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marking
Session 1. The Phil pursued the same policy. Later the Hist chose to revert to the original founding date and dated sessions from that date. Some years later the Phil followed suit. In truth, the exact numbering and provenance of the two societies is not entirely clear. The session numbers are clearly fictitious, but the founding dates far less clearly so. The Provost of Trinity College, appearing at the Inuagural meeting of that society a year ago recognised the founding date as 1683, for example. It is unfortunate that old Hist hacks have made a habit of editing this page so frequently. The Phil appear, from the edit history of the Historical Society, to not have retaliated in kind. Perhaps that is just a mark of maturity, or maybe some people are hardcore enough to impute their own view on facts that are open to interpretation. In any event, the founding date of 1683 is as accurate as 1842 or 1845. Perhaps adding the diagram from the Dublin Philosophical Society Page would be of aid in demonstrating the connection.
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1712:. Several sources have been given. The Provost of the College acknowledges the date. The US government acknoweldged the age, and the reference to sessional numbers by several third-party sources recognize the age. No one is using this as a promotion. The 1683 age has stood on the page for years. KountKurly has actually given valuable clarification as to the connection between the DPS and the UPS. (
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would prefer if you didn't call me a Sock, as I'm not. Admin. can trace IP's if they wish, actually in fact I encourage it. I have nothing to hide (although funnily enough the laptop I'm currently using has a blocked IP, as it was used repeated to refute the position I'm currently arguing with regard to this society), and really want this petty name calling cleared up.
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date attests this as it was not incorporated in
Trinity until years after. In any event that criticism is unmerited in light of the sources here pointed out by KountKurly, a number of which are not from TCD itself. Furthermore, the fact that they are labelling the sessions in these sources shows the age. It is a simple matter of of subtracting 320 from 2005.
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Stoker estate, not as a result of anti-Semitic abuse on the part of society members. Such an accusation, if it is to be made, requires stronger evidence than an unsubstantiated claim without a signature, any supporting evidence or the name of the contributor. - Luke Ryder, Registrar 321st
Session, University Philosophical Society.
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accompanied by confirmation from the statutory bodies that oversee the affairs of the society. There is little more that can be done, save asking people who report on the society's goings-on in newspapers to explicitly comment on the founding date, instead of just stating how many years the society has existed (
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The reference cited by 46.7.236.155 is accurate insofar as the society was dated for many years from its original foundation date. The same policy was followed by the
Historical Society, which was founded in 1770, but expelled from College. When it was restored it used the date of restoration date as
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While the dispute about the date will never be solved the Dublin
Philosophical Society Did not allow undergrads to join, and they were not allowed to join until 1843 which is far later then other student societies have started letting undergrads in, and it can not therefore beclaimed that the phil is
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is the evolutionary predecessor (clearly linked), having incredibly similar characteristics, traditions and principles. It is a truer representation to show the 1683 date as the foundation date, and 1842 being the date of revival or "reformation". Accordingly I restored the 17th century history, and
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The second paragraph is now about the Dublin
Philosophical Society (1863~1708). There is a reasonable and factual comment that it was quite different from the society that currently exists, but this was altered. If anyone believes that it is inaccurate to state that "that society was very different,
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The provost of the college is not a third party source. He is the senior patron of the society, and therefore is representing the society's position rather than being objective. The US goverment did not acknowledge the age, Nancy Pelosi did in a personal press release. Having been given an award by
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Sources from TCD itself should be admissible insofar as the Phil has an autonomous existence and clearly delineated identity separate from its statutes, as demonstrated by its existence prior to its incorporation as a
College body. The choice of those contributors here to cite 1842 as the founding
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There is also no evidence that I can find of the supposed feud and death of the Junior Dean. I've read RB McDowell's
Academic History and there is a reference to the death of a Fellow in 1735 from a feud. This was four years after the foundation of what became the RDS and 27 years after the Dublin
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There has recently been a string of vandalism and section blanking, please by all means if you witness this, revert the changes. Do NOT start Edit Wars, which I have witnessed over the last hour, If you want to revert vandalism, do it by all means, but remember to warn the vandal, If vandalism is
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2: Controversial one here: The society's claim to be dated from 1684 should be at the heading of the page. Otherwise the claim that it is the oldest society of its kind loses context. It is a salient issue, so it should be there, as it has been in all the edits previously - even the most biased
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Firstly, the
Provost is the most senior staff member within Trinity College. To claim he is unreliable or that this is a case of favouritsim is more that a bit silly. The link is clear is MORE than clear, the references are MORE than clear. Secondly, if you ask people not to call you a troll, I
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Removed paragraph asserting that the removal of Bram Stoker memorabilia was due to an anti-Semitic campaign on the part of
Council members. To the best of my understanding, said memorabilia was removed as a result of a failure on the part of the society to adhere to the agreement signed with the
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This is getting ridiculous. The sources recognise the sessional date and the age claim. Taken together they represent a very clear demonstration of the age. Sorry they did not spell it out so clearly as to fit the criteria of every passing troll. These sources are recognitions of age. They are
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I don't understand the confusion with this article; but by no means want to get trapped in an edit war. KountKurly has demonstrated this organisation was reformed in 19th century, reinstating a reformed organisation through a hereditary organisation of the Dublin Philosophical Society. I don't
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1: Delete the Oscar Wilde references. As any Trinity historians worth their salt know, Wilde didn't care one iota about the traditional societies. The most that could be said about a Wilde-Phil link is his relationship with Mahaffy, which should be on the Mahaffy or Wilde page, if it deserves
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I just made a small change, correcting the name of the 1731 society. I have noticed that some more significant changes have been made in the last few days, but I think that the current version is fair and accurate, and I don't think that any further changes should be made without some form of
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I changed "most" to "some" sources in the dating section, because the only reputable historical source that acknowledges the claim is the University Calendar, which at the moment publishes both dates. If there are others, please cite them. I also deleted a repeated phrase in that section.
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not being an undergraduate society or connected in any substantial way with Trinity College" he or she should make their case, but with evidence. It's all very well to pretend within College that a society is older than it is, but Knowledge (XXG) is meant to be factual and unbiased.
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1385:(Trinity Jargon Buster, just look for "The Philosophical Society. One of Trinity’s two ancient debating societies, along with the Hist, and reputedly the oldest student society in the world. Has its home in the GMB (ground floor), and has nothing to do with philosophy."
1790:, but that doesn't make it so. I also find it suspect that another SPA that has lain dormant for three months suddenly became active again to join the fray, and that yet another SPA was created to get involved. I smell sockpuppetry, or meatpuppetry at the very least.
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Currently leaning towards the article being edit protected, though some new editors do a really good job improving the article, then we have the occasional I.P troll. I think this page should be indefinetly semi-protected instead of a permanent protection.
1740:) has been removing reverences. Also any I.P can be traced an geolocated on Knowledge (XXG), all it takes is to be a confirmed user. I will check to see if this user has been sock puppeting, for more information regarding sockpuppets see
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that says that the University Philosophical Society was founded in 1683, please feel free to add it. The only reliable source I have been able to find gives a foundation date of 1842, and so that is what I am working with in the article.
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The death was of a Junior Fellow, Edward Ford. He was killed in 1734. Court records are available online. The students involved were ineligible to be members of the Philosophical Society, as they were undergraduates.
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Deleting the members of the Dublin Philosophical Society is just childish, since nobody disputes its being included. I'm restoring the list of members, since this is the article where people will come to see them.
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What's silly about saying that the senior patron of the society would be biased towards representing the society's version of events when making a speech in front of the society? The reference is more than clear:
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I take it then that the request to reinstate the 1683 foundation date, 1842 restoration date and 17th Century section has been refused? Are the references not good enough? (sorry, just looking for clarification)
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This is clearly POV and would be better written as a description of events, probably in the relevant paragraph in the Controversies section. A description of events involving Niall Lenihan would be ideal, as per
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Recent years saw the presidency of Niall Lenihan, son of then-Tánaiste Brian Lenihan, remembered as a defender of the Phil's rights of association and free speech during the visit of discredited historian David
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Something needs to be said about the different incarnations of the society, and why it has two foundation dates in the College Calendar. I might add a NPOV tag if no one with authorative information does that.
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the society, she presumably bought their version of events rather than researching the age of the society herself. Just because the UPS claim to be a revival of the DPS doesn't make it so. Many organisations
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Certainly the inflated age should not be reentered until some evidence can be given of a connection between the Dublin Philosophical Society and the DSIHMOUA/DS/RDS, and also between these societies and the
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might be suitable, though it gives the year as 1989. Also, the article refers to "then–Holocaust denier David Irving" - as far as I know Irving still is a denier. Certainly he was as recently as the case
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Sorry, I meant that half ironically, I meant to put a comment on its note-wothiness, I think it went in the edit summary instead. I believe it was sourced in the article two years ago when it appeared.
985:; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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It seems the date listed in the previous version stands truer to the history of the evolution of the society and with the later date being a date of reformation rather than renewal or re-founding.
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list and should it be removed? It seems like any notable speaker becomes a patron, surely if we are to list them all then we could have a very extensive list, even more so if we did this for
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Furthermore, I think it would be good to find a way to integrate the archival evidence that the Phil backdating its founding to the 1680s is a relatively recent phenomenon. The archives of
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in March 2013, referencing how old the society is "The Phil, the world’s oldest debating society, bestowed the award on Leader Pelosi at the inaugural meeting of their 327th session"
1178:, and as such the foundation date of 1683 reflects that. Your unwillingness to speak on this matter hinders any chance of a resolution here. Unfortunately I have therefore contacted
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the
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Show in October of 2007, to explain a seemingly anti-semetic joke in the society's annual publication, and an accusation was made against one of the council members
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Obviously the link cannot be members, but the similarites are such that it would be foolish not to acknowledge that to some degree both societys share a link.
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http://pelosi.house.gov/news/press-releases/2012/03/pelosi-accepts-award-from-university-philosophical-society-of-trinity-college-dublin-on-official-vis.shtml
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That was James apparently. 1) Signed comments are helpful on a confusing page like this. 2) If there's a clearly silly edit, revert it. I just did.
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Sources from TCD itself are not third party sources. Do any of those references say that the University Philosophical Society was founded in 1683?
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Recently the Phil has also been rocked by constant accusations of anti-Semitism on the part of its Members. The society’s President was on the
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Had it's first meeting in Provost's Lodgings at Trinity College, and continued to meet there at various intervals throughout the years.
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Justification or explanation should be given for the fact that the article has been rewritten considerably and the warnings removed.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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been removing references, I have been restoring the referenced foundation date that KountKurly has been insistent on removing.
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Also in reply to 46.7.236.155, the link to the speech by the Provost clearly references the society's 1683 foundation date.
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states that the society was formed in 1842. Unless there's a reference to dispute that, that's the date we should use.
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A paper reading society, almost exactly the same in nature (obviously slightly different due to change in the times).
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An issue has arisen concerning the foundation date and reformation date of this society. Please carefully read both
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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The "section blanking" was the removal of original research which had been inserted in place of cited material.
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1365:(22,279 bytes) (+860)‎, as it is the truer representation of the society. Evidence to this can be found on the
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Disabled request for now. Can editors clarify whether the proposal by KountKurly has their support? — Martin
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Written and documented evidence of the Provost assuming a role of assitance and protection (i.e Patron).
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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That's not what the reference says. The previous date is the founding date of a different society.
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to be dated from way back. I think evidence for or against should be put in the History section.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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The reference states that the organisation was founded in 1842. If you have a reference to a
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University Philosophical Society: Founded, November 1842, connected to college February 1845
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understand why the empty reasoning of an anonymous user is being forced on this article.
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are very reliable, there has also been recent disputes by an I.P on the topic, that I.P (
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Do any of the sources say that the University Philosophical Society was founded in 1683?
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1685:. No reliable source has been given that shows a founding date of 1683. KountKurly is a
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http://www.rafabenitez.com/web/index.php?act=mostrarContenidos&idioma=in&co=1438
1391:(Provost of Trinity College's speech, 18th May 2013. search for "Philosophical Society")
1955:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by
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Highest or "Senior" Patron was the Provost (and still is), exactly the same as the DPS.
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Modified references to visits by Irving and Haider: there were factual errors in both.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Vast number of Trinity students, graduates, fellows and several Provosts were members.
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and it's references, aswell as on this page, where it has been discussed at length.
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then you may need to upload it to Knowledge (XXG) (Commons does not allow fair use)
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Show, to explain a seemingly anti-semitic joke in the society's annual publication.
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Hopefully after considering these you will see which is the truer representation.
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No one is arguing your reference, however it is clear that there is a link to
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http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/item/2005/0103/harr/harrop_dublin.html
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http://www.trinitysocieties.ie/society/80/philosophical-society-tcd-phil
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http://www.tcd.ie/provost/addresses/2012-05-18-Admissionsconference.php
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http://www.tcd.ie/provost/addresses/2012-05-18-Admissionsconference.php
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It strikes me that this might be worth re-discussing in light of the
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added "reformation" date to the top table for total clarification. (
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Request that current page be reverted back to 21:13, 14 May 2013‎
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I have reverted to the earlier version requested. — Martin
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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page, and all comments above. Thank you for contributing.
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The following appears in the section about 1900s history:
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is quite clear. This is fully referenced to on that page:
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to Public figures on the basis of excellence or fame ...
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110519173408/http://http/
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persistent, request Administrator Intervention. Thanks
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list of Patrons of the University Philosophical Society
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justification being given in the discussion section.
1182:(Administrator), in an attempt to solve this issue.
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This award dates back to ?? and has been awarded to
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1965:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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996:If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no
573:Philosophical Society last met, which was in 1708.
818:Is the above, unnoteworty, irrelevent, or untrue?
144:This article has not yet received a rating on the
648:Also has a very strong link with Trinity College.
502:Oh, and obviously signing my comments would be a
197:, a project which is currently considered to be
1788:claim to be restorations of the knights templar
1410:http://www.nme.com/news/the-white-stripes/47903
482:the oldest undergraduate society in the world.
1951:This message was posted before February 2018.
1246:Do you have a reliable source for any of this?
1418:(Irish News Broadcaster, search for "oldest")
974:Media without a source as of 20 December 2011
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1416:http://www.rte.ie/ten/2006/1122/pacinoa.html
1383:http://www.tcd.ie/orientation/jargon-buster/
1090:Date listed as 1683 shows the foundation of
397:about philosophy content on Knowledge (XXG).
2028:The paragraph on Irving needs references -
2124:C-Class Ireland articles of Mid-importance
1921:I have just modified one external link on
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899:""Gerry Ryan Show" 10 Oct 2007 at 2:13:06"
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1424:(see bottom of page, or search "oldest")
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1575:I am not a troll. Do not call me one.
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2024:Controversies section - David Irving
1262:Foundation Date and Reformation Date
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127:Template:WikiProject Organizations
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1925:. Please take a moment to review
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30:on 26 July 2023. The result of
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2129:All WikiProject Ireland pages
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290:and see a list of open tasks.
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2019:09:52, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
1909:22:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
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1918:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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983:Don't panic
933:WP:MORALIZE
675:Recent edit
2093:Categories
2014:Report bug
1889:WP:Laundry
1815:KountKurly
1714:Adamseline
1636:KountKurly
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1472:Adamseline
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1363:Adamseline
1345:|answered=
1276:KountKurly
1227:Adamseline
1184:KountKurly
1097:KountKurly
908:2008-07-25
886:References
811:Gerry Ryan
698:Gerry Ryan
592:Adamseline
504:Good Thing
400:Philosophy
389:philosophy
345:Philosophy
1997:this tool
1990:this tool
849:WP:VERIFY
2003:Cheers.—
1895:and the
1480:contribs
1468:unsigned
1431:Thanks,
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684:Article6
611:May 2013
600:contribs
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508:Article6
474:Toropets
206:Debating
200:inactive
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28:deletion
2039:Autarch
1927:my edit
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1761:I have
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1730:Support
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937:Autarch
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427:on the
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431:.
324:.
203:.
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172:(
148:.
70::
38:.
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