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have any such sources. If the allegations really were made by the BBC and if they really are still common currency in leftwing circles, I'd have thought it shouldn't be too hard to find something suitable. The only other alternative as far as I can see would be to change the wording so as to hold the allegations at double arms length, something along the lines of "AWL, a group bitterly opposed to the WRP, asserts that allegations were made by the BBC ... blah blah etc". But that would be quite ridiculous. And, surely, unnecessary. I really can't believe 1983 is so far into prehistory that written records have not survived, especially of a thing like this which, if true, must have been a major scandal. Surely the Daily Mail must have had a field day? Sorry to be a pain, but I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. We shouldn't take anybody's word for it. Serious allegations need serious sources!
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the accusation of the Youth training centres as being anti-police, we should first mention something about the centres, where they were, what WRP aimed with them, otherwise even the allegations become meaningless. A passive reader could imagine army style camps, schools, etc. I was directly associated with WRP in the 70/80s and the youth training centres were created from abandoned buildings, renovated, and made into a 'community centre' for urban areas where other resources had closed. There was one in
Liverpool. There were jumble sales, craft classes, and young people could meet and chat. Strict classes were not held, it was very casual, and no more political than any average community centre would be.
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or overturn decisions that would adversely affect communities, such as the well known Tory policies of closing small schools, taking away school milk, school dinners, community centres etc. These had many successes that were documented in News Line at the time. I hope this is helpful, I realise that I could be accused of using weasel words, but this is just supplying information in my own words. I would like to see a more historically balanced article, not just the negative allegations. I do not want to change the article myself before getting feedback otherwise I suspect my input would be removed.
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really not good enough. A second-hand supposed quotation from the report of a self-styled "Commission of the
International Committee of the Fourth International" really doesn't cut the mustard as a demonstrably trustworthy, disinterested source for an encyclopedia article. I'm not saying I don't believe these allegations. I have no idea at all whether they are true. I'm saying we shouldn't include them in this article until we find them cited in a source that will be widely respected. If the allegations were really made by the BBC on the Money Programme, then we need to prove that.
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756:(both highly critical of the WRP but from quite different perspectives). Neither goes into much detail about the allegations, but summarises them in roughly the same manner as the article. I suspect the difficulty is that this was not very widely reported at the time, and that clearly it was before the advent of the internet. Should anyone have access to back copies of
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by the WRP. I have tried to make it clear that these are *allegations*, and the sources are not unbiased. A front cover of News Line attacking the BBC for making the allegations would be great, but I don't know where we could find one. These allegations are widespread on the left, and the article would be seriously misrepresentative without them. What do you suggest?
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members in raising funds that were squandered and abused. I think there were more subsidies. The WRP distributed some Libyan literature, including copies of the Green Book. Even amongst comrades I knew, I can also recall the example of fully subsidised training programmes in Libya. However, it will be impossible to prove much of this. --
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What source do you want? The ICFI members were formerly part of the WRP, and made the entirely plausible claim that they had access to the original documents. The AWL clearly are opposed to the WRP, but I can't imagine any reason why they'd invent a claim that SO repeated these claims and were sued
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The report also discusses photographs taken by WRP members of demonstrations being bought by Iraqi
Embassy for £1,600 in order to identify Iraqi opponents abroad: the ICFI report attributes under £20,000 to Iraqi sources. Libya is different: Huge sums of money were involved, especially for the press
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to show that the W.R.P. was financed by the Libyan regime." Nothing about Saddam at all, there. The other link seems to be dead, but the URL indicates that it is on a site run by an organisation that in my limited experience is not exactly an unimpeachable fount of truth, and which anyway freely
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WRP had candidates in many local elections, for council and government, with limited success, apart from the North west and
Scotland which fared better. I cannot give stats but I assume they will be available somewhere. Many campaigns and petitions with protests (peaceful) took place to try and save
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I feel that the page is lacking relevant information such as what the WRP actually did (achieved?) during the 70s and 80s. Instead it's filled with allegations that other parties/media have made. Some of these may be relevant, but more content of what WRP actually did is needed. For example, to cite
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made? Taking people's word for things is not good practice when writing an encyclopaedia. I can only repeat what I said before: these are very damaging allegations, and we need to cite sources that most readers of an encyclopaedia will consider to be pretty much beyond reproach. We do not as yet
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I was unable to find any information on the web about this from any trusted, disinterested source. This probably says more about my lack of patience and expertise with search engines than about the allegations, but I'd be grateful if somebody could provide some evidence - firstly that the BBC made
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The very idea of NPOV may seem absurd to trotskyites, who are drawn to this article with magnetic force, but the quality of the article is terrible. I don't want to start hacking and slashing (don't have the time now) but is anyone else interested in maybe doing a bit of a revamp and citation hunt
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have axes to grind about the WRP. Furthermore they are all organisations that everyday readers of an on-line encyclopaedia will consider to be somewhat less than credible. I did see that blog that you provide a link to, when I was trying to find some independent substantiation before. But it's
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Look, I'm sorry - I'm really not out to cause difficulties. I agree that if these allegations were made then if we leave them out the article is missing something very important. But how can somebody who's not in the know and who doesn't remember these allegations at the time be sure that they
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On a personal note, I was in the WRP's Young
Socialists prior to the split, have stayed in the Trotskyist left since then. The full truth about the WRPs finance will never come out: many documents were destroyed. I feel that the true financial scandal is the immense human cost paid by their own
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didn't turn up anything any more edifying. I really don't know anything at all about this, and I have no axe to grind either way, but it seems to me that if we are going to carry these extremely damaging allegations we need much more reliable, disinterested sources for them than this. Unless
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Not sure why you say "bad news". You may not believe me but I genuinely don't have an axe to grind about the WRP. I'm just concerned that this is an extremely serious allegation, for which we don't appear to have any proper corroboration. The sources cited so far all appear to be from
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on
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Sorry be bring bad news but... The ICFI's control commission reported that over £1,000,000 was paid to the WRP by Arab regimes and the PLO between 1975 and 1983: perhaps half that amount was paid to other IC sections. To see an extract, go
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When, a little later, the WRP disintegrated, an investigation was carried out by supporters of the
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Hello. Thanks for replying and for trying harder than me to find some sources for this. The first one of those links you supplied is to a site I know nothing about, which says "In March 1983, the Money
Programme
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Analysed by country, where it is possible to distinguish, the amounts are: Libya £542,267 Kuwait £156,500 Qatar £50,000 Abu Dhabi £25,000 PLO £19,997 Iraq £19,697 Unidentified or other sources £261,702
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I do think that
Warofdreams's rewite takes us forward. However, the investigation was not made by "supporters of the Workers Press group of former WRP members" but by a commission appointed by the
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is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with
Knowledge policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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OK, I've reinserted the paragraph, with DuncanBCS's correction and a WRP point-of-view. However, should anyone locate any other sources, please improve the article with them!
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for a bunch of the stuff on the trots? Alternatively, am I paid agent of the CIA, Kremlin, Bejing, and the zionists? Can we put a bunch of work in without being set on fire?
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anybody strongly objects, I propose to remove all references to allegations of WRP funding by Libya and/or Iraq until somebody produces some convincing corroboration.
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which it claimes WRP members were instructed to take of demonstrations of opponents of Saddam
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I met up with some of the Northites last week. They confirm all of this. They published much of this at the time in their old journal
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First find the citations, then start the work. If you're editing on Knowledge, then you can only work within its rules. --
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of what happened in the 1980s squares with my recollections. It gives dates and quotes. I see no reason to doubt them. --
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He was a member of the WRP's CC in the 1970's but of no importance. He is still of no importance come to think of it.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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1977 £46,208 1978 £47,784 1979 £347,755 1980 £173,671 1981 £185,128 1982 £271,217 1983 £3,400 1984 0 1985 0
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and the Youth Training Centres. These are te details: A list by year shows the following amounts coming in:
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such allegations, and secondly what exactly was said, by whom, and on what programme? Thanks.
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Someone told me that Gary Younge, the Guardian Journalist and author of
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If he is of no importance, why on earth did you bother to mention him?
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40:WikiProjects
1080:—Preceding
960:Warofdreams
908:Warofdreams
893:photographs
762:Warofdreams
746:It was the
693:Gary Younge
1276:Categories
1220:Report bug
880:Solidarity
635:References
1257:I agree.
1203:this tool
1196:this tool
861:News Line
778:purported
680:AmyNelson
201:Socialism
192:socialism
148:Socialism
1244:Grnrchst
1209:Cheers.—
1082:unsigned
1027:fair use
1011:fair use
758:Newsline
593:Articles
443:The Club
312:Politics
303:politics
253:Politics
1259:doktorb
1129:my edit
943:account
929:GrahamN
922:really
840:GrahamN
788:GrahamN
750:. See
738:GrahamN
653:34,382
422:Section
339:on the
228:on the
123:on the
30:C-class
1102:Duncan
947:Duncan
824:Duncan
650:34,382
601:1,676
586:2,613
573:1,024
566:Splits
560:5,140
545:5,162
532:5,235
519:2,840
506:6,437
493:2,374
478:2,876
463:5,278
450:3,524
437:1,244
424:total
36:scale.
1263:words
1238:into
1143:with
889:Iraqi
647:Total
608:Books
598:1,676
570:1,024
557:5,140
529:5,235
516:2,840
503:6,437
490:2,374
475:2,876
447:3,524
434:1,244
430:(Top)
419:count
1248:talk
1106:talk
1090:talk
1073:NPOV
1064:talk
1019:this
964:talk
924:were
912:talk
799:here
766:talk
684:talk
642:480
629:545
616:917
417:Byte
1177:RfC
1147:on
887:'s
753:or
639:480
626:545
613:917
331:Low
220:Low
115:Low
1278::
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42::
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