632:. Each of the articless explains somewhat redundant history and the fact that the terms are vague (used by different groups to mean somewhat different things). In other words, the terms are vague and to the extent they have substance it's largely non-evident from the name ("ultra"--what does ultra mean? it's a meaningless intensifier) or non-evident to people who don't use that particular term, and the groups intended to be covered by the term are similar in each set anyway (whether or not they really belong together). "Ultra left" is just never going to grow -- it's basically a meaningless phrase used simply as a pejorative; "radical left" just says it's lumping together anarchists, communists & socialists; and while there's a lot of content in "far left", it's largely redundant with
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DĂ©tournement, an art piece about "the spectacle"" but such as statement is flawed; does it mean to suggest that there is an artwork entitled "Situationist DĂ©tournement", if so then it would be incorrect, DĂ©tournement is a technique of "highjacking" pre-existing cultural artifact to propagandise against the culture sphere that produced it. The SI themselves made it pretty clear that there can exist no such thing as a situationist painting or music, but only a situationist use of those means. The spectacle itself is merely an application of Marx's
Commodity Fetishism particular to the SI. I recommend deleting the whole thing as it is detrimental to understanding the historical Ultra Left.
636:. I propose that we just merge them all into a single page, redirect the other two terms to the single page, and have one page that defines each separate term. (I'm choosing "radical left" simply because it actually has a specific meaning and "radical" has a specific meaning, unlike "far" or "ultra".) That way we can be much more consistent within discussing each term and its discussions of other terms, and we can take a clear eye at figuring out whether the content currently on
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833:, a Trotskyist group. This provides evidence that at least Trotskyists use this term, but it is clear to me that Trotskyists are not the only Marxists who use this term since the article later references Leninists using the term (labeling amoung others the Trotskyists). So I don't really know what a good replacement for this term would be, perhaps "some Marxists", but it would nice to use a term that is more informative.
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argue that it is a position on the spectrum that can be used to label certain jucheist parties, and therefore should be titled & described accordingly. Also, why donât we have a page for Ultra-right politics? The term still appears on a list for Right wing political parties but is not linked as there is no existing page for it.
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since 2018, with no explanation on the talk page. I am going to remove them. I don't see anything POV about the article currently, nor do I see any buzzwords. I can't know the original issue was addressed (or even a reasonable issue) since no explanation was given. If someone does think it is POV
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You have to justify your edits with solid appeals to
Knowledge policy. Arguments based on personal opinions mean nothing on Knowledge, but even if they did, you have not sufficiently made your case with your comments so far. You still have yet to prove how the WPK being criticised as far-right means
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to "Marxist-Leninists and
Trotskyists" (it seems someone else changed it to Leninists, but I missed that) and the targets of the term to simply "communists". While it is my personal belief that what you have written is very probably accurate, I've been trying to track down a decent citation for this
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I have done a fairly big edit of the page. Looking over the history of the article, it seems that it has been troubled by two essentially different, if overlapping, usages of the term, which meant that the aricle became confused. I have edited it to reflect these two different usages. What do people
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Actually, Ultra-right is used synonymously with far-right, multiple sources explain this. In fact your own sources on
Knowledge use it distinctively from far-right on multiple pages. And the term ultra-left, is meant to be used as a detachment from far-left in the purpose of pejoratively separating
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I made an argument that certain parties such as the W.P.K of the D.P.R.K, should be labeled âultra-rightâ under position. Other political spectrum pages on centre, right/left wing, far right/left, use titles such as âright/left wing politics, not simply an âismâ that describes a pejorative. I would
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has a couple of references, though not nearly enough, and poor quality ones at that. I have no idea why it might be considered a "POV fork", given that it's not a fork from anything, and discusses a defined current of communism. If the editor wishes to see the page deleted, they should take it to
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with the comment "This page had no references despite a request demanding that such references be provided was issued in 2010. This article was original research and a POV fork and I am merging it into the "Far-left politics" article." I've reverted that, as the comments are nonsense. The article
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The relevancy of my argument comes form many other arguments on far-left and far-right. The positioning on the W.P.K is disputed because some argue that it is far-right due to its ultranationalist and totalitarian nature. From this page, that party is a perfect example of what some critiques could
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Informally I have seen Egoist-Communism referred to as Ultra-Left, and to be honest this just makes sense given the nature of Egoist-Communism. This section makes few claims which seem evidently probable. It should probably be possible to source them. I think this section needs some rewriting and
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alike is that the most open election system, with lots of debates, meetings, street demos, etc., has never prevented and will never prevent the creation of concentration camps. Every democratic country has had and can have its
Dachaus in one form or other. Supporting democracy in order to avoid
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Here it is not clear who is meant by "Marxists", in part because the people for whom the pejorative is most often used, left-communists and
Trotskyists, consider themselves to be Marxists. So it is pretty clear that the intended meaning of Marxist here likely doesn't encompass Marxists of all
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The symbol itself is very hard to read, furthermore the text explaining it is incomprehensible gibberish; in what way does it represent "Situationist-inspired doctrine" and what is the doctrine its supposed to represent? It thats that it is based on "Situationist artwork called
Situationist
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claim so we can avoid the repeated edits that it undergoes. Do you have any sort of citation you might be able provide here? If not I think it is better to move this back to a vaguer version of the sentence that is supported by the citation we do have. Thanks
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I disagree, there's a clear historical milieu surrounding it, which has been noted, although mostly by French authors. This is why I think we should port over the page from French
Knowledge since it's a lot less vague and more thoroughly sourced.
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This article uses the term "Marxist" in a way that I think is confusing. To begin with "Marxist" and "Marxism" mean very different things depending on whom you ask. As an example let us look at the sentence that describes the use of the term:
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It has no sources, and while it certainly does exist I have never seen anyone call it Ultra-Left (admittedly, I've never seen it used for the situationists either, but that's a different can of worms). I feel like we should remove it.
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Forgive me, Iâm new and not 100% sure how all the formatting works, but I tried my best. I have tried to translate faithfully, but it was a bit wacky at times and I have done some light messing around. Hope this helps :-) Cheers,
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ideation, but it is not clear in the text which. Furthermore it also implies that the people who are called ultra-left are not
Marxists even those who might consider themselves such. This is a bit of a POV issue in my opinion.
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Bob, you're not quite right actually. Barrot/Dauvé never says that fascism and liberal democracy are equally bad, only that you can't choose which one of the forms capitalism will take in the course of history. See this quote:
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It is an error to think that Ultra-leftism is a term on some sort of specific spectrum. It is a term with usage. The reason there isn't an "Ultra-right" page is because the term Ultra-right is not used distinctly from
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I see the lead of this article has been edited recently. Here is my translation of the lead of the French
Knowledge version of this article (which I also believe to be lacking, but may be useful regardless).
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French wikipedia has a much better version of this page, by bringing it over it will make the page a lot more clear and distinct since there is a historical usage which the French page discusses extensively.
1084:. The council communist current looks to the experience of direct democracy in workersâ councils that appeared in Germany in 1918. For council communists, these workersâ assemblies are the first stage of a
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I would like to correct this mistake but I don't really know what term to substitute in place of "Marxists". The "citation" for this claim is the "Danger of Ultra-Leftism", a primary source released by
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This is the view of anti-revisionist Bolsheviks and true Marxist-Leninist proletarian parties. Including it makes it appear that is specific to left communism. This is why Wiki fails with me
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502:"or Jean Barrot's critique of anti-fascism which argues that all bourgeois regimes should be opposed, and that revolutionaries should not defend liberal democracy against fascism."
1260:. To assume symmetry is incorrect. What you might argue about a term is rather irrelevant. We should rely on what sources claim about the term rather than how you think about it.
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The page should have a list of current and former parties and political organizations that are characterized by ultra-leftism. Such as Category:Far-left political parties . -
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I second that it is completely looney and absurd that there are separate pages devoted to terms like "ultra-left", "far-left" and "hard-left". Sheer tautology. Amateur.
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that dropping a ballot paper in the box (an act which is indeed a dispossession of oneself) would be the same as being sent to Dachau. The point made by Bordiga
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may consider to be without regard of the current political consciousness or of the long-term consequences that would result from following a proposed course.
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Such a list would not be neutral, nor would it have clear parameters, given that "ultra-left" is (and has been) commonly used as a political pejorative.
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struggles. It does not see itself in political parties or in forms of individual action. The ultra-left does not see itself in the armed struggle of
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480:. It never has and never will. Here lies the essential. To prove this essential, there is no need to relativise, minimise or deny the all too
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Then bring the sources. Your arguments have to be based on Knowledge's policies, and the most obvious one you can use to make your case is
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1311:. Not sure why you (whoever this is) made a new account just to repeat the same non-policy based argument another user has already made.
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It's like having an article on very tall people. Sure we can find lots of usage of the phrase in reliable sources, but no clear cut-off.
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My argument is not irrelevant whatsoever. This is not based on my bias or opinion this is off sources across the web, thank you I will.
1376:"ultra-left" is an appropriate label. Even if you did make this argument soundly, it would not matter, because again, you need to bring
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or contains buzzwords, then leaving something in the talk section to explain the issue is going to be necessary to have it fixed.
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Looks good to me, although it would benefit from a clearer explanation of the ultra left's relationship with left communism.
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So where are the sources then? Bring them to this discussion so everyone else can evaluate whether or not they are
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against other socialists, communists, and anarchists within far-left parties who advocate strategies which some
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Serge Cosseron, âLes militants d'ultragauche ont âune volontĂ© d'aller au contact des forces de l'ordreââ,
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PaxEquilibrium may not have read the article before making that suggestion! I wouldn't support that idea.
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The concept of âultraleftismâ (or âultra-leftismâ) encompasses, in the broadest sense of the term,
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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article is also not neutral. So there should be both or neither or there is a double standard. -
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to show that such an argument is made prominently and that it is not your personal assumptions.
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Thus, the article should be changed -- by me or by someone else. --Felix, 10 December 2007
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The term is however the subject of contradictory definitions, particularly in France.
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I think all of these are good points. I went ahead and removed it myself.
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That might be true, but you would have to discuss it on the other page.
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I am honestly unsure why we have multiple separate pages for the terms
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Why don't we have a list of such parties? Over here we've had/have the
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Some currents, including Italian communists, prefer to use the term â
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Your argument or your beliefs are still irrelevant. If it's true
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using Marxâs critiques of ideology. For ultra-leftists, it is a
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An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect
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sourcing, but I really don't see any reason to delete it.
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far-left individuals from others labeled âultra-leftâ.
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here is a link to the exact version of the page I used
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should be kept on the combined article, or moved into
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Nice work Bob. Thanks for taking the time to do it! --
1068:. Ultra-leftism criticizes all dogmatic and official
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The point made by communists, from 1918 onwards, is
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1235:Positioning on the spectrum & title change.
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622:Ultra leftism
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565:and the ]. --
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473:and Pannekoek
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290:(7 sections)
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288:Ultra-leftism
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278:Section sizes
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1158:Soviet Union
1148:
1140:
1131:â say hello!
1107:â say hello!
1094:
1090:
1088:revolution.
1054:anti-fascism
1046:electoralism
1027:
1019:Luxemburgism
1000:
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970:Template:POV
967:
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776:â Preceding
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655:â Preceding
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630:Radical left
619:
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507:â Preceding
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478:doesnât work
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295:Section name
241:
201:
136:
96:
40:WikiProjects
1225:Read online
1221:Le Parisien
1196:Read online
1123:postleft â
1099:postleft â
1078:proletariat
1050:syndicalism
882:APenInSpace
714:Warofdreams
535:âPreceding
440:Warofdreams
30:Start-class
1522:Categories
1175:ultra-left
1141:References
1086:worker-led
1015:Spartacism
854:ultra-left
363:References
1487:Artanisen
1448:Artanisen
1403:JSPolitic
1371:JSPolitic
1335:JSPolitic
1258:far-right
1242:JSPolitic
1192:L'Express
1126:(Arugula)
1102:(Arugula)
1066:anarchism
1062:guerrilla
1023:Bordigism
701:User:R-41
428:think? --
112:Socialism
103:socialism
59:Socialism
1309:reliable
1154:Leninist
1042:far-left
815:Marxists
811:Marxists
790:contribs
778:unsigned
657:unsigned
646:lquilter
638:far left
626:Far left
537:unsigned
509:unsigned
350:See also
217:Politics
208:politics
164:Politics
1294:QIL9800
1070:Marxism
1007:Marxist
848:Hello,
407:13,759
303:Section
244:on the
139:on the
1464:Centre
1423:Centre
1383:Centre
1314:Centre
1116:Oops,
1056:, and
710:WP:AFD
605:merge?
581:Duncan
454:Duncan
404:13,759
383:1,043
344:4,335
331:6,301
305:total
36:scale.
1470:Right
1429:Right
1418:WP:RS
1389:Right
1320:Right
401:Total
380:1,043
341:4,335
328:6,301
311:(Top)
300:count
1505:talk
1491:talk
1467:Left
1452:talk
1426:Left
1407:talk
1386:Left
1358:talk
1339:talk
1317:Left
1298:talk
1282:talk
1266:talk
1246:talk
1017:and
1009:and
983:talk
972:and
954:talk
939:talk
935:FSAB
918:talk
901:talk
886:talk
863:talk
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786:talk
755:talk
718:talk
684:talk
665:talk
644:. --
545:talk
517:talk
482:real
444:talk
396:960
357:121
318:969
298:Byte
1501:TFD
1278:TFD
1021:or
469:not
393:960
370:30
354:121
315:969
236:Low
131:Low
1524::
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367:30
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248:.
143:.
42::
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