, as pluralistically legitimate, are more comfortable in a secularized environment than are the more dogmatic sects. Sectarian movements, as epistemologically authoritarian, find it harder to live in a society with competing religious and secular meaning systems which are neither "pure" nor "true."

2868:

from the bank. The down payment was nearly $ 18,000, with no serious chance of generating it even in donations. The owner of the plane eventually put up the money himself, to satisfy the bank, because he "liked Guru Maharaj Ji." That is not a common reason for such unbusinesslike behavior. The owner of DLM's national headquarters building has repeatedly paid for extensive alterations to the building as activities burgeoned, though he ostensibly has no relation to the Mission other than landlord. To devotees these are miracle stories, and there are hundreds of them.

3028:

Mission has been constrained by continued doctrinal precariousness, the unique locus of its leadership authority, and continued problems of generating and sustaining consistent commitment among its membership. These characteristics are identical to those which reportedly have constrained Spiritualism, Dianetics, New Thought, and other religious movements. And like those movements, the Divine Light Mission presently remains caught in the tenuous position between cultism and sectarianism in its development and decline as a youth culture religion.

612:

The article is nothing but an advertisement for Rawatism. Every direct or indirect reference to Rawat, his so-called "Knowledge" or other, superior methods of "meditation" available on the market, which you three deem might take business away from Rawat's enterprise is systematically deleted, isn't it? Even a documented quotation that beneficial results attributed to Transcendental Meditation as a result of experimentation could not necessarily be expected from other meditation techniques was deleted, without discussion, by one of you three.

213:

dishonest, but my contributions to wikipedia have to be assessed not on the basis of my appalling crimes, rather, whether they make sense and are informative. I know very well the ex-premie sites are antagonistic towards Mr Ji and that nothing must ever be published that calls into question his good name and the multiple money-collecting organisations run in his name. This is an important piece of international law, with which every article in wikipedia must comply with as at present, under pain of persecution from the latter-day

2750:

the practical liturgy of the singing of arti became a rare event, Rawat and his followers took the position that arti had never represented any expression of belief, but had merely been a meaningless ritual inherited from the Indian organisation. This revisionist position is called into question not only by Haan but respectively by the work of Dupertuis, Juergensmeyer and Rife who all note the relationship between Rawat’s teaching and the Radhasoami and Sant Mat philosophies, which involve emotional attachment to a guru.

2683:

of the sect to explain the puzzling event. From that point, Raymond's relationship with the Divine Light Mission followed with seeming inevitability, and served as a basis for his understanding of his own role in life. This experience had many counterparts in my interviews with other members of the Divine Light Mission, as it became clear that altered consciousness in the form of inexplicable perceptions and transcendent emotional states was common in their conversion and subsequent religious experience.”

217:. Your contributions will be mercilessly deleted by a handful of premies whose spiritual path has led them to be the guardians of the premie-controlled pages in wikipedia. All I can say is to repeat something once said by a little known British leader some while ago, a man called Winston Churchill. He said: "Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never, Never, Never, Never give up. 2813:

of Kirpal Singh. Kirpal Singh had followed his own master, Sawan Singh, in linking the first phrase in Guru Nanak's morning prayer, "eckankar," to the highest level of spiritual consciousness. Twitchell followed suit and made it the name of his movement. The teachings of the Divine Light Mission, led by the boy guru Maharaj-ji, are essentially those of Radhasoami as well, and other spiritual leaders of the time were also influenced by Radhasoami teachings .pp 206-207

2317:

These editors are rabid defenders of this guy. What really concerns me is the fact that if you type Prem Rawat into Google, the first 3 out of 4 articles are concerned with helping people get out of his organization and explaining what a sham this guy is. Reading this wikipedia article, you would never have guessed that the group was a cult. This wikipedia article has failed due to the biased view of the editors who have taken the guru's rep under their wing.

2608:

is examined. Devotees use meditative means to recognize charisma in the guru considered as the formless Absolute, as himself, and as a "presence" generated within the community of followers. The aim on all three levels is ecstatic merging of a separate sense of self with the Absolute . It is conjectured that once Westerners learned this they no longer felt need of the guru. The discussion calls for further research on social components of mystical practices.

31: 483:

Universe." The fact that he made such claims, and then later backed off from them without any explanation or apology, is a much much more logical conclusion re why he's been criticized. It's a well-documented fact -- that Rawat claimed to be the Perfect Master, Lord of the Universe, who encouraged followers to surrender everything to him as their object of devotion. It's inexcusable to leave this historical fact out of the article.

2643:

implementation. Left between a reality they rejected and one that could not be implemented, ex-movement participants experienced life as arbitrary and senseless. Guru Maharaj Ji was deified as the mirror of an incomprehensible, meaningless universe. The Divine Light Mission stripped its followers of all notions of causality while simultaneously subsuming and repudiating both conventional and movement interpretations of reality.

2197:

edit wikipedia article about guru. Would Wales avoided embarrassment if he asked his aids to do it for him instead? I remember that some U.S. congressmen tried to do something similar and was promptly outed by media. The Register is a verified site and the article is clearly about Jossi Fresco, Knowledge and Prem Rawat. Deletion of verified fact is a policy violation, IMO.

2583:

ideology. In this article we do not criticize Downton's theory, although we think it problematic to identify as many stages as he did. We only want to point out that Downton's group of respondents differs in at least one important way from Divine Light Mission members we have interviewed, and that this difference has some important theoretical implications.

1792:), however there was also an edit war erupting. In a few days when the storm blows over, the page will be unprotected so that those who are seriously interested in editing can do so unrestricted. Until then, keep discussing the article, and when there is general agreement for a specific wording change, ask an admin to make the change using the 3014:

a step toward the enhancement of the spiritual path to God-realization. The "Guru Puja Festival," also held in July of that year, marked the first public meeting for the American membership. This initial stage of organizational development involved a growing definition of membership, esprit de corps, and lifestyles for ashram premies.

581:

Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability". Could someone, even Wowest, please remove this violation.

2703:

cooperation with the sects' leadership. Data which bear directly on changes in drug use are reported here. Members of the Divine Light Mission (DLM), many of whom had been involved in the "counterculture" of the early 1970s, reported incidence of drug use prior to joining which was much above that of a nonmember comparison group.

2829:“It is reported that the "Divine Light Mission" of the boy guru, Shri Sant Ji Maharaji , is derived from Radhasoami teachings and the Radhasoami community. According to some accounts, the father of the present boy guru had been a follower of one of the Radhasoami branches, but split off from them to start his own following. 2958:

than twelve months now, the national publication which carried letters from premies, often extremely critical of other premies and the head office, (but never of Maharaj Ji), has not been printed. Instead premies receive an exclusive diet of full transcripts of Maharaj Ji's satsang at various festivals across the world.

1317:'s article history, and that included sourcing from religious scholars. The redirect's edit summary showed "Revert according to Wiki policy on verifiability/foreign language sources" as a reason for essentially deletion, but there is no policy against foreign language sources, and the sources can be easily verified. 2897:

attitudes concerning the existence of end form of organization. Nevertheless it does not follow that the leader has determine events and is frequently having to respond to situations which he could not have deliberately planned. This is particularly the case where the mission's financial problems are concerned.

2222:(I don't hang around there much, so I'm not really sure what the discussions have been with regards to what's suitable for inclusion), but that there is controversy around a subject's Knowledge article is not something that needs to be included in the subject's Knowledge article (otherwise, infinite loop). 3007:

interpretation of the religious experience. Rather, the emerging belief system consisted of a loosely-bound set of precarious cultic beliefs and practices which only later were formalized into a simplified version of Vedanta closely approximating the classical hindu non-dualist philosophical position.

2957:

At the same time the stress on the community premie, which had led to what was now viewed as excessive democratization, which was strongly repudiated by Maharaj Ji at Frankfurt, has now been controlled by the simple device of blocking public communication channels upwards to the head office. For more

2936:

Once Maharaj Ji became the de facto head of the mission, various factors, which must include his own inexperience and lack of long-term policy and his anxiety not to become a puppet of his officials, led to a gradual slowing down of recruitment, a falling away of active support and an almost complete

2871:

Grace operates at all levels. Devotees are agreed that anyone who decides to go to India, for instance, will come up with the money to go; and devotees report finding hundreds of dollars in kitchen drawers, being approached by strangers and offered unsolicited motley, and other bizarre tales of money

2867:

Divine Light Mission operates almost entirely without capital, and this is the source of great numbers of "grace" stories. In 1972, for example, the Mission wanted to buy a small plane to transport Guru Maharaj Ji and his family around the United States. They had negotiated a price and secured a loan

2835:

With the emergence of Balyogeshwar (alias Guru Maharaji), the mission came to the attention of the general public in India and North America. The movement had its biggest impact in the early 1970's when it attracted thousands of devotees. The initial growth, however, has since subsided, and the group

2812:

Radhasoami teachings were also introduced to Westerners indirectly, through groups that utilized Radhasoami ideas but presented them under their own banner. The Eckankar movement, for example, borrowed directly from the writings of Radhasoami teachers, and its founder, Paul Twitchell, was an initiate

2776:

Guru der Armen<< verstanden und sich in einer bilderreichen Sprache mehr um praktische Anwendbarkeit als um theoretische Durchdringung bemüht, so blieb doch der Inhalt seiner Satsangs auf dem Hintergrund der Hinduistischen Tradition klar verständlich. Die Satsangs jedoch, die der Sohn im Westen

2749:

Haan’s contention that the central beliefs are all to be found within the ‘arti’ song is undoubtedly correct, though it is important to note that neither Prem Rawat nor his supporting organisations have ever produced a comprehensive codification of those beliefs separate to the song. When after 1983,

2289:

My use of the term "verified" is crude reference to Verification principle. Didn't this principle mean that source reference must come from entity with proper editorial oversight, such as academic journal or media, which The Register is one? Secondly, the article is not just about Jossi Fresco. It is

1741:

Wow. I am stunned. I have been the staunchest of defenders for Knowledge, and the founding ideas of it, since the beginning. Although I am not a logged in member and the breadth of my contributions were humble corrections to spelling and grammer mistakes I have been an avid user, active promoter and,

1043:

You ask for "neutral and encyclopedic" on one hand while demanding "None of your miserable Dutch Protestants, no Catholics or Lutherans, no Buddhists even. No members of competing theologies" at the same time? "Encyclopedic" by definition means "comprehensive," i.e. the opposite of refusing to allow

1024:

are other examples, as is mention of the purchase of a Boeing 707 for his international travel. These were all examples of criticism by reputable sources. The statement that at one stage "Rawat continued to teach the techniques of Knowledge and affirmed his own status as a master rather than a divine

811:

I am completely neutral here... I'm not bothered with editing the article... but, where in the 2 policies you reference does it say that tabloids are not viable sources? It seems that you are making a link between it being a tabloid and it being unreliable, but I think that's pushing your opinion not

596:

Well wikipedia policy seems to be if there is significant criticism, in this case the accusations of cult, then they should be mentioned. Guarding an article by deleting all criticism is not policy at wikipedia. Certainly one can discuss how much criticism should be mentioned but it cannot be none.

427:

Momento - why do you continue to revert changes to this article? They are cited and well-documented. Additionally the warning to stop reverting posted on your talk page was removed by you as "vandalism." Knowledge suggests that those that are involved with an organization not edit articles related to

399:

much of it is refuted by other sources. When two different sources disagree over someone it is controversy. When controversy occurs to this extent, but is not indicated in an article about the subject on wikipedia (particularly if it is due to the edits of a someone associated with the subject) it is

351:

In fact, I think for a person to represent an organisation denounced in that way and have no indication of it at all in their biography is just not right. The extent of media and published criticism of his organisation is extensive, but there is no indication of it at all in his biography. May I ask

239:

Rumiton, your comment in it's current form can easily be seen as a personal attack. You should not make personal attacks anywhere in Knowledge. Comment on content, not on the contributor. That's the policy. The site being referred to describes itself as an information resource covering Prem Rawat and

183:

User IP 76.102.196.148, you are an anonymous, unregistered user. This article is the only one you have ever edited. You have shown a dishonest approach by describing the website you tried to link to as a “website about Prem Rawat and his work.” I suspect you know very well that site is an unmoderated

133:

Since Prem Rawat is controversial a criticism section feels relevant. This criticism section has been deleted or removed several times without comments by Momento and/or others. A previous article called "Criticism of Prem Rawat " has also been deleted. It has also been noted that an external link to

3013:

By July of 1972, the first national conference of DLM leaders took place, and guidelines were laid down which specified certain rules and regulations for U.S. ashrams. DLM officials note that this led to an initial departure of followers who viewed ashram life more as an economic convenience than as

2999:

Like some of its youth culture counterparts, the Divine Light Mission movement experienced rapid growth from its inception in the United States in 1971. By the summer of 1974, the American movement had grown to a total of 27 ashrams which housed over 1200 of an estimated 50,000 members or "premies."

2964:

In the case of DLM, confusion over organizational goals and lack of firm leadership control at the intermediate and grass root levels, combined with a following who are being pulled in one direction after another without structural channels of two-way communication, all lead to confusion and lack of

2790:

Hummel’s assertion that Hans Rawat saw himself as “the Guru of the Poor” appears unsupported although it could reasonably be concluded as being the case based on the Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj. Certainly Hummel if correct, is identifying a fundamental difference in philosophy between father and

2682:

I was left with a tale told by a perceptive and lucid observer who described a phenomenon that did not fit into my handbook of diagnoses. Nonetheless, the experience had clearly served as a basis for the attribution of a new meaning to his life. It set him off balance and he turned to the philosophy

2354:

4. Article was reviewed by user:Vassyana who stated that the frequent use of opposing scholarly quotes did not yield a good article. He proposed a new editing principle that only scholarly views deemed as controversial by contributors that were supported by at least two scholarly sources could stay

2316:

Yeah, I got here through Digg. Started tinkering with the article by adding two extremely relevant links and a photo of Prem's mansion. I was obliterated within minutes and warned by jossi that I was going to get banned after a slew of absurd "verifiable" arguments which held absolutely no water.

2236:

As for Wales, it's obviously more notable when the Knowledge God King edits his own article against Knowledge guidelines than it is when somebody else does it. Moreover, there was no evidence - or even allegation - in the Register article that Rawat had anything to do with Jossi's edits. Reversion

2000:

Search "Criticism of" and you'll find that in all of Wiki less than 10 living people have a personal "Criticism of" article. Remove the politicians and you have Bill O'Reilly, Noam Chomsky, Sylvia Browne and Prem Rawat. "Criticism of" article are a way of getting around Wiki's BLP and NPOV policies.

1885:

How hilarious that you are all hurt and surprised that people come here to criticise. Get real. What many are actually critical of is your twisting of the article to suit your POV! The way you put it, it sounds as if you are suffering some sort of seige mentality..as if you feel the world out there

1662:

This article currently reads as if no-one in the world doubts Rawat's methods or techniques, and is thus in major need of balancing criticism. I agree that David D.'s post is a good starting point - this should be fully fleshed out until it is acceptable to both sides of the debate. Criticism cannot

836:

Tabloids can be viable sources for some articles but in Biographies of Living People "Knowledge aims to be a reputable encyclopedia, not a tabloid. Our articles must not serve primarily to mock or disparage their subjects, whether directly or indirectly.". The Evening Standard articles that Anon and

611:

Excuse me, Mr. Momento, sir. The quotation was inserted by Philippe, not me, then deleted by you as an alleged violation of BLP and your deletion reversed by me, since it clearly was not a violation of BLP. The passage in question merely reflects the credibility of the article itself, which is zero.

580:

My interest is in following Wiki policy. Wowest has now inserted The Register comment about Knowledge into this article despite BLP saying - "Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association.

376:

Firstly, this is an article about Prem Rawat, not Divine Light Mission. Secondly, it is not an opinion published by a Government body, it is an opinion expressed by a congressman reported in a paper. Thirdly, it is 28 years old. And fourthly, you would do well to read the extensive discussions about

2943:

At the conference in Frankfurt in November I976, Maharaj Ji had announced that the International Headquarters were dissolved and that henceforth he would guide the mission, with his brother, Raja Ji, as his ambassador. In fact what had occurred was the removal from power of his closest adviser, who

2928:

Festivals often reach a peak of mindless fervour some might associate with a Nazi rally. At the festival held in Wembley in 1977 a 'seeker' drawn towards the idea of receiving 'knowledge' told me she was completely put off by the way in which Maharaj Ji could manipulate his audience. She saw him to

2706:

Reported levels were considerably lower after joining, and the decline was maintained over an average membership of 2 years. Unification Church (UC) members showed a similar pattern but their drug use began at a somewhat lower level and declined further still; this reflects a stricter stance toward

2642:

analyse the basis of Guru Maharaj Ji's appeal to ex-movement participants in the early 1970s. The youth movement of the 1960s had generated a reinterpretation of reality that called into question conventional reality. When the movement declined, the movement reinterpretation had no possibility for

2607:

This paper examines the recognition of charisma as an active conscious social process involving the confirmation of belief through non cognitive methods of altering perception. In the illustrative case of Sant Mat / Radhasoami / Divine Light Mission tradition the Hindu concept and ritual of darshan

981:

Oh. So only Hindu scholars count? Actually, he suffers from several major faults: (1) He is promoting a group of relatively harmful "meditation" techniques which have no real utility except as part of a "cult mind-control" package (2) He has a history of talking out of both sides of his mouth about

899:

Actually to be more specific - we shouldn't be using the people you describe as a source, we should find a source we can agree on as being reputable expressing the views of these people. It is the fact that a non-minority of people are critical or Rawat that must be included; rather than using this

3020:

The distribution of power and authority in the movement in the early 1970s was officially and symbolically based upon the somewhat ambiguous charismatic appeal of guru Maharaj Ji. Many "rank and file" followers were uncertain about his position in the whole organizational scheme of the movement as

2971:

Price does introduce certain errors some of which have been repeated uncorrected elsewhere. The date of formation of the Divine Light Mission in India is given as 1930, in fact it was 1960, and rather than being the sole creation of Hans Rawat as Price suggests, it was an initiative of a number of

2965:

desire to recruit new members. What is surprising is not that the mission is no longer expanding significantly, but that it manages to survive at all. This answer to the second issue must lie in the mission's continued ability to satisfy fundamental psychological and social needs of its adherents.

2559:

Björkqvist does introduce a number of factual errors. The claim that in 1974 “He disposed of many Hindu traditions” is contradicted by the author elsewhere in the article, and as suggested by Price writing in 1978, a ritualised approach to a followers life was still at the heart of organisational

2545:

In the present paper, Wallis's (1984) conceptual framework will be analysed in some detail . Goal displacement, a concept utilized by Gross and Etzioni (1985, pp. 9-27) for describing change within non-religious organizations, economical as well as political, will also be introduced and adopted in

1626:

Seems to me nothing being discussed here is new. This article has long been a focus for strong emotions. About a year ago there were editors who didn't like Prem Rawat adding things they found on the Internet, and then people who did like him would add something like the above, and the antis would

1447:

PS. I'm not really thinking these honors should be included. I just want to illustrate the point that there are two sides to every story. People seemed to be outraged that followers of Rawat might edit this article. The fact that people who hate Rawat might edit is fine. I believe the best article

869:

Well sourced, Andries, means, among other things, unbiased. None of your miserable Dutch Protestants, no Catholics or Lutherans, no Buddhists even. No members of competing theologies. No hysterical tabloids. Their views are predictable and unencyclopedic. It makes sense if you think about it. (For

482:

The above speculation that criticism of Rawat stems from his being "a famous religious figure at a young age" and being Indian is unsupported and defies logic. It's far far more reasonable to conclude that the criticism stems from his explicit claims (from a young age) that he was the "Lord of the

336:

and acknowledge the reliability of the Washington Post when they report "Guru Maharaj Ji's Divine Light Mission were singled out at the hearing as cults that employ manipulative techniques and turn children against their parents." This was the Maryland House of Delegates! I know it happened a long

2842:

The most striking parallel between the Divine Light Mission and the Radhasoami Tradition concerns their teachings on the "Divine Word," the inner-spiritual melody. Both groups employ meditational techniques for initiates to concentrate their attention on this current of "light and sound" which is

2783:

Neither in the time of the father, Shri Hans, nor in that of the son, did the Divine Light Mission possess a systematically developed set of teachings. Both saw as presenting more problems than advantages. Although the father saw himself primarily as the Guru of the Poor, and his discourses that

2779:

mind<< bezeichnet wird, als Hauptfeind der unmittelbaren religösen Erfahrung. So ist es nicht verwunderlich, daβ von seinen Anhängern nur wenig Handfestes über die DLM-lehre zu erfahren ist. Andererseits eröffent ihnen der Mangel an vorgegebenen Konzepten einen Freiraum für Äuβerungen einer

2614:

Guru Maharaj Ji modified Radhasoami theology by identifying himself with great masters of all religions. Thus not only did he hint that he had been Krishna and Ram and Buddha, but among others, Christ and Mohammed as well. (In this he followed a common neo-Hindu practice of trying to universalize

2196:

Anyway, here is a defense to my edit. The wikipedia article about the founder of this site, Jimmy Wales, included a section which refers to an incident when Wales tried to edit his own wikipedia biography. What is so different if a mainstream media outlet mention that followers of a guru tries to

655:

Thank you David. There isn't any serious criticism. What criticism there is comes from three sources - An anti Rawat ex-followers group, four or five fundamentalist Christian scholars such as Kranenborg & J. Gordon Melton from the 70s and tabloid beat ups from the 70s. This is one of the most

212:

User IP 76.102.196.148, you are an anonymous, unregistered user, just like me. This article is one of many that I have edited, but since my ISP changes my IP address from time to time, it just seems I am only editing articles relating to Mr Ji's operations at the moment. I am sometimes incredibly

1594:

I think it would be unbalanced to include Kent's view of Rawat without including another first hand viewpoint. How about Emilio Colombo, former Prime Minister of Italy and former President of the European Parliament, European Parliament. Parliament Conference Hall of the Italian Parliament, Rome

1298:

You won't find alien sightings, Lancaster Bombers on the Moon or hamster eating escapades in the Standard, nor will you find the "titillating claims about people's lives". Momento's arguments against the Standard's headline ""Cult leader gives cash to Lord Mayor Appeal" is incredibly weak. I'm

1247:

As to the argument that this article is about Prem Rawat, not about the Divine Light Mission is extraordinarily silly; it's like saying that criticism of Hitler in his article should be muted because it's about Hitler, not the Holocaust (and yes, I just became the first person in the argument to

1019:

Would you mind logging in with a user name? It is hard having a conversation with a number. I agree that "we should find a source we can agree on as being reputable expressing the views of these people." That is what we have tried to do. The statement that "Rawat was seen by some as immature and

3027:

In summary, the development of the DLM in America has largely substantiated Wallis' contention that cults are inherently fragile social institutions which are constrained from effective institutionalization by internal factors. Developing within a pluralist social environment, the Divine Light

2986:

American pluralism has different implications for different types of youth culture movements. Environmental responses to the emergence of religious movements are the result of the prevailing mood in the dominant religious and political institutions as well as of the ideological battles between

2896:

Nevertheless it does not follow that the leader has either a clear definition of the type of organization he desires or that he possesses the requisite skills to achieve his goals. In particular, the leader has to take into account the social characteristics of his following who will also have

2702:

This paper reports on studies designed to clarify the role of large cohesive groups in effecting diminished drug use among their members. Subjects were drawn from two contemporary religious sects and data were obtained by administering self-report questionnaires under controlled conditions, in

2538:

The present paper will attempt to examine change in three religious or quasi-religious movements of Hindu origin: Transcendental Meditation (TM), the International Society of Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), and the Divine Light Mission (DLM). Although other important aspects of change (such as

2892:

It is the thesis of this paper that the Divine Light Mission as a social organization is a product of a number of analytically distinct sets of forces which impinge on any 'ideal' structure which the leader might devise. It cannot be stated, as Wallis claimed of the Children of God, that 'the

2903:

Price suggests in contrast to the unsupported claims given by Chryssides, Downton, Geaves and Melton, that the leader (Prem Rawat) was not in a position to make the autocratic changes in the Divine Light Mission/Élan Vital organisation that are so frequently accorded to him, not least in the

2672:

Galanter’s study was predicated on testing the hypothesis that: “a relationship existed between the perceived emotional relief and fidelity to the group ” Galanter did not consider Rawat as a specific source of relief, nor as an agent separate from the Divine Light Mission. Galanter did give

2582:

IN AN ARTICLE in the 1980 winter issue of the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Downton presents an "evolutionary theory of spiritual conversion and commitment." He differentiates twenty seven steps in the conversion process and in the growth of commitment to Divine Light Mission

2893:

development of the movement as a social structure has been altogether defined and directed by the leader's specification. . .' (7) Judging from what the leader of DLM has declared to his followers it is clear that he would like the mission to function without any formal organisation at all.

2780:

spontanen Subjektivität, die wohltuend vom unselbständigen Reproduzieren autoritativ verkündenter Lehren absticht, wie man es vor allem dei den Anhängern der ISKCON antrifft. Wie auch immer die Bewertung ausfallen mag - die geistige Konturlosigkeit der Bewegung fällt allen Beobachtern auf.

1326:

If Prem Rawat started a religion, and proclaims himself as lord of the universe, then some criticism of the religion will inevitably fall back onto Prem Rawat. I've seen "do no harm" quoted above, but a whitewashing of the subject does even more harm to the project and to the readers. -

3006:

The DLM's early development was characterized, then, by the organization of numerous local cults in various U.S. cities. Meditative practices and discussions concerning the mystical knowledge were individualized. The movement lacked both centralized control of its ideology and a standard

256:

A neutral point of view can be established by (at the very least) referencing that there is criticism, the type of criticism and the relative sources of the criticism (even if you don't link to them) you don't have to state that the criticism is right or wrong, that is for the reader to

2950:

The dismantling of the International Headquarters did not in fact take place, although staff numbers were greatly reduced, at the national level as well, and officials are very cautious now, afraid to take initiative while they try to guess what it is their Guru really intends.

2860:

Messer’s work, although published in an academic journal, is not itself a formally written academic document although it can be understood as a Qualitative study. An interesting observation comes in the contrast of practical financial concern with a movement belief in ‘Grace’:

2615:

Hindu theology). He did not object when his followers persisted further by identifying him with all these saviors as they had been predicted to return: Kalki the tenth incarnation of Vishnu; Jesus Christ's second coming; the Buddha Matreiya; and the tenth Imam of Shiite Islam.

953:

Then, from the now-notorious jossi, himself, we get "The Evening Standard is a tabloid," as if the page size of a publication has something to do with the validity of its content. "Divine Times" was a tabloid. So, I believe, are the New York Post and the Chicago Sun Times. So

1470:

Of course there are two sides to every story, but not at present in this article. You'd solve the problem by drafting a short section yourself. It's like in a debate where sometimes you debate against the position you actually hold. Its a good exercise in objectivity.

2686:

The history of the Rawat movement given by Galanter is based on the work of other authors and reproduces their errors, notably Downton and Melton Galanter’s own research into the social and psychological characteristics of Rawat’s followers is insightful and unique.

2212:

First of all, you would be very hard pressed to call me a "true believer", since all of my contributions to this talk page except for this one have been complaints about what a ridiculous whitewash the article is. Second of all, while I don't dispute that the fact is

1695:"According to Melton in a 1986 article, Mishler's complaints -- that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill and that money was increasingly diverted to Maharaji's personal use -- found little support and did not affect the progress of the Mission." 982:

whether he is God or not, (3) He has failed to take responsibility for bullying his followers into moving into ashrams, taking all of their money and possessions and they throwing them out into the street a few years later (but keeping all of their money, of course).

1686:

to be a little convoluted. As a first time reader, I couldn't easily discren whether it was criticism or refutation of criticism. By the third read the sentence becomes clear, but maybe it can be reworded? I added double dashes to what's there now to illustrate.

907:

groups of people critical or Rowat. All we need to do is decide how few a number of critics constitutes a tiny minority in this case, and then judge the total number of these groups against that to decide if their criticism should be referenced in the article.

2777:

gehalten hat und die mit einem Minimum hinduistischer Terminologie und Konzepte auskommen, müssen für den nichthinduistischen Hörer vage bleiben. Der junge Guru erklärt das konzeptionelle Denken, das auch in deutschen Übersetzungen mit dem englischen Wort : -->

2192:

It is currently a featured article of the Register. I should remind people, especially the follower of this guru that the Register article is in the front page of Digg and hence the editing of this article will receive far more outside scrutiny from now on.

1351:

for a comparison. While it is important to have some criticism we also need to use only the better sources and not write a section that predominates the article. I would hope all editors here could easily come up with a high quality paragraph, possibly two.

2632:

Foss and Larkin spent thirty months observing and participating in the activities of Divine Light Mission between 1973 and 1975, their study is the only sustained academic investigation of Prem Rawat’s following and as such stands as a key reference work.

1025:

leader" refers to his change of approach in the early 80s which attracted a lot of criticism at the time. This is to me, a neutral and encyclopedic way of acknowledging these things, with regard to the most important injunction for a biography, Do No Harm.

2162:

To Andries, I agree completely. I responded to Rumiton earlier, and was ignored, but I don't see how one can claim in good faith to want the article to be "encyclopedic," i.e. comprehensive, by definition, while forbidding the vast majority of sources.

2217:

in the article (I read the article earlier today), your edit was not about Prem Rawat. It was about Jossi Fresco and it was about Prem Rawat's Knowledge article. This article is not about either of those things. You might have a case for including it in

2531:

World-rejection, world-affirmation, and goal displacement: some aspects of change in three new religions movements of Hindu origin Encounter with India: studies in neohinduism N. Holm (ed.), (pp. 79-99) - Turku, Finland. Åbo Akademi University Press.

260:

I also think the terminology "hate site" is a biased one. Truth is a highly subjective matter, surely to obtain a neutral point of view one must have all the points of view to appreciate where neutrality actually lies. This includes potential "hate".

1020:

hence unfit to be a religious leader" comes in this category, as does "...Prem Rawat himself who generally encouraged whatever view was held by people." The fact that he appeared in public dressed as Krishna, and the reference to the mockumentary

998:

But, no, instead we just have this "Knowledge" policy as if the Better Business Bureau or Consumer Reports magazine should not accept complaints from consumers who don't like a particular product because anyone who complains is obviously biased?

2843:

believed to free the soul from its attachment with the physical body. Though both groups have similar theological teachings concerning the nature of this "Divine Word," each differ in their own way on how exactly to approach the Supreme Abode.”

252:

I mean to the casual observer the fact that two people who were previously part of the organization disagree so vehemently suggest that there is contention and this page doesn't suggest that there is any. This feels somewhat unbalanced in my

2713:

As with Galanter’s 1989 publication the focus of this work from 1980 is concerned with the role of a Group, not upon the Group leader as a separate agent nor upon the Knowledge meditation as an ameliorative or otherwise beneficial practice.

1127:

who drives an expensive car and owns a big yacht may not be a problem for premies, but it is a problem for Christians and that they should ask premies why Maharaj ji does not live what Kranenborg considers to be a normal and simple life.

884:

Can we estimate total number of 'miserable Dutch Protestants', 'Catholics or Lutherans' 'Buddhists', 'members of competing theologies' and 'hysterical tabloids' who criticise Rawat? If it is not a tiny minority view it does belong in a BLP.

1422:

I'm not sure how notable resolutions and proclamations are, but a key to a city is probably worth noting. An award for a TV program? Letters of appreciation? Feel free to add them but i think they will look like a parody of a normal

2944:

had been the International President since the headquarters were set up in the United States. It is apparent that Maharaj Ji resented the advice given to him by his chief subordinate and dismissed him when a clash of wills occurred.

2019:

Is it your position that criticism of a person is a BLP and NPOV violation? If so, would you point to policy that says so? And if not a violation, could you explain more about "getting around policies" - does that mean criticism is

2773:

Eine systematisch entwickelte Lehre hat die Divine Light Mission weder zur Zeit des Vaters Śhrī Hans noch des Sohnes besessen. Beide haben darin eher einen Vorzug als einen Mangel gesehen. Hatte der Vater sich vornehmlich als :

967:

Then, from Rumiton, again, "Rawat suffers from two major faults. He became a famous religious figure at a young age and he is Indian. He was therefore the object of cheap shots from the media and criticism from a few Christian

3021:

well as the claim that he was the only true spiritual master. Devotion to him allegedly was based in his ability to inspire a connection between himself and the "spiritual energy" or "divine light" experienced in meditation.

1214:) had a large amount of input on this version. I think the main reason for it not being included is that it was supposedly worked into the text, however, I don't see any criticim in the current article. Is there any at all? 692:

Just searching on google for "'Prem Rowat' cult" yields many thousands of results from loads of different sites. If there is that much material expressing these views, shouldn't they be debunked or explained here somewhere?

773:

The evening standard refers to him as a cult leader at least twice last year in separate articles last year, once on the front page. The article doesn't give any indication that a national newspaper has said that about him.

1645:, even if it's not to the satisfaction of the more extreme viewpoints. Right now it looks to me that one extreme is basically getting its way, and the other has resorted to I.P. pseudo-vandalism, and that needs to change. 1387:

section but I only noticed one keys to the city award, most seem to be spoken praise. I see no reason to have some praise but awards are more concrete. Praise is often given out disingenuously, awards probably less so.

2514:

The fundamental problem lies with the reliance on Downton, Geaves etc. The following sandbox article provides a more balanced distribution. Together with appropriate media references a reasonable article is achievable.

1312:

We have had suggestions above, from those I guess to be followers of Rawat, that any criticism from members of other faiths cannot be included because it's biased. That's bullshit and unworkable, I've taken a look at

2673:

consideration the Knowledge meditation, however only in the sense that it was a practice common to the group, and that it was correlated to altered consciousness which Galanter describes as a ‘religious experience’.

314:

To avoid this article being inundated with newspaper opinion, this article relies almost entirely on what scholars say about Rawat. Critcism by tabloids, blogs and personal, unmoderated web sites are not acceptable

1231:

at face value), I'm astonished that the level of whitewashing that seems to have gone on in this article. For a figure as prominent as Rawat and who has received as much criticism as Rawat has to have virtually

464:

Rawat suffers from two major faults. He became a famous religious figure at a young age and he is Indian. He was therefore the object of cheap shots from the media and criticism from a few Christian scholars.

1745:

I have spent over an hour now reading this talk page, the Prem Rawat article, the Register article, links concerning the 'definition' of cult, and many other related topics. Heck, I even stayed away from the

2594:: meditation and sacralized interaction among Western followers of an Indian Guru Thesis (Ph.D. in Sociology) -- University of California, Berkeley, Dec. 1983 . Bibliography: leaves 335-342 2380:

I came to this article after reading the Register article, which popped up in Digg's front page. May I ask why I can't see the section which say "Criticism"? Isn't this a blatant example of content forking?

1719:

I read the Register article and I was deeply concerned. I'm very familiar with Prem Rawat and his organization, and this article is incomplete at best and misleading at worst. Criticisms from such sites as

2340:

which explains to a great extent why the article had become one-sided . I also think that this history of editing principles may be helpful for other articles. I was involved from day 1 with this article.

2122:

that any suggestion that criticism from people with opposing religious views to Rawat's is automatically not okay is completely absurd (although I'm not accusing anybody of having made such a suggestion).

656:

scrupulously researched and sourced articles in Wiki. We have had numerous RFCs and excellent involvement from independent editors. As a result this article is factual and devoid of hype either pro or con.

1868:

I don't mind the publicity, it's the people it attracts that disturb me. People who have decided that as far as their POV is concerned Rawat needs to be criticized and so they've come here to express it.

1303:

scandal didn't involve a drug deal, but we're not going to dismiss BBC's coverage because it uses such a term. To dismiss all sources from tabloid newspapers is an incredibly flawed application of BLP.

1841:

It's quite understandable that you're disturbed by all of the publicity about the Knowledge article, and that many editors seem to have concluded that it is missing a large amount of needed content.

736: 539:

If anyone is really interested in keeping this article factual and based on excellent scholarly references, please remove 24.98.132.123 (Talk) inclusion of The Register as a source. Thanks.

2348:

2. Summaries of newspapers and published quotes by Prem Rawat. This eventually developed into a "quote war" between somewhat contradictory quotes by Rawat. Quotes were moved to Wikiquote.

1641:

I think (though I'm biased) that you'd be hard pressed to describe me as an extremist; same with David D. Hopefully the new editors on this page can cobble together something truly

1070:

a collaboration towards NPOV from May 2007. It never made it into the article as the whole section was cut before the imporved version was added back to the article in June 2007.

337:

time ago, but this is an opinion published by a Government body. It simply must be mentioned, perhaps in the article about the Diving Light Mission itself though? What do you think?

1119:

Kranenborg asserted that Jos Lammers, whom he labelled as an "ex-premie", made similar comments as van der Lans about Maharaji's lifestyle in his interview with the Dutch magazine

3000:

However, its development was not as simple, gradual, consistent, nor as longlasting as changes within other "Eastern imports" such as the Hare Krsna movement (see Pilarzyk 1975).

2743:“Divine Light Mission hardly had a philosophical background. The central beliefs were all summarized in this song.” – The words of arti, are then given in both Dutch and English 2542:

1) change in the degree of deliberate divergence from the norms of the mainstream society, i.e. - in the terminology of Wallis (1984) - world-rejection, and 2) change of goals.

446:

It also looks like a whitewash. You can't just revert to a no criticism version if there is in fact significant criticism. Undue weight does not mean delete, but reduce.

1610:

The trouble is that the article is already wildly out of balance; if we keep "balancing" any criticisms we insert, we're only going to preserve that out of balance state.

1572:" in the Divine Light Mission, members are expected to turn over all material possessions and earnings to the religion and to abstain from alcohol, tobacco, meat, and sex" 1188:" in the Divine Light Mission, members are expected to turn over all material possessions and earnings to the religion and to abstain from alcohol, tobacco, meat, and sex" 2351:

3. Summaries of scholarly sources. Heavy and repeated accusations of misparaphrasing and one-sided summaries led to quoting scholarly sources, instead of summarizing them

1784:) because of vandalism (after the reg article was published?). I've looked through the history and I dont see significant vandalism that wasnt dealt with quickly (e.g. 1516:

described Prem Rawat's message as "banal" based on his personal experience with Rawat in the preface of his book and treats elsewhere in his book the criticism by the

1136:

described Prem Rawat's message as "banal" based on his personal experience with Rawat in the preface of his book and treats elsewhere in his book the criticism by the

903:

In fact...this is a no brainer, the BLP page specifically says that criticism should be included, as long as it is not helpd by a tiny minority. Youv'e just mentioned

640:) not by Philippe who protected the page. The article is clearly an attack article and not the best representation of criticism. What serious criticism is out there? 184:

attack site set up with no purpose other than denigrating the subject of this article, who is a living person and protected by the Knowledge guidelines and rules for

249:

Surely, even though this is a living person it is still justified to have a criticisms section, especially considering the fact that this topic is a contentious one.

1227:

Let me just say that as a hitherto uninvolved editor (yes, one who was brought here by the Register article but no, not one who accepts the Register's claims about

737:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=alD&q=%27prem+rawat%27+%2Bcult&btnG=Search&meta=

2916:

Unlike writers such as Geaves and Melton, Price investigated what actually occurred within the Divine Light Mission, recording views of participants in the DLM:

2187:

Wow, less than three minutes. I'm quite impressed. I expected that my edit will be deleted by a true believer but not this fast. Here is the Register article.

1193:

Melton reports that "Maharaj Ji, who frequently acted like the teenager that he was in public, was seen as immature and hence unfit to be a religious leader."

1648:

I reiterate my belief that what David D. posted is a good starting point. We've heard my thoughts and those of Momento on the subject - what do others think?

759:

Wiki is an encyclopedia, it needs high quality sources not internet blogs. And Biographies of Living People require the highest standards of any Wiki articles.

1489:

I don't have a problem with this article. I think it will be a lot easier if you give me an example of criticism you've found that you'd like to see included.

553:

Rather than wait for somebody else to remove this properly cited information it appears that you have again reverted this article. I will again remind you of

2572:: A Comment on Downton in the book Of Gods and Men: New Religious Movements in the West. Macon edited by Eileen Barker, GA: Mercer University Press, (1984), 2358:

5. User:Momento adapted Vassyana's proposed principle and removed all statements that he did not like unless supported by two scholarly sources that stated

985:

Let's see: he could apologize? He could admit that he previously claimed that he was greater than or equal to God, and acknowledge that that isn't true?

851:

Momento, when do you think that criticism can be inserted? It has been my experience that you delete any criticism, regardless how well sourced it is.

2907:

Price states that: “Factual data have been obtained either from the mission's records or have been supplied verbally by mission officials.” And also

2001:

In a "Criticism of" article you can criticize another person to your heart's content without any need for NPOV. Somewhat biased? They're a disgrace.

1273:

does not include a sweeping statement deriding all tabloids, there is a gulf of difference between tabloid newspapers such as the Evening Standard,

671:

How large a proportion of Rawats ex-follows are represented by this group? Are you talking about the people responsible for the ex-premie website?

2737:"Bij Divine Light Mission is nauwelijks sprake van een filosofische achtergrond. De centrale 'geloofspunten zijn allen weergegeven in dit lied.” 509:

The supposed intent of the media is immaterial; the purpose of the article is to reflect an integrated view of the subject. Thus the reason for

1123:. He further wrote that when Christians get into dialogue with premies that the lifestyle of the guru is of great importance. He argued that a 1886:

is populated by negative people who are simply predisposed to want to criticise your idol for no good reason. That is such a cult hallmark.

2626:

The Negation of Social Causality among the Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji Sociological Analysis, Vol. 39, No. 2. (Summer, 1978), pp. 157-164.

1663:

simply be ignored, and I would imagine the furore over this article is more damaging to Rawat than the criticism originally on this page. --

2993:

Pilarzyk is as much concerned with organisational change and development as religious or philosophical change in the Divine Light Mission:

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An author initiated in Knowledge describes Rawat as being the subject of great controversy in India, "where he is also a major heretic."

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There's really another article called Criticism of Prem Rawat, but the only link to it comes in the infobox at the bottom of the page?

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And people are alright with that? Isn't there normally a small section with an italicized line under the heading along the lines of "

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Criticism is OK but there definitely shouldn't be a separate article or a separate section. I'm happy to work constructively with you.

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his work, and according to Jossi's comment above it's ok to refer to a biased site such as the site that contains Prem Rawat's resume.

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article as a platform to reiterate those peoples criticisms - that should be kept to those groups respective articles if appropriate.

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een subjektieve duiding from the series Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland: Feiten en Visies nr. 3, autumn 1981. (Dutch language)

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the case of darshan in Radhasoami and Divine Light Mission. Sociological Analysis, 47, Page 111-124. (1986): University of Guam

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I'd suggest that you mention some source of criticism you find acceptable. Even write a section that you could live with.

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I'm a bit confused, The Dalai Lama, section is "Awards and honors" not praise. Are they really equivalent? I looked at the

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is currently enjoying a relative stability, with neither a significant influx of new members or a substantial exodus.

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Paper presented at the American Academy of Religion's Western Region Conference, Stanford University, March 26, 1982

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While I'm not familiar with any of these specific scholars, so I can't comment on them individually, I do agree with

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a site about Prem Rawat and his work has been removed by Jossi without comment. However edit warring is prohibited

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decide/believe. Nor do you have to go into great detail, just reference the fact it exists and what it relates to.

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and added a NPOV tag. (I mean, really, it was TL—DR; but any criticism page is going to be somewhat biased. :P)

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who happen to be Christians are generally fine as a reputable source. I admit that is probably not the case for

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be as dangerous as a Hitler with the potential of leading his followers to violence and acts of destruction.

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There have been several version of the criticism section over the last year. I have stored some versions at

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1. arbitrary use of personal websites and ad hoc rebuttals of criticisms of Prem Rawat by Knowledge editors

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Did anyone suggest that, anywhere? I think people are more concerned about the fact that the article is

2041:, will you help integrate the criticism into the main article so that a second article isn't needed? -- 1839:

I am a consistent editor of Prem Rawat articles and constantly involved in discussions on the talk pages.

1538:, who has published several articles about cults and new religious movements, wrote in an article titled 1154:, who has published several articles about cults and new religious movements, wrote in an article titled 192:. Please avoid this by reading the extensive archives of this discussion page before contributing again. 1278: 627: 290: 222: 119: 2696:

Findings from Two Contemporary Religious Sects American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse Vol 7. 1980

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Re including that link elsewhere...what does "verified" mean? Is it another way of saying "reputable?"

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Prem Rawat has at times been the subject of criticism from religious scholars, individuals related to

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it seems only sensible and reasonable to include them on this page if the idea to merge is a good one.

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This paper is the result of a two-and-a-half year participant-observation study in which the authors

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Relevant academic writings excluded from or only partially referenced in Knowledge about Prem Rawat.

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As the teachings section has a link to a teachings page which is 100% pro prem could someone restore

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tag as it is intended to be used for new articles in order to guide new content onto a path towards

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Just a quick note and this will probably be my only post here....but I found the last sentence of

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You will also notice the absence of praise. WQe will need to include an honors section like here

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And so is the suggestion that people who aren't opposed to Rawat should be excluded from editing.

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Cults and new religious movements: a report of the committee on psychiatry and religion of the

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Cults and new religious movements: a report of the committee on psychiatry and religion of the

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section from a wikipedia article. What about honorary degree's from presitigious universities?

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if you are directly or indirectly involved with Prem Rawat before continuing this discussion?

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From slogans to mantras: social protest and religious conversion in the late Vietnam war era

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Yes. In this regard, we are on the same side (see me not being a "true believer", above).

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the same. Momento thinks that quoting a scholar is undue weight to one particular scholar.

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Again, Rumiton, as I have stated at least 5 times, statements by religious scholars, like

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Can these be improved to something that you would find acceptable along with a preamble?

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Notes and error identification taken from an unsigned web source - all seem sound to me.

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This article as it stands is doing a great deal of harm to the credibility of Knowledge.

165:. As for the "criticism section", please read the archives were this has been discussed. 2267:

Frankly, I have no idea what I meant by that. I've struck it, and am now going to bed.

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by people who not only aren't opposed to Rawat, but who are opposed to the inclusion of

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Premies Versus Sannyasins by Jan van der Lans and Dr. Frans Derks Update X 2 June 1986

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a problem that needs to be fixed. It really is that simple, something is wrong here.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat&oldid=101616544

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This might be a good starting point for a NPOV version since all the users like

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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organizational ones) should be recognized, only two will be considered here:

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as mentioned above, a staunch defender of Knowledge since it's earliest days.

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may be a tabloid, but that doesn't preclude it from being a reliable source.

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I want to give a brief history of the editing principles used in the article

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Well how about the following two paragraphs that i just copied directly from

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Oosterse Geloofsbewegingen in het Westen/Eastern faith movements in the West

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is one of the most pernicious and malevolent aspects of these groups, where

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is one of the most pernicious and malevolent aspects of these groups, where

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/cult/misc/mdpanel.htm

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Since there have been well documented criticisms, preserved in wikipedia at

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By all the new people popping in to tell us how much they care about Wiki.

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Volgelingen van de goeroe: Hedendaagse religieuze bewegingen in Nederland

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Volgelingen van de goeroe: Hedendaagse religieuze bewegingen in Nederland

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Any disputes should be dealt with using the dispute resolution process.

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Until today it was a redirect. It's not usual to document redirects.

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To Rumiton: Relgious scholars who happened to be Christians are okay

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are seen as cults held in low esteem and that families' perceptions

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are seen as cults held in low esteem and that families' perceptions

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Actually I was right the first time, there are thousands of hits.

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this article, including the numerous RFC and independent comments.

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criticism in the article is, in my view, a stunning violation of

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The Origin, Development, and Decline of a Youth Culture Religion

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policy or guideline here, or is this simply personal opinion?)

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Messer, Jeanne 'Guru Maharaj Ji and the Divine Light Mission,

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sticks to facts provided by unbiased and independent experts.

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Religiöse Bewegungen in westlichen Kulturen Stuttgart 1980,

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much criticism to be found on the Internet of this man, and

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Sources requiring inclusion/improved textual positioning:

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Brief history of editing principles used for this article

1568:"the leaders live in ostentation and offensive opulence." 1184:"the leaders live in ostentation and offensive opulence." 2723:

De missie van het Goddelijk licht van goeroe Maharaj Ji:

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writings, but I never insisted on using this sources.

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Galanter M, Buckley P, Deutsch A, Rabkin R, Rabkin J.

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Deletion of any critical commentary deeply disturbing

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Radhasoami as a Trans-National Movement unpublished

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And there's ample material here 1905:I have removed the recently added 1277:and worthless redtop rags such as 1240:. I think the paragraph cited by 428:that organization. Your breach of 24: 3118:http://www.dci.dk/en/?article=599 3287:American Psychiatric Association 3214:American Psychiatric Association 1505:Talk:Prem_Rawat/Bio_proposal_nr2 1068:Talk:Prem_Rawat/Bio_proposal_nr2 29: 3249:The New Religious Consciousness 2654:Oxford University Press, 1989. 2619:Daniel A. Foss; Ralph W. Larkin 1090:Catholic University of Nijmegen 2872:being generated by devotion. 2599:How people recognize charisma: 2097:Christian countercult movement 1837:As you said in February 2007, 163:Knowledge:BLP#Reliable_sources 1: 2480:But to answer your question, 2440:Main artcile can be found at 1896:02:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC) 626:Actually, it was inserted by 202:14:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC) 186:Biographies of living persons 175:03:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC) 151:03:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC) 124:13:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC) 3062:15:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2502:13:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2472:13:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2459:13:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2419:11:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2405:11:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2391:11:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2375:10:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2327:23:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2306:11:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2277:10:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2263:10:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2247:10:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2232:10:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2207:10:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2173:18:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2147:11:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2133:10:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2113:10:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2069:21:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2051:13:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2011:12:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1995:12:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1977:10:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1962:07:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1929:04:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1878:11:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1860:02:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1832:01:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1812:04:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1764:01:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1732:21:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1705:17:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1673:14:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1658:10:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1637:10:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1620:10:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1605:01:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1587:00:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 1499:23:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1479:23:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1458:22:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1435:22:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1418:22:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1396:20:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1379:19:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1360:18:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1340:18:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1261:15:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1222:14:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1054:20:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1035:14:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 1009:14:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 924:13:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 895:13:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 880:13:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 861:12:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 847:12:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 822:11:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 807:23:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 769:22:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 754:22:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 730:22:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 709:22:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 687:13:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 666:22:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 648:22:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 622:21:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 605:21:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 591:20:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 567:20:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 549:20:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 523:20:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 499:02:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 475:20:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 454:20:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 442:19:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 416:20:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 387:19:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 368:19:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 347:19:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 328:19:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 310:19:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC) 295:18:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC) 271:20:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 227:19:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC) 3313: 3138:published by Ambo, Baarn, 3098:published by Ambo, Baarn, 3038:Shabdism in North America 2546:this particular context. 1770:The article was locked by 1385:Wikiquote about Prem_Rawat 2889:Introductory paragraphs: 2821:Shabdism in North America 1349:Talk:Prem_Rawat/criticism 2699:Introductory paragraph: 2636:Introductory paragraph: 2604:Introductory paragraph: 2157:any criticism whatsoever 1934:Restoration of criticism 1788:was quickly reverted by 2510:A Balance of References 2442:Criticism of Prem Rawat 2430:Criticism of Prem Rawat 2220:Criticisms of Knowledge 1940:Criticism of Prem Rawat 1315:Criticism of Prem Rawat 870:the millionth time...) 112:Criticism of Prem Rawat 2624:Worshiping the Absurd: 2024:to include? (Is there 1967:What does TL-DR mean? 1576: 1526: 1198: 1086:psychology of religion 2740:English translation: 1983:too long; didn't read 1279:The National Enquirer 791:Knowledge:BLP#Sources 332:Momento, please read 42:of past discussions. 2904:Knowledge articles. 2587:Dupertuis, Lucy Gwyn 2183:Jossi Fresco article 1548:Divine Light Mission 1164:Divine Light Mission 1096:commissioned by the 1062:Semi-arbitrary break 1022:Lord of the Universe 3157:Kranenborg, Reender 2795:Juergensmeyer, Mark 1570:He also wrote that 1520:left on him in the 1406:I found these here 1186:He also wrote that 1140:left on him in the 1076:anti-cult movements 2663:Study Description 2085:Reender Kranenborg 1818:Becoming disturbed 1556:Unification Church 1172:Unification Church 432:has been reported. 190:disruptive editing 136:Knowledge:Edit war 3277:Life in the Cults 3204:Life in the Cults 3163:(Dutch language) 2397:Sarcasticidealist 2308: 2269:Sarcasticidealist 2239:Sarcasticidealist 2224:Sarcasticidealist 2125:Sarcasticidealist 1964: 1948:comment added by 1766: 1754:comment added by 1650:Sarcasticidealist 1612:Sarcasticidealist 1253:Sarcasticidealist 1084:, a professor of 926: 914:comment added by 805: 756: 744:comment added by 732: 720:comment added by 711: 699:comment added by 689: 677:comment added by 501: 489:comment added by 418: 406:comment added by 370: 358:comment added by 173: 100: 99: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3304: 3297: 3275:Levine, Saul V. 3273: 3267: 3257:Robert N. 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2210: 2209: 2208: 2204: 2200: 2194: 2190: 2189: 2182: 2174: 2170: 2166: 2165:155.104.37.18 2161: 2158: 2154: 2150: 2149: 2148: 2144: 2140: 2136: 2135: 2134: 2130: 2126: 2121: 2117: 2116: 2115: 2114: 2110: 2106: 2102: 2098: 2094: 2090: 2086: 2082: 2074: 2070: 2066: 2062: 2058: 2057: 2052: 2049: 2045: 2040: 2036: 2035: 2034: 2033: 2027: 2023: 2018: 2017: 2016: 2015: 2012: 2008: 2004: 1999: 1998: 1997: 1996: 1992: 1988: 1984: 1979: 1978: 1974: 1970: 1965: 1963: 1959: 1955: 1951: 1947: 1941: 1933: 1931: 1930: 1926: 1922: 1918: 1911: 1900: 1898: 1897: 1893: 1889: 1879: 1875: 1871: 1867: 1866: 1865: 1864: 1861: 1858: 1854: 1849: 1845: 1844: 1840: 1836: 1835: 1834: 1833: 1829: 1825: 1817: 1813: 1809: 1805: 1798: 1797:editprotected 1791: 1790:another anon. 1787: 1783: 1780: 1777: 1773: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1765: 1761: 1757: 1753: 1747: 1743: 1736: 1734: 1733: 1729: 1725: 1721: 1714: 1706: 1702: 1698: 1694: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1690: 1689: 1688: 1685: 1674: 1670: 1666: 1661: 1660: 1659: 1655: 1651: 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