1889:. The main standard treatments of Chinese literature (think the Cambridge volumes, Idema & Haft, Loewe, etc.) do not get into the details these books give, and so neither do we. One must understand that Knowledge articles are not textbook entries and are aimed at an educated but definitely non-specialist audience, and so we must be very judicious with the scope of articles and details given. For example: Schaberg's book is particularly good, but its discussions are mostly too erudite for the scope of a Knowledge article, with the possible exception of the appendix. An easy test of this is to look at Kern's review of it in the
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update appropriately. Knowledge is never a cutting-edge source, for reasons that it takes time for things to be published and academic consensus to broadly coalesce, and then itself be formulated by experts for a general audience. Good
Knowledge editors are cautious and judicious here, for reasons explained at the policy pages I reference earlier, as well as as
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worth acknowledging (with the back-handed compliments that they're too "erudite" or "deep-level"). Li, in particular, has a very good summary, early in her book, of the competing positions and their strengths and weaknesses. I'd recommend that over
Karlgren and Maspero for any interested reader, specialist or not.--
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Thinking about it some more and, regarding "except for words that are themselves proper nouns", since in the context of this article "Zuo Zhuan" is (perhaps arguably) a loan into in
English, and not simply a transcription of Chinese as is the case with academic articles about the text which render it
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Outside academia, it also looks like published translations of the work that leave the title untranslated are sold as "Zuo Zhuan"; same seems to be true for untranslated
Chinese texts sold to English-language markets. Since this is Knowledge and not an academic journal, I think this is also something
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In any case, that's the general policy. If you think that the Wade version of this name is common enough in
English, it might merit inclusion in the lead for that reason. (But it should be in the running text and bolded in that case.) We can also add a name section here if you really want to dig into
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The
Cambridge volumes, Loewe, etc. were all written before the three books that I listed, so that's irrelevant. Anyway, the bottom line is that if you guys think it's OK to leave the article with Karlgren and Maspero, then you're basically saying that the last eighty years of scholarship aren't even
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The historian-narrator in Tso chuan is largely absent. In contrast to the roughly contemporary Greek historians
Herodotus and Thucydides, who repeatedly enter their histories as a first-person “I” to explain the meaning of prose events or to comment upon the validity of variant accounts, the narrator
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I appear not to have made myself sufficiently clear. Let's use your
Maspero/Karlgren example. Those lines were drawn from comprehensive, field-level sources that are widely known and accepted and aimed at a broad audience. If a newer such source comes forth and achieves equal levels, then we will
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The license tag needs to be changed. The {{self}} tag is for images that you are the sole creator of, e.g. a diagram that you drew yourself. A scan of an existing public domain work should be tagged {{PD-scan-100}}. Additionally, the source should be the book that the image was scanned from and the
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At a minimum, they have to be cited as relevant books worth consulting. Knowledge can't ordinarily afford to ignore scholarship on the grounds that it's too "far-reaching" or "deep-level." You can't just leave the discussion of the textual history with
Karlgren and Maspero, and dismiss everything
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This is a tricky one since, based on your comment, a trailer something like "one of the five orders of nobility in ancient China" should be added to every Duke of this period and there are an awful lot of them. My view is that people reading up in this area well soon become familiar with the titles
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the article is fine as is. These sorts of books tend to get into far-reaching and deep-level theoretical constructions and analyses that, in my experience, are not terribly useful when writing encyclopedic entries. I'll look at these and see if there's anything worth adding. We might convert the
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The presented bilingual text (as well as any other Legge translation appearing here) is actually Legge's translation to the chun qiu, not the zuo zhuan. The details from the zuo zhuan are only included in Legge's commentary together with details from other sources, his own conculsions and his own
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The dilemma is that common academic practice is to only capitalize the first word in
Chinese literary titles, which contradicts the Knowledge guideline to capitalize all words of proper names. Removing the optional space would solve the issue nicely, at least in this case. By the way, great work
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Searching on Google Scholar it looks like there are plenty of examples of "Zuo zhuan", "Zuo Zhuan", and "Zuozhuan". There are even examples where "Zuo zhuan" is used in the text but "Zuo Zhuan" is used in the title. This suggests to me that there is no universal standard and that capitalisation
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I can assure you that all of these books are "widely accepted." In Knowledge articles in the sciences, you don't wait decades for researchers to die before you decide that their work is "widely accepted." You could certainly add the books by Pines and Schaberg to the "further readings"
2410:)'s "either/or" addition over there? I just reread that section on the talk page the other day, and I have real doubts on its correctness, not to mention whether we have sufficient consensus on it. I'd like to readdress that issue when I'm finished with final exam season.
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does not seem to discuss capitalization of transliterated names from non-Latin scripts that do not have capital letters. The evidence above also suggests there is no overwhelming pattern of use for some specific capitalization. I can see arguments both ways.
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and the new translation referenced above, for example, use "Zuo Tradition"). In early uses like this, "transmission" is probably the most accurate, but it's problematic because of "transmission"'s new meanings in modern English, especially American
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If it's that obvious then the page should be moved to "Zho zhuan". Are there any other articles on Chinese works where the titles are in sentence case? They would serve as precedents. Also run a Ctrl+F search to fix all those inconsistent names.
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Unlike the Histories of Herodotus or the History of the Peloponnesian War of Thucydides—with which it is roughly contemporary—the Zuo zhuan's narration always remains in the third person perspective, and presents as a dispassionate recorder of
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suggest RfC is not appropriate here since this about applying guidelines to a specific case. Although maybe someone should start a separate discussion with a RfC to clarify Knowledge policy/guidelines regarding this issue more generally, idk.
2022:. I promise I will go and re-read Li's section you referenced: if it has formulations and material that is widely accepted and accords with the other major sources we have referenced, I will happily add it. I hope this makes things clearer.
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Another topic that recurs in several of the most famous sections of Tso chuan is that of the succession crisis. Such crises, which seem to have been frequent in Spring and Autumn China, usually involved the tangled affections of political
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It's not really "duke" anyway because the Chinese title gong 公 is used to refer to a deceased lord of any rank. See C.N. Tay, “On the Interpretation of kung (Duke?) in the Tso-chuan,” Journal of the American Oriental Society 93.4 (1973):
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Can anyone tell me about the textual history of the Zuozhuan. What is the earliest xylograph, what are the extant manuscripts, which is the earliest, etc. etc. I would love to see some of this information incorporated into the article.
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speak Chinese/read pinyin, which makes it superfluous. It belongs at Wiktionary and really shouldn't even be in the infoboxes. (Yeah, that can be my minority viewpoint. I'm certainly not removing it from any infoboxes, pending new
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The article overuses turns of phrase quoted from the secondary sources. Quotations should be used for controversial opinions, technical/unusual terms coined by the author, or lines from primary sources. Quotes such as
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research notes. There are indeed places where he gives a full translation of the zuo zhuan's passeges, but it seems that he mostly gives the reader a digested version of what is written, and not a direct translation.
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Wrong, Legge included a complete translation of the Zuo. It is maddeningly interspersed in his notes, as you've observed, but the translation is complete (and amazingly accurate, considering his circumstances).--
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1901:, but a deep dive into the intellectual and cultural features of the middle Zhou period, and contains a number of controversial interpretations. These things are just not notable enough for inclusion in a
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2458:)'s noting of a "dilemma" constitutes "agreeing" with your position. In any case, his note isn't valid, since Knowledge's "guideline to capitalize all words of proper names" falls under the penumbra of
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all three of the books you listed. If you are unable to accurately comprehend written information and make correct statements, I'm afraid you will find participating on Knowledge to be quite difficult.
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As a note, if we were to apply the standard of "Zuo zhuan" on Knowledge, then a lot of other articles are going to need renaming to conform to that standard, starting with the two other commentaries.
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When Schaberg, Li, & Durrant (2016) finally isn't back-ordered I'll peruse their introduction and see if they incorporate any of this material. I hope this makes things a bit more clear.
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and it jars so much with standard MOS capitalization rules that it will create constant makework removing "corrections"), the proper Chinese formatting for this name would be
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This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the
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Several of the most notable passages in the Zuo zhuan describe succession crises, which seem to have been fairly common in China during the Spring and Autumn period
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SCHABERG, David. A Patterned Past: Form and Thought in Early Chinese Historiography. Harvard East Asian Monographs 205. Cambridge, Mass., and London, 2001.
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Why is the title "Zho Zhuan" when the article calls it "Zho zhuan"? Even in some places in the article you say "Zhuan" and not "zhuan". Consistency is needed.
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speak Chinese/read pinyin", when the truth is almost exactly the opposite. The entire point of IPA is to make a word's pronunciation clear to those who do
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Why do your first two search results have the second word as "zhuang"? That is nonsensical, and I assume a typo on your part? If not, please enlighten me.
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2292:) can describe the changes he wishes to make. It sounds like they might involve significant changes and/or additions to the current section on leads at
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2623:. It has long been the standard practice in the field to not capitalize the titles of Chinese works except for words that are themselves proper nouns.
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Finally, it is quite standard in Sinological literature to not capitalize literary titles' words/morphemes unless they are themselves proper names.
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PINES, Yuri. Foundations of Confucian Thought: Intellectual Life in the Chunqiu Period, 722-453 B.C.E. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 2002.
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already speak the language or know the romanization system in question. For example: while a layperson would not know how to pronounce 左 or
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is to be rendered without a space. The new Durrant, Li, and Schaberg translation doesn't, but a number of other recent major sources (The
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1992:"all written before the three books listed": the Literature volumes, in which is found Kern's excellent chapter, were published in 2010,
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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LI, Wai-yee. The Readability of the Past in Early Chinese Historiography. Harvard East Asian Monographs 253. Cambridge, Mass., 2007.--
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correctly, the purely phonetic /tswò/ gives a more-or-less exact rendering. IPA is our default phonetic system here on Knowledge (see
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mooted above. Did you have any arguments against it to add up there? or did you agree with him and we can get this fixed finally? —
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1893:: of the material he discusses, only his analysis of its compilation could theoretically really fit into a general article on the
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Regarding the naming issue – I responded with a number of counterarguments to which you never responded. Also, I'm not sure how
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it. Honestly, they're probably helpful for most Chinese articles, given the numerous romanizations and alt names there can be. —
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depends on the particular publisher's standards. If this is so, then I think Knowledge's Manual of Style takes precedence here.
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became unresponsive and inactive on Knowledge, so this review was closed and the article re-listed on the nominations page.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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It often has to. You may wish to familiarize yourself with how Knowledge handles these issues, such as carefully reading
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of Tso chuan presents events in an ostensibly objective fashion that puts the narrative beyond question or qualification.
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Is that so? Searching on Google Scholar I can find plenty of examples of both conventions – some papers use title case;
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I'm not sure why this is "very cute" – let's try to avoid snide comments here on WP (they're specifically mentioned at
1664:"relentlessly realistic portrayal of a turbulent era marked by violence, political strife, intrigues, and moral laxity"
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Fixed. The problem with those is that the Upload Wizard only allows CC tags to be chosen upon upload, it's a pain.
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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No copyvio/dablinks/external links issues detected. Issues raised in the previous review have been addressed.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Chinese book titles generally don't capitalize every word. These should all be changed to 'zhuan'.
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as a single word. It needs to be restored there or back to its proper English capitalization as
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issue? I have tried to use direct quotes only when they're unusual or I felt they were the
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adopting Chinglish orthography for English-language articles (which we shouldn't since
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I also do not understand why you claim that the "IPA only helpful to people who can
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translations to the new Schaberg/Lee/Durrant version soon once I look at that too.
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Sorry, I didn't have this page watched, for some reason. Will respond very soon.
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should redirect to it, not the other way around as is presently the situation.
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Any discussion of Zuo zhuan has to take into account these three recent books:
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Additionally, there is by no means any clear consensus on the translation of
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try to change the section on leads, since it's completely accurate and fits
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1342:. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
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2133:. This isn't a much-discussed volume in English but that seems to be the
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Earwig's Copyvio Detector reports that a copyright violation is unlikely.
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article that usually gets less than 50 views per day in the first place.
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as "Zuo zhuan", then general English conventions apply; in English the
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Please read carefully before you respond: the Cambridge volumes were
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author should be the creator of the original work, not the uploader.
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is very common and acceptable (see seminal works referenced above).
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Knowledge:Requests for comment#What not to use the RfC process for
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bringing this important article to GA standard, White Whirlwind! -
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points out, pinyin title cap rules are the same as English (i.e.
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is the right capitalization to use on an English-language wiki. —
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The image should be categorized and tagged Template:PD-scan-100.
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in the decades since then as unnecessary theory and analysis.--
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The prose reads very well and complies with the MOS. Good job!
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At this point, most early China specialists just say "lord."--
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Speeches feature prominently in nearly all Zuo zhuan stories.
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title is itself a proper noun so should be capitalised.
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Mid-importance social and political philosophy articles
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I checked a few other English Knowledge articles, like
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actual pinyin guidebooks capitalize each word of titles
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On 28 June 2021, it was proposed that this article be
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2852:. Each word of the title should be capitalised per
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Social and political philosophy task force articles
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2954:GA-Class China-related articles of High-importance
2396:What exactly is the issue? Are you talking about
1524:Thanks! I pride myself on good encyclopedic prose.
1491:Ok, these have now been fixed and the page moved.
3004:GA-Class social and political philosophy articles
2163:There is no academic consensus on whether or not
2994:Mid-importance philosophical literature articles
2296:, so maybe it would be better raised over there.
1087:File:Zuo zhuan, Min Qiji edition, title page.png
565:for general discussion of the article's subject.
45:. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
840:used and we should leave things as they stand.
166:. To improve this article, please refer to the
1588:I'm not sure what "densely written" means here
2361:As a sidenote, Zanhe agreed with the move to
1762:Thank you, this can now be promoted. Cheers,
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2999:Philosophical literature task force articles
1178:Random spot checks for close paraphrasing:
3039:Mid-importance Ancient philosophy articles
3024:Mid-importance Eastern philosophy articles
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2817:Sorry, I was suggesting an RFC to clarify
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1793:Missing references to three crucial books
1055:File:Li Yuanyang Zuo zhuan first page.png
2964:High-importance Chinese history articles
2248:that's very kind of you to say, thanks.
2143:by a wide margin on cursory googling. —
1138:" could be rewritten in your own words.
1030:I plan on reviewing this article soon.--
160:discuss matters related to book articles
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1544:We need more editors like you here :)
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3019:GA-Class Eastern philosophy articles
2969:WikiProject Chinese history articles
2510:The result of the move request was:
396:This article is within the scope of
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146:This article is within the scope of
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2322:No, there are no changes involved.
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2959:GA-Class Chinese history articles
2127:Hm.. or just to the English name
1156:to describe the subject at hand.
1121:Close paraphrasing/copyvio review
41:. If you can improve it further,
2906:The discussion above is closed.
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797:Textual history of the Zuozhuan
497:Social and political philosophy
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2517:closed by non-admin page mover
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1961:23:40, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
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1816:00:45, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
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29:has been listed as one of the
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574:Put new text under old text.
311:This article is supported by
263:and see a list of open tasks.
2979:GA-Class Philosophy articles
2861:Section 4.9.2 in this source
2570:) 20:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
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2355:19:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
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2883:per AjaxSmack's reference.
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2484:Requested move 28 June 2021
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1230:Spelling/grammar/MoS review
892:Bilingual text of Zuo Zhuan
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582:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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1111:21:43, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
1078:21:43, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
1043:16:50, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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444:project's importance scale
295:project's importance scale
272:Template:WikiProject China
179:Template:WikiProject Books
2743:17:23, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
2716:others use sentence case.
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2674:09:03, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
2655:08:48, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
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2616:19:07, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
2587:12:05, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
1788:02:14, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
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1456:10:55, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
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2776:23:24, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
2498:Please do not modify it.
907:10:22, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
850:21:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
835:20:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
783:WikiProject class rating
481:Philosophical literature
2924:Knowledge good articles
2477:21:41, 6 December 2017
2278:Making this section so
2180:傳 as "commentary" (the
1263:18:38, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
455:Associated task forces:
2934:GA-Class Book articles
1666:Whose words are these?
821:It's not clear what a
607:avoid personal attacks
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399:WikiProject Philosophy
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82:This article is rated
632:Neutral point of view
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2020:WP:Original research
1245:User:Khanate General
1132:official restrained
825:is in this context.
637:No original research
351:Social and political
1883:WP:Reliable sources
1148:I mean, is this an
424:Philosophy articles
2332:general guidelines
1340:Talk:Zuo Zhuan/GA2
1136:tangled affections
1000:Talk:Zuo Zhuan/GA1
618:dispute resolution
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88:content assessment
57:: June 27, 2016. (
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94:WikiProjects
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43:please do so
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2752:Suggest RFC
2729:Mx. Granger
2602:Mx. Granger
2503:move review
2385:WP:Civility
2093:Even if we
1336:transcluded
1154:mots justes
996:transcluded
680:free images
563:not a forum
2918:Categories
2575:Relisting.
2280:LlywelynII
2063:section.--
1289:Authorship
1275:GA toolbox
949:Authorship
935:GA toolbox
415:Philosophy
404:philosophy
347:Literature
342:Philosophy
37:under the
2871:AjaxSmack
2854:WP:PINYIN
2598:Zuo Zhuan
2596:per nom.
2560:Zuo zhuan
2556:Zuo Zhuan
2540:Zuo Zhuan
2536:Zuo zhuan
2294:MOS:CHINA
2192:Zuo zhuan
2165:Zuo zhuan
2110:Zuo Zhuan
1903:Zuo zhuan
1899:Zuo zhuan
1895:Zuo zhuan
1348:Reviewer:
1312:Templates
1303:Reviewing
1268:GA Review
1208:(article)
1186:(article)
1008:Reviewer:
972:Templates
963:Reviewing
928:GA Review
856:550-55.--
766:Zuo Zhuan
762:Zuo zhuan
620:if needed
603:Be polite
557:Zuo Zhuan
553:talk page
27:Zuo Zhuan
2739:contribs
2612:contribs
2456:contribs
2408:contribs
2398:Hijiri88
2368:Llywelyn
2363:Zuozhuan
2348:Llywelyn
2339:policy.)
2290:contribs
2185:English.
2146:Llywelyn
2116:Llywelyn
2104:Zuozhuan
1783:contribs
1724:contribs
1634:Deleted.
1595:Deleted.
1565:contribs
1482:contribs
1420:contribs
1390:contribs
1361:contribs
1317:Criteria
1217:(source)
1214:leaders.
1195:(source)
1021:contribs
977:Criteria
899:The duke
718:Archives
588:get help
561:This is
559:article.
84:GA-class
47:reassess
2881:Support
2850:Support
2594:Support
2433:WP:PRON
2421:already
2336:already
2138:English
1619:Content
1430:General
1235:Summary
1134:" and "
1062:Fixed.
842:Philg88
686:WP refs
674:scholar
442:on the
359:Ancient
355:Eastern
293:on the
212:History
2885:User:力
2823:User:力
2801:Scyrme
2760:User:力
2699:Scyrme
2695:entire
2680:Scyrme
2666:Scyrme
2647:Scyrme
2621:Oppose
2564:Scyrme
2522:Vpab15
2512:moved.
2328:didn't
2135:common
1737:Sainsf
1658:Themes
1351:Sainsf
1183:facts.
658:Google
90:scale.
54:Review
2867:) —
2446:Zanhe
2244:Zanhe
2221:Zanhe
2178:zhuan
1994:after
1338:from
998:from
817:Duke?
774:moved
760:from
758:moved
701:JSTOR
662:books
616:Seek
266:China
257:China
207:China
173:Books
113:Books
2805:talk
2794:and
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2723:and
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2182:CHCL
2141:name
2095:were
2069:talk
1957:talk
1891:HJAS
1885:and
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1777:talk
1768:ains
1718:talk
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1580:Lead
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808:talk
772:was
694:FENS
668:news
605:and
285:High
158:and
2429:zuǒ
2425:not
1990:not
764:to
708:TWL
434:Mid
49:it.
2920::
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2471:咨
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2370:II
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2305:咨
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2789::
2787:力
2785:@
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