192:
171:
932:. That article does deal with modern versions of the legend, but it relies on secondary sources to judge which information is the most important. If the article were to collect all the pop culture mentions of Arthur it would be extraordinarily long and not at all useful to a reader wanting to gain a real understanding of the subject. I think this trend is a very good one in general, though it does sometimes make us come off as brusque, which is not a good thing. Cheers,--
401:
380:
139:
77:
53:
490:
469:
312:
291:
500:
783:
appears in the miniseries Merlin, in which he is portrayed as a tyrant played by Rutger Hauer. He appears in the film The Last Legion, in which he is portrayed as a tyrant played by Harry Van Gorkum." need be deleted for both relate to contemporary artistic work which use
Vortigern as a charachter. This is common practice in articles containing Historical charachters such as
22:
607:...Weird to notice how history is intermingled with fiction, in MANY so-called "academic" English materials. As if one was trying to invent a more appealing history than what really happened. PLEASE, can someone separate both? Separate fiction from history? It is much too hard and confusing in this context for one to seriously study the history of briton/England!
87:
1147:
I don't know why you would do that, as you are completely wrong. The spelling of the name of the pillar inscription is 9th century Old Welsh (and I have fixed the article to reflect this - don't know why the anachronistic term "Brythonic" was added here). If you don't have any specialist knowledge on
743:
which states "Section names should not explicitly refer to the subject of the article, or to higher-level headings, unless doing so is shorter or clearer. For example, Early life is preferable to His early life when His means the subject of the article; headings can be assumed to be about the subject
661:
Europeans take great pride in living in a country older than the United States. What use is it to have such a long history if nobody even knows the history? 400 AD isn't 'that' long ago, you'd think there'd be a little more fact than fiction in these stories. Is this truly all we got for the most
889:
Not offended the least bit, it just seems that most individuals on
Knowledge who are common fictional characters gain a popular culture section that is not based on secondary sources but instead relies on the stability of the main page for that book/movie/song/etc... I am not sure how I feel about
782:
Vortigern's presence in Jack Whyte's novel needs to be respected as a legitimate literary reference, or the section "[[Vortigern is played by Welsh actor Hefin Wyn in the 2008 Anglo-American fantasy film Merlin and the War of the
Dragons, in which he is portrayed as the successor to Arthur. He also
578:
I came here to see if
Vortigern was used before Geoffrey. It says that Bede mentioned him in his chronica maiora and his Chronica Vurtigernus. Chronica Maiora appears to have been written in the 13th century, and the latter one I cannot find a source for, but it doesn't sound like Bede. It says he
1131:
I've altered "Brythonic" to "Goidelic" in relation to the "Guorthigern" version of the name. I assume it was a simple slip (no authority is quoted): the clearest difference between the
Brythonic and Goidelic language groups is that the former has p/b/v where the latter has c/g/gh so Vortigern is
1031:
Geoffrey of
Monmouth locates Vortigern as the leader the Gewissei tribe of Celts, linked to Hwicce and the area linking the Welsh of Wales with those of Dumnonia. Given thatt this area was only conquered by the Saxons later, and Hwicce is linked etymologically to "frontier", and had even under
808:
We don't need to include every modern fantasy or historical fiction novel that has included
Vortigern as a minor character, nor should we cherry-pick one or a few such references based only on our personal taste. Whyte's novel is surely only one of several that have included Vortigern in some
677:
You have to realise this was a time of great turmoil. The Roman legions left
Britain, the Roman Empire collapsed, and Britain was invaded by Anglo-Saxon tribes who were illiterate. The Anglo-Saxons were later converted to Christianity, and with Christianity writing resumed. This period is
860:; it's hard to tell what information is important if we don't have sources to go back to. I think there are probably reliable sources out there discussing Vortigern in art and literature; with those we will be able to gauge what information we ought to include here.--
632:
As the article says, fact and legend are already mixed in the primary sources themselves. This article just recounts what is said there. It may be "hard and confusing" to study, but this is all we're left with, underground dragons and
787:. Because Vortigern is not nearly as popular of a charachter he needn't have an entire page to his own, therefore the cultural references should be included regardless how historically interesting they are such as the
813:
indicating that this is a particularly notable appearance, as has been done with the other material in the section, then it could be included. Until then, I'm removing it along with the unsourced film appearances.--
1168:
Whoever edited the section on
William of Malmesbury evidently forgot to add the second quotation they meant to supply (from "De Gestis Regum Anglorum book I, chapter 23" according to the entry).
1288:
362:
352:
1293:
1132:
pretty clearly already
Brythonic (and why should it be otherwise)? What a Goidelic version of the name is doing one doesn't know, but there was Irish settlement on the Welsh coasts.
587:
was written in 725 AD. There is no such thing as the "Chronica Vurtigernus". I think the poor composition of this paragraph in the article confused you; I have tidied it up a bit.
1253:
328:
153:
1283:
1092:
Yep, certainly appears that way, a previous anonymous user re-added it after a removal. If something similar needs to be added back, it certainly needs to be referenced,
324:
319:
296:
1032:
Cerdic, Cynric and Ceawlin kings with Celtic and not Germanic names, it seems that the later West Saxons were not oriiginally Germanic but were in fact Celtiic.
237:
231:
1195:
1248:
323:, a group of contributors interested in Knowledge's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our
1303:
451:
441:
1148:
a subject, you should really resist the urge to edit articles here. You are only misleading others and making more work for those of us who know better.
148:
63:
928:
status whatever useful information is contained in these sections is merged into the article proper. A terrific example in this field is our article on
1308:
579:
paraphrases Gildas in his other works, so he probably never named Vortigern? If Geoffrey is the first source for this than the article is not clear.
225:
1263:
105:
1318:
1273:
556:
546:
417:
273:
263:
1298:
1258:
1077:
623:
109:
416:, the Arthurian era and related topics on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1323:
1278:
1243:
1175:
663:
744:
unless otherwise indicated." The name Vortigern explicitly returns to the subject of the article, therefore it is totally unnecessary.
678:
definitely a "dark age" in terms of historical evidence. There is even less historical information about King Arthur than Vortigern.--
113:
1221:
1012:
p. 58. I originally thought that the IP who added this in 2005 was paraphrasing Jones, but it looks as though it came from Vermaat.
708:
408:
385:
104:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
1054:
989:
939:
867:
820:
766:
640:
522:
221:
1112:
Arthur is mentioned several times in the article, but there is no indication of the role Vortigern played in Arthurian legend.--
1313:
1268:
100:
58:
1196:
https://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/conlee-prose-merlin-vortigers-demise-the-battle-of-salisbury-and-the-death-of-pendragon
963:
The disambiguation page has a number of Germani, does anyone know which one? That is the St. Germanus in the Bede section. -
784:
726:
33:
513:
474:
217:
204:
176:
1005:
I don't consider this a reliable source. I have also found copyvio there, specifically the calculations paragraph at
1137:
809:
fashion, but it is not given a source or context on what makes it important enough to be mentioned. If you find a
921:
740:
1081:
619:
1179:
667:
1037:
191:
170:
1225:
615:
1133:
1117:
683:
39:
651:
I'd have to agree. If you're studying medieval history, you're going to run in to this problem a lot.
722:
697:
Could you tell me how to pronouce his name correctly? I would guess vÉË(r)ti'gÉË(r)n. That's right? --
1203:
1171:
1073:
1051:
1017:
986:
936:
864:
817:
763:
714:
637:
611:
21:
979:
810:
521:
on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1033:
718:
698:
1194:
Especially the manner of his death - being burned to death in his tower by Uther and Pendragon (
1153:
592:
1113:
1097:
1070:
This is not referenced at all and reads like a series of unqualified opinions and musings.
1021:
968:
920:
Actually, Knowledge is (hopefully) trending away from pop culture sections. See for example
895:
839:
798:
749:
679:
92:
1199:
1048:
1013:
983:
933:
861:
814:
760:
634:
400:
379:
213:
856:
I hope you don't take it the wrong way. I only meant that article need to be based on
1237:
1006:
216:. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or you can visit the
1149:
925:
857:
596:
588:
583:
Vortigern is first mentioned by Gildas, who wrote in the early 6th century. Bede's
505:
890:
it, just what we did seems kindof contrary to the main trend that I have observed
220:, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks or take part in the
741:
Knowledge:Manual of Style#Article titles, headings, and sections#Section headings
1093:
964:
929:
891:
835:
794:
745:
413:
76:
52:
495:
82:
652:
198:
138:
1041:
924:. While many decent articles still have them, as the pages are improved to
489:
468:
311:
290:
739:"Vortigern: history or apochrya" is an inappropriate title according to
208:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge's coverage of the ancient
112:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
518:
209:
1229:
1207:
1183:
1157:
1141:
1121:
1101:
1085:
1059:
994:
972:
944:
899:
872:
843:
825:
802:
771:
753:
701:
687:
671:
655:
645:
584:
1047:
Geoffrey of Monmouth is not reliable for 5th century history.--
15:
834:
Not sure if I agree with that decision but it is reasonable.
137:
327:. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our
517:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
412:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
1218:
Pictured above Vortigern sits at the edge of a pool
1289:Low-importance Classical Greece and Rome articles
1294:All WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome pages
337:Knowledge:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome
1190:The article lacks the Rober de Boron tradition
759:That's correct. I must have missed that one.--
340:Template:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome
8:
1254:Low-importance biography (royalty) articles
1284:B-Class Classical Greece and Rome articles
1169:
463:
374:
285:
165:
47:
1000:
711:. --Babeuf 08:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
465:
376:
287:
167:
49:
19:
320:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome
7:
1249:B-Class biography (royalty) articles
511:This article is within the scope of
406:This article is within the scope of
317:This article is within the scope of
98:This article is within the scope of
1304:Low-importance King Arthur articles
1001:Vermaat's website Vortigern Studies
38:It is of interest to the following
343:Classical Greece and Rome articles
14:
426:Knowledge:WikiProject King Arthur
1309:WikiProject King Arthur articles
573:
498:
488:
467:
429:Template:WikiProject King Arthur
399:
378:
310:
289:
190:
169:
149:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility
85:
75:
51:
20:
551:This article has been rated as
446:This article has been rated as
357:This article has been rated as
268:This article has been rated as
122:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography
1264:WikiProject Biography articles
672:00:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
125:Template:WikiProject Biography
1:
1319:Low-importance Wales articles
1274:Low-importance Celts articles
1022:10:35, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
597:03:35, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
525:and see a list of open tasks.
420:and see a list of open tasks.
146:This article is supported by
1299:B-Class King Arthur articles
1184:17:09, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
1122:06:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
1102:14:30, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
1086:14:16, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
1008:which is from Michael Jones
785:King Arthur in various media
707:I will ask this question at
702:21:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
688:06:47, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
646:21:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
110:contribute to the discussion
1259:Royalty work group articles
1230:15:29, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
1158:16:14, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
1142:15:47, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
531:Knowledge:WikiProject Wales
248:Knowledge:WikiProject Celts
1340:
1324:WikiProject Wales articles
1279:WikiProject Celts articles
1244:B-Class biography articles
1060:12:13, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
1042:09:40, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
709:WP:Reference desk/language
656:22:10, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
557:project's importance scale
534:Template:WikiProject Wales
452:project's importance scale
363:project's importance scale
274:project's importance scale
251:Template:WikiProject Celts
1208:17:22, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
922:Knowledge:Trivia sections
550:
483:
445:
394:
356:
334:Classical Greece and Rome
305:
297:Classical Greece and Rome
267:
185:
145:
70:
46:
1026:
1010:The End of Roman Britain
995:22:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
973:21:44, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
945:02:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
900:02:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
873:22:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
844:21:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
826:20:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
803:20:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
772:12:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
754:02:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
1220:-- isn't he standing?--
574:Bede's Chronica Maiora?
409:WikiProject King Arthur
202:is within the scope of
1314:B-Class Wales articles
1269:B-Class Celts articles
142:
28:This article is rated
1213:Dragons image caption
141:
101:WikiProject Biography
1027:Vortigern's location
789:Vortigern and Rowina
778:Jack Whyte reference
735:Vortigern in section
432:King Arthur articles
64:Royalty and Nobility
980:Germanus of Auxerre
662:accurate picture?
212:and the modern day
1164:Incomplete section
143:
128:biography articles
34:content assessment
1186:
1174:comment added by
1076:comment added by
1057:
992:
942:
870:
823:
769:
730:
717:comment added by
643:
628:
614:comment added by
571:
570:
567:
566:
563:
562:
514:WikiProject Wales
462:
461:
458:
457:
373:
372:
369:
368:
284:
283:
280:
279:
205:WikiProject Celts
164:
163:
160:
159:
1331:
1134:Diomedea Exulans
1088:
1055:
990:
940:
926:featured article
868:
858:reliable sources
821:
811:secondary source
767:
712:
641:
627:
608:
539:
538:
535:
532:
529:
508:
503:
502:
501:
492:
485:
484:
479:
471:
464:
434:
433:
430:
427:
424:
403:
396:
395:
390:
382:
375:
345:
344:
341:
338:
335:
314:
307:
306:
301:
293:
286:
256:
255:
252:
249:
246:
194:
187:
186:
181:
173:
166:
130:
129:
126:
123:
120:
106:join the project
95:
93:Biography portal
90:
89:
88:
79:
72:
71:
66:
55:
48:
31:
25:
24:
16:
1339:
1338:
1334:
1333:
1332:
1330:
1329:
1328:
1234:
1233:
1215:
1192:
1166:
1129:
1110:
1071:
1068:
1029:
1003:
982:. I fixed it.--
961:
780:
737:
695:
609:
605:
585:Chronica maiora
576:
536:
533:
530:
527:
526:
504:
499:
497:
477:
431:
428:
425:
422:
421:
388:
342:
339:
336:
333:
332:
299:
253:
250:
247:
244:
243:
179:
127:
124:
121:
118:
117:
91:
86:
84:
61:
32:on Knowledge's
29:
12:
11:
5:
1337:
1335:
1327:
1326:
1321:
1316:
1311:
1306:
1301:
1296:
1291:
1286:
1281:
1276:
1271:
1266:
1261:
1256:
1251:
1246:
1236:
1235:
1214:
1211:
1191:
1188:
1165:
1162:
1161:
1160:
1128:
1125:
1109:
1106:
1105:
1104:
1078:124.168.39.161
1067:
1064:
1063:
1062:
1028:
1025:
1002:
999:
998:
997:
960:
957:
956:
955:
954:
953:
952:
951:
950:
949:
948:
947:
909:
908:
907:
906:
905:
904:
903:
902:
880:
879:
878:
877:
876:
875:
849:
848:
847:
846:
829:
828:
779:
776:
775:
774:
736:
733:
732:
731:
694:
691:
675:
674:
649:
648:
616:207.112.49.180
604:
601:
600:
599:
575:
572:
569:
568:
565:
564:
561:
560:
553:Low-importance
549:
543:
542:
540:
537:Wales articles
523:the discussion
510:
509:
493:
481:
480:
478:Lowâimportance
472:
460:
459:
456:
455:
448:Low-importance
444:
438:
437:
435:
418:the discussion
404:
392:
391:
389:Lowâimportance
383:
371:
370:
367:
366:
359:Low-importance
355:
349:
348:
346:
315:
303:
302:
300:Lowâimportance
294:
282:
281:
278:
277:
270:Low-importance
266:
260:
259:
257:
254:Celts articles
214:Celtic nations
195:
183:
182:
180:Lowâimportance
174:
162:
161:
158:
157:
154:Low-importance
144:
134:
133:
131:
97:
96:
80:
68:
67:
56:
44:
43:
37:
26:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1336:
1325:
1322:
1320:
1317:
1315:
1312:
1310:
1307:
1305:
1302:
1300:
1297:
1295:
1292:
1290:
1287:
1285:
1282:
1280:
1277:
1275:
1272:
1270:
1267:
1265:
1262:
1260:
1257:
1255:
1252:
1250:
1247:
1245:
1242:
1241:
1239:
1232:
1231:
1227:
1223:
1219:
1212:
1210:
1209:
1205:
1201:
1197:
1189:
1187:
1185:
1181:
1177:
1176:92.10.250.109
1173:
1163:
1159:
1155:
1151:
1146:
1145:
1144:
1143:
1139:
1135:
1126:
1124:
1123:
1119:
1115:
1107:
1103:
1099:
1095:
1091:
1090:
1089:
1087:
1083:
1079:
1075:
1065:
1061:
1058:
1052:
1050:
1046:
1045:
1044:
1043:
1039:
1035:
1034:John D. Croft
1024:
1023:
1019:
1015:
1011:
1007:
996:
993:
987:
985:
981:
977:
976:
975:
974:
970:
966:
958:
946:
943:
937:
935:
931:
927:
923:
919:
918:
917:
916:
915:
914:
913:
912:
911:
910:
901:
897:
893:
888:
887:
886:
885:
884:
883:
882:
881:
874:
871:
865:
863:
859:
855:
854:
853:
852:
851:
850:
845:
841:
837:
833:
832:
831:
830:
827:
824:
818:
816:
812:
807:
806:
805:
804:
800:
796:
792:
790:
786:
777:
773:
770:
764:
762:
758:
757:
756:
755:
751:
747:
742:
734:
728:
724:
720:
716:
710:
706:
705:
704:
703:
700:
693:Pronunciation
692:
690:
689:
685:
681:
673:
669:
665:
664:98.165.16.149
660:
659:
658:
657:
654:
647:
644:
638:
636:
631:
630:
629:
625:
621:
617:
613:
602:
598:
594:
590:
586:
582:
581:
580:
558:
554:
548:
545:
544:
541:
524:
520:
516:
515:
507:
496:
494:
491:
487:
486:
482:
476:
473:
470:
466:
453:
449:
443:
440:
439:
436:
419:
415:
411:
410:
405:
402:
398:
397:
393:
387:
384:
381:
377:
364:
360:
354:
351:
350:
347:
330:
326:
322:
321:
316:
313:
309:
308:
304:
298:
295:
292:
288:
275:
271:
265:
262:
261:
258:
241:
240:
235:
234:
229:
228:
223:
219:
215:
211:
207:
206:
201:
200:
196:
193:
189:
188:
184:
178:
175:
172:
168:
155:
152:(assessed as
151:
150:
140:
136:
135:
132:
115:
114:documentation
111:
107:
103:
102:
94:
83:
81:
78:
74:
73:
69:
65:
60:
57:
54:
50:
45:
41:
35:
27:
23:
18:
17:
1217:
1216:
1193:
1170:â Preceding
1167:
1130:
1111:
1072:â Preceding
1069:
1030:
1009:
1004:
962:
959:St. Germanus
793:
788:
781:
738:
696:
676:
650:
606:
577:
552:
512:
506:Wales portal
447:
407:
358:
325:project page
318:
269:
238:
232:
226:
218:project page
203:
197:
147:
99:
40:WikiProjects
1222:2.202.3.216
1114:Jack Upland
1108:King Arthur
1066:Incest Slur
930:King Arthur
713:âPreceding
680:Jack Upland
610:âPreceding
423:King Arthur
414:King Arthur
386:King Arthur
1238:Categories
1200:SNAAAAKE!!
1049:CĂșchullain
1014:Dougweller
984:CĂșchullain
934:CĂșchullain
862:CĂșchullain
815:CĂșchullain
761:CĂșchullain
635:CĂșchullain
222:discussion
1127:Brythonic
329:talk page
224:. Please
199:Vortigern
119:Biography
59:Biography
1172:unsigned
1074:unsigned
727:contribs
715:unsigned
624:contribs
612:unsigned
1150:Cagwinn
589:Cagwinn
555:on the
450:on the
361:on the
272:on the
30:B-class
1094:Sadads
965:SADADS
892:SADADS
836:SADADS
795:SADADS
791:play.
746:SADADS
719:Babeuf
699:Babeuf
633:all.--
239:Assess
236:, and
233:Create
36:scale.
978:It's
603:Weird
528:Wales
519:Wales
475:Wales
245:Celts
210:Celts
177:Celts
1226:talk
1204:talk
1180:talk
1154:talk
1138:talk
1118:talk
1098:talk
1082:talk
1038:talk
1018:talk
969:talk
896:talk
840:talk
799:talk
750:talk
723:talk
684:talk
668:talk
653:Wrad
620:talk
593:talk
227:Join
108:and
1198:).
547:Low
442:Low
353:Low
264:Low
1240::
1228:)
1206:)
1182:)
1156:)
1140:)
1120:)
1100:)
1084:)
1040:)
1020:)
971:)
898:)
842:)
801:)
752:)
729:)
725:âą
686:)
670:)
626:)
622:âą
595:)
230:,
156:).
62::
1224:(
1202:(
1178:(
1152:(
1136:(
1116:(
1096:(
1080:(
1056:c
1053:/
1036:(
1016:(
991:c
988:/
967:(
941:c
938:/
894:(
869:c
866:/
838:(
822:c
819:/
797:(
768:c
765:/
748:(
721:(
682:(
666:(
642:c
639:/
618:(
591:(
559:.
454:.
365:.
331:.
276:.
242:.
116:.
42::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
