Talk:United States/Archive 5

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and other Christian proselytising at the high-school graduation ceremonies of public schools) are honoured more in the breach than in the observance. As for immigration, your information is largely correct, but you omit the fact that green cards for people on an H-1B visa are limited to 7% per country of the total (140,000, the last time I checked). That means that a tiny country like Iceland or Luxembourg (populations in the hundreds of thousands) gets the same number of green cards as a huge one like China or India (populations over one billion). Indeed, tens of thousands of green cards go unassigned every year because of these restrictions (not enough people from the smaller countries apply for green cards), while people from China and India are forced to leave the US when their visas expire. No, it's not on a par with the overtly racist exclusion of Asians that existed in law only a few decades ago, but nor is it consistent with the claim that the US is extremely liberal about immigration. Several other countries are ahead of the US in per-capita immigration, and I read not long ago that Germany, despite its much smaller size, is ahead of the US in absolute numbers.

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language, and every word in the info box besides "None" is completely irrelevant and misplaced. The part about the states is irrelevant because the article refers to the entire country. "De facto" does not equal "Official", so it has no place being there. And the most absurd addition is the part about Spanish being spoken by "a growing minority"; not only does this not have the most miniscule relevance in an article about the official national language of the United States of America, but the same thing could be said about hundreds of languages, like Chinese and Arabic. If you want to discuss the different languages that are spoken within the United States, there is a separate article for that. However, the only thing that should be said next to "Official Language" is "None". It needs to be permanently changed ASAP.

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immigrant visas, so that, currently, anyone qualifying can enter immediately; (2) all countries are treated alike for family-sponsored immigrant visas, with the result that the waiting periods are longer for India, Mexico and the Philippines (because of high demand) but identical for all other countries; and (3) the Diversity Immigrant visa program provides extra visas, by lottery, to facilitate immigration to the U.S. from countries other than the traditional sources of immigration, with a special provision for Nicaragua. I don't know how much of this detail we want to get into, but certainly the article shouldn't convey the impression that the exclusion of Asians, which was established in the 1920s, is still in effect.

865:: "The republic's first and only president was William Brown Ide. Its independence ended on 1846 July 9 when a U.S. Navy battleship, commanded by John D. Sloat, docked in Monterey, routed the detachment of the Mexican Coast Guard garrisoning the port in a minor skirmish (the Battle of Monterey), and alerted Frémont and his men that the Mexican-American War had begun. The "Bear Flaggers" joined the war effort and replaced their flag with the Stars and Stripes. Under the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, Mexico formally surrendered its claim over the territory; the State of California was admitted to the Union two years later." 566:

one (no secret evidence) being more important IMO; trial by jury in civil cases is a separate issue but isn't worth mention in this summary; the summary should include the Due Process Clause, which applies in criminal cases but which also applies in a host of other vital areas, so that, for example, people are entitled to a hearing before their welfare benefits are cut off, because "welfare provides the means to obtain essential food, clothing, housing, and medical care."

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identical with the exception of federal lands within California, areas. We can never completely settle the question of 'what the US is and what it's attributes are', without addressing the issue of these "duplicate states" and "duplicate unions". So it will never happen... see how tense just reading THIS makes you? Imagine being a Citizen of a State that "ended" 100 years before you were born. I'm not the only one by any stretch of imagination either.

681:. Of them, the U.S. easily takes the largest number. Yet efforts to point this simple fact out are being endlessly reverted. I even toned down the language considerably to make it more "cold", and still the reversions continue. Plus the garbage about McDonald's keeps returning (as I have clearly said before, it is foreign encroachment, not detached opposition to "capitalism" (in France!), that could only reasonably be said to drive opposition). 31: 592:

countries. Similarly, the claim that the US is extremely liberal about immigration is false. Numerous countries, among them Germany and Canada, are far ahead of the US in immigration per capita. The US is also selective about the immigrants it takes: any number from tiny Ireland, for example, but no more than 20,000 per year from China or India. Again, this comment was inserted for POV reasons and must be removed.

500:...The Declaration of Independence recognizes many rights as being "unalienable". These rights, known as Vested Rights, with which each Citizen, according to the Declaration, is "Endowed by Our Creator". These rights, (among which) "are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" are not exhaustively listed in either the Declaration or Constitution, furthermore, it is implied that there exist 621:

procedures and freedom of speech and religion. (An example is the recent Muslim head scarf case in France. I think Chirac himself was leading the charge for prohibiting the hijab in public buildings. In the U.S., a school district that tried the same thing had to back down and fork over some cash besides, for violating the student's First Amendment rights. See

826:; not merely de facto. Spanish is spoken primarily by a full 10%, and seconarily by many many more. Spanish is becoming a de facto official language, not just in some neighborhoods, but in some states. All I will agree with you is that Spanish might be better removed from the chart; but the fact remains, some states have official languages. I'll try a mix... 118:"The largest economic trade partners of the United States are: its northern neighbor, Canada; the very worthy whatever-country-is-second and China, which enjoys 'most-favored nation' status with the U.S. Other major partners are Mexico, the European Union and the industrialized nations in Asia, such as Japan, India and South Korea." 196:. Federal law takes precedence over State law, with repect to international relations and Interstate commerce. In other matters, States have jurisdiction over matters unless that jurisdiction has been ceded to the United States, a federal action that invades a State's protected interests can be challenged in court". 767:

Well, news items about fast food eateries are often best found places other than said eateries. McDonald's certainly is a symbol of America, but to say those that resent their encroachment are against an abstraction such as an economic system (capitalism), practiced of course in their own countries,

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I rather doubt that. There could hardly be one in Havana, for example, owing to the US's embargo against Cuba. And I remember when, about ten years ago, McDonald's announced that it had achieved a presence in one hundred countries. There are about two hundred countries in the world, and some of them

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head coverings would have been permissible, which I'm not sure is correct.) As for immigration, what's the basis for your statement that the U.S. will admit "any number from tiny Ireland"? My understanding (which may be out of date) is that: (1) all countries are treated alike for employment-based

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article, which should be just a summary, would be to improve the reference to the Bill of Rights. Points that occur to me are: Trial by jury is important but is only one of a bundle of procedural protections in criminal cases, with the right to counsel and the right to confront the evidence against

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The Declaration of Independence has no legal force and shouldn't be mentioned in this context. (One of the more detailed articles could note the passages in the Declaration that reflected the Revolutionary leaders' opposition to any governmental intrusion upon basic individual rights.) With regard

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Well, how about using some references and focusing on one point at a time rather than a whole package. For example, that McDonald's thing, I don't think the article's language quite reflects whats going on. I ate once at a McDonald's in 1958 and didn't like it so I'm not really up to speed, but its

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3. I agree that "extensive" (about rights) is extremely problematical, but there are some real differences to be noted. Even vis-a-vis the most obvious standards of comparison -- other OECD countries -- there are respects in which governmental power is more restricted in the U.S., such as criminal

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2. Economic regulation is even harder to present succinctly. U.S. regulation varies among industries and, to some extent, among states. An overall "average", even if somehow made meaningful, would show regulation that was more extensive than in some countries but less extensive than in others. I

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3. The word "extensive" has to go. It was inserted as a POV device to neutralise factual comments about criticism of the US's record on human rights. There's no evidence that the US in general (to say nothing of its constitution in particular) provides more extensive rights than any number of other

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In the economy section a paragraph reads: "The largest trading partner of the United States is its northern neighbor, Canada. Other major partners are Mexico, the European Union and the industrialized nations in Asia, such as Japan, India and South Korea. Trade with China is also significant." This

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I don't want to get into a lengthy argument about the limits on governmental power in various countries, but I think you're going rather far in saying that the US respects the freedom of religion more than other countries do. Such laws and court rulings as do exist (such as the one banning prayers

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The previous poster was absolutely correct. Now the info box says "None, several states specify. English de facto nationwide, Spanish spoken by growing minority." The infobox is ONLY ASKING FOR THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE (if there is one, which there is NOT). The USA never has had an official national

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California Republic still has a constituion, duly ratified, never superseded by the 'later constitution'. I myself am a Sovereign Citizen of California Republic. California Republic and the State of California each exist in a jurisdictional nexus located in geographically similar, possibly

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3. Does the Constitution "provide extensive rights for their citizens" or "state that citizens are granted the rights of. . ."? A careful reading shows that the Constitution doesn't really give any rights to anyone; it declares that they exist, and forbids the government from abridging them.

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1. The U.S. has a mixed economy compared with, for example, the much more strictly capitalist economy that the U.S. had in the nineteenth century. On the other hand, the mix in the U.S. tends more toward the capitalistic and free-market than does the mix in many other industrialized

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the box should just say none. You are right in that, in my opinion. The official language of California Republic is Spanish., so the thing about spanish is not trivial, however the datum: "The official language of California Republic is Spanish." belongs in the

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Isn't it true that most countries have quite conservative, explicitly ethnic or nationalist, immigration policies, so that we can at least say that America, along with the EU, Canada, and some similar countries, has a comparatively liberal immigration regime? -

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this is either meaningless, or false. Cite a source or remove it, please. According to whom and in what sense does a State have limits on it's autonomy? In what way does federal law take precedence over State Law. What is meant by State Law? Federal Law?

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I don't like the entire passage, for one thing it includes territories in the country (The sun never set on the British Empire; it did, however, set on Great Britain, every day), and for another, it doesn't mesh with the -5 to -11 timezones in the infobox.

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2:I would compromise by saying "the majority of industries", I don't want to attract the govt's attention to the few unregulated industries there are... and it depends on what you mean by industry, is that a 'term of art' or is that a regular English

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3:the constitution recognises that there are inherent rights, Vested Rights, specifically states that there are more than are listed in the constitution and specifically states that they 'shall not be abridged', I would prefer this

277:'s suggested language conveys a sense of a very limited federal government; the description might have been roughly accurate before the Civil War but gives a misleading picture of the current situation. Another possible version: 241:

I think it's more correctly characterized as "wrong" than "debatable". States can't make treaties, alliances, coin money, declare war, or adopt an other-than-republican form of government, which sovereign entities can. -

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but which are equally protected. In article 1 through 10 of the US Constitution (also known as the Bill of Rights), some of the more important of these rights are specifically recognised as guaranteed to the Citizen...

145:"The United States of America is a federation of fifty interdependent States, each with exclusive jurisdiction over all issues, the jurisdiction of which has not been ceded by the State to the Federal government." 272:

05:55, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)) The states have some of the aspects of "the sovereign" under English common law, and they also have some rights that even the federal government can't abridge. On the other hand,

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I'm going to remove "where the day begins on Guam and ends at the International Dateline on Baker and Island south in the Paciffic" because it doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps if this was rephrased??

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rather than a foreign culture on their turf is, well, a bit unsubstantiated. (Of course they're everywhere anyway; I've been to several in France, the epicenter of the hate, and they drew crowds.) Do

308:'s request for a source for the proposition that federal law takes precedence, it's a little late to be arguing the issue of federal supremacy. The basic doctrine was expounded by the Supreme Court in 265:

That's true, in the sense in which "sovereign" is used in international law. The reference to U.S. states as sovereign isn't completely wrong, though -- at least one judge has used the phrase (

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A permanent lock goes against the ideals of Knowledge. Furthermore, to permanently lock it would be an official endorsement by the management of a particular version of the article. --

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3) It's not irrelevant; in some states, there are official languages. Due to the federal system, this is just as relevant as if there were a federal official language. And I do mean

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implies that trade with China is less than the others. In fact, China is now the US's 3rd largest trading partner (at least when trade with the EU is broken down by country):

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I'm sure the Soviet Union still has a constitution, but that doesn't mean the Soviet Union still exists. At what point do you consider a particular government entity dead? --

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in 1819. The only question at this point is drawing the exact boundaries, e.g., can federal minimum-wage legislation be applied to employees of state governments. Here's

315: 552:, and protection from "cruel and unusual punishment". In addition, courts have recognized some additional rights found within the "penumbra" of the enumerated rights. 318:

of an analysis of one recent court decision holding that the federal Airline Deregulation Act could prohibit states from applying their tort law to airlines, and a

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Sweden has a mixed economy as do Russia, India, and the People's Republic of China. The US with only a few socialized industries such as mail delivery does not.

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This article seems to be locked half of the time. Would it not make sence to permanently lock it? It's a conterversial article no mater how well written it is.

288:. Each state exercises autonomy in some matters but, in the event of a dispute, actions of the federal government can generally override those of a state." 419:

2. Is there government regulation in "many industries" or "virtually every industry"? What industries, for example, are not regulated? Not to sound like

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I don't have the constitution or declaration in front of me, but I think that's substantially correct... could likely be worded better, if someone likes

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still not quite.. better, but not quite. It's specifically stated that the states retain control over everything not ceded to the U.S govt...

161:. Federal law takes precedence over state law, but states theoretically have jurisdiction over all issues not specifically addressed in the 293:

The intricacies of untangling the respects in which the states are sovereign and those in which they aren't is best left to the article on

135:"The United States of America consists of fifty states with limited autonomy in which federal law takes precedence over state law. " 558: 557:

My inclination, however, would be to omit the second sentence, relegating the discussion of that concept to the separate article on

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As to 5 people being wrong... Even on articles like this we have a very thin slice of opinion and knowledge represented.

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1. I don't see the argument for "mixed economy". If the US has a mixed economy, so does every other country in the world.

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1. So, is the U.S. more fairly called a "capitalist" economy or a "mixed" economy? I think we should say something like:

1007: 1001: 983:, McDreck is in 119 countries around the world; as for "every capital city" the usual claim is "except Montpelier" :) -- 537: 222:

It is, I think, inappropriate to declare the states "sovereign," for such a position is at the very least debatable. --

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don't know if we can hit the highlights so as to convey important information with burying the reader in details.

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4) De Facto DOES belong there; observe other articles. What matters is both what is official, and what is spoken.

968:"Social issues" states that there is a McDonald's outlet in every capital city in the world except Pyongyang. 793:

Yes, there was some sarcasm being exchanged, I believe. And the thin slice of knowledge has been well noted.

337:." That's probably enough coverage of the subject for this article. I've added a little more detail to the 588:

2. Why is this even mentioned? There's no country in the world in which industries are totally unregulated.

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to the Constitution, one way to reword the current text to take account of the point you make would be:

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I think it's a punny title on Guam's slogan, myself. Guam is known as "Where America's Day Begins."

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Addendum: Looking more carefully, I see that the introduction already says, "The country has fifty

112: 622: 223: 47: 17: 541: 268:). (in an offhand manner and not in the process of actually assessing sovernty of a state! -- 956:

I've started a section on human rights in the United States. Please feel free to add to it.

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few countries have policies of taking non-negligible numbers of immigrants at all. See

898: 972:(Libya, Liberia, Iran) seem very unlikely to have a McDonald's. (More power to them.) 562: 549: 411: 365: 298: 269: 243: 166: 887: 434: 431: 297:. I would just omit the word "sovereign" from the discussion of the states in the 743:

That's a good point. I've never heard of five people being wrong about anything.

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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This is meaningless if not backed with data. We cannot just assert it.

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perhaps have references to show before you go back to reverting me?

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Suggest the wording is changed to remedy this ambiguity. How about:

333:, which have a level of local autonomy according to the system of 406:

The economy of the United States is often described as primarily

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http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/top/dst/2004/08/balance.html

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1:I don't know. seems capitalist to me, not qualified to say...

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association with the United States, per se, is tenuous.

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that guarantees certain individual rights, including

624:, although that source says that a rule prohibiting 703:Five people are now reverting your POV, VV. Please 380:Would it not make sence to permanently lock it? 185:how about: "The United States of America is a 725:Yeah, VV, five people are against you, so you 106:China is the US's 3rd largest trading partner. 832:5) Permanently? You want us to lock the page? 8: 105: 835:6) You're welcome to change it yourself. -- 536:The United States Constitution includes a 397:Some questions about the reversion debate 295:Political divisions of the United States 423:or anything, but I can't think of any. 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 7: 502:other rights which are not mentioned 280:"The United States of America is a 153:"The United States of America is a 992:I'm game for removing the sentence 24: 559:Human rights in the United States 410:, while others refer to it as a 29: 855:of California Republic is POV.: 382:I say it should be permanently 673:Yes, this is obviously true. 1: 816:1) Always sign your comments. 1008:Talk:United States/Archive 6 1002:Talk:United States/Archive 4 905:has never been dissolved. -- 890:was officially dissolved on 440:] 01:55, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC) 897:by the last meeting of the 561:. A better choice for the 1023: 883:21:32, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC) 789:11:31, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC) 763:11:31, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC) 721:16:04, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC) 700:13:49, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC) 376:21:32, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC) 163:United States Constitution 1000:Previous archive page is 976:02:35, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC) 876:16:56, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC) 839:04:16, Sep 26, 2004 (UTC) 390:21:34, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC) 368:20:27, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC) 360:Constant Article Problems 326:03:00, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) 169:18:16, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC) 149:17:31, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC) 127:00:32, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC) 996:00:00, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC) 987:01:21, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC) 960:02:44, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC) 947:19:30, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC) 938:17:23, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC) 929:13:27, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC) 909:01:18, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC) 851:but apparently the very 802:12:07, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC) 781:12:07, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC) 752:03:19, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC) 736:03:16, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC) 690:00:06, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC) 666:13:40, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) 649:11:40, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) 633:05:45, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC) 615:11:40, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) 596:04:35, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC) 574:20:14, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC) 517:01:30, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC) 345:18:24, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) 246:01:35, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) 226:20:29, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC) 211:01:00, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC) 570:, 397 U.S. 254 (1970). 320:more general discussion 322:of federal supremacy. 1006:Next archive page is 451::points 1,2,3, above: 311:McCulloch v. 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