1585:)—that's probably one of the reasons we've bolded them for so long in article copy, to help readers follow along. (Five or six changes is not an unusual number.) Out of the universe of topics on this encyclopedia, it's not terribly common that one article subject goes by so many names in such a short period of time, but in radio, especially in the United States, it's more frequent. In some cases, information in the infobox (callsign history and airdate) is all we have on stub articles about a radio station's history, and for a typical US radio station that is broadcasting now and has been on the air since at least the early 1980s, all that is needed are two citations (to pre-1980 FCC history cards and post-1980 FCC database results).
2012:
their WP time arguing over which version of a conflicting set of variances (mathematics journal style versus chemistry journal style, or whatever) should be applied to any particular instance. And it would suck beyond all belief. That kind of bullshit is why we have the Manual of Style in the first place, because fights to the virtual death over stylistic trivia were miring the early
Knowledge (XXG) in pointless battlegrounding and were harming both editor collegiality and our ability to present a consistently-written encyclopedia for our readers. Even to this day MoS (and related WP:AT "issues") are still subject to
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1341:. I feel that this represents style creep, and makes these articles look cluttered and inconsistent from other Knowledge (XXG) articles. Call signs are most often given in all caps, and emboldening them outside the lead gives them too much emphasis. Infoboxes are meant to summarize only the key facts that appear in the article, and not be repositories for trivia (e.g.: transmitter antenna height). While some of this might be useful for tuning in broadcasting stations, Knowledge (XXG) is not a directory or TV guide. –
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1508:
underline, italic or big are possibilities, but it should be standard across all pages. Though for former call signs, I think it is fair enough for them to be bolded. If people are complaining that is not in the lead, perhaps the MOS needs to be modified to allow this. Redirects to sections also do well to have the redirect text bolded, and that will not be in the lead. For former radio station call signs, these could be in the lead.
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2045:
an editor who was here for a month and never again agrees with whoever proposed it and it's called 'consensus' somehow). I also disagree with Obral on bolding of brandings as I prefer italics, but that's a per-editor interpretation, and want the HD Radio template to also be harmonized, along with some standards for translator information and such. I also don't want to see "
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1557:. The Manual of Style exists for a good reason. Allowing any topic area to intentionally vary from the MOS only invites more such changes. (History articles might begin to vary in one way, biographies might begin to vary in another way, etc.) Let's do our best to stick to the standards and try to maintain consistency across subject areas.
1234:), bolding previous callsigns and broadcast translator names throughout the article (not merely in the lead for alternate names and redirects), filling many fields of the infobox in considerable detail with information not found elsewhere in the article, and using small fonts in infoboxes to facilitate inclusion of more information.
2306:
I don't use bolds except to add subheadings as "bold:" (generally follow the table format with lack of space using : as the spacer) as TV stations now have more (sub)channels but the structure assumes one channel unless there is a translator (field labeled "other ch", which would miss mark a station
2044:
I'm generally supportive of Raymie's reasonings for boldings or not and of ACCESS, but I've seen some editors go rogue with interpretations of that (such as needless bolding of owned-and-operated stations that otherwise goes unexplained outside of some post buried in a talk page I've never seen where
1487:
I can understand using bold to create subheadings in an infobox. However, the example infobox you note looks crowded and some of the information doesn't appear in any of the article's sources. If the infobox should only contain "key information", then shouldn't a lot of that be trimmed and/or worked
2011:
for a summary of additional reasons why. The short version is that everyone in every field wants to do something "special" with something or other in their field, and if we permitted this for every field, then every imaginable variance would be in play all at once, and we'd have people spending all
1086:
Please let me know any additional reasons you have for reverting the changes like those described above. If you agree that some of the changes were improvements, perhaps those parts of the edits can be reinstated in the article(s). For the rest, if we remain undecided, I feel the best option might
954:
argument. Other articles or editors doing that describes a practise, but it doesn't mean that practise has consensus on the level of a guideline or policy. Also, I think there's an argument for consistency across all
Knowledge (XXG) articles, not just topic-specific articles. The Manual of Style
2289:
being emboldened. I feel that in practice, a notable former call sign would be mentioned in the lead of the article and emboldened there rather than in the body. Otherwise, if it's insignificant, minor or non-notable (i.e.: a translator or repeater transmitter), it might not be worth emboldening
1507:
particularly use of small text in articles is not helpful to the hard of seeing. Let standard styles operate on the text, and then if people want to see variants, they can modify that themselves. I would like to see the MOS cover how to indicate where an abbreviation comes from. The use of bold,
980:
I felt that a lot of the information in the infobox was unsourced and marked some for needing citations and removed others as unsourced trivia. The two tiny external link icons under "Public license information" are unlabelled and non-obvious, and aren't a standard reference style. If they are
2206:
Is "MHz" even necessary when referencing a translator? Isn't "98.9 W225CW (Lorain)" sufficient? Are parenthesizes even necessary for the translator's COL? (You do have to mention the COL when referencing the translator, as more often than not, it deviated from the programming source's
1595:
For the KFCO example, why is it impractical to have the former call letters in the lead? Most of the article is about the station's history, so the lead could summarize that with a paragraph which includes the former call signs in bold, then remove that bold style from the body.
1577:
I completely understand the text size accessibility and data parsing motives in re: the infobox. I think a good question would be "what would these infoboxes look like" and "what information shouldn't be there" for both TV and radio? That might help me visualize what's going
1537:
under
Emphasis, there is a specific recommendation against use of bold, underline, italic, or other special styles to emphasize the letters of an expanded acronym. In part, this RfC is to determine if there is a good reason to set aside the MOS for call signs.
1463:) to give some differentiation between that and the branding. Though, that's not a sticking point with me, I just think it makes the text look a little easier on the eyes in my opinion. Otherwise, I think any extra bold within the article is unnecessary. -
2258:
for former call signs. I consider this consistent with MOS:BOLD, as "This is also done at the first occurrence of a term (commonly a synonym in the lead) that redirects to the article or one of its subsections, whether the term appears in the lead or not."
1064:
I removed some information about W04BJ, W27AA, W65AD, etc., as non-notable trivia. I didn't think their equipment failures or channels that they never broadcast on were important enough to the subject of the article, especially as it was all
1682:
A good example of an article that would include mention of a former callsign is when people either strongly associate the station with that callsign, or if there was a major cultural event that the station was involved in. For the former,
1617:
Only if the lede were an adequate summary of the article, and typically that's not done. Turns out that article is missing the history card-era callsign history, too, so it's actually longer! I don't want to see an article start
1574:. I say this as someone who earlier this year led a somewhat confused series of RfCs and requested moves to bring radio and TV in line with MOS on disambiguators in articles. Here are my thoughts in general on the discussion:
981:
being used as references, it's unclear what information in the infobox is being cited to them. A good deal of the information in the infobox can not be found at either external link or contradicts with the infobox:
202:
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1003:
I added tags at unsourced passages, to help editors spot where citations or additional citations were needed. Per
Knowledge (XXG)'s verifiability policy, challenged material should either be cited or removed
743:
662:
1268:
related to this at WikiProject Radio
Stations, with opinion divided between style editors and WP:Radio editors. More recently, this involves the copy edits and reverts of such to eight TV station articles
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976:
Do you have anything else to add for why you think the article is better without the edits that I made? I'm going to go over a few more things (some of which was previously mentioned on my talk page).
2220:
template necessary for these two categories? I've been vacillating back and forth on that. It's been used when trying to get a line of text to fix but in some cases, it risks breaking the infobox (see
1411:
says that four-tilde signing is acceptable, so I reverted your edit which altered the time stamp. Though I assume that you did this in good faith, altering another user's signature is unacceptable per
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I removed tiny font sizes in infoboxes, due to accessibility issues. (A recent RfC decided that since infoboxes already use small text, that further reducing text size was not to be recommended.)
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1049:
The unsourced passage about translator W12DK-D had some confusion about the timing of what it describes. I had tagged it for clarification regarding this and changed some verb tenses and
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pinging you both given the extensive work the two of you have done on the Ohio radio/television articles (my lede writing for radio articles is heavily based off of how they write them).
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1779:
I generally support most of the MOS harmonization moves; I just want to see what that would look like in practice for a typical radio or TV station article to provide some feedback.
2126:
Yeah, I'm not opposed at all to switching branding from bold to italics. If a consensus can be achieved on that, it's cool; I have no problem going around and making those changes.
955:
represents a fairly broad consensus of editors, and while it can be set aside for a good reason there really ought to be a specific reason to explain why deviating is beneficial. –
2349:
2379:
2354:
1091:
since this involves multiple articles and general editing practices. In such case, I hope you'll help me with the wording of an RfC to concisely cover our concerns. Thanks. –
2384:
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There has been a practice in some television and radio station articles of varying from the style guidelines, such as applying special styling to expanded call signs (e.g.:
1146:
1935:
times between 1977 and 2008, and in most cases, there isn't much to go on for most of those formats, just that the calls changed, and a cursory description of the format. (
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1581:
Placing former call letters in the lede as bolded items is not practical. Some stations, particularly in radio, have changed their call letters a lot (a random example is
310:
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992:
I moved the first mention of the unsourced former callsign WCLP-TV up to the lead sentence as an (alternative) historical name for the subject. This is important as
987:
the call letter meaning, branding, station slogan, former affiliations, former callsigns, and other channels/translators do not appear to be listed at either site.
1892:
Nice catch. Looks like someone attempted to bring it into line in 2016 but was overruled by Levdr1lp. I am going to propose the change for that template as well.
1459:
ighlands) in the infobox. Anything else, I think is an unnecessary use of bold. That said, I will use bold in the infobox for the "HD1", "HD2", etc. (example
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1943:
I haven't unbolded the body on that yet just so everyone can see how bad it can get.) The way I write ledes is pretty straightforward, bolding branding like
2369:
1171:(MOS) guidelines for TV and radio stations articles. The implication is that there is no barrier toward harmonizing such articles with MOS guidelines. –
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I've noticed that you've made a lot of reverts to copy edits of this article. I'm going ahead and providing the reasons for my edits here:
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would allow it to be extensible to radio and applicable for all stations except LPFMs, which do not have FCC-required online public files.)
1835:) in the infobox, and the article lede should make an attempt to state the various methods of broadcasting, depending on how they exist.
809:
All of the above style issues are really just attempts to cram more information into the infobox, which is counter to MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE.
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and related subjects in the
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, and even
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but with it being unsourced and no idea of who anticipated it or when this was supposed to have happened leaves it rather problematic.
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The infobox was large and crowded with information, extending past the lead and TOC and well into the first section of the article.
1320:
It is hoped that this RfC will determine if there are reasons for these practices, and if they might form a consensus of opinion.
789:
The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.
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I trimmed a lot of extraneous information, particularly information that did not fit an infobox parameter or which was unsourced.
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2203:'s infobox and simplified it a bit more, but the slash in between the calls and COL don't look quite right the more I see it.
1927:, which I recently reverted back into prose form so it actually read like an article again; a series of prior edits wound up
1766:
1729:
214:
1192:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1123:
talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made
94:
on 13 July 2021 and it now redirects there. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see
2326:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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I also totally agree about the translator and repeater portions in the infobox. Here's my hot takes (and bringing in
1703:, a landmark in popular music. In both cases, neither article has the previous calls bolded in the second paragraph.
837:
Removed excessively detailed unsourced trivia. Articles should be a summary of notable information about the subject.
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1735:. For the public file, that really should be a new and separate template in the external links area, in the vein of
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Replaced html line breaks with templates, as the former has been known to cause problems with some mobile platforms.
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2281:
rather than advocating an MOS variance. I'd note that WP:R#ASTONISH says bolding of redirect terms is optional:
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Generally, the public license links in TV infoboxes are something unique to TV as that was never implemented in
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which was irrelevant to the subject since the station had completed the switchover on the original target date.
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2017:
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1261:(under "Public license information") an acceptable reference for information found elsewhere in the infobox?
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1919:
And I'm saying this being as guilty as everyone else with bolding stuff. A good example of how over-bolding
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into the article body? Perhaps, per Raymie below, we should look at just what ought to be in the infobox. –
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I'm with Nathan here - bold in the lede, fine...in the meat of the article, not so much. So count me as a
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because emotions run inappropriately high over style pet peeves that various editors have a subjectively
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2224:). It's clearly done within the editor's discretion, of course, but clear limits need to be established.
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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breaks it with its use of small text for the licensee field; a TPER has been made to remove that.
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1657:), and would tend to summarize the history and former names in a second paragraph of the lead. –
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I replaced your signature above the "No" with a generic five-tilde version without the username.
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beginning of the lede and if there is a current callsign meaning (using
Reidgreg's example,
189:, an open collaborative effort to coordinate work for and sustain comprehensive coverage of
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2008:
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Is it? Everything above my "No" had to be phrased neutrally, but I do have an opinion. –
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station, as WTCI-TV had not started broadcasting until 1970. → It was
Chattanooga's first
1008:). I feel that removing the inline tags without discussion is not an acceptable practice.
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929:, I was only doing the infoboxes to maintain consistency with other TV station articles.
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To avoid clutter, I tend to only list very common alternate names in the lead sentence (
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can no longer get GPB's flagship station → can no longer receive GPB's flagship station
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Lists should be bulleted rather than numbered when they do not have an inherent order (
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1443:: For me, I have always used bold on the initial use of the station's callsign at the
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Filled-out a citation template for an external link in section
Digital television
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707:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page where you can
1317:). The edits to WNGH-TV were discussed above, and are indicative of the group.
703:, a collaborative effort to develop and improve Knowledge (XXG) articles about
2308:
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1197:
Is there a good reason for television and radio station articles to vary from
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Ran IAbot to clean up citations and check archival of sources for dead links.
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on February 2. → On February 2, 1979, the station branded itself as WCLP-TV.
1026:
Conciseness; summarizing material in fewer words makes text easier to read:
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the purpose of an infobox: to summarize key facts that appear in the article
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In early 1979, the station added the -TV suffix to its call sign, becoming
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on the deletion of articles related to Georgia (U.S. state) - compiled by
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mentions its past identity as WJMO (not to be confused with the current
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at publicfiles.fcc.gov the studio is listed as Atlanta, not Chatsworth.
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Tag the talk pages of Georgia (U.S. state)-related articles with the
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under federal mandate (which was later pushed back to June 12, 2009)
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has been removed (i.e. declined). Like all other moderated content
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such a term when there would be little or no discussion of it. –
2277:
This may be a 'No' vote because it is in line with MOS:BOLD and
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work in the lede, but even then that's up for an honest debate.
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KCNQ, KSDD, KSIR, KSIR-FM, KSYY-FM, KONN-FM, KDHT-FM and KXDE
1068:
Removed unnecessary quotes around the parenthetic ("parent").
800:
I stripped specialized styling on the expanded call sign per
531:
Knowledge (XXG) requested photographs in Georgia (U.S. state)
492:
more Georgia (U.S. state) articles missing geocoordinate data
1871:(the overall verbiage being up to each editor's discretion)
1253:
Additionally, are the small external links in the bottom of
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mentions its original identity as WJW (AM), which employed
1057:. We can't state future events in Knowledge (XXG)'s voice
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on 6 December, along with similar reverts to copy edits of
2283:
It will often be appropriate to bold the redirected term
588:
Category:Georgia (U.S. state) articles needing attention
299:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
2229:
In any event, these really need to be addressed. Let's
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Knowledge (XXG) requested maps in Georgia (U.S. state)
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was redundant for "WZAK-HD3" (see above comments re:
1358:, Responding to your own question? That's crazy man.
1163:While there is some variation for use of bold per
1119:venues at Knowledge (XXG), Third Opinion requires
1011:I linked terms on first mention in lead and body (
1323:Thank you for your time and opinions on this. –
447:Unknown-importance Georgia (U.S. state) articles
319:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state)
2057:" and such writing just overwhelming the lede.
1018:Some tone issues, replacing informal language:
871:Please note that the copy edit was reverted in
505:Georgia (U.S. state) articles without infoboxes
120:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s
1153:RfC about TV and radio station style variances
8:
2350:Redirect-Class Georgia (U.S. state) articles
950:I can understand that, but it's a bit of an
2380:Redirect-Class Television stations articles
2355:NA-importance Georgia (U.S. state) articles
1167:, no reasons were offered for varying from
1029:In effect, it was also Chattanooga's first
2385:NA-importance Television stations articles
2360:Unreferenced Georgia (U.S. state) articles
646:
461:Unreferenced Georgia (U.S. state) articles
402:Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
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241:
135:
2365:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state) articles
2287:insignificant or minor redirects can skip
322:Template:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state)
2199:for why). I stripped that part out with
1839:'s article lede includes the following:
549:Georgia (U.S. state) radio station stubs
443:Unassessed Georgia (U.S. state) articles
2390:Television stations task force articles
2007:, for all the reasons above. See also
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360:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state) To-do:
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137:
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1849:channels, and is available online via
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717:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Television
624:to a featured article quality standard
697:This redirect is within the scope of
293:This redirect is within the scope of
222:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Tennessee
107:
7:
1931:. That station changed call letters
1817:for what it's worth. In my opinion,
1188:The following discussion is closed.
557:Georgia (U.S. state) geography stubs
41:Because this page is not frequently
1037:station, joined by WTCI-TV in 1970.
126:It is of interest to the following
2370:Redirect-Class television articles
1929:making it look like a stub article
1857:digital subchannel, which airs an
1745:or whatever. (A minor revision to
1476:• 19:23 on December 27, 2019 (UTC)
744:the Television stations task force
45:, present and future discussions,
14:
2375:NA-importance television articles
2233:a standard that fits the MOS and
599:Articles with notability concerns
586:Help out with articles placed in
2345:NA-importance Tennessee articles
2322:The discussion above is closed.
1109:About the Third Opinion Request:
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612:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state)
474:Cleanup listing for this project
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296:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state)
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62:Talk:Georgia Public Broadcasting
19:
2395:WikiProject Television articles
720:Template:WikiProject Television
553:Georgia (U.S. state) road stubs
343:This redirect lacks sufficient
741:This redirect is supported by
225:Template:WikiProject Tennessee
1:
2175:that simplified both in this
2021:
1793:03:20, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
1667:16:47, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
1642:19:12, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
1606:17:49, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
1567:01:05, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
1548:17:49, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
1518:21:41, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
1498:17:49, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
1425:19:04, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
1403:17:30, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
1382:17:13, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
1368:17:01, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
1351:16:26, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
1333:16:24, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
1250:discourage these practices.
1211:16:24, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
1143:22:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
1101:15:34, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
915:15:34, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
859:20:39, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
849:if you have any questions. –
543:Work on stubs in articles in
325:Georgia (U.S. state) articles
313:and see a list of open tasks.
2317:21:31, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
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1949:SportsRadio 93.7 WEEI-FM
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418:Ed Defore Sports Complex
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219:Tennessee
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28:talk page
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