Talk:USFL draft - Knowledge (XXG)

1985:

order for the USFL draft is set in stone."). You've got HBCU Gameday in the wrong list ("Players selected in the USFL draft will be given the opportunity..."). You've got Sportskeeda in the wrong list – it's lowercasing except in the headline ("In the USFL draft held last season, 280 players were chosen" and "What is the difference between the NFL draft and the USFL draft?" and "The USFL draft will not involve any trades"). DBusiness is only lowercase outside of the headline ("players can request USFL draft eligibility once they are two years out of high school"). Pittsburgh Tribune-Review has lowercase in its headline. The linked Sports Illustrated article doesn't contain either version of the phrase at all. Many of the ones in your uppercase list only contain the phrase in their headline, and many publications use title case for headlines. Overall, it looks like a rather mixed bag. To me it looks like your own links are convincing for lowercase. —⁠ ⁠

2513:). Exactly who considers what a proper name out of these kinds of categories, why, and with what bright lines (if any) varies by thinker, and there's no global consensus on it. For many if not most definitions of the concept, having a unique referent in the world is irrelevant ("Michael" is a proper name despite there being millions of Michaels), but having a specific and unique referent within the particular context is usually a factor, though it may be a group referent, e.g. "Turks". Some definitions would actually exclude that, though, or even anything that can take a plural form. There really, really is not actual real-world agreement on what "proper name" means and what qualifies. 2568:, since we just have a rule to capitalize only what is near-universally capitalized in the indy RS material, and use lowercase otherwise, even when capitalization is pretty frequent. That is, we are sidestepping all of the thorny philosophy-of-names questions entirely. Or trying to hard to do so; various editors keep dragging proper-naming philosophy matters back into such discussions, either because their educational background has inculcated them with specific ideas on the topic, or because they believe it will help them get the capitalization they subjectively want for some topic as a signifier of importance. 2439:. If I publish a recipe called "SMcCandlish's Sandwich" then that would be a title of a published/creative work, and as such a proper name (though in some citation styles it would be required to be rendered "SMcCandlish's sandwich" in sentence case), and taking quotation marks as a minor work. But the underlying sandwich type you can make from the recipe would just be an SMcCandlish sandwich, if you put the name to it. If I trademarked a commercially produced product, another form of proper name, then you might buy SMcCandlish's Sandwiches® in bulk at the supermarket. 2641:

Judicial branch of the U.S. government, and there are many other easily thought-of examples where official names greatly transcend the argument of "is 60% enough for upper-case, 70%?". Weight should be given to commonly-known official names as an equal factor to textual source casing, especially when those official names can be shown to be essentially the publicly-known common name. Language of the guideline should be changed to reflect this (what would be the steps to do this?)

2481:, etc., for how the style varies a lot dependending on whether it's a stand-alone work or a fragment, whether the name/title is original (a "true" title), a conventional names scholars and the public have agreed on, a descriptive or classifying designator assigned by academics, and so on; I'm not sure that WP should go along with the level of variety on this that is preferred by some off-site writers in that field, since it may be confusing for readers, but we seem stuck with it. 206: 1267:

doubt they're putting much thought into it at all. I searched "2023 USFL Draft" on Google and it looks like some sources do have "2023 USFL draft" in the bodies of the articles, even if it's not the majority. The style of player pages would look odd if we had 2023 NFL draft, and 2023 USFL Draft in the same article, which is how it is in some articles right now. I understand both sides of the capitalization debate though. I'm used to both "d" and "D".

2293:

Siamese cat" and "a seal-point Siamese cat", not "a Seal-Point Siamese cat"; etc., etc. There are writers and publishers out in the world who like to capitalize many things like that, but WP is not among them. Simply being more specific does not magically create proper names, and tends to have the opposite effect. "Buckingham Palace" may be a proper name but "first toilet in the second bathroom on the third floor of Buckingham Palace" is not.

1105:– I'm actually stunned by the opposition, as I had mentioned I expected this to be unopposed after having already debunked BeanieFan11's silly observations on the modern ones elsewhere, and given the overwhelming majority lowercase usage in sources for the older ones. So is this just another case of sports fans like to cap their stuff, and guidelines be damned? Do we really have to waste time on such things yet again? 82: 64: 2301:

together a chimera argument, fusing such a notion to completely unrelated matters of capitalization conventions, which actually have no connection of any kind to any philsophy-of-names positions. I guess my essay is a failure, since commingling philosophy notions of what "proper name" means with linguistics matters like capitalization conventions in a language is what every word of that essay urges against doing.

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upper case, you'll find lowercase examples, e.g. "How does the USFL draft work?" in the Sporting News article and "The inaugural USFL draft ..." as the opening sentence in one of the WVTM13 articles. You have WVTM13 listed twice, by the way. Most of the TV stations are affiliates of the same networks found elsewhere in your lists. USFL News Hub (which doesn't look independent) is actually using

2467:. How to handle capitalization, italics, etc., are variable matters of convention (some of it conflicting between fields). The more often they are treated as if titles by sources then the more likely we'll be to capitalize them and give them italics or quotation marks for what sort of work they are, following source usage, though WP may not have complete consistency on this. E.g. we do 300: 166: 2517:

whether something takes a "the" is entirely a matter of incidental convention, determined on a case-by-case basis by extraneous factors that have nothing to do with the type of name or referent – it varies by region/dialect on some matters, by the accident of the words constructing the name and their order and what grammatical structure(s) they form ("

305: 1036: 909: 2257:). To put it another way, a much, much more significant piece of upcoming American political theatre is the 2024 US presidential election, but it is not "The 2020 US Presidential Election". One cannot just capitalize stuff (on WP, anyway) simply because you think something's meaningful, impactful, important, noteworthy, popular, etc. 2756:

writing rules that do not exist, to the point that they are prepared to tell people how they are supposed to think. Describing and event with a description, or naming an event by giving it a name, reflects the authors perspective and thinking style, and English is a permissive language, unlike others.

1123:

like it's "always" capped. So even I was suprised when it was pointed out that ESPN.com actually uses lowercase "NFL draft" (but that's immaterial to this RM, it only matters how sources treat "USFL /raft"). Then the MOS can be hard for non-regulars to grasp. So I try to place relevant excerpts for

2777:

Most of that source use discussion is about the modern (2022/2023) version, which is from an unrelated league of the same name. The 1980s ones are just very clearly almost always lowercase in sources, so making up reasons for treating them as proper names is very contrary to what the capitalization

2755:

is most definitely able to be considered a massive crowd sourced theatre event with that as its composition title. I do not agree that a composition title is a proper name, unless proper name is anything anyone wants it to be. Instead, I think that MOS aficionados take an over-strident approach in

2516:

Even worse arguments break out when people from one of the philosophy camps assert that nothing that can take a leading "the" is really a proper name; other philosophers think this is bunk, and linguists (aside from a handful who've been influenced by that one philosophy camp) know it's bunk because

1266:

all per consistency. I haven't examined sources for all of those years. However, even if a few of those years did have uppercase more than lowercase, it's not like sportswriters are intentionally choosing to capitalize 2023 USFL Draft, or whatever, one way or the other. The USFL draft is obscure. I

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is widely known as the acceptable form of the event, which has become an American sports holiday similar (but not quite to the extent) of the Super Bowl. The recent attempt to change the casing of clauses of the United States Constitution is an example of disregarding the official names used by the

2164:

BeanieFan11, what do you expect? You provided a list of references that you implied show consistent capitialization in sources, yet three of us who looked at them found that they show the opposite, that is, very inconsistent capitalization in sources. It would certainly be possible to make a list

1979:

I haven't studied all of those, but please note that you listed some publications in both your lowercase and uppercase lists (e.g. Fox Sports) and some are variations from the same organization (the Fox 5 article says it's Fox Sports). And if you look inside of some of the sources you say are using

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Randy, official names are often the same as common names, but when they're not, we don't pay them much attention, like here where the official name is "Annual Player Selection Meeting". Not all sources cap this, but most do, maybe enough for WP to cap it, but it's not what we'd use for a title.

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be composition titles; the reason they are not is not because of a rule, but because sources don’t show them to be used that way. I don’t care for your third paragraph. Depth of creativity and importance are not direct factors. Neither does the presence of spectators, although no spectators is

2591:

The bordering-on-ridiculous use of "near universal" and 100% consistency in casing discussions should end. If a name is a common name as judged by recognizability, sourced use, and official name, as NFL Draft is (the USFL draft, I'm not so sure and haven't commented as to keep or change, is it a

2544:

is actually pretty crappy; it mostly reads as if written based on undergraduate materials from the late 20th century, and mostly by one or two people with backgrounds that were not actually heavy on linguistics but steeped in a philsophy branch, since it makes assertions most linguists would not

1984:

for the phrase, and the phrase appears only in one place in it. Clarion Ledger is a USA Today affiliate. You've got Pro Football Network in the wrong list – its using only lowercase ("players can request USFL draft eligibility once they are two years out of high school" and "This means that the

2300:

essay, but his argument pattern is not consistent with what it points out; he is making an argument that has nothing to do with the linguistics of names and conventions of capitalization, but rather one of the variant philosophy-of-names arguments, about signification and specificity, and graft

2292:

Season 5"; we write "Janet Jackson's fifth album", not "Janet Jackson's Fifth Album"; we write "European theater of World War II" not "European Theater of World War II"; we write "the early decades of the Industrial Revolution", not "the Early Decades of the Industrial Revolution"; we write "a

2187:

Also, B, you apparently opposed the whole lot, including the 8 that are almost always lowercase in sources, based on your observations of the two modern ones that are a distinctly different topic. You might want to re-read the original proposal to understand what you were asked to discuss.

2020:

Indeed. I've started to annotate the so-called "uppercase" list above. I've found of the first 7, 2 use "USFL Draft" in sentences, and 2 use "USFL draft". The other 3 don't use the term either way, at least not in sentence context, but do cap a lot of stuff. I'll do more later.

722:

Outside Knowledge (XXG), and within certain specific fields (such as medicine), the usage of all-capital terms may be a proper way to feature new or important items. However these cases are typically examples of buzzwords, which by capitalization are (improperly) given special

2308:, and neither sporting events nor organizational processes (both of which the USFL draft is, in one sense or another) qualify under any of those definitions. Trying to use "theatre" in the sense of "public spectacle" and shoehorn that unrelated meaning into a rule about 2260:

It's also kind of weird that he thinks these obscure drafts of short-lived leagues were "culturally deep, sports-politico theatre". They were just business meetings, really; most of the players "drafted" didn't much care and didn't play for the teams.

541:, these also should use lowercase. I've put them into one RM discussion so they can be discussed together; some editors have argued that they should be consistent, and others that they are independent questions; both viewpoints are worth discussing. 844:

all others as composition titles for specific events. Variation in usage is explained by the event titles also being descriptive terms, and you need to use context to determine. For a specific event in a title, it is necessarily a composition title.

2477:. Incipits of songs, poems, etc., are typically given in sentence instead of title case, also not a WP-invented convention. And whether to use quotation marks/italics is occasionally governed by some external standard, as in classical music; see 990:

others per SmokeyJoe. The main article change can be justified as as general descriptor by virtue of there being a multitude of types of USFL drafts between the 80s and 2020s; the individual drafts are events in which "Draft" is a proper title.

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is not in the list because it's already lowercase). For the modern (2022, 2023) drafts, it's a different USFL, needing specific attention; these look like majority capped in news, but not nearly consistently capped, so per the criterion in

796:

Given the statistics discussion below, I have my doubts about that 11/14 assertion, and of course, what pops up first from Google isn't necessarily what we should be paying attention to (such as non-independent and unreliable sources).

650:

I take your statement that you would no longer weigh in on capitalization questions is no longer operative. I understand your tendency to overlook P&G in favor of "consistency", but what are you aiming to be consistent with here?

764:. For the modern league at least, but we should be consistent. From my research it appears the substantial majority of sources use capitalization; a google search of "usfl draft" reveals 11/14 of the first 14 sources use uppercase. 1174: 712:

Knowledge (XXG) relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Knowledge

2618:

would still lose by a huge margin. Proper nouns are consistently capped in sources, with only rare exceptions, so we use that consistency as our cue. I haven't seen cases where that needed to be "100%" or close to that.

679:

If I understand correctly, you object to fixing the case of the older USFL drafts because the logo used by the more modern league has DRAFT in all caps. I know that sounds bizarre, so maybe I misunderstood something?

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SmokeyJoe's !vote is problematic in multiple ways, is contrary to the guidelines (both those it is trying to rely on and those it is trying to sidestep), and doesn't even correctly interpret the essay it cites.

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or which might even date to before the articles were split in the late 2000s. Both articles need attention, but the academic volumes required to do it well are very expensive (hundreds of dollars each); maybe

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proper names (just a type that usually takes additional stylization, either italics or quotation marks, unless it's an incipit), but "USFL draft" is nothing like anything on that list of creative or published

2283:

implication that a specific year's USFL draft "must" be a proper name even if the USFL draft as whole is not cannot be supported by any facts or reasoning, and is contradicted by lots of it. E.g., we write

2636:, I'm saying that official names, especially those which are widely known and shape the public's perception of what the common name is, should be given equal weight to ngram-type headcounts. Uppercased 2237:": That's a confused argument twice over. The fact that it's significant to a lot of people is utterly irrelevant to what WP will and will not capitalize. This argument is precisely the one that 2304:

SJ also seens to not quite understand what a "composition title" is, i.e. a title of a published or creative work; we define precisely what those are (for WP capitalization purposes, anyway) at

938:, once or twice a year since it appeared, and to the extent I understand it, it tells me that theatre productions don’t have proper names, they have composition titles, which are not the same. 2615: 2763:, whether it is a description, a name, or a composition title, is the issue of how it is introduced in quality sources. Source use is being analysed above, but I haven’t digested it yet. 1215:

is not consistently being capitalised in either the contemporary context or the earlier context. Where others might argue otherwise, I can see that this has been effectively rebutted. Per

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then shouldn't the larger historical period of 1983–1986 be included for analysis, not just limited to the more limited "modern league" (2022–2023)? Or are you neutral on 1983–1986? —

2202:

My three comments have received 12 comments in opposition as well as 46 modifications / side comments. Your both proving my point. I'm not contributing any further to this discussion.

1018:

Titles are written in sentence case. The initial letter of a title is almost always capitalized by default; otherwise, words are not capitalized unless they would be so in running text

2814:

Also, these events were not at all theatrical. As far as I can tell from the article and sources, they were not broadcast, and did not have spectators. They were business meetings.

1230:

events. A descriptive event that occurs in a particular year is nonetheless intrinsically a descriptive and common name - the USFL draft that occurred in X year. When the prevailing

2956: 2529:", vs. "BLM", "SCoTUS", and "Labour"), by speaker (most people refer to "BLM" but a few to "the BLM", which may come across as old-fashioned, but not for some other cases like "the 1470: 138: 1541: 1596: 144: 1556: 2537:" vs. "according to Royal Canadian Mint reports"), etc., etc., etc. The "the" thing is increasingly (though not universally) seen as a red herring, long with pluralizability. 2098:

I had said before that I thought this was majority uppercase in sources, but now I'm not so sure. In any case, it's nowhere near the "consistently capitalized" criterion of

743:

per nom and consistency with other similar event articles, including those reflecting recent consensus discussion outcomes. Per Bagumba's quotes, Knowledge (XXG) doesn't use

2484:

Variant definitions of "proper name" and even of "proper noun " could exclude certain actual titles of works, if the content or function of them is essentially descriptive (

2451:, only "names" in the broadest sense that includes all designation and apellations; they are not proper names under various (but not all) definitons. Some examples include 1952: 2245:

to make, namely capitalizing to signify something as "important". WP only capitalizes that which is capitalized across almost all independent source material (see lead of

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Very similar topics, does not seem warranted to have separate articles for the two types of drafts the original USFL had. The articles do not meet any of the criteria at

2320:

of clothing, and MOS:TITLES says to capitalize titles of articles (in the sense of written works), that "shirt" and especially the more specific "polo shirt" must be

1912: 1204: 716: 2751:, I am not impressed or persuaded by the analysis of the opion that the several specific events can be considered specific theatre events, with a composition title. 1501: 2961: 2951: 2828:

Dicklyon, I have to agree with you on source use. Knowledge (XXG) should follow its sources. Thank you for meeting me at the point of admitting that these things

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should prevail. Some editors use the "foolish consistency" language to disrespect major properly named topics. This harms, and does not improve, Knowledge (XXG).

1745:: "...players were selected from the USFL draft pool...", "The second day of the USFL draft will cover..."; but not consistent: "the first day of the USFL Draft") 2040: 1900: 1521: 1226:

should not be capitalised in these article titles. There is an argument/opinion that the specific annual events should retain capitalisation because they are

2478: 1566: 2525:"), by whether a long or short form of the name for the same referent is used ("the Bureau of Land Management", "the United States Supreme Court", and "the 1894: 2518: 1770: 419:

While there is greater dissension with respect to the subtopic nominations, there is overall consensus to move as proposed with respect to all subjects.

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I've put in a request for closure. It's been over two weeks, since this RM was opened & it's been about three days, since the last 'survey' input.

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per nom. Can we just stop replying to everyone and browbeating people who have different takes into submission? It is extremely unbecoming and toxic.-

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The sandwich I just made is simply my sandwich, and you could call it SMcCandlish's sandwich, but it's not SMcCandlish's Sandwich with a capital

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editor (who thinks "Draft" should be changed to "draft") to open an RM. The result of such an RM, would end the page name dispute. Including the

1672: 1643: 1680: 1676: 1649: 2249:). And the USFL draft (in general or in a specific year) is in no way comparable to a TV show or a season thereof, which is capitalized per 1755:: "The inaugural USFL draft kicked off...", "...take part in USFL draft for..."; but not consistent: "Day two of the USFL Draft resumed...") 1688: 1536: 1958: 1640:: "In the USFL draft held last season, 280 players were chosen..." and "What is the difference between the NFL draft and the USFL draft?") 1506: 406:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

1782: 1551: 643:

For multiword page titles, one should leave the second and subsequent words in lowercase unless the title phrase is a proper name that

1906: 1337:—There must be overwhelming capping in sources to be an argument for doing that on en.WP. There is nowhere near overwhelming capping. 2905:

Looks like an easy close to move as proposed. It would be even easier if you'd retract your opposition that you declined to defend.

2673: 2579: 2344: 1188: 1090: 963: 1860: 1832: 1591: 747:, preferring to capitalize only what is "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources". —⁠ ⁠ 2733:

You guys should take a moment to say if you have any reason to oppose still, in light of this analysis of Smokey's stated reason.

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currently only covers the 1983–1986 incarnation of the league, for those who might argue for separate treatment for 2022–2023.—

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If we are not capitalizing "USFL draft", why would we have "1985 USFL Draft", when the policy gives preference to lowercase? —

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Various detailia on things that aren't really "titles", and on variant, fractious approaches to what "proper name" means ...

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SmokeyJoe, your entire argument is drastically wrongheaded on multiple levels. Due to length, I'll address that all below.

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to prevent a merger. The drafts were also so indistinct that in 1983, 1984, and 1985, they were both held on the same day.

2938:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1885:(no use in sentence, but "The 8-team league held its draft — officially known as the 2022 USFL Player Selection Meeting") 1738: 2471:, but then we do the White Album without italics (but with capitals), probably because the actual title of the album is 2752: 2147:

Editors in large disputes should work in good faith to find broad principles of agreement between different viewpoints.

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No. I mean that there is a culturally deep. sports-politico theatre called the “1983 USFL Draft”. It’s comparable to “

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Would recommend the 1983 to 1986 USFL Territorial Draft pages, too. They're currently inconsistent among themselves.

1761:(none in sentence context, but "...particularly the league 'draft,' ", "...eligible for the fancy titled draft...") 1748: 1511: 1211:. There is a lot of actual evidence presented and some close examination of this. The evidence is fairly clear that 916:, we should use lowercase, your desire to promote terms for specific events to proper names notwithstanding, right? 1798: 2231:

First off, regarding "a culturally deep, sports-politico theatre called the '1983 USFL Draft'. It's comparable to

2522: 2505:), or perhaps only when not unique among an extremely narrow class of related things (the two self-titled albums 2453: 2165:

of sources that capitalize, but with such widespread use of lowercase, even if it doesn't dominate, the case per

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in items where BeanieFan11 clearly messed up. I think he is clearly making the case for us that these terms are

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titles of works but which are incipits, descriptors, or other designations, are technically not actually titles

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listed on both the upper and lower list, but the entry on the lowecase list seems to actually be uppercase

1621: 1707:: "...players can request USFL draft eligibility...", "...the order for the USFL draft is set in stone.") 239: 2042:(" They will be able to pick and choose their targets during the 2022 USFL Draft and build rosters...") — 1119:

I'm a sports fan and mainly edit sports articles. I think just looking at my day-to-day reading, it can

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with archive links. They're just database listings, with the term in a title, so nothing to be gleaned.—

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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Well, we would if his theory was correct and sources treated this "event" name as a proper name. But

598:" (in all-caps with some overlaid U.S.-flag-themed color and decoration) rather than some variant of " 185:

on 12 February 2023. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see

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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2910: 2855: 2819: 2805: 2783: 2738: 2702: 2676:, which is now, after the RfC opinion poll on the NFL Draft (which was mistakenly used, ignoring 2656:

Language of the guideline should be changed to reflect this (what would be the steps to do this?)

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Your comments are being analyzed. You're free to note errors, if any. Note that per the policy

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Actually nevermind, I don't really care that much. I'm staying out of this capitalization stuff.

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SmokeyJoe is simply flat-out incorrect that these are "composition titles"; not a single word in

1044: 921: 685: 656: 546: 2533:", which is more common than "ACLU" by itself), whether it is being used as a modifier ("at the 2834: 2925: 2895: 2876: 2663: 2526: 2489: 2155: 2047: 2011: 1450: 1129: 1062: 1026: 999: 872: 825: 787: 731: 670: 625: 568: 379: 365: 321: 110: 2680:, to IAR the casing of NFL Draft articles), like the Wild West of Knowledge (XXG) (WP:WWoW). 2297: 1870: 1039:, so lowercase. I'd check the cited sources, but there are none; just a pair of broken ELs. 2571: 2355: 2336: 2203: 2127: 1986: 1966: 1180: 1082: 955: 931: 798: 765: 748: 607: 429: 2593: 2551: 2253:

as the title of a published work, and which is also a trademark (at least in the base form

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No book n-grams these years, but lots of news coverage. These news outlets use lowercase:

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This is clearly a case where sources are capping for significance, which we don't do per

665:

I've already stated my position. I'm willing to allow the RM closer to judge its merits.

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And then the uppercase (list by BeanieFan11, parenthetical observations by Dicklyon):

1173:. We just had an RfC (concluding for lower case) about essentially the same thing, at 2945: 2906: 2851: 2815: 2801: 2779: 2748: 2734: 2698: 2633: 2620: 2409: 2262: 2189: 2174: 2107: 2085: 2057: 2022: 1603: 1474: 1162: 1106: 1079:

would support such a notion. He's just making up weird claims out of nowhere at all.

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Splitting the main page from the year pages (in terms of naming) wouldn't do, IMHO.

1839:: "the sixth round of the 2023 USFL draft," "players to be taken in the USFL draft") 2921: 2891: 2872: 2728: 2659: 2385: 2151: 2043: 2007: 1446: 1125: 1058: 1022: 992: 868: 821: 783: 727: 666: 621: 564: 375: 361: 317: 2792:

I would also disagree with capping the 2020 US presidential election, in light of

2056:

Indeed, looks like I mess that one up. Thanks for the catch. I've annotated it.

1360:, when you say "overwhelming" what do you mean? 70%, 90%, what is your criteria? 2541: 2238: 1166: 744: 420: 81: 63: 17: 2305: 2250: 1867:: "The USFL draft will span over...", "The USFL draft will work similarly...") 1379: 1357: 1338: 1076: 983: 837: 817: 445: 441: 220: 182: 87: 1420:, per SIGNIFCAPS, consistency with other pages, and the strong evidence that 563:

is used. Per that & consistency, I suggest we stick with capitalization.

2637: 2389: 1795:(no use in sentence, but "inaugural College Draft" and "round of the draft") 1624:("The 2023 USFL College Draft is complete!" but no USFL Draft in a sentence) 1445:

and evidence presented. It is not consistently capitalised in sources. —

2510: 2393: 2377: 2246: 2166: 2099: 1442: 1220: 1158: 913: 706: 581:

It looks to me like those infobox images of promotional logos are using "

559:- Looking at the infobox image at the 2022 & 2023 pages-in-question? 538: 2697:

Similarly with the USFL, it appears, though sources are rather scarce.

1695:(but several of these have no uses in sentences, so provide no evidense) 532:– Lowercase dominates in sources for the older (1980s) USFL drafts (the 2333:

SJ's !vote is one of the strangest I've ever seen at any RM, honestly.

2309: 2545:

agree with – things that appear to have been content-forked over from

2372:

Definitely; they're in the same general class of names as trademarks (

2414: 2324:

and thus capitalized. Finally, titles of published or creative works

2929: 2914: 2899: 2880: 2859: 2845: 2823: 2809: 2787: 2772: 2742: 2706: 2689: 2667: 2650: 2628: 2614:

Randy, we don't let sources "vote" on WP styling. But if we did,

2609: 2584: 2367: 2349: 2270: 2211: 2197: 2182: 2159: 2135: 2115: 2093: 2065: 2051: 2030: 2015: 1994: 1974: 1611: 1482: 1454: 1433: 1412: 1389: 1369: 1348: 1306: 1255: 1193: 1175:

WP:Requests for comment/Capitalization of NFL draft article titles

1147: 1133: 1114: 1095: 1066: 1048: 1030: 1006: 968: 947: 925: 894: 876: 854: 829: 806: 791: 773: 756: 735: 689: 674: 660: 629: 615: 572: 550: 434: 383: 369: 325: 291: 271: 2530: 2373: 2102:, or the "would always occur capitalized, even mid-sentence" of 1658:(no USFL draft, but "The USFL held their 2023 Collegiate Draft") 1473:

show only the lowercase draft, so uppercase is in the minority.

2566:

But none of that mess matters in the slightest for our purposes

2800:

don't treat them as composition titles, because they're not.

1811:: "...was selected in the first round of the USFL draft by..." 200: 160: 26: 1873:(no use in sentence, but "The USFL had its college draft...") 2408:, between "some person made it" and "is a proper name". The 2358:, titles of creative works are proper names? Are you sure? 1157:. Not consistently capitalized in sources, so "Draft" fails 1909:(no use in sentence, but "their inaugural draft" and such) 211:

On 13 February 2024, it was proposed that this article be

606:

sources rather than self-published promotional ones? —⁠ ⁠

2759:

The weakest part angle of defence of the title style of

2316:. It's exactly like arguing that because a shirt is an 1921:(no use in sentence, but "inaugural USFL Player Draft") 216: 187: 173: 2173:

should already be clear, so what would be the point?

1242:

events, there is no reasonable argument to capitalise

2501:), or is not unique even within its class of things ( 2126:

Figured all my comments would be BLUDGEONED to hell.

1789:: "...players can request USFL draft eligibility...") 1723:: "...players can request USFL draft eligibility...") 2002:: It should just be outright removed as unreliable ( 109:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 1891:(no use in sentence, but "the league's 2023 draft") 1668:: "Players selected in the USFL draft will be...") 1205:

Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (capitalization)

717:

Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (capitalization)

602:". Anyhow, isn't Knowledge (XXG) trying to look to 908:If you search for "1983 USFL Draft" in books, you 865:Knowledge (XXG):Article titles § Descriptive title 143:This article has not yet received a rating on the 645:would always occur capitalized, even mid-sentence 2441:Certain things that are conventionally treated 1897:(lowercase in headline, uppercase in sentence!) 1845:(lowercase in headline, uppercase in sentence!) 1713:(uppercase: "The 2022 USFL Draft was held...") 2957:Unknown-importance American football articles 2278: 2145: 1016: 936:Knowledge (XXG):Proper names and proper nouns 720: 710: 641: 123:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject American football 8: 2479:List of compositions by Ludwig van Beethoven 1671:Just about all college football teams, e.g. 2519:United States Customs and Border Protection 2446: 2403: 2397: 2000:You've got Sportskeeda in the wrong list... 1931:: "The inaugural USFL draft kicked off...") 1903:(no use in sentence, but lowercase "draft") 191:; for the discussion at that location, see 30: 2920:Contacted the closure board again, folks. 2794:the 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012, and 2016 usage 2592:known nationally celebrated event?), then 2424: 1318:and being consistent with our guidelines. 636:Also, those are not in sentences. Policy 396:The following is a closed discussion of a 58: 620:See (below) response to Dicklyon's post. 2798:2020 United States presidential election 2850:So you'll be striking your opposition? 60: 2962:WikiProject American football articles 2952:Start-Class American football articles 2655: 1999: 930:Not proper names, no. I have studied 779: 126:Template:WikiProject American football 2554:can get at some of them for free now. 1246:in the title of the specific events. 863:: By "composition title" do you mean 7: 415:The result of the move request was: 299: 103:This article is within the scope of 2396:), etc. There is no relationshiop, 49:It is of interest to the following 332:During & after page protection 25: 2753:The 2020 US Presidential Election 2658:: The MOS talk page is thataway.— 1378:. 70% is a pretty good majority. 2934:The discussion above is closed. 2503:The Black Album (disambiguation) 2459:Remember not, Lord, our offences 1851:(no use in sentence, so no info) 360:in the RM, would be preferable. 340:. Now would be a good time, for 303: 298: 204: 164: 90: 80: 62: 31: 1733:American Football International 1285:) 13:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1238:to collectively describe these 389:Requested move 13 February 2024 1739:Mountain West Wire (USA Today) 1461:Some observations from sources 1: 2881:23:19, 19 February 2024 (UTC) 2860:22:59, 18 February 2024 (UTC) 2846:12:25, 18 February 2024 (UTC) 2824:09:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC) 2810:09:46, 18 February 2024 (UTC) 2788:09:43, 18 February 2024 (UTC) 2773:07:30, 18 February 2024 (UTC) 2743:10:49, 15 February 2024 (UTC) 2707:10:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC) 2690:14:32, 17 February 2024 (UTC) 2668:13:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC) 2651:11:33, 17 February 2024 (UTC) 2629:20:05, 16 February 2024 (UTC) 2610:12:32, 16 February 2024 (UTC) 2585:12:06, 16 February 2024 (UTC) 2569: 2368:09:45, 16 February 2024 (UTC) 2350:13:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 2334: 2271:22:04, 16 February 2024 (UTC) 2212:22:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC) 2198:20:02, 15 February 2024 (UTC) 2183:19:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC) 2160:20:12, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 2136:16:55, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 2116:06:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 2094:05:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 2066:05:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 2052:05:30, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 2031:04:31, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 2016:04:06, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1995:01:03, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1975:22:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC) 1612:04:15, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1483:20:50, 13 February 2024 (UTC) 1455:15:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC) 1434:00:43, 17 February 2024 (UTC) 1413:15:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC) 1390:23:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC) 1370:11:37, 17 February 2024 (UTC) 1349:11:44, 15 February 2024 (UTC) 1328:22:37, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1307:17:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC) 1256:12:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1234:and evidence tells us to use 1194:13:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1178: 1148:10:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1134:09:33, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1115:09:06, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1096:13:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1080: 1067:09:16, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1049:08:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1031:07:33, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 1007:05:43, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 969:13:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 953: 948:10:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 926:06:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 895:10:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 877:05:12, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 855:03:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 830:02:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 807:03:19, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 792:02:16, 14 February 2024 (UTC) 774:22:13, 13 February 2024 (UTC) 757:18:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC) 736:16:33, 13 February 2024 (UTC) 705:Some relevant guidelines are 675:18:21, 18 February 2024 (UTC) 661:20:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC) 630:18:21, 18 February 2024 (UTC) 616:18:05, 13 February 2024 (UTC) 573:16:30, 13 February 2024 (UTC) 551:10:33, 13 February 2024 (UTC) 326:10:55, 12 February 2023 (UTC) 117:and see a list of open tasks. 106:WikiProject American football 2310:theatrical stage productions 2081:not consistently capitalized 1592:Chattanooga Times Free Press 1422:independent, non-promotional 384:05:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC) 370:05:43, 9 February 2024 (UTC) 1528:per observation by Bagumba) 1524:(oops, my bad, this one is 534:1984 USFL territorial draft 509:1986 USFL territorial draft 505:1986 USFL Territorial Draft 491:1985 USFL territorial draft 487:1985 USFL Territorial Draft 464:1983 USFL territorial draft 460:1983 USFL Territorial Draft 336:Seeing as the page has bee 2978: 2778:and title guidelines say. 2380:), works of architecture ( 1652:(no mention of USFL draft) 272:00:53, 22 April 2022 (UTC) 145:project's importance scale 129:American football articles 2930:00:53, 7 March 2024 (UTC) 2915:23:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC) 2900:16:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC) 2523:Bureau of Land Management 2486:Oxford English Dictionary 2454:Girl with a Pearl Earring 1843:Pittsburgh Tribune-Review 690:11:55, 6 March 2024 (UTC) 435:15:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC) 292:16:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC) 142: 75: 57: 2936:Please do not modify it. 2796:. Our articles such as 2674:WP:Village pump (policy) 2547:Proper name (philosophy) 2412:is a proper name. So is 1817:(uppercase in sentences) 1801:(uppercase in sentences) 1779:(uppercase in sentences) 1773:(uppercase in sentences) 1767:(uppercase in sentences) 1735:(uppercase in sentences) 1729:(uppercase in sentences) 1646:(uppercase in sentences) 1630:(uppercase in sentences) 403:Please do not modify it. 98:American football portal 2833:traumatic to the actors 2314:fallacy of equivocation 2296:SmokeyJoe mentioned my 1955:(uppercase in sentence) 1949:(uppercase in sentence) 1937:(uppercase in sentence) 1915:(uppercase in sentence) 1879:(uppercase in sentence) 1823:(uppercase in sentence) 1424:sources use lowercase. 1138:I am not a sports fan. 780:we should be consistent 2447: 2404: 2398: 2279: 2149: 1053:I replaced the ELs at 1020: 867:? Thanks in advance. — 725: 715: 649: 240:USFL Territorial Draft 174:USFL Territorial Draft 39:This article is rated 2382:Empire State Building 1895:The Commercial Appeal 1656:Pro Football Newsroom 910:find mostly lowercase 244:USFL Collegiate Draft 171:The contents of the 43:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 2498:John Dies at the End 1961:(no use in sentence) 1943:(no use in sentence) 1701:Pro Football Network 1169:in particular), and 2540:Our own article at 2535:Royal Canadian Mint 1771:Saturday Down South 593:USFL COLLEGE DRAFT 2388:), company names ( 2322:titles of articles 2222:Further discussion 1783:DBusiness Magazine 1759:Sports Talk Philly 1650:Sports Illustrated 1502:Detroit Free Press 778:If you argue that 238:Proposed merge of 45:content assessment 2559: 2558: 1711:Football Database 1522:The Sporting News 1488:2022, 2023 drafts 596: 589: 585: 235: 234: 199: 198: 159: 158: 155: 154: 151: 150: 120:American football 111:American football 70:American football 16:(Redirected from 2969: 2732: 2583: 2450: 2425: 2407: 2401: 2356:User:SMcCandlish 2348: 2288:season 5", not " 2282: 1567:The Toledo Blade 1557:The Detroit News 1387: 1346: 1303: 1295: 1292:~WikiOriginal-9~ 1283: 1275: 1272:~WikiOriginal-9~ 1192: 1094: 1004: 997: 967: 932:User:SMcCandlish 907: 640:says (my bold): 594: 587: 583: 427: 405: 310: 307: 306: 302: 301: 269: 265: 223:. The result of 208: 207: 201: 190: 168: 167: 161: 131: 130: 127: 124: 121: 100: 95: 94: 93: 84: 77: 76: 66: 59: 42: 36: 35: 27: 21: 2977: 2976: 2972: 2971: 2970: 2968: 2967: 2966: 2942: 2941: 2940: 2939: 2888: 2761:1983 USFL Draft 2722: 2560: 2493:(Pigface album) 2469:Led Zeppelin IV 2464:Led Zeppelin IV 2430: 2290:Game of Thrones 2286:Game of Thrones 2224: 2142:WP:BATTLEGROUND 1953:The Chanticleer 1901:Bleacher Report 1849:The Appalachian 1490: 1468: 1463: 1385: 1344: 1299: 1289: 1279: 1269: 1161:(its lead, and 1055:1985 USFL Draft 1000: 993: 901: 527:2023 USFL draft 523:2023 USFL Draft 518:2022 USFL draft 514:2022 USFL Draft 500:1986 USFL draft 496:1986 USFL Draft 482:1985 USFL draft 478:1985 USFL Draft 473:1984 USFL draft 469:1984 USFL Draft 455:1983 USFL draft 451:1983 USFL Draft 421: 401: 391: 358:1986 USFL Draft 354:1985 USFL Draft 350:1984 USFL Draft 346:1983 USFL Draft 334: 308: 304: 267: 254: 247: 205: 186: 165: 128: 125: 122: 119: 118: 96: 91: 89: 40: 23: 22: 18:Talk:USFL 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