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Talk:TD-Gammon

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440: 1772:; It satisfies all the criteria in the "Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves". I'm not citing it as evidence of what expert players in general thought in 1995; I'm citing it as evidence of what Kit Woolsey thought was the best play in 1995, and this is not a self-serving or exceptional claim. That Kit Woolsey is a backgammon expert is established independently in the Knowledge article about him. 510: 22: 883: 74: 53: 870: 84: 1066:
completed game, and tweaking the evaluation function so it judges that board position to be closer in value to the following one. You can't do that until you have a board position with known value, and that's the final board position. To put that another way, what training value is there to back-propagate from if you don't know who won the game? —
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article). Note that the article states the w in the formula is the vector whose components are all the weights in the network, whereas the wiki page wording seems to imply that w is a single weight in the network (but then the formula wouldn't make sense, because the left-hand side would be a number and the right-hand side would be a vector).
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memory from the pre-TD-gammon 90s is that splitting play was generally already favored over slotting at most match scores. I'll search my backgammon library and see if I can find some citations for this. I also think the claim that everyone started playing the splitting move after TD-gammon is overstated. See for example
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suggests there are some inaccuracies in this article; specifically, the program was developed beyond its state in 1992, which appears to be what is described here, and incorporated features not described (a 3-ply search depth in some later versions). Also Tesauro appears to have concluded that the
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with i in range 1..4, and the formula should sum over i, according to the sentence "In cases where there are multiple output units, the total weight change is given by the sum of the weight changes due to each individual output unit." (the article is apparently explaining about both TD-Learning in
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Let's make sure we understand what's being said. First, the current article does not speak of a miracle look into the future. It says that the algorithm is given a whole game transcript and uses the final board position to prime back-propagation of the weights in the neural net (working backward,
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that are specifically about the article's topic. You've certainly persuaded me that the source specifically about TD-Gammon overstates TD-Gammon's influence on tournament play. The topic-specific source isn't reliable about this particular fact. In lieu of an authoritative book or article about
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I was playing tournament backgammon in the 90's, and I find the claims of the effect of TD-gammon on how experts played the opening rolls to be greatly overstated. The splitting play was the recommended play at least as far back as Magriel's book from 1976. Though fashions changed over time, my
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is the gradient of the function calculated by the network (the output of the network) with respect to the weights in the network. That function is noted Yk, and represents the possible outcome of game k (assumedly by giving that outcome a probability, though this isn't stated explicitly in the
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The latter interpretation agrees with my understanding of temporal-difference learning in general (though I am no expert). After re-reading those four paragraphs in the Tesauro article several times, I'm now favoring thetter interpretation for TD-Gammon, too (even though it's weird because the
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Tesauro himself explains: At the end of each game, a final reward signal z (containing four components as described previously) is given, based on the outcome of the game. Once again equation 1 is used to change the weights, except that the difference (z − Yf) is used instead of (Yt+1 − Yt).
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Are you sure that contradicts the article? If the article is wrong, by all means fix it, but I understand the incremental update after each move to occur in relation to the known final board position of the game. Applying the TD rule "after each move" means looking at each board position of a
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come from? I've found the writing on the learning algorithm to be pretty unclear. The current Knowledge article may well be wrong, but at least it's clear! Now, are you saying that the learning algorithm actually works forward, and on each turn, updates the weights in the neural net so its
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Uh oh, I just checked Scholarpedia and Tesauro's article appears to be gone. I couldn't find any article by Tesauro there. Can you suggest another place to look for the information you mentioned above, especially the point about hand-crafted features not being necessary?
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evaluations of previous board positions are closer to its evaluation of the current position? The only exception would be the final board position, which gets a special evaluation that is independent of the weights in the neural net (that is, "who actually won").
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hand-crafted features to the input were not necessary; the 40-hidden-node network he had used before adding them appears to have been too small, and he did not train the system for long enough to see its potential before moving on to including them.
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Normally when I see claims I don't believe in WIkipedia, I add a "citation needed", but I'm not quite sure what to do when the incorrect claims in the article are supported by a citation from a reputable source that is nonetheless inaccurate.
896: 1669:. The page history says that the article "expired and reverted to proposed status". It looks like excellent info, but I don't think we can cite it until Scholarpedia makes it official again. I just asked about getting it re-approved. — 920: 1014: 453: 282: 1168:
algorithm spends most of its time adjusting the weights without any input that's known to be correct). If you also think that's right, I'd say go ahead and edit the page! I can do it if you'd rather not. —
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The gradient of a multiple-variable function is a vector whose components are the partial derivatives of that function. I think both the wikipedia page and the article at are pretty clear:
230: 475: 308: 487: 996: 978: 463: 945: 932: 1632:, so please don't hesitate to add the new information to the page. Also, I see that I never got around to making the correction discussed above, if you'd like to do that, too. — 1314: 1231: 1002: 1694:, where world-class player Kit Woolsey says in 1995, after looking at rollouts from TD-gammon and other programs, that the slotting and splitting plays with 2-1 are equal. 1391: 256: 269: 243: 205: 1359: 972: 1251: 1008: 990: 365: 964: 346: 140: 1818: 725: 130: 1020: 327: 669: 1823: 958: 1813: 1057:
Step 2 of TD-Gammon is wrong. It didn't have to wait until the end of each game. That's one of the major advantages over Montecarlo-estimation. See
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for "Tesauro applied the nonlinear TD rule (11.1) fully incrementally, that is, after each individual move." —84.168.22.218, 20:51, June 12, 2010
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isn't really explained. I basically took Tesauro's wording, which is not clear: the paper does not explain what the board evaluation at turn
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Regarding correcting that, when I read the sources, the question in my mind is, where does the "reward signal" come from? In terms of
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already states for general TD: predict the future (preferable very exactly) and change your "past" model accordingly.
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Lastly, the article is stating that there are four outputs from the network, not just one. So the notation
1618: 837: 39: 1734:(1) Omit saying anything at all about TD-Gammon's influence on tournament play and backgammon theory. 1702: 1282: 1199: 1105: 711: 569: 1754:. Your thoughts? If you agree, please feel free to just dive in and add the source to the article. — 1706: 882: 1759: 1731:
computer backgammon's influence on tournament play and accepted theory, here are a couple options:
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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TD(lambda) does not take a miracle look into the future and looks at what the final result is.
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general and TD-Gammon specifically, hence the confusion). The complete formula would then be :
1364: 1146: 291: 252: 1746:, that source is a very nice find and is reliable enough. Option (2) gives a small risk of a 739: 278: 265: 239: 1192:
I finally rewrote the description of the learning algorithm. Hopefully it's now both clear
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Thanks for spotting this. Normally, each Knowledge article should only summarize
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http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/User:Gerald_Tesauro/Proposed/Td-gammon
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My feeling right now is that while citing the Usenet posting violates
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Fantastic! I'd say that Scholarpedia meets our criteria for a
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is slightly misleading, it probably should be something like
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accurate. Actually, I know it's not entirely clear, because
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I don't think citing the Woolsey Usenet Post violates
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Temporal-difference_learning
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Planet Half-Life
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