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written term is
Worcestershire sauce. No, nobody pronounces Worcestershire and Worcester the same (one is the county and the other is the county town, and they sound exactly as different as Yorkshire and York). Are there two different things called Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce? No, not that anyone on here has given any evidence for. But have I ever heard anyone (even my grandparents born before the first world war) say "Worcestershire sauce"? Absolutely not. Almost everything on the internet is in written form, so it's unsurprisingly difficult to find references acceptable Knowledge standards. But if we need an authority on the subject, refer to Nigella's tweet of 25 March 2016 where she says in answer to this very question "Well, Worcester sauce for me, for all that it's written Worcestershire". If you're not happy with that, Delia uses both versions in the same (written) recipe. Probably the two most famous British cookery writers, both universally known by just their first names. (OK, Heston gets close). It just doesn't make sense that this page doesn't even mention a term that's so universally known in spoken English.
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I have deleted most of the text under "Origins" which goes on about garum and then claims sauces similar to
Worcestershire went back to the 17th century - only to cite an NPR item about garum which says nothing about anchovies. I left the claim about such sauces going back to the 17th century, but it
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I'd be OK with a "non-fish variations" subsection. I'd prefer a separate article, because I'm concerned that these oriental variations will attract brand-promoters, so that the descriptions of the variants will grow to challenge the anchovy-based original, with pictures, links to manufacturers and so
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that there is a continuum of "Worcestershire sauces" from the
British original, to Western industrial imitations using some soy, to dietary-speciality (kosher-pareve, vegetarian/vegan) sauces with little or no fish, to Asian sauces; it would be messy if not impossible under OR to try and draw a line.
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Maybe we could simply mention that there are sauces made in the Far East, that call themselves worcestershire, but neither taste like
Worcestershire Sauce, nor contain similar ingredients. Perhaps a separate page could be made for detailed discussion of these sauces. Maybe even a disambiguation page
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yank here. i have never heard it called worcester sauce, so add my vote to those who think there is a US/UK divide on this. moreover, on Woost-ə-shə vs Woost-er-sheer i'd say most of us actually say "Woost-ə-sheer". or at least "Woost-ə-shər". even in the quickest of speech, i don't hear people
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I believe that singling these divergent version out in a subsection "Non-fish variations" is sufficient to distinguish these from more "proper" ones. They do taste like the W-sauce and contain similar ingredients in that they are generally sour and armoatic, with some being umami. I further argue
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I'm willing to help build this subsection, but I'm not motivated to do the heavy lifting, because my preference is deletion. I don't think it's right for me to do major work on content describing products that I think don't belong. Basically I regard all these products as WS substitutes. I mean,
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I've just been reading this page and I'm baffled by the fact that the common usage "Worcester sauce" is not mentioned anywhere. That was the search term I used to reach the page, and as a
British reader it's the only term I've ever heard spoken, other than "Lea & Perrins". Yes, the correct
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is worth a listen if you're interested, although I've no idea what this person's credentials are. Summary: When referring to the sauce rather than the county, "Worcestershire" is pronounced as "Worcester". So the spelling is "Worcestershire sauce", but the pronunciation is "woostuh sauce".
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Worcester has a truly large castle, from the high days of knights in armour, and is about the southern edge of the
Midlands industrial region which was the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution. As a result, the locals are rarely minded to use four syllables when two will do.
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Listen to Delia on this video of her making gravy, at 3:37. Video is titled "Delia's
Techniques - How to make Perfect Gravy", for some reason i cannot link to youtube from here. She uses the pronunciation of the town, dropping the 'shire' (as do all UK foodies I know).
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Of course, as Arcman pointed out, written sources (as used by Google ngrams) don't tell us how it's pronounced in practice. I get the impression that a lot of people around here (Boston area) call it
Worcester sauce in speech, but I'm afraid I don't have a
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Worcestershire Sauce is trademarked, competitors call their sauce
Worcester sauce to avoid licencing issues - see Tyrrells & Walkers crisps as examples. Worcestershire sauce is the genuine, but everyone calls it Worcester sauce as it is easier to say.
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Andy's correct. Whatever it says on the label, it came from
Worcester, as you say, and we know it as Worcester sauce. The addition of the -shire came from Americans of non-British origins simply reading it off the label and massively overcomplicating
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I have added a note to clarify that there is no direct link with garum to modern fish sauces. Also, I see no evidence of a commercial fish sauce in the seventeenth century, but added a note about homemade sauces using
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is often heard for the sauce, so I am deleting it from the text in the interest of simplicity & clarity. If another editor wants the Standard American pronunciation(s) included I suggest adding a corresponding
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that it was the majority form from 1870 to 1970 in the UK, whereas in the US, it has only been 10-20% of usage. Nowadays, Worcestershire is almost 90% of usage in the UK, and almost 100% in the US.
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project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
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I've typically only heard it called "worcester sauce" in conversation (because "worcestershire" is a bit of a mouthful) but it seems some food manufacturers do also use it on their packaging, eg:
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I take your point about the veggie/vegan products. I contend that these are no more Worcestershire Sauce than vegetarian parmigiano is parmigiano; but they have a place in the article.
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The Cambridge dictionary shows non-rhotic /r/ as superscript 'r' in the IPA but WP IPAc template does not permit this; a pity, it's non-standard but intuitively clear. I've put "
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I'm native English speaker, live a few miles from Worcestershire and have worked in the county. And I have never heard a single person pronounce "Worcestershire" as "Worcester".
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i thought this was all lost to the ages, but then i SAW a bottle so labeled in an asian market! i regret that i did not purchase it on the spot, b/c i've never seen one again.
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My changes removed discussion of oriental "worcestershire sauce" variants that share little with Worcestershire Sauce, other than they are savoury.
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ketchup or catsup originally referred to some watery BLACK sauce, the details of which i am unsure about. i figure either soy or worcestershire.
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geesh. i don't want be "that guy" here, but could we pls say "asian sauces"? "oriental" went out around 1975....
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So they're calling two things by the wrong name, worchestershire AND chips.21:59, 18 October 2017 (UTC)~
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file, as this is one of the most talked-about pronunciations I have encountered ;-) BTW, I have added
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shortened to worcester" sauce. I have never seen it thus shortened. Is there reference for this?
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Thanks. That was a graceful solution. Need to be more careful about where I put my Talk comments.
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itself is a credible substitute for WS in cooking; but we don't list that as a type of WS.
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dropping the final r. but that is not to say we'd put one on the "worcester" part.
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The English say "wooster" sauce because that's how they pronounce Worcestershire.
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Hopefully someone will source the 17th century claim. Will look around when I can.
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Worcestershire sauce and Worcester sauce both exist and are not the same thing.
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http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/10/worcestershire-sauce-called/
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any experts have insight as to which sauce "original ketchup" equates to?
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i have rarely seen the paper-wrapped version; is this info still current?
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on. But rolling them into their own subsection is a reasonable compromise.
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Moved newest post on this talk page (the one above by
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966:— Preceding
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914:Andy's edits
910:Talk to Andy
901:Andy Mabbett
877:— Preceding
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850:Andy's edits
846:Talk to Andy
837:Andy Mabbett
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784:Andy Mabbett
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1002:Woost-É™-shÉ™
823:Oh really?
484:transcluded
468:. List any
453:select here
421:Burger King
190:Food portal
1464:Categories
1439:anchovies.
1300:US version
947:Ianmurray5
719:Misterjosh
622:references
1237:Soy Sauce
1149:H Remster
1039:" in the
666:Archive 1
438:WP:Trivia
365:Soy sauce
333:status:
39:is rated
1342:ketchup?
1113:Macrakis
968:unsigned
879:unsigned
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654:Archives
447:Add the
415:status:
389:status:
1387:I have
1196:Artoria
1041:Respell
923:things.
715:usually
694:90 days
602:on the
270:history
243:on the
134:on the
41:C-class
1401:fish!)
1063:Arcman
1011:Listen
998:woostÉ™
996:have "
990:Listen
750:Zarino
373:Yogurt
107:Brands
98:brands
70:Brands
47:scale.
1109:WP:RS
1101:shows
1097:WP:OR
709:Intro
417:Apple
399:Sugar
369:Sushi
353:Drink
349:Curry
345:Bread
280:purge
275:watch
207:drink
28:This
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744:and
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391:Beer
357:Food
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290:here
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205:and
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235:Mid
126:Mid
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53::
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