Talk:Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China/Archives/2024/June

1434:)I do believe there's quite enough independent Taiwan articles abound on Knowledge for those opposed so that the PRC's belief that Taiwan was never supposed to have separated could have its own stake on the internet. And this article itself is already riddled with sarcasm and dissenting voices that it barely holds true to its intention anyway. We have an article about Taiwan under the ROC and we have an article of Taiwan just as a piece of Earth. Do we really need to be arguing more about this? Taiwan under the ROC is there. If somebody doesn't want to accept that, that's their problem, no? So, what is this blather about this article's legitimacy? Its purpose is to serve as a footnote regarding what China, the PRC, basically the former/present sovereign of Taiwan, depending on viewpoints, believes. 1126:~~I'm of the opinion, the only neutral view is the facts. In terms of land, you'd have to go with historical facts as any word of mouth or verbal claim will only result in bias. Therefore, as known throughout history, Taiwan is the island known by the western identity of Formosa. I'm not sure, but I believe it was derived from Portugese. Formosa has a native populous of Taiwanese "Hakka" persons, but have, since the defeat of the ROC in 1949, also sheltered the refugees of the fallen party. Two outcomes drew from this event: One being that of the Chinese in the mainland which believes the ROC and the natives are and have always been part of China. One nation. The other outcome, that of the ROC and later the Democratic Progressive Party, believing that since 1949, Taiwan had become a sovereign state. 1468:

article observes NPOV by presenting the facts that are undisputed. It doesn't try to judge whether Taiwan is part of some large "China". It doesn't try to judge whether PRC claims to Taiwan are legitimate. It reports that the governing structures the PRC have set up for Taiwan don't govern anything and that the PRC doesn't actually control Taiwan. This is quite different from your examples of regions the PRC presides over but relinquishes direct control over. The PRC has never had any direct control over Taiwan that it could relinquish. Even the PRC's point of view recognizes this. When they refer to Taiwan's "local authorities", they mean the ROC government, not the "Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China" structures the PRC has set up.

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is answered) is very clear about the nature of this theoretical administration, then I don't think there is a problem. The need for this page comes from the PRC using the term in various settings to push their agenda. Someone seeing the term "Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China" will want to know what it is, and it makes sense to have this page to tell them. As for Soman's suggestion that we include more information about how the PRC stages the pretend government, that sounds like good information to include as the body of the article.

3618: 31: 3647: 3587: 812:, for various reasons. First of all, both Chinese governments (PRC and ROC) claim Taiwan as part of China. Moreover, there are several other articles on the Taiwan question in general. What this article would need is rather an expansion. How does the provincial administration 'in exile' function? Does it have a governing body? Who are the people at its helm? -- 2826:

province, ROC" and "Fujian province, PRC" can arguably be said to be co-existing and separate concepts. But the PRC has not set up a government of Taiwan, it does not maintain a "reserve" governor for Taiwan, and any statutory reference to Taiwan refers to it as a part of "China", which is consistent with and not contradictory to the ROC legal position.

1518:

in the article. Having an initial sentence that pretends that Taiwan is a just like Hunan or Shandong, followed by a later sentence explaining difference, is insufficient. As I explained above, we wouldn't start an article on MacBeth with a first line that treats him as a real historical figure and only later explain that he was a fictional character.

582:

a delimitation is needed here, and perhaps the best would be to weed out large parts of the article. This article should deal with the actually existing institutional framework of the PRC province (how it's 'exile' apparatus functions, etc.), leaving the broader political discussion about PRC claims and cross-strait relations to other articles. --

1916:

China normally calls "Taiwan Province" that focuses on the PRC, or do they just call it "China's Taiwan Province"? If the former, we should rename. If the latter, we should dump this page and just mention on the "Taiwan Province" page that the China maintains a faux administrative apparatus as a way to promote their claim.

1259:

to appease China. But there is no such province. There is a Taiwan Province governed as part of the larger country Taiwan(formally "Republic of China"), but there is no Taiwan Province of the People's Republic of China other than the legal fiction that is their administrative apparatus that doesn't administer anything.

1059:~~AMERICAN MIGHT, you seem to like spinning things with biased politics. The DPP is a pro-separation party, one of the three well-knowns, in fact, and also has a well-known mention that its latest President was a public enemy of Taiwan. Now, with Ma Yinjiu, a member of the ROC, what say you? Your quote means nothing. 2901:

straight forward one - the PRC claims Taiwan province, and does not recognise the ROC's boundary changes, rather than the more elaborate construct that there is a separate Taiwan Province of the PRC. If anyone does not agree, please read this thread in its entirety and respond with reliable sources. --

2881:

as part of China is sufficient. Any of the pre-1949 Taiwan province boundaries/admin. divisions are just history and can go into the history oof Taiwan/Taiwan provinnce, or history of ROC. I don't see how there's any importance of documenting these old divisions for the general public other than some

1864:

This article seems to basically cover two things: 1. the administrative sub-units of Taiwan Province as recognised by the PRC, and 2. the provision for representation of Taiwan in China's parliament. Both topics are too small to make separate articles, and together they are rather incongruous (if you

1685:

Taiwan province currently administered by the ROC, but the precise borders of which it disputes. That is to say "Taiwan province ROC" and "Taiwan province PRC" are not two separate concepts. They are a single concept, "Taiwan province", which is currently administered by the ROC, and which 1. the PRC

1463:

What independent Taiwan articles do you speak of? None of them are able to treat Taiwan as the independent nation it is. Instead, they follow NPOV and either don't dispute the claim that Taiwan is part of China or they provide both points of view. There are quite a few articles that go too far the

1258:

The reason for this article is that in some circumstances the phrase "Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China" will appear either as an attempt by China to cause a belief to be instilled by repeated usage of a phrase (see "A lie repeated often enough comes to be seen as truth") or out of a desire

921:

There are some basic confusions here. To call Taiwan 'a country' is incorrect. There is no 'Republic of Taiwan', there is a Republic of China which claims Taiwan as one of its provinces. Both ROC and PRC claim to be the legitimate government of all of China, the PRC claims over Taiwan are by no means

829:

Presumably people don't come to the page just to read the title. They at least read the first sentence to answer the question "What is Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China?" So as long as the first complete thought of the first line (that is, up until the point someone may think the question

3764:

Since the PRC does not recognise the ROC as legitimate, PRC government and media refers to some ROC government offices and institutions using generic description which does not imply endorsement of the ROC's claim to be a legitimate government of either Taiwan or China. The precise replacements used

2825:

Where government A claims territory X actually controlled by government B, that does not automatically mean there are thus two separate and distinct Xs. The situation is different if government A actually has made provisions for a separate administrative infrastructure for territory X - thus "Fujian

2085:

What is this "faux administrative apparatus" of which you speak? There is no governor-in-pretence or county chiefs-in-waiting. The so-called "Taiwan representatives" in parliament don't even pretend to represent the interests of the residents of Taiwan Province, but rather the interests of people of

1934:

I have never heard the PRC officially calling Taiwan "Taiwan Province of the People's Republic of China" or "Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China" in the last decade. Sometimes, I still hear the PRC calling Taiwan "China's Taiwan", "Taiwan, China", "China's Taiwan province" or "China's Taiwan

1752:

The way I see the concepts, the hawkish members of the CPC would like to see "Taiwan Province" become ruled by the PRC, but this is the same Taiwan Province currently ruled by the ROC. You may quibble about my "unease" if you like, but the current scheme seems to me to mis-represent the situation as

1517:

The very title of the article carries a very strong implication that Taiwan is a province of the People's Republic of China. The title is very un-NPOV, not surprising since the whole thing was set up by the PRC for propaganda purposes, and it is important to balance that problem as soon as possible

730:

I happened to press 'Enter' a bit to soon before my last edit summary was completed. I removed the 'Terminology' section, since it fits better in overall articles of the political status of Taiwan. This article should be limited to the institutional framework of the PRC provincial administration 'in

581:

Again, this is not fiction. The province exists in the administrative apparatus of the PRC, it sends delegates to the People's Congress, etc.. Thus wordings like 'theoretical' are unsuitable. Other wordings in the lead are quite clear on that the PRC has no control at all over the territory. I think

2658:

The politics of the Taiwan issue is another matter. The subject is the 'Taiwan Province', which has a real-life existence within the administrative framework of the PRC. The PRC has a provincial administration in 'exile' for the province in question. The opening sentence clearly states that PRC has

2420:

Even after the reference is found, there needs to be some balance. For example, wouldn't Taiwan's government (ROC) have to give up its ability to engage in independent foreign relations as a sovereign nation? Wouldn't Taiwan lose any claim to foreign help should the PRC reneg on it's promises and

1723:

As for being "uneasy", I'm uneasy with an awful lot of stuff in Knowledge. But you have to deal with things the way they are, not the way you wish they were. Taiwan Province, ROC is a real thing with a functioning government that exercises power, while Taiwan Province, PRC is something some people

1501:

I think these phrases are over-emphasising and I think that's why some people think that they are sarcastic phrases. Why can't we just state the facts as is and have a statement saying "claimed province.............. has no control". I think that's pretty clear to anyone who reads the sentence that

1030:

This is of course something many inhabitants of Taiwan would dispute. If a future DPP government (please note that elections were held, in which DPP were defeated) would declare a 'Republic of Taiwan', then we would have to deal with that issue. For now, ROC is the only political unit with de facto

999:

On September 30, 2007, the ruling Democratic Progressive Party approved a resolution asserting separate identity from China and called for the enactment of a new constitution for a "normal country". It also called for general use of "Taiwan" as the island's name, without abolishing its formal name,

2853:

My understanding of the reason for this page's existence was that the claims made by China that such a province existed could send someone looking for information about this mythical place. I think you make a fair point that usage of the term was ever demonstrated. A google search turned up only

1531:

I can understand the hesitation to use current wording "theoretical" because the meaning is not precise as we would like. We should look at alternative words but we need to find something that fits into the first clause of the first sentence rather than something that only appears as a follow on.

1336:

One more thing. It is like the Mainland Area of the Republic of China. Mainland China is claimed by the ROC but the ROC does not have any control over it. I wouldn't call the "Mainland Area of the ROC" a "theoretical Area of the ROC". It is legally a "claimed area of the ROC". The ROC just doesn't

298:

This article describes something real; it describes the structures in place in China to support their claim that Taiwan is a province of China. There are real people whose job is to attend National People's Congress meetings as "representatives" of Taiwan. Even though these people are just going

1915:

I did a Google search on "中华人民共和国台湾省" and only came up with about 9000 hits, with none of the earliest ones having Xinhua or PRC gov addresses. "Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China" came up with less than 700 hits. Before merging, perhaps we should consider a rename. Is there name that

1388:

Again, having the fictional (better word?) nature of this entity that exists on paper front and center is important. Perhaps we should restructure the opening to not follow the standard "XXX is..." that most articles use. "Although the PRC has never controlled Taiwan, it has created a governing

1226:

We need this article because Taiwan is commonly recognised, acknowledged etc to be part of China. I don't think we need to say if this POV is right or wrong but there is enough public interest for this article to be there. But I totally accept that we need to point out that the PRC has no control

606:

fiction, that is to say, something having to do with laws and government. The article is not about "Taiwan Province, mainland China"; the article is about "Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China". The NPOV may not be an issue because the map doesn't say whether Taiwan is part of the PRC or

1437:

Besides, at least the PRC has its autonomous regions that retain minority culture and self-government. Hong Kong still has its own governing body, which then judging from the argument that PRC has no control over Taiwan's affairs, would still not discount its assumed sovereignty over it. The PRC

1401:

That the PRC doesn't control Taiwan, and that the "governing structure" for "Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China" doesn't actually govern are indisputable. That a "governing structure" does not govern and has never governed is not only key information, it is information that needs to be

1351:

At this point in time I would call the "mainland area of the ROC" mostly theoretical ("mostly" only because Taiwan does control Kinmen and Matsu which are often considered part of mainland China). I'm not sure the history of the term, but an article on the Mainland Area of the ROC might be on a

1196:

While legitimacy of the PRC's claim to Taiwan is greatly disputed, the PRC's control of Taiwan is not. The "administrative" nature of "Taiwan Province, Republic of China" has as much credibility as the flat-earth society. The key attribute of this "administrative province" is that it exists to

1467:

Regardless of whether there are articles that say Taiwan is part of China, NPOV is supposed to be observed in each article. If other articles need to be fixed you can attempt to do so, but the failures of other articles to observer NPOV doesn't mean that this article should fail as well. This

1200:

The very existence of this article is borderline POV. The only reason for its existence is so that when someone stumbles across "Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China" they can look it up and find out what it is and not be confused by the natural tendency to believe that something called

2821:

Aside from other issues, his article is based on what seems to be a novel and controversial conception that somehow the PRC conceptualises a "Taiwan Province, PRC" which is separate and distinct from the "Taiwan Province" under the ROC. The article does not provide sufficient evidence to judge

1222:

Thats why I proposed "claimed province". I didn't say administrative, because seriously, what administrative when the PRC doesn't any control? "Administrative" is definitely the wrong word here. I thought my proposed sentence was pretty clear already: the PRC claims Taiwan as a province but it

2900:

Right. Several years later, I have been bold and recast the article to get rid of the OR that there are two Taiwan Provinces. The intervening years have not improved at all the basis of support for that notion. In the absence of support, we must conclude that the correct situation is the more

2829:

The position is not well described as "the ROC has a Taiwan province and the PRC has an imaginery Taiwan province which does not include the boundary changes post-1949". The better description (which does not require a leap of imagination) is that "the PRC claims the ROC's Taiwan province and

1295:

This I agree. I should have qualified my statement at first place. Sorry. I can accept your argument that this can be a redirect page to the "Taiwan Province" page then just we simply just talk about PRC's claim, like what we have done in the "Taiwan" article. But I don't believe the proposed

1207:

I'm not completely satisfied with the word "theoretical", but "fictional" didn't work because the structure actually exists even if it doesn't actually administer anything. It is used here as a way of contrasting "theory" and "practice". "In theory" the structure administers Taiwan, but "in

2109:

I totally disagree with the merger proposal. The 2 separate articles one for each side namely PRC Taiwan Province and Taiwan Province ROC as it stands is perfect. The reasoning is PRC claims Taiwan as a province, therefore it should have an wiki article to indicate its claim and its notional

1600:

One such Knowledge fork is Wikinfo, whose major difference from Knowledge is, in fact, its approach to content forks: multiple articles covering a subject from different POVs are actually preferred to Knowledge's goal of a single article covering the subject from the neutral point of view.

242:

The PRC claims the ROC as being part of its territory, so it seems correct to have articles describing those claims. This one describes how the PRC subdivides part of the ROC. Similarly, Japanese subdivisions of claims of Russian-controlled areas are described (although very briefly) at

1526:"governing structure in exile" is defined by M-W as "the state or a period of forced absence from one's country or home b: the state or a period of voluntary absence from one's country or home" and the administrative structure in the PRC cannot actually call Taiwan it's "country or home". 1373:

The problem I have with the word theoretical is it is an ambiguous word: "What theory is that?" That's why I just described it a "claimed province...... no control". The essence of my proposed statement was 1. it is claimed by the PRC and 2. the PRC has no control. What do you think of

1266:

begins "Gandalf is a fictional character that appears in the novels..." just as it should. It would wrong to start off "Gandalf was the leader of the Council of the Wise and trusted confidant of the kings of Rohan and Gondor..." and not mention that he is a fictional character until

328:. The separate Taiwan, ROC and Taiwan, PRC articles are NPOV in that they both describe government structures and what affect those structures actually have. Merging the two would suggest that they have something in common when they have little in common beyond their names. 2801:

appears to suggest that the PRC government has recognized the cities' mergers. I'd like some further discussion on this. If I hear no objections, I plan to link this map and write a paragraph suggesting that the PRC position is no longer "16 counties and seven cities."

1680:

I've always been a bit uneasy about the conception of this article. The PRC does not have a "government-in-exile" for Taiwan, nor, in my view, does it claim a "Taiwan province" that is conceptually distinct from the Taiwan province of the ROC. Instead, what it claims is

2619:) so we don't need a fourth one. If the subject are the claims of the PRC over Taiwan, then we need to rename the article. But again, these claims are already fully documented in the other three articles, so there would be no point having a separate article for it. 1171:"Taiwan Province of the People's Republic of China (simplified Chinese: 台湾省; traditional Chinese: 臺灣省 or 台灣省; pinyin: Táiwān shěng) is a theoretical administrative province of the People's Republic of China (PRC), covering an area over which the PRC has no control." 1605:

Both of your suggestions start with "Taiwan Province of the People's Republic of China refers to a claimed province of the People's Republic of China (PRC)". This is problematic as it says Taiwan is "of the People's Republic of China" with is the very subject of

365:

Are the books in the "further reading" specific enough to the topic of China's supposed province to be listed here? Based on their names they seem to be about the general relationship between Taiwan and China, not the specific aspect that is the topic of this

2830:

moreover claims the ROC's boundary changes post-1949 have not been effective". The two might be more or less logically equivalent in a philosophical sense, but the latter is descriptive of facts while the former is the result of somewhat fanciful deduction.

150:

Similarly, there are plenty of disclaimers all over articles about Taiwan and the Republic of China etc, that indicate the PRC claims them. This article is simply redundant. Itis not necessary for this article to be merged, it should simply be deleted.

1712:

I'm not sure what the unease is about. The article doesn't say "government-in-exile", although the thirteen delegates elected to the National People's Congress are certainly close to that. They are in exile from Taiwan and they are representatives to

3270:

I have corrected the list of epithets used by the PRC for officials and government bodies. An examination of the sources will show that these epithets are intended as descriptions, rather than invented, substituted names. They are used uncapitalised.

2633:

I agree with Laurent. These issues are already fully outlined in the other articles. Readers can be redirected to those sections. The unmerged version only serves the purpose of separating the issue to show PRC's view, ignoring the situation as a

2659:

no control of the area that is claimed as part of the province in question. This is not the only case were there are governments-in-exile. That an article on the subject exists doesn't mean that Knowledge takes sides regarding recognition. --

1175:

Theoretical? What theory is that? Constitutional legal theory? International legal theory? I think the sentence is pretty clear already that it is a province within the claimed territory of the PRC that it has no control over. So I propose:-

320:, I believe that would be confusing. This article describes something that happens in the PRC. It really has very little to do with either Taiwan the island, Taiwan the nation, or Taiwan the province administered by the ROC, just as the 3003:

section is pure speculation. Does the PRC even have laws regulating the local administrative divisions of Taiwan? If not, than that section has to be deleted. If that section is deleted, then I think this could easily be merged with the

1553:"The very title of the article carries a very strong implication that Taiwan is a province of the People's Republic of China. The title is very un-NPOV, not surprising since the whole thing was set up by the PRC for propaganda purposes" 902:

imperialist claims. Since some reliable sources will claim Taiwan is a province of China, we can't just ignore the Chinese imperialist editors who want to insist that we not call the claim "fiction" no matter how accurate the term is.

93:

This is a term not an actual entity. It is a political term used by the PRC and should be described as a specific term used by the PRC. Everything else is overlapping with other articles and if you have issues with that, please see

3710:

I don't understand the purpose of such images. They seem at best decorative, at worst misleading. If there must be a photo, and I'm not sure there must, a photo of the province's representation in the NPC would make far more sense.

1930:

Taiwan is officially known to the PRC as "Taiwan province", but nowadays it is much more common for the PRC to call Taiwan "Taiwan Area" or less frequently just simply "Taiwan" in mass media as well as in official statements and

565:

province of the PRC" because the PRC does not in fact "administer" the area it is claiming as "Taiwan Province". Since the PRC has no control over Taiwan, Taiwan is a province of the PRC only in theory, not in established fact.

2375:

It's a statement by Deng Xao Ping. That was his offer to Taiwan if Taiwan would reunify with the mainland on the basis of One Country Two Systems. I am busy right now but I will find the reference later. It is a very well known

2833:

Of more concern is that the article claims that the PRC actively "uses" the term "Taiwan Province, PRC" without supplying real evidence of such use. It would seem that the concept being described here is at best an original

2039:

In the sense that it is an integral part of the administrative of the most populous state in the world. For the record, I also find the now defunct ROC provincial administrations-in-exile representing the mainland notable.

2123:

Having separate articles may not be the best option politically by some people but it describes the situation very well and it should be left at that. There are two different notions of Taiwan province on each side of the

1558:

Well, I don't think about this article from a propaganda point of view. I believe the PRC is entitled to have an article to state their POV, although this POV has to be balanced by others. Let me show you another example,

1270:

If the article is not about the administrative structure set up by the PRC, but is really about the land and the people that the PRC claims to govern, then this should not be a separate article but should redirect to the

1397:

is and administrative division of the PRC governing Taiwan. In practice, the PRC has never controlled Taiwan and the structures are propaganda tools for reinforcing the PRC's claims to be the legitimate government of

1197:

promote a fiction that the PRC rules Taiwan (and even the PRC doesn't believe that fiction because when they refer to the "Taiwan authorities" they're referring to the ROC, not to their own administrative structure).

3522:

Are you asking what people think about adding images or what people think about adding images copied from an unrelated article with a similar name or what people think about the specific images you’ve copied over?

3294:

article anyway), and the area of the province as claimed (which cannot). I suggest the panel can be deleted in its entirety, if the area is worth keeping, it can be inserted into the section discussing boundaries.

1366:

It was just China. The division of the ROC into the Mainland Area and the Taiwan Area was done by Lee. There were some divisions within mainland China during WWII. But there was no such thing as "Mainland Area" in

219:. The PRC has never set foot in Taiwan. Therefore, it is completely illegitimate and unreasonable to have a "Taiwan Province, PRC" when it doesn't exist. It is only a fantasy made up by the Communist government. 143:

I agree that there is no reason for this article to exist. Knowledge may as well have articles titled "California, Mexico" or "Texas, Mexico" since some Mexicans claim that these areas should be part of Mexico.

1062:

Also, sovereignty, even established and accepted sovereigns, has been challenged before. Hawaii? So, noting that the ROC had claimed to be the sovereign entity of Taiwan does not make it the end of the subject.

3073:

The section "Politically Designated Names," while very interesting in its own right, doesn't seem to really belong to this article. It doesn't deal with the PRC government of Taiwan Province, but rather with

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if there were two conceptual entities, one "Taiwan Province, PRC", and one "Taiwan Province, ROC", when in reality it is the same conceptual entity the ownership (to use a loose term) of which is contested.

946:

Taiwan is a country. The Republic of China is a state. The Taiwanese might hold a constitutional convention or even stage a coup to get rid of the "Republic of China", but they will still remain the same

1523:

I guess I can see the objections to "on paper" and "governing structure in exile". "on paper" is probably too strong because there are real people off paper whose job it is to pretend to represent Taiwan.

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instituted by the National People's Congress of PRC stipulate that "After the country is reunified peacefully, Taiwan may practice systems different from those on the mainland and enjoy a high degree of

2938:" and those in blue represent areas claimed but not controlled by the "PRC", then the whole map should be in blue. The "Taiwan Province" as imagined by the "PR China" is completely under control of the 2089:

Sure, the fact that the PRC claims Taiwan Province or that the ROC still maintains the Committee for Mongolian and Tibetan affairs is *interesting*, but it is not notable like an actual province is. --

602:

The caption of the map has switched back and forth between saying "mainland China" and "People's Republic of China". I believe the latter term is more appropriate here because we are talking about a

898:

Knowledge's standard is published supposedly-reliable sources, not truth. While the truth may be obvious here, China has successfully pressured many otherwise reliable sources into accepting her

3124: 1093:

decided to remove both tags. If you were to take a look at his user page you could clearly tell that he is from china. Which makes me think he is not staying with wikipedia's neutral pov policy.

1776:", talking about Greek claims to it, any differences in Greek definition of it, and how the Greeks would like to see it displayed one day? That would not make sense. It makes more sense to have 2752:

Why does what the ROC gov't did matter, since this is the PRC article? How is it outdated? Just because the ROC does something has no bearing on the PRC administrative construction of Taiwan.

80:

I see no reason why this should be a seperate page other than someone wanting to make a political point; surely the situation would be made clearer to a reader by including it within the

2773:

It would ignore the ROC cities' mergers (in which case the article is not per se outdated, but a sentence should probably be added to reflect that it was ignoring the ROC's position); or

2776:

It would acknowledge the mergers and recast the four new cities in the same way that it had semi-recognized the promotions of Taipei and Kaohsiung by altering their geographic areas?

3682:

I mean, these are all famous places located with the PRC's claim, and they are coincidentally also located in the territory that the ROC currently controls, so I don't see why not.

3031:

is also shown in the same map and label as part of the map of Taiwan from the Taiwan Affairs Office. I am going to hide that section for now until more information is available. —

881:

You can't say that a country is in theory under the rule of another country when it clearly is not, but actually an established sovereign country with its own national government.

258:

Agree with Stefan2, this article is not about Taiwan, it is about what the PRC claims being part of its territory. Whether or not PRC actually control the province is irrelevant.

2590:

Sorry for being absent from the discussion. The article isn't a fork, it deals with a specific subject that is notable enough to have its own article. I'm reverting the merge. --

1720:

article, is an administrative division for governing. The governments of the ROC and PRC are certainly distinct even if some may argue that the countries they represent are not.

1620:

is an area claimed but never controlled by the People's Republic of China. It is currently governed by the Republic of China." would be a better start and more in line with the

1569:"Taiwan Province of the People's Republic of China refers to a claimed province of the People's Republic of China (PRC) covering an area administered by the Republic of China" 1566:"Taiwan Province of the People's Republic of China refers to a claimed province of the People's Republic of China (PRC) covering an area over which the PRC has no control"; or 17: 3399:. Given the rather unusual circumstances (another country claiming a de facto independent country as one of its own provinces), the proposed name would look very weird. -- 4003: 3858: 3691: 3574: 3546: 3504: 47: 2352:

will be established in Taiwan. In this case, the government of PRC may not station its garrison in Taiwan, and the government of Taiwan may preserve its garrison. The

2056:

If its notability stems entirely from being part of something else, then perhaps the information about that faux administration should be merged into the PRC article.

3992: 766:

I still think that we should change the name of the article itself, Because it still makes me and maybe others that it sill is the property of the PRC not the Roc.

299:

through the motions, they are in fact going through the motions and those motions are referred to by the PRC government frequently enough to make an article useful.

154:

Quite frankly I can't see why it wasn't simply deleted when first put up. It also sets a very poor precedent for other Wiki articles about other places in dispute.

1108:

you are from the US, Which makes me think you are not staying with wikipedia's neutral pov policy considering the political inclinations of your country of origin

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I think, if it was stated this way, there should be no dispute as this is all fact and you can argue against the facts all you'd like, but that won't change them.

3047:

Looking at government websites and concluding that what is displayed there must be the official borders of Taiwan Province of the People's Republic of China is

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not. The map may be interpreted either way. Perhaps the caption should say "Taiwan in relation to areas under the control of the People's Republic of China".

3372: 3146: 3082:. I cleaned up the English and clarified a few points as much as I could, but I didn't want to move this to another article on my own without asking first. 3000: 2770:

It's precisely this that the article may be outdated. The question is this — and I have insufficient information to answer this myself: is the PRC position:

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The term used in most press releases and statements is to refer to the ROC as a "local authority". An example of the PRC view towards the ROC can be found in

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does not recognize Taipei, Kaohsiung, Taichung, Tainan and, New Taipei as Municipalities it only recognize Taiwan as a province. Also notice how part of the

2340:", the government of PRC advocates that if the mainland China and Taiwan are reunified, the "administrative region" which has more autonomous power than the 2009:

I oppose a merger. The PRC province structure has an administrative apparatus (albeit without territorial control), and is definately notable of its own. --

2283:, and not as a country. We can't just leave it in 5 different articles, as I think that would be much more confusing than discussing it in a long article. 1967:

It sounds like we should put the information in the Taiwan Province page. I've added a "merge" tag to the article to see if anyone else wants to discuss.

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No one said the PRC isn't claiming Taiwan as being part of it. But having this article as its own is not appropriate. The claim should be mentioned in the

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It's outdated because, if the PRC has taken any official positions on whether it will "update" its view of Taiwanese administrative divisions in light of

1746:, to me, something conceptually separate which "some people believe should exist, but doesn't". It doesn't exist, nor does anyone believe it should exist. 1872:" in the first place. The logical place for them to go would be under a section titled "PRC views on Taiwan Province" or "PRC claims on Taiwan Province". 1141:

Taiwan was part of China as a province until 1949 and its ownership has been disputed since, either staying a province or becoming a nation. —Preceding

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be administered by the ROC, and which 2. the ROC says has the borders defined under its laws while the PRC says has the borders defined under its laws.

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I dont' think there is any sarcasm in this article either. But I think the "theoretical administrative........ has no control" quite over emphasising.

247:. If someone in Mexico claims part of the USA, then I guess someone could write a page about that, as long as someone digs up the necessary sources. ( 2266:

It is not important why people think we move it, but we must move it to reflect the legal status, not the agreed status, as Knowledge does not run by

481:(ROC). The People's Republic of China claims that Taiwan is part of China, that the PRC succeeded the ROC as the sole legitimate authority in all of 401: 2977: 2536:

PR China still claims the territory and runs an illegitimate shadow government in their country. The provinces are divided up on pre-1949 standards.

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political entity. It talks about nothing. I've been to Taiwan on bussiness. It's nothing like Red China. And I am not even Chinese, I am Russian. --

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would make things confusing is a false argument. If the article was confusing then that would only be because the situation itself was confusing.

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The fictional nature of the administration is at the core of the topic and should be front and center, not just part of a later descriptive clause.

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are not officially designated, so the politically designated names for Taiwan have small variations across different source from within the PRC.

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Another context I can think of is the UN which officially refers to Taiwan as "Taiwan, Province of China" (not "Taiwan, Province of the PRC"). --

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No, it is not. It is primarily recognized as part of China in diplomatic circles. Otherwise it is commonly recognized as a separate country.

549:(ROC). The People's Republic of China claims that Taiwan is part of China, that the PRC succeeded the ROC as the sole legitimate authority in 4025: 3847: 2877:. Is there really any need to have an article on ssomething that doesn't EXIST? Other than stating that PRC claims Taiwan Province/the whole 2563:, as I agree this article was a POV fork and shouldn't have been created. The claims of the PRC over Taiwan are already fully documented in 1066:

As I noted just below, if we could just use the facts and not spin details with any politics, there shouldn't be an issue here. —Preceding

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area". In other words, they have stopped using "PRC" when they talk about Taiwan. More information about this is at the PRC section of the

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other way in claiming that Taiwan is part of China despite NPOV, but I haven't seen any survive for long saying Taiwan isn't part of China.

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Could you explain what the "specific subject" is according to you? If the subject is Taiwan then we already have three articles about it (

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

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I haven't seen "Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China" in official print from China. I think I would prefer to see something like "

1370:"Kinmen and Matsu" are commonly considered as part of the Taiwan Area, and they are definied to be within the Taiwan Area in law as well. 385:

I don't think I've ever read the PRC refering to the ROC as "provincial" authorities. Even doing so would give the ROC some legitimacy.

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On the other hand, this article isn't really about the claims, it is really about the fictional province. Anyone have any suggestions?

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that Taiwan is a province of the People's Republic's of China provinces. For the Taiwan Province that currently exists as ruled by the

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little firmer ground because prior to 1949 the ROC did control the mainland area, but I don't know if that's what it was called then.

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For the benefit of other users in this discussion, I will paste the images that are the subject of this discussion on the talk page:

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is an internationally disputed claim, but the way it is stated is pretty NPOV. Similarly should we just start the article like this?

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Last time I checked The mexican governemnt does not still claim the SW USA. The PRC government claims Taiwan not just a few chinese.

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I'm not real happy with either. The first suggests that the province really exists. But it doesn't. Taiwan Province, ROC exists.

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A better caption would be "Areas claimed by PRC as its Taiwan Province". That relates better to the core subject of the article. --

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The Taiwan Province ROC wiki article as it stands for who is ACTUALLY (physically} administering the province which is the ROC.

1292:"It is primarily recognized as part of China in diplomatic circles. Otherwise it is commonly recognized as a separate country." 3290:

The side panel contains almost no useful information, except perhaps for the various pronunciations (which can be found in the

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rule over Taiwan. Saying that China's claim over Taiwan (be it PRC or ROC) are 'imperialist' is like calling Spanish claims on

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If you merge the articles, you politicize the content and it becomes a controversial issue for others to vandalize and create

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The Taiwan Affairs Office seems to recognize the existing (post-2010) local boundaries. It seems that all the content in the

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The entire section is original research, and the spellings are incorrect! Someone needs to fix it, for intelligence's sake!

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