74:
53:
176:
158:
84:
22:
311:
829:
your browser to see how it looks to anyone who doesn't have JavaScript enabled - and that can include huge numbers of people who use computers that they do not control themselves. Then you need to consider screen readers and text-only readers - we still have considerable numbers of visitors who are visually-impaired or live in places where only a low-bandwidth connection is available.
250:
186:
801:
function of the infobox (which in any event does not "need" to be presented in that way, despite what some claim), but simply for convenience. And it is quite acceptable to place metadata-emitting templates at the bottom of the article; you need only compare the use of persondata on biographical articles to confirm this.
491:
345:
712:
327:
I've done what I think is a pretty good start on this; it's one of those cases of "how did we not have an article on this?" There is enormously more territory to cover (I don't think this is even 1/5 done), but I'm going to be very busy the next 10 days or so. Someone else is more than welcome to add
777:
for a reason and it is unwarranted to deny a group of readers the opportunity to glean the main facts in this way. It is not at all obvious that the "Russian
Symphony Orchestra" was in fact founded in New York City and that fact needs to be immediately available to the reader; I would argue that the
828:
section. You even have a screenshot of the problem on a mobile device to see the effect. You are sorely mistaken if you think that using "collapsible collapsed" to hide content will prevent it from being seen (or heard) by a multitude of visitors. You only have to temporarily disable JavaScript in
395:
The infobox has again been removed from this article with an edit summary of "per previous". There has been no previous discussion on this talk page. The removing editor's previous edit summaries, in their entirety, have been "cleanup". "fmt", "the IP's solution" and "okay andy, if you insist...";
800:
No one has called you a liar, I've simply said that your assumption was mistaken: the previous version of the article had a metadata-emitting template to provide the machine-readable data that some prize; it used an infobox template to do so not because it was intended to provide the traditional
733:
Content with a font-size of 1.133px breaches our accessibility guidelines, as does content that relies on javascript for its display - we can't assume that user agents will handle those in a usable manner, as
Mackensen notes above in relation to mobile devices (an increasingly popular means of
442:
Hello Andy! Thank you for coming to the talk page to discuss your proposed addition. "The IP's solution" was in reference to a suggestion made elsewhere by an IP editor that the infobox invisible template might be a viable solution for this article. You objected to that solution, which is fair
719:
FYI, the current "infobox" is completely unusable from a mobile device and suggests a broken site. I've uploaded a screenshot to help illustrate the problem. Even if you zoom in you can't interact with it. I don't have a screen reader to test with but it wouldn't surprise me if there are
685:@Nikki. From the Arbcom infobox case: "I think several of the parties to this case are quite capable of changing their conduct without the need to pass formal remedies." One really would like to think that; however, at least one editor - me, isn't so inclined
824:) may be safely placed anywhere on a page, you cannot assume that a template that produces text - like infobox - can be situated willy-nilly within an article. It is not acceptable to place any article content (and that includes infoboxes) inside a
443:
enough; your rationale was "remove bogus template", so we did. All of the values you mention are provided in the first sentence for the convenience of our readers. As for the metadata, what is the status of the
Wikidata project in that regard?
815:
My argument thus far has excluded consideration of the value of machine-readable data, but if you want to bring that to the table as well, so be it. Just because an non-text producing template like persondata (which incidentally does
396:
none of which appear to be justification for removing such a useful feature. The infobox had previously been replaced with a non-infobox template, totally hidden from view, which has been deleted from
Knowledge, by consensus.
766:
Of course our content is for the reader - infoboxes present a brief summary of key facts for the casual reader on over 2,000,000 articles and this one is no different in that respect. Editors have taken the time to create
303:
359:
That concert featured MacDowell's ''Indian Suite'' and ''Second
Concerto'', Henry F. Gilbert's ''Salammbô's Invocation to Tänith'', and Arthur Shepard's ''Overture Joyeuse''.<ref name="NYT-1906-03-11"/:
902:
208:
353:] In late December 1905, Altschuler and others announced the formation of the New Music Society of America, soliciting "serious new work" from American composers.<ref: -->
357:" Apparently the first of these never took place, because the ''New York Times'' refers to the March 10 concert as the group's first.<ref name="NYT-1906-03-11": -->
933:
140:
130:
943:
938:
928:
856:
on this article, I am uniquely able to make an authoritative and irrefutable statement that it was, and is, "intended to be content for the reader". HTH.
738:
section breaches our conventions on what the content of that section may be. I'll restore a sensible size and acceptable placement of the infobox. --
355:
The first concerts were scheduled for
February 19, March 10, and April 2, 1906 at Carnegie Hall. The first announced piece was ]'s '']''.<ref: -->
948:
106:
299:
649:
I am less interested in metadata, more in a presentation of key facts where the average reader expects them. (Compare other orchestras such as
782:, so please don't call me a liar: there is no-one who will agree with you that it is acceptable to place content in the "References" section.
212:
199:
163:
872:
432:
97:
58:
621:
Please explain how your placement - which was not the original - to a position that is not standard would be preferable and by whom, --
635:
The longstanding placement was a compromise allowing the emission of metadata without negatively impacting the experience of editors.
281:
358:"Music by Americans: The First Concert of the New Music Society in Carnegie Hall", ''New York Times'', 1906-03-11, p. 9.</ref: -->
341:
Finally was able to resume recently. A fragment that I need to work on; trying to find more about the New Music
Society of America:
783:
895:
832:
Tl;dr summary: just because it looks ok on your screen, it doesn't mean that nobody is going to have a problem with it. --
457:
Okay, pending the development of a more appropriate means of emitting metadata, I've added a metadata-emitting template.
910:
752:
Only if we assume that this is intended to be content for the reader; it isn't, and "acceptable" as presented is false.
33:
105:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
771:
559:
354:"New Organization Will Have Aid of the Russian Symphony Society, ''New York Times'', 1905-12-27, p. 9.</ref: -->
711:
490:
21:
891:
The following
Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
555:
I am surprised about objections to an infobox for an orchestra, as was developed by project
Classical music,
906:
868:
428:
344:
658:
626:
598:
570:
191:
778:
years active is almost as key in giving an overview of the subject. ArbCom has agreed that infoboxes are
265:
39:
399:
The (real) infobox displays the following values, all of which are supported and cited in the article:
806:
757:
640:
612:
584:
462:
448:
270:
89:
724:
914:
876:
841:
810:
795:
761:
747:
727:
705:
662:
644:
630:
616:
602:
588:
574:
466:
452:
436:
384:
370:
336:
859:
653:.) Please let me understand what you mean by "negatively impacting the experience of editors". --
419:
249:
654:
650:
622:
594:
566:
211:
for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the
607:
No thank you. The original placement and parameters were preferable, so I've restored them.
381:
367:
333:
837:
802:
791:
753:
743:
636:
608:
580:
458:
444:
286:
204:
721:
698:
413:
for the convenience of our readers; and also emits them as machine-readable metadata.
73:
52:
922:
887:
A Commons file used on this page or its
Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
518:
514:
102:
175:
157:
821:
291:
207:, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the
203:, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to
377:
363:
329:
328:
to it; if not, I should get back to this roughly the second week of February. -
833:
787:
739:
181:
79:
693:
482:
356:"Music and Music Makers, ''New York Times'', 1906-01-07, p. X1.</ref: -->
260:
786:
is clear if you are unsure of what consensus exists on the issue. --
304:
Template:Did you know nominations/Russian Symphony Orchestra Society
710:
343:
593:
Thank you! I placed in the starndard position for an infobox. --
244:
15:
309:
852:
686:
784:
Knowledge:Manual of Style/Layout #Notes and references
302:. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at
101:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
540:
525:
500:
476:
495:Advert for the first performance of the orchestra
901:Participate in the deletion discussion at the
8:
19:
489:
473:
406:Also known as = Russian Symphony Orchestra
152:
47:
734:viewing). Placing article content in the
715:The bottom of the article from an iPhone.
403:Name = Russian Symphony Orchestra Society
273:). The text of the entry was as follows:
300:Knowledge:Recent additions/2013/January
285:gave the first American performance of
154:
49:
934:Low-importance New York City articles
298:A record of the entry may be seen at
221:Knowledge:WikiProject Classical music
7:
944:WikiProject Classical music articles
224:Template:WikiProject Classical music
197:This article is within the scope of
95:This article is within the scope of
376:Now integrated into the article. -
115:Knowledge:WikiProject New York City
38:It is of interest to the following
939:WikiProject New York City articles
929:Start-Class New York City articles
477:Russian Symphony Orchestra Society
282:Russian Symphony Orchestra Society
257:Russian Symphony Orchestra Society
118:Template:WikiProject New York City
14:
310:
720:accessibility problems as well.
416:The infobox should be restored.
409:Origin= 1903, New York City, USA
248:
184:
174:
156:
82:
72:
51:
20:
949:Knowledge Did you know articles
135:This article has been rated as
853:originally created the infobox
1:
915:22:10, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
877:11:01, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
842:02:31, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
811:01:45, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
796:01:09, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
762:00:35, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
748:22:04, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
109:and see a list of open tasks.
337:07:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
279:... that the New York-based
728:11:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
706:18:30, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
663:15:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
645:15:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
631:15:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
617:14:59, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
603:07:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
589:01:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
575:20:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
269:column on 29 January 2013 (
200:WikiProject Classical music
965:
371:06:48, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
141:project's importance scale
565:. I suggest to use it. --
488:
481:
467:12:53, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
453:12:41, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
437:12:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
385:06:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
169:
134:
98:WikiProject New York City
67:
46:
896:MaudeAllanSalomeHead.jpg
259:appeared on Knowledge's
227:Classical music articles
687:to make that assumption
716:
348:
315:
192:Classical music portal
121:New York City articles
28:This article is rated
714:
347:
313:
90:New York City portal
541:Principal conductor
907:Community Tech bot
850:As the person who
717:
349:
316:
34:content assessment
772:infobox orchestra
704:
651:Lautten Compagney
560:infobox orchestra
548:
547:
544:Modest Altschuler
320:
319:
243:
242:
239:
238:
235:
234:
215:for more details.
151:
150:
147:
146:
956:
875:
866:
862:
855:
776:
770:
703:
701:
690:
564:
558:
536:
534:
521:
512:
510:
493:
474:
435:
426:
422:
323:State of article
312:
252:
245:
229:
228:
225:
222:
219:
194:
189:
188:
187:
178:
171:
170:
160:
153:
123:
122:
119:
116:
113:
92:
87:
86:
85:
76:
69:
68:
63:
55:
48:
31:
25:
24:
16:
964:
963:
959:
958:
957:
955:
954:
953:
919:
918:
903:nomination page
889:
864:
858:
857:
851:
774:
768:
699:
691:
562:
556:
532:
530:
508:
506:
504:
496:
424:
418:
417:
393:
361:
325:
287:Igor Stravinsky
226:
223:
220:
218:Classical music
217:
216:
205:classical music
190:
185:
183:
164:Classical music
120:
117:
114:
111:
110:
88:
83:
81:
61:
32:on Knowledge's
29:
12:
11:
5:
962:
960:
952:
951:
946:
941:
936:
931:
921:
920:
899:
898:
888:
885:
884:
883:
882:
881:
880:
879:
848:
847:
846:
845:
844:
830:
709:
708:
682:
681:
680:
679:
678:
677:
676:
675:
674:
673:
672:
671:
670:
669:
668:
667:
666:
665:
546:
545:
542:
538:
537:
527:
523:
522:
502:
498:
497:
494:
486:
485:
479:
478:
472:
471:
470:
469:
411:
410:
407:
404:
392:
389:
388:
387:
352:
324:
321:
318:
317:
307:
297:
296:
253:
241:
240:
237:
236:
233:
232:
230:
196:
195:
179:
167:
166:
161:
149:
148:
145:
144:
137:Low-importance
133:
127:
126:
124:
107:the discussion
94:
93:
77:
65:
64:
62:Low‑importance
56:
44:
43:
37:
26:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
961:
950:
947:
945:
942:
940:
937:
935:
932:
930:
927:
926:
924:
917:
916:
912:
908:
904:
897:
894:
893:
892:
886:
878:
874:
870:
865:Pigsonthewing
861:
854:
849:
843:
839:
835:
831:
827:
823:
819:
814:
813:
812:
808:
804:
799:
798:
797:
793:
789:
785:
781:
773:
765:
764:
763:
759:
755:
751:
750:
749:
745:
741:
737:
732:
731:
730:
729:
726:
723:
713:
707:
702:
696:
695:
688:
684:
683:
664:
660:
656:
652:
648:
647:
646:
642:
638:
634:
633:
632:
628:
624:
620:
619:
618:
614:
610:
606:
605:
604:
600:
596:
592:
591:
590:
586:
582:
578:
577:
576:
572:
568:
561:
554:
553:
552:
551:
550:
549:
543:
539:
528:
524:
520:
516:
515:New York City
503:
499:
492:
487:
484:
480:
475:
468:
464:
460:
456:
455:
454:
450:
446:
441:
440:
439:
438:
434:
430:
425:Pigsonthewing
421:
414:
408:
405:
402:
401:
400:
397:
390:
386:
383:
379:
375:
374:
373:
372:
369:
365:
346:
342:
339:
338:
335:
331:
322:
308:
305:
301:
294:
293:
288:
284:
283:
278:
275:
274:
272:
268:
267:
262:
258:
254:
251:
247:
246:
231:
214:
210:
206:
202:
201:
193:
182:
180:
177:
173:
172:
168:
165:
162:
159:
155:
142:
138:
132:
129:
128:
125:
112:New York City
108:
104:
103:New York City
100:
99:
91:
80:
78:
75:
71:
70:
66:
60:
59:New York City
57:
54:
50:
45:
41:
35:
27:
23:
18:
17:
900:
890:
873:Andy's edits
869:Talk to Andy
860:Andy Mabbett
825:
822:microformats
817:
779:
735:
718:
692:
655:Gerda Arendt
623:Gerda Arendt
595:Gerda Arendt
567:Gerda Arendt
433:Andy's edits
429:Talk to Andy
420:Andy Mabbett
415:
412:
398:
394:
350:
340:
326:
292:The Firebird
290:
280:
277:Did you know
276:
266:Did you know
264:
256:
255:A fact from
213:project page
198:
136:
96:
40:WikiProjects
271:check views
30:Start-class
923:Categories
826:References
803:Nikkimaria
754:Nikkimaria
736:References
637:Nikkimaria
609:Nikkimaria
581:Nikkimaria
459:Nikkimaria
445:Nikkimaria
209:guidelines
722:Mackensen
526:Disbanded
483:Orchestra
314:Knowledge
261:Main Page
780:content
501:Founded
391:Infobox
263:in the
139:on the
725:(talk)
579:Done.
378:Jmabel
364:Jmabel
330:Jmabel
36:scale.
834:RexxS
820:emit
788:RexxS
740:RexxS
911:talk
838:talk
807:talk
792:talk
758:talk
744:talk
694:Ched
689:. —
659:talk
641:talk
627:talk
613:talk
599:talk
585:talk
571:talk
533:1918
529:1918
509:1903
505:1903
463:talk
449:talk
382:Talk
368:Talk
334:Talk
905:. —
867:);
818:not
519:USA
427:);
360:-->
289:'s
131:Low
925::
913:)
871:;
840:)
809:)
794:)
775:}}
769:{{
760:)
746:)
700:?
697::
661:)
643:)
629:)
615:)
601:)
587:)
573:)
563:}}
557:{{
517:,
513:,
465:)
451:)
431:;
380:|
366:|
362:-
332:|
909:(
863:(
836:(
805:(
790:(
756:(
742:(
657:(
639:(
625:(
611:(
597:(
583:(
569:(
535:)
531:(
511:)
507:(
461:(
447:(
423:(
351:"
306:.
295:?
143:.
42::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
