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you neglected to mention. According to the preface to Volume 7: "Emperors are referred to by their temple names during their reign and by their personal names prior to their accession." Calling an individual by his title during that period is probably so to facilitate narrative clarity, and does not indicate "common name" in my opinion. The "common name" is the one the authors use in the index, and that is "Chu Yu-lang", at least that's how I look at it. Otherwise why would they use "Chu Yu-lang" in the index?
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The
Russian entry "Чжу Юйцзянь" is also a transliteration of "Zhu Yujian". Anyway, I think this is an important move request and probably should be relisted multiple times to involve more editors familiar with Chinese history to build a consensus. At the very least, we both agree the current titles
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Point taken and my inaccurate remarks deleted. Yes, you are correct that 10/11 of appearances of "Chu Yu-lang" are in the index/appendix and I failed to mention that. However, if you only look at the narrative, there are also 3 mentions of "Prince of Yung-ming" referencing the same individual that
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uses "Yung-li emperor" almost exclusively in the main text, the only exception being p. 677, where the prince is introduced, before he was proclaimed emperor. All other ten appearances of his personal name occur in the index or appendix, a fact you neglected to mention. Your other argument, as to
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emperors, Southern Ming being more of a (at times not even cohesive) resistant movement after the fall of the Ming empire, rather than an actual empire, these so-called emperors more like fugitives. The current titles are also bad, support moves to
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whether they "deserve" to be called emperors, is irrelevant. History is full of emperors and monarchs who have little real power, but article titles are about common names, not about whether the person deserves the title. As I mentioned before,
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This RM has been left open for over a month, and there has still only been two participants other than the proposer. I suggest waiting a couple of months, and trying again, this time notifying relevant WikiProjects (like
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In the
Chinese tradition, the subsequent dynasty produces an "official history" of the previous dynasty. The Qing historians classify the Hongguang emperor as a legit ruler. The other three are considered
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Thanks for taking the time to research the sources. The picture becomes much clearer if you include
Chinese sources, which are far more extensive than English ones. For example, Google search for
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vol. 7 said that "Prince of Kuei" ("Prince of Gui") was an inaccurate designation used by many Qing and 20th-century historians. (Another reason I prefer personal names over noble titles.)
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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related articles on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Each of these "emperors" was progressively less imperial than the last. So the Prince of Fu can certainly be moved to
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most other
Wikipedias use their imperial titles, there's no good reason why the English wiki should be different. -
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have their articles under their imperial titles (with capitalized "Emperor") rather than personal names. -
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And how could you make the claim "all other
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On another note, "emperor" should be lower cased when it appears after the era name. (See
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respectively, since I'm not seeing any disambiguation with these personal names.
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Misleading information provided by nominator in regards to the "authoritative"
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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need to go, especially the "Zhu
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Most other
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than by their personal names and titles before they became emperors.
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the corresponding personal name "Chu Yu-lang" occurred 11 times
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only 70 results for "Yung-li emperor" + "Southern Ming"
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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is hardly an argument as the people in question are
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Stub-Class China-related articles of Mid-importance
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519:"隆武帝"
515:"朱聿键"
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