Template talk:Cite journal/Archive 2

2603:

that not everyone who reads the references is familiar with their style, it might be helpful to add "p." before the page number (only citing the page number of the first page of the article, not the range), and add "issue" and "day" parameters as well. I'd also like to have spaces after the equal signs to offset the data entry from the parameter labels, and move the date information after the volume, issue, and page data. If no data were entered, obviously, the output would just omit that and continue with the next parameter that had data.

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requests for additional url param's do pop up on the citation templates. I fear a bit piling up of paramaters. Adding parameters is easy, but once we have them in the template it's nearly impossible to remove them even if they are only used on a few calls among thousands of other calls. But generally, if there is a good reason to add a parameter, then it should be done. --

1002:-like. Surprised was me that I didn't find a system I was looking for. The requirement to use inline is rather inconvenient. Using Harvard system, as of now, requires reordering everything manually in the ref list every time the refs are moved around (or it doesn't? Pls correct me then). Is there a plan for a more LaTeX-like version of cite.php? Thanks, -- 644:("copyedit") wasn't that helpful either. As there is some disagreement now, I will not rerevert. We must discuss this here first and then act when there is consensus what to do. Mzajac wants to have quotion marks, you don't want them. Splash wants to have the volume bold, you disagree. Please do sort this out on the talk page here. Thanks. -- 731:. I also told him on his talk page that I do not accept this revert warring, for which he apologized on my talk page. So you are probably responding to the wrong person here. BTW I do not care what the template looks. Please sort it out on the talk or MoS before acting on the template. I have always respected the consensus here. Thanks. -- 2919:

once said, "The great thing about standards is that there so many to choose from." It seems that every major field -- and some individual journals -- has its own preferred style. I suspect that the international standard cited above has no influence outside medicine; indeed, I would guess that there

2843:

Finally, having being adopted as an international standard (vs English-only), it will be comprehensible to wikieditors and wikireaders whose first language is not English, or who are using the Engkish Knowledge as source to write their own-language wikipedia article - there is no need for them to try

2770:

get to "reinvent the wheel" when it finds a better wheel; without going through formal proposals to international standards organizations, e.g., ISO, etc. I see the need for those elsewhere; not here. I'd like to see Knowledge provide information that's easily understood by the average reader, rather

2602:

I personally don't like the way it looks to have the volume number bolded, especially since I put in the word "Vol." and then the number when I used this template. Perhaps a compromise would be to include a comma after the publication title and "Vol." before whatever number is entered? Also, assuming

1855:

What exactly do you want to control with CSS and how exactly would you do it? Could you give some CSS code examples? In general, I have some doubts whether this is achievable. But I'm not a CSS expert. To Bookofjude: I'm not going to revert you. If you feel this is the right way to go, then please do

1778:

But still, I like Liguelm, strongly object to having this parameter. It is ok to implement the template so that an individual user controls how they see the citation by using their own CSS. It is not ok, having created and deployed these templates to give a uniform look for the casual user to then go

667:

I agree with MPF. I have never seen a scientific journal use quote marks around a title. As regards boldface for volume numbers, in the papers I've got on my desk, it's about 50:50, but I personally prefer to use boldface (for what it's worth). If other fields use other formats, then we might have to

2578:

I took to wikilinking the journal name at one time. My argument to myself was that this would provide a ready way of pulling back all articles that contain citations from a particular journal. I've since stopped because I think more elegant solutions to this surveillance problem should be crafted.

2526:

Should the journal name be wikilinked, or left as it is? I would argue that it does want to be linked, so that people who haven't heard of the journal in question can go to a page describing it (and hopefully linking to it). As it stands, this doesn't seem to be common practice, and isn't encouraged

2283:

I'd use the print paper references (e.g. volume, issue, pages, as the base template is aimed at paper references), and then just link to the epub. I don't think it's pertinent to give both dates, but adding the accessdate param is pertinent. even though mostpapers have an "acceptance date", they are

1934:

Well I suggested exactly the same in my reply posted at the same time so it is probably the natural way. Like I say, you would always change common.css so that you never print both. And yes having the reader choose rather than the writer is very important. That way we can maintain consistency across

1909:

But I think that's even more cumbersome than using two optional calls. It relies on the user having one or the other of them set to hide via Monobook.css, otherwise both would display at once... It does, however, give the option of which one should be viewed to the person who is reading the article,

1012:

Yes it does and no there's not is the short answer! Various suggestions have been made about Cite.php but so far, there has been no clear way ahead. Somebody with the MediaWiki knowledge really needs to dive in and just implement it one way or another. In fact, Cite.php works pretty well in shortish

2447:

The change isn't as simple as just removing the wikilink brackets from the template, though. First, we have to get consensus - either just here, and preferably also on the other cite templates where this is done the same way (such that we change all of the templates to the same formatting). Second,

2041:

The curly parameter isn't unacceptable, but in my opinion it is a completely unnecessary cluttering of the interface. Simpler is better. At the very least, the default display should be the correct typographic quotation marks and not the inferior typewriter ticks (since some pages will have a mix

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No, to invert sequence given above: the "ANSI standard style adapted by the National Library of Medicine" from which the "the Uniform Requirements style is based" according to the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors. I read & interpreted this as US Standards group came up with a

2765:

OK - I can see where you're getting the style that you want to use here; but bear in mind a few things: This is not a medical journal, and these pages are read by people who have never read a journal—medical or otherwise—in their lives. They are not going to understand what "1879;26(4):289" means;

2418:

I have reverted the template. However, I still believe the accessdate should not be automatically linked. No one actually writes the dates in ISO 8601 format, even though it says to in the instructions. Even if you are familiar with the format (probably less than 1% of the population), most people

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If there is still interest in a publisher field, you should make a copy of this template somewhere and implement it. Then once there is consensus to make the changes live, I will be glad to copy your new template to this location. I will temporarily resolve the editprotected tag, but feel free to

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I hope too that it will not be necessary to to have separate templates. But in case someone truly starts thinking about adding parameters like "volumebold=true" then it would be probably better to do separate templates. But don't ask me what the name of such a template would be ("cite journal bold

2705:

This really should not need any great debate surely - there is an internationally accepted standard for reference/citation style. If left to ourselves we will argue over "Vol" vs "Volume", "Issue" vs "Issue No" - the point of a citation style is that individual authors or journals' own styles are

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But this is neither a science journal nor a humanities journal, this is Knowledge, and our manual of style specifies a general citation format with quotation marks around article titles. This template should simply conform to that. (personally, I don't like the bolding, but the place to discuss

653:

Thanks; yes, guess I should have looked in here first (it's too easy to forget!). To amplify a bit on what gets used, I've got copies of articles from over 100 different science journals; while a few journals do use bold volume citation most don't, but I can't recall ever having seen quotes round

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field applies only to the first author. To be honest I'm a little ambivalent about wikilinking author names at all (I think it looks kind of ugly) but surely if we're going to do it, it should be possible for all authors. In many fields it's traditional to list authors alphabetically, so it's not

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While these may be departures from citation styles used in professional or scientific papers, Knowledge is neither, and should be more "user-friendly" to the average "reader off the street", so to speak. It also might encourage the use of the template by those who are unfamiliar with how to cite

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You can use plain old wikilinks right at the template call. The authorlink is only needed if the first author is given with first, last and the wiki-editor wants to wikilink that first author to the author's article on Knowledge. Subsequent authors (i.e. the "coauthors") can have the links right

1958:

What do I want to control with CSS? Let's say I want APA style citations but the default is MPA style. I can see that it could work by the template printing each style (each within its own span tag). Common.css then sets all but the MPA style to display:none. I override that with my monobook.css

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I thought about the lack of author being a problem before, but it didn't seem the most obvious possibility. It's a bit unusual for a journal article not to have an author, but this is from a section called "News and Notes" and there are no authors for these items. Anyway, thanks very much for

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Additionally, clearer parameter names would go a long way toward encouraging the use of the template by those who are unfamiliar with how to cite references correctly; if you look at the way it is now, some of the parameter labels may be misconstrued; in particular, "pages" could mean the total

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section has changed since I last read it (I think). It appears to allow both, but is clear enough that most articles on Knowledge use straight quotes rather than curly quotes. Indeed, any time I see an article with curly quotes, I immediately suspect it of being a copyright violation since the

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I'm unsure what to do with your proposal right now. Maybe I haven't understood it. This needs some further rumination from my side. It's not an easy question. Generally I'm reluctant to add additional parameters. A quick first sight problem I see is there are more and more occasions where such

2997:), and would like to see a way of having a translated title included in the template, for example in the form "Foreign title (trans. English title)", as well as the possibility of linking to both an english and foreign language version of the journal article. What do people here think? 2419:

still prefer not to use it because it is too ambiguous. Given that the vast majority of people who use Knowledge do not have their date preferences set, it seems to me that an unlinked "12 August, 2006" is more user friendly than a linked "2006-08-12" (regardless of where you're from).

1455:

At the end of the article title there is a period added by this template. This makes it look silly when there is a url link to the article embedded, or if there is an exclamation or interrogation point in the title. Could this be modified so that the users add this period if required?

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It sure has nothing to do with the unconventional date. I would rather say the missing author is unconventional. But per the spec this is a valid call pattern ("title is the only required parameter"). So the missing space looks like a plain bug (damn spaces, grumble...)

2038:. Putting literal quotation marks into the page twice and then hiding one set is just plain wrong. This will display broken in many places: search engine summaries & excerpts, republished Knowledge content, text-only web browsers, audio screen readers. 342:

even clear that the first author is the one with the most important contribution to the cite. Maybe the remaining authors should be included as first2, last2, authorlink2, and so on? In that case we could also make sure that the Oxford comma is always used. --

2663:{{cite journal | author last= Smith | author first= Joseph III | article title= Last Testimony of Sister Emma | journal name= The Saints' Herald | volume no.= 26 | issue no.= 4 | year= 1879 | month= October | day= 6 | begins on page no.= 289 }} 1342:

The square brackets is a standard convention to indicate that the english translation of the article's title (originally in Hungarian) is being given and the journal clearly indicates that it is a Hungarian journal (as the language of being Hungarian also

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Any reader then looking up a reference given in wikipedia may well find the article gives its formal citation details (either at the top or bottom of the paper) in this current style, and again will find that the paper gives its own references in this

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As such, when you implemented your change, you broke the date preferences functionality in all instances of this template where the accessdate was used correctly (i.e. as per the instructions at the top of this page). Please revert your change.

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I've copied the documentation back to the talk page. Please remove it from the template page. I don't want do ask an admin for every tweak to the docu. If you disagree, update the template page docu yourself accordingly whenever needed. Thanks.

803:. Thus it is not correct that no scientific publisher uses such conventions. However, as Michael Z says, we should simply folloe the MoS and changes of this nature should be established there, not by repeated insertion/removals here. - 287:

It would be nice if we could come up with something which would do this consistently, and the problem is that my ingrained programmer's habits say "sub-routine" which in this case rather implies "sub-template". Thoughts? HTH HAND

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nor are editors going to understand what the current template is asking for. My proposal is to make the template and the information it provides more friendly to a wider range of editors. One of Knowledge's strengths is that it

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Why does this template have quotation marks at all? This is not consistent with most references on Knowledge and I've never seen this used in any journal. Can we remove them? And get rid of the "curly" parameter in the process?

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Ok, I prefer to use curly quotes in articles I am doing a lot of work on (I think it just Looks Better), so how about an optional parameter, defaulting to off, for whether or not to use curly quotes? (As suggested by

2444:. Having said that, I agree with you that it shouldn't be wikilinked, so that people can use the date format of their preference (either the editor's preference, or the viewer's preference, depending on the latter). 1099:

takes over. I think that adding mere procedural tags does not result in any copyright claim and so the deletion of those few overlapping revisions does not violate any GFDL rights. Also per the TfD, I have archived

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the "Cite Journal" template already accepts "publisher=", however this section does not indicate that this is possible. I'd recommend adding it to the template here rather than fixing that other section. --

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goes to the great template scrapyard in the sky the same thing will happen, then I will gone down in history as the inventor of the original referencing template! (And boy, haven't we come on since then!)

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we need to arrange for a bot to go round every instance where 2006-09-01 is currently used in the cite templates around wikipedia, and get it wikilinked (Either by just adding the ], or by changing it to

451:*{{cite journal | last=Fowler | first=Martin | authorlink=Martin Fowler | title=Last Testimony of Sister Emma | journal=The Saints' Herald | volume=26 | year=1879 | month=October | pages=289 }} 3141:{{cite journal |title=Disney Releases 10 Titles on Laser Videodisc |author=John Doe |date=Summer 1982 |journal=VIDEODISC/VIDEOTEX |volume=2 |issue=3 |pages=175 |publisher=Meckler Publishing }} 2399:(i.e. with the addition of the square brackets), which then works with date formatting prefs fine. Of course, if you put "August 29, 2006" into that box, it won't work properly - but that's by design. 2829:

Fair points, although I would point out that the style is being based not on doctors wishes but "ANSI standard style adapted by the National Library of Medicine" i.e. it ultimately is following the

626:(which is a typical example of the great majority of both US and European science journal styles). Obs: no quotes round article titles in the references, and also journal volumes not in bold. - 320:, where all the relevant journal links are listed. (This has the added benefit of being able to use annoying journal title abbreviations without having to fully spell them out or explain them.) 986:... And the software orders the refs in the end if the sentences and paragraphs are moved around in the article and when this is being done, we don't need to move the text of the ref itself. 609:

used round titles. Take a look at the references list in any science journal. If they are felt necessary in humanities journals, then we need separate templates for the different styles. -

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editing the template. I wouldn't have reverted you on the template, if you had done so, so this issue could have been discussed first before changing that high use template. Furthermore

3094:{{cite journal |title=Disney Releases 10 Titles on Laser Videodisc |date=Summer 1982 |journal=VIDEODISC/VIDEOTEX |volume=2 |issue=3 |pages=175 |publisher=Meckler Publishing }} 316:

I've (sort of) included the journal URL by linking to the wikipedia journal entry, which itself has the journal links. For example use: journal=] This will link via redirect to the

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I'm trying to cite an article which has three seperate dates: date of acceptance, Epub (available online) date, and the date it will appear in print. Am I correct to use the Epub? --

2807:(I seem to recall the medical profession in particular being asked to use "plain language" for consumers rather than medical jargon; perhaps that should extend to references here.) 106:

Given that few papers are written by a single author anymore, can we please see an example for two authors? (Smith, Josef and Moroni, Angel, 1830) would be fine. I took a guess at

2618:{{cite journal | last=Smith | first=Joseph III | title=Last Testimony of Sister Emma | journal=The Saints' Herald | volume=26 | year=1879 | month=October | pages=289 }} 2386:, however, will. If this template did not automatically make a link out of the entire date, I could properly link it myself within the parameter so that it formatted correctly. 944:

style, you could theoretically have them all at the top, or maybe at the bottom, and just reference them like that. They do not strictly have to be inline is what I am saying.

895: 3238:. I want to add COinS tags for automated programs to retrieve reference data, and I want to separate ISSN, PMI, DOI into separate fields to make things like this easier. 1869:

That's fine; perhaps we should add some comments to the source code via noinclude and <! comments... Anyway, re: CSS, it's possible that you could do something like...

3074:

I'm not sure if it's because this is not a conventional full date, but there needs to be a space after the ")" (and maybe a period plus a space). The live example is at

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I apologize for having mentionend in my last revert "has been discussed". I was wrong. It was only that message of Splash on my talk page. I remembered that wrong. --

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default typing-into-the-edit box without any cleverness does not yield curly quotes. I think that templating the curly quotes will cause stylistic inconsistency in a

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Why is the access date wikilinked? It looks ugly to have random red links lying around. I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't imagine what it might be. --

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The largest electical engineering academic publisher in the world, the IEEE, uses quotations around titles. The largest in the UK, the IEE, bolds the volume title

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almost never given in references (except for papers awaiting publication,but here we have a web copy). What's the wiki article? I can give an extra look into it.

2810:

Regardless of which format is chosen, the template needs better labeling for the parameters that are being requested or better instructions on the template page.

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Any editor looking up journal articles/papers and following up on any of their given references, is likely to encounter citation details as currently formated.

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Thanks for the CSS explanations. I see what you want to do. My answer to the CSS thing is a strong no. That's exactly what we have been fighting against at

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and understand "Issue No." or "Vol.". Hence I rather suspect that the first example below is more comprehensible to us English-speakers than the second:

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Every instance I have seen, as well as every time I have used it, it's been in the ISO 8601 format. Other templates which use an accessdate tag, such as

2113: 2726:"The Uniform Requirements style is based largely on an ANSI standard style adapted by the National Library of Medicine (NLM) for its databases. (7) For 1372:- which (apart from the paper's title) already indicates it is "in Romanian" and does not need further repeatition of location being "Romania" surely ? 1856:

so. Just keep in mind that every additional parameter gives more work to maintain on the calls. But if all are happy with that curly param, then ok. --

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volume" would be a bit ugly). At the moment we have "cite journal MPF-Stemonitis", "cite journal Splash-Stemonitis" and "cite journal Mzajac" :-). --

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has been nominated for FA status, yet the first comment in place is about the wikitext. It is called a perfect example of what best practice isn't.

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I'm actually wondering whether we could make an argument that an actual meta-template would be useful here. We have many instances where we have

1955:

Well I've already said I am NOT happy with the curly param. It defeats the purpose of templatizing the data. I thought you objected to it too?

1910:

rather than the person writing the article. I imagine there's other ways to do it, though. This is the only one I can think of at the minute.

378:{{cite journal |last=Mech|first=David |title=Canadian Journal of Zoology|year=2002 |authorlink=http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/info/mech/mech.htm}} 2830: 860:

I hope I am not at the wronf place to ask. Should this or other templates be used to cite a newspaper, a daily (like NYT) or a weekly (like

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whatever Knowledge:Citation templates might claim, if one looks at the current template coding, this parameter is not currently included.

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Doh! I wonder if that's been added since I last looked or if I never saw it in the first place... Anyway, thanks for the quick reply ;)

1438:. I hope consensus is reached soon. Please count this as a vote for more uniform fields in the 'cite something' templates. Thank you. - 1177: 2721:

for manuscripts submitted to biomedical journals. International Committee of Medical Journal Editors. Med Educ. 1999; 33(1):66-78.

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parameter contains a URL, and I wonder whether we should add an extra parameter for this. We could also add an optional parameter

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Scratching my head: the code for the author part is the same here as in cite book. So what's more complicated there than here? --

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Not finding a good citation template for magazines which aren't journals (but are, IMHO, sufficiently reliable sources, such as

1811:, if you wish to revert those. I felt that an optional parameter was a valid compromise, but you both obviously feel different. 2734:

The BMJ's style though includes italics for the journal name instead of a fullstop before the year of publication etc details.

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I may be wrong, but shouldn't the accessdate be in the form 2006-08-31, which when run through the template code should become

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articles where there are not too many references but it does rather collapse under its own weight in more major undertakings. -

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I am not sure if it is a temporary thing. Or my browser is dodgy or what, but those two templates render identically for me.

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You may have noticed that I had reverted MPF's edit to the quotation marks as you requested it. Which was again reverted by

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Thanks, seems like a show-stopper. Client-selection of the citation is not going to be possible for the forseeable future.

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So in summary I would suggest there is no need any description to parameters within a citation, but neither any need for

1983:. See there why hiding stuff on the client side is a very bad idea. Brion Vibber has also advised against that. See also 3011:

Why is the author boldfaced? This is not a style I am familiar with, and I find it visually jarring and unnecessary. --

1924: 1825: 1712: 1527: 1274: 317: 2488:), I've been using cite journal for those. Comments, or is there any reason that this template should be reserved for 2775:. What it comes down to is which of the following is more understandable to a reader with no background in citations: 2506:

for magazines that are not scientific journals. Whether that is a proper use is debatable, though. --User:Ceyockey (

2011:

However I still don't want the template parameter. I don't care which sort of " we go for, but not a mixture, please.

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templates within the text. This makes for better reading and better referencing. Just thought people should know. --

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Also, a location is needed; this is often necessary for publications outside Canada, the USA, and Western Europe.

932:) which requires that references be inline in the text rather than collected together at the end of the article. - 2955: 1980: 1092: 1088: 90: 2994: 2833:(ANSI) guidelines. There are 3 important issues regarding the addition of descriptive terms to the parameters: 3242: 2902:

style that US Library of Medicine adapted and from which International Uniform Requirements style is based.

2710: 2599:(I'm splitting this out from the "Article title in quotation marks" section, they're two different issues.) 2441: 2437: 1124: 815: 2066:. The first ref breaks the line right after the caret. Is this from "cite journal" or from "cite.php"? -- 756:

Yes, I was just adding my response to an earlier comment, at the end of the thread. Sorry to be unclear.

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If possible, please not. I plead for using curly quotes then, if we can avoid that nasty "curly" param. --

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Can not this be included in the current "journal" parameter as per standard journal abbrevated names (per

1211: 982:{{cite Journal|First= John|Last=Smith|Title=... and so on}}} in the end after the <references/: --> 293: 171: 135: 2737:

Hence do we prefer: Smith, Joseph III. Last Testimony of Sister Emma. The Saints' Herald. 1879;26(4):289.

2307:. The fix is a trivial replacement of the first character by the second character in exactly one place. — 796: 2963: 2638: 2182: 1803:

Well, if you aren't happy with my changes, you may feel free to revert them. I also made the changes to

1675: 1422: 1329: 1182: 1096: 1026: 950: 475: 391: 1693:(code: {{cite journal|title=A test title|author=Mr. Test|journal=The Journal of Testology|curly=true}}) 254:, and we want to treat them basically in the same way; like this, in decreasing order of desirability: 3068:

Using "date=Summer 1982" which is the official date on the journal issue I'm referencing, I get this:

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I was thinking about this all along. I thought the most natural system would be something like this:

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There's now an extraneous space between the opening quote and the title if it doesn't have a URL.

2164:| title=Last Testimony of Sister Emma | journal=The Saints' Herald | volume=26 | year=1879 }} 3197: 2582: 2509: 2503: 2433: 2153:

inside the data for the coauthors parameter at the call. I'll try do give a (ficticuous) example:

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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Template_talk:Cite_journal&action=edit&section=new

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What do you think? I can convert the other reference templates in the series to also use this.

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I have finally gotten around to performing the history merge mandated by the long-ago TfD on

3071:(Summer 1982)"Disney Releases 10 Titles on Laser Videodisc". VIDEODISC/VIDEOTEX 2 (3): 175. 2371: 2048: 1659:(code: {{cite journal|title=A test title|author=Mr. Test|journal=The Journal of Testology}}) 1271: 955: 945: 762: 706: 593: 550: 544:

This format is much more commonly-used and would be easier to understand for most readers.

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number of pages in the publication or the page numbers for the article being referenced.

827:"the template emits quotes around the title" is not clear - could this say "the template 95: 3246: 3218: 3079: 2998: 2940:

Any reason why the publishing house/school/organization etc. is not an option to list?

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When I saw Cite.php I thought I didn't find what I need and kept looking for something

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Issue is actually included as a parameter. If I recall, it renders as (volume(issue))

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Could someone familiar with this template post the coding required for this change? --

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to cite journal. The new accessdate is compatible with the ISO accessdate variant of

1043:

I've added a new param "accessdate". I need this to migrate inclusions of deprecated

800: 512: 459: 365: 929: 3204: 3182: 3165: 3129: 3118: 3054: 3022: 2971: 2420: 2387: 2359: 2349: 2324: 2308: 2285: 2252: 2242: 2211: 2117: 2098: 2067: 1988: 1857: 1757: 1604: 1382: 1158: 1091:. Thus the templates' histories are merged up until just before the deprecation of 1074: 1029:

asking for some eyes from there. Hopefully something will be done at some point. --

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Sorry, no, it shouldn't be, at least not for science journals. Quotation marks are

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but only if you're happy about looking at extremely complicated code :-) HTH HAND —

619: 1474:. It would be nicer if there was a standard way to include this in the template. 1470:

Many of the cites I'm giving include the issue number as well as the volume. See

94: 2886: 2814: 2730:

citation formats, authors should consult National Library of Medicine web site."

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Because it's the only way user preferences on date display can be made to work.

2045: 1590: 1268: 1264: 1109: 1014: 933: 804: 759: 703: 590: 574:

encloses the chapter in quotation marks too. So this sounds reasonable to me. --

547: 357: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

2549: 2012: 1960: 1936: 1843: 1780: 1132: 1030: 1003: 865: 2920:

are other international standards in this area (but I haven't looked).... --

1434:

Hi, CMummert. For now I removed the publisher field in the usage sections of

795:

uses quotes around the title. You can look in any of their publications, but

2784: 2673: 2379: 1321: 1300: 1367: 1350: 2980:

Done! Thanks for doing this; I'm in the process of working on this too.

2882:

standard has been created by the "American National Standards Institute"?

2063: 782: 728: 655: 627: 610: 508: 361: 3190:

Addendum: I've omitted the period after the date if there is no author (

3150:

John Doe (Summer 1982). "Disney Releases 10 Titles on Laser Videodisc".

2993:

I keep coming across journal entries in foreign languages (e.g. most of

2595:

Publication volume number in bold / additional data / descriptive labels

668:

have separate templates for each, but I hope that won't be necessary. --

3138:

Yeah funny, if I add an author (just for testing), then it looks fine:

1471: 321: 2548:" as well, since we can't rely on a journal having its own article. -- 781:

I've put in a proposal at the MOS to get rid of those awful quotes. -

2740:

or instead BMJ's : Smith, Joseph III. Last Testimony of Sister Emma.

2436:, also use that format. I would also point to comments about this at 2108:

New template proposed: distinguishing news vs. abstract vs. full text

1293: 3049:. But you could have done that yourself. Interwikis can be added on 636:

Sorry, I have already reverted you. Please post messages like these

3036:

please add the link to italian version it:Template:Cite journal --

1959:

which sets MPA style back to none and APA style to display:normal.

927:

It is not the templates' fault. It is the fault of the <ref: -->

700:

these issues is the MOS, and not by revert-warring this template)

2718: 2112:

We're discussing what a more integrated template could look like:

1106:

Template talk:Cite journal/Template:Journal reference talk archive

991: 2788: 2677: 2485: 2452: 2383: 2114:

Knowledge talk:WikiProject Unreferenced GA#New template proposed

906: 902: 356:

When I add the authorlink option, the last name disappears. See

2773:

that has been set for an entirely different communication media

2367:

Actually, the way it is currently implemented in this template

1381:

The template builder now fills in the "language" parameter. --

162: 96: 25: 2034:

is what's displayed without CSS—CSS is meant only to control

374:

Sorry for being late. I have finally looked at that. You did:

447:

should receive the name of a wikipedia article. For example:

3164:

So definitely a bug. I will have a look. Maybe tomorrow. --

2625:

Smith, Joseph III (1879). "Last Testimony of Sister Emma".

2160:{{cite journal | last=Fowler | first=Martin | coauthors= 439:

The problem here is that you put an external link into the

2378:

will not format according to date formatting preferences;

1842:

Anyone else like the "CSS controls citation style" idea?

2989:

Foreign language journal titles - translation parameter?

2169:

Fowler, Martin (1879). "Last Testimony of Sister Emma".

2097:

Did you read the discussions above on this talk page? --

1307:

and we also make use of the "language" parameter gives:

969:

What would be nice to have in or in addition to cite.php

529:, with quotation marks surrounding the article title? 3191: 3175: 3050: 3046: 2967: 2132: 1579:

large number of articles. To that end, I have reverted

842: 641: 561: 533:

Brandybuck, Meriadoc (1955). "Herb lore of the Shire".

2668:→ Smith, Joseph III, "Last Testimony of Sister Emma". 2299:

The closing curly quote is wrong. At the moment it is

2455:). Third, we make the change, and set the bot going. 1027:

Talk:Cite/Cite.php#discussion_at_en:talk:Cite_journal

527:

Knowledge:Cite sources/example style#Journal articles

209:

where we have an article (along the lines of the new

2779:

Smith, Joseph III, "Last Testimony of Sister Emma".

3053:, which is not protected (scroll to the bottom). -- 1157:? That would ease finding of original publication. 1149:Shouldn't citation have a possibility to include a 896:

Knowledge:Featured article candidates/AIDS/archive1

2799:Smith, Joseph III. Last Testimony of Sister Emma. 386:Mech, David (2002). "Canadian Journal of Zoology". 197:? I'm coming across quite a few places where the 3103:"Disney Releases 10 Titles on Laser Videodisc". 2962:for cite journal. Please replace the content of 1416:add another one when the new template is ready. 166:See my ramblings about "sub-templates" below. — 909:extensively uses this template along with the 1222:Sure ain't. Very Bad for older publications 8: 1334:: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( 2442:Template_talk:Cite_news#Date_vs._accessdate 1877:{{{title}}}<span class="db-Y3VybHk": --> 1357:Microbiologia, parazitologia, epidemiologia 535:Journal of the Royal Institute of Chemistry 3111:(3). Meckler Publishing: 175. Summer 1982. 1535:(I've echoed this to your talk page. :-)) 2706:converted into some standardised system: 1309:Illés J, Jávor A, Szíjártó E (2002). "". 462:(1879). "Last Testimony of Sister Emma". 110:, but I'm not to happy with the result.-- 3230:COinS tags for machine-readable metadata 1167:Not a bad idea for an optional field. -- 525:Why does this not follow the example at 2950:Edit request: template doc page pattern 2438:Template_talk:Cite_news#link_accessdate 1466:Request for additional parameter: Issue 497:Sorry again for answering that late. -- 2724:If you follow that link you will find 2647: 2636: 2195: 2191: 2180: 1684: 1673: 1327: 484: 473: 425: 424: 412: 400: 389: 152:Oops. Gracefool! WTF! I've seen it. -- 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3234:I'd like to change this template and 2970:(please copy it verbatim). Thanks. -- 2831:American National Standards Institute 507:Thanks. Better late than never. :-) 7: 1879:<span class="db-c3RyYWlnaHQ": --> 1875:<span class="db-c3RyYWlnaHQ": --> 943:Using the <ref name="example: --> 191:Should we add an optional parameter 2864:2001 όγκος 2, ζήτημα 5, σελίδες 57 2771:than following some other standard 1985:Knowledge:Don't use hiddenStructure 3217:tracking down the bug so quickly. 24: 1083:History merge finally carried out 2783:, Vol. 26, Issue No. 4, p. 289, 2672:, Vol. 26, Issue No. 4, p. 289, 2116:. Please comment if you wish. - 1886:And then, in your monobook.css: 1873:<span class="db-Y3VybHk": --> 521:Article title in quotation marks 161: 29: 3193:). Which is now the same as in 2236:Documentation back on talk page 1102:Template talk:Journal reference 587:Thank you: that looks better. 3089:Walt_Disney_Home_Entertainment 3076:Walt_Disney_Home_Entertainment 3064:Date for quarterly publication 2984:22:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC) 2975:22:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC) 2848:Helanos A (2001). " (Greek)". 1722:Thanks, see your talk page ;) 1565:Splash once wrote on my talk: 1305:Diberri's template filler tool 850:13:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC) 836:13:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC) 225:parameter would over-ride the 1: 3158:(3). Meckler Publishing: 175. 2945:06:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC) 2907:02:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC) 2896:21:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC) 2869:01:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC) 2824:07:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC) 2760:12:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC) 2697:17:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC) 2460:06:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC) 2424:05:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC) 2062:Please check out the refs in 1201:22:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC) 1186:21:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC) 369:01:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC) 347:19:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC) 325:20:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC) 308:09:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC) 297:14:42, 16 February 2006 (UTC) 175:15:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC) 157:15:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC) 148:15:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC) 139:14:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC) 115:20:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC) 3250:06:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC) 3222:04:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC) 3208:00:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC) 3186:00:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC) 3169:00:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC) 3133:00:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC) 3122:23:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC) 3083:15:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC) 3058:12:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC) 3041:10:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC) 3026:16:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 3016:15:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2982:JesseW, the juggling janitor 2925:15:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 1570:Well, it turns out that the 1311:Acta pharmaceutica Hungarica 1178:Knowledge:Citation templates 831:quotes around the title"? -- 318:Journal of Organic Chemistry 3002:10:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC) 2553:20:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC) 2532:19:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC) 2497:18:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC) 2492:scientific publications? -- 2414:20:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC) 2404:20:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC) 2391:18:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC) 2372:date formatting preferences 1646:to the template. Examples: 1644:{{#if: {{{curly|}}}|“/”|"}} 443:. This is not as intended. 3265: 2715:advice stylebook refernces 2589:00:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 2570:00:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 2522:Wikilink the journal name? 2516:00:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 2363:18:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC) 2353:13:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC) 2142:Is this somehow possible? 2019:15:09, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1992:14:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1967:14:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1943:14:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1930:14:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1861:14:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1850:13:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1831:12:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1787:12:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1761:11:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1742:10:14, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1718:10:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1666:Mr. Test. "A test title". 1653:Mr. Test. "A test title". 1638:10:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1608:10:00, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1553:00:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1533:00:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1489:00:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 1461:20:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 1400:22:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC) 1391:18:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC) 1377:11:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC) 1257:06:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC) 1227:22:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1172:20:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 1162:14:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC) 1139:13:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC) 1115:00:11, 14 April 2006 (UTC) 1093:Template:Journal reference 1089:Template:Journal reference 1034:02:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC) 1020:01:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC) 1007:01:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC) 961:23:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC) 939:01:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC) 922:00:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC) 889:09:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC) 874:You might want to look at 869:05:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC) 823:09:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC) 624:American Journal of Botany 18:Template talk:Cite journal 3051:Template:Cite journal/doc 2960:template doc page pattern 2956:template:cite journal/doc 2474:Use for magazine articles 2339:01:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC) 2329:00:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC) 2317:22:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC) 2289:15:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC) 2278:14:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC) 1981:Knowledge:hiddenStructure 1596:23:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC) 1443:23:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC) 1346:Similarly we can mark up 1078:22:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC) 1025:Thanks! I left a note at 810:18:17, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 786:18:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 736:18:50, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 687:12:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 673:12:04, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 659:11:07, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 649:10:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 631:10:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 614:10:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 579:15:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC) 516:00:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 502:16:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC) 2260:13:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC) 2246:11:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC) 2228:01:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC) 2215:09:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC) 2147:04:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC) 2138:authorlink for coauthors 2130:19:53, 7 July 2006 (UTC) 2102:12:33, 2 July 2006 (UTC) 2092:11:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC) 1935:the whole encyclopedia. 1668:The Journal of Testology 1655:The Journal of Testology 1153:of a journal, just like 102:Example with two authors 2711:British Medical Journal 2071:13:33, 4 May 2006 (UTC) 1494:According to the code: 1427:19:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1120:Beautiful. I hope when 797:here is an IEEE example 240:together with optional 3117:I'm having a look. -- 2611:references correctly. 1572:WP:MOS#Quotation marks 1267:08:32, 30 April 2007 ( 816:Template:Cite journal2 801:here is an IEE example 411:Cite journal requires 358:Dog_society#References 3078:. Can this be fixed? 2964:template:cite journal 2878:Just to clarify, the 2860:Helanos A " (Greek)" 1243:comment was added by 1097:Template:Cite journal 1048:journal web reference 977:<ref name=ABC: --> 42:of past discussions. 2728:samples of reference 2719:Uniform requirements 1498:}}{{#if:{{{issue|}}} 1355:Sefer M (1971). "". 1303:, if passed through 1039:New accessdate param 841:Sure. Just edit the 352:authorlink is broken 108:Otter theorem prover 2614:The way it is now: 2266:Date - e-pub or pub 2058:Minor linebreak bug 1809:Template:Cite paper 3152:VIDEODISC/VIDEOTEX 3105:VIDEODISC/VIDEOTEX 2801:The Saints' Herald 2781:The Saints' Herald 2742:The Saints' Herald 2670:The Saints' Herald 2646:Unknown parameter 2627:The Saints' Herald 2537:Encourage use of " 2504:Template:Cite news 2502:Often, I will use 2484:on the subject of 2434:Template:Cite news 2223:So I see. Thanks! 2190:Unknown parameter 2171:The Saints' Herald 2052:2006-07-02 16:44 Z 1892:visibilty: hidden; 1805:Template:Cite news 1683:Unknown parameter 1155:Template:Cite book 766:2006-03-05 18:55 Z 710:2006-03-05 18:12 Z 597:2006-03-04 15:54 Z 554:2006-03-04 15:38 Z 483:Unknown parameter 464:The Saints' Herald 2968:exactly this code 2659:What I propose: 2586: 2579:--User:Ceyockey ( 2513: 2430:Template:Cite web 2344:WL of access date 2089: 2053: 1928: 1901:visbility: block; 1829: 1740: 1716: 1636: 1594: 1551: 1531: 1487: 1425: 1260: 1113: 1018: 937: 862:The Village Voice 808: 767: 711: 642:your edit summary 622:(pdf file), from 598: 564:in the template. 560:Good question. I 555: 423:External link in 333:linking coauthors 87: 86: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3256: 3202: 3196: 3174:Think I got it: 3159: 3112: 2891: 2885: 2857: 2819: 2813: 2755:volume numbers. 2692: 2686: 2655: 2649: 2644: 2642: 2634: 2580: 2564: 2547: 2546: 2507: 2306: 2303:, but should be 2302: 2295:Fix curly quotes 2203: 2197: 2193: 2188: 2186: 2178: 2163: 2087: 2051: 1914: 1815: 1779:and break that. 1731: 1723: 1702: 1692: 1686: 1681: 1679: 1671: 1658: 1645: 1627: 1619: 1593: 1588: 1582: 1539: 1517: 1504: 1499: 1475: 1421: 1395:Thanks Diberri. 1371: 1339: 1333: 1325: 1313:(in Hungarian). 1238: 1216: 1210: 1129: 1123: 1112: 1072: 1066: 1062: 1056: 1052: 1046: 1017: 981:<ref ABC: --> 978:in the text flow 958: 953: 948: 936: 883: 877: 807: 765: 709: 596: 573: 567: 553: 492: 486: 481: 479: 471: 434: 428: 427: 420: 414: 408: 402: 397: 395: 387: 337:I note that the 283: 278: 267: 218: 212: 165: 129: 123: 97: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3264: 3263: 3259: 3258: 3257: 3255: 3254: 3253: 3232: 3200: 3194: 3177:. I would say: 3149: 3142: 3102: 3095: 3066: 3034: 3009: 3007:Boldface author 2995:Einstein's work 2991: 2952: 2938: 2887: 2883: 2847: 2815: 2811: 2803:1879;26(4):289. 2744:1879;26(4):289. 2688: 2684: 2645: 2635: 2624: 2597: 2562: 2540: 2538: 2524: 2476: 2376:August 31, 2006 2346: 2315: 2304: 2300: 2297: 2268: 2238: 2189: 2179: 2168: 2161: 2140: 2110: 2078: 2076:Quotation marks 2060: 1881: 1880:"</span: --> 1878:”</span: --> 1876:"</span: --> 1874:“</span: --> 1739: 1729: 1682: 1672: 1665: 1652: 1650:(without curly) 1643: 1635: 1625: 1616:User:Bookofjude 1586: 1580: 1563: 1550: 1503:| ({{{issue}}}) 1502: 1497: 1486: 1468: 1453: 1359:(in Romanian). 1354: 1326: 1308: 1239:—The preceding 1214: 1208: 1147: 1127: 1121: 1085: 1070: 1064: 1060: 1054: 1050: 1044: 1041: 998: 997: 971: 956: 951: 946: 930:m:Cite/Cite.php 901:The article on 899: 881: 875: 858: 571: 565: 523: 482: 472: 458: 452: 422: 410: 398: 388: 385: 379: 354: 335: 281: 277: 265: 216: 210: 189: 127: 121: 120:Take a look at 104: 99: 98: 93: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3262: 3260: 3231: 3228: 3227: 3226: 3225: 3224: 3211: 3210: 3188: 3162: 3161: 3160: 3145: 3140: 3136: 3135: 3115: 3114: 3113: 3098: 3093: 3065: 3062: 3061: 3060: 3033: 3030: 3029: 3028: 3008: 3005: 2990: 2987: 2986: 2985: 2954:I've prepared 2951: 2948: 2937: 2936:Publishing org 2934: 2932: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2927: 2917:Andy Tanenbaum 2910: 2909: 2876: 2875: 2874: 2873: 2872: 2871: 2858: 2841: 2837: 2805: 2804: 2797: 2796: 2795: 2763: 2762: 2749: 2748: 2747: 2746: 2745: 2738: 2732: 2722: 2717:points to Ref: 2701: 2682: 2681: 2665: 2664: 2657: 2656: 2620: 2619: 2596: 2593: 2592: 2591: 2575: 2574: 2573: 2572: 2563:issn=0031-9007 2556: 2555: 2527:here, though. 2523: 2520: 2519: 2518: 2494:EngineerScotty 2481:Wine Spectator 2475: 2472: 2471: 2470: 2469: 2468: 2467: 2466: 2465: 2464: 2463: 2462: 2445: 2406: 2374:from working. 2345: 2342: 2332: 2331: 2311: 2296: 2293: 2292: 2291: 2267: 2264: 2263: 2262: 2237: 2234: 2233: 2232: 2231: 2230: 2218: 2217: 2207: 2206: 2205: 2204: 2165: 2155: 2154: 2139: 2136: 2109: 2106: 2105: 2104: 2077: 2074: 2059: 2056: 2028: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2024: 2023: 2022: 2021: 2009: 1999: 1998: 1997: 1996: 1995: 1994: 1972: 1971: 1970: 1969: 1956: 1950: 1949: 1948: 1947: 1946: 1945: 1907: 1906: 1905: 1902: 1899: 1896: 1893: 1890: 1884: 1883: 1882: 1872: 1864: 1863: 1840: 1839: 1838: 1837: 1836: 1835: 1834: 1833: 1794: 1793: 1792: 1791: 1790: 1789: 1776: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1765: 1764: 1763: 1749: 1748: 1747: 1746: 1745: 1744: 1733: 1696: 1695: 1694: 1660: 1629: 1601: 1600: 1562: 1559: 1558: 1557: 1556: 1555: 1544: 1507: 1506: 1505: 1500: 1480: 1467: 1464: 1452: 1449: 1448: 1447: 1446: 1445: 1413: 1412: 1411: 1410: 1409: 1408: 1407: 1406: 1405: 1404: 1403: 1402: 1344: 1340: 1283: 1282: 1281: 1280: 1279: 1278: 1232: 1231: 1230: 1229: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1191: 1190: 1189: 1188: 1146: 1143: 1142: 1141: 1125:Book reference 1084: 1081: 1040: 1037: 1023: 1022: 995: 994: 988: 987: 984: 979: 970: 967: 966: 965: 964: 963: 898: 893: 892: 891: 857: 854: 853: 852: 789: 788: 778: 777: 776: 775: 774: 773: 772: 771: 770: 769: 745: 744: 743: 742: 741: 740: 739: 738: 718: 717: 716: 715: 714: 713: 692: 691: 690: 689: 676: 675: 664: 663: 662: 661: 603: 602: 601: 600: 582: 581: 542: 541: 522: 519: 505: 504: 495: 494: 493: 460:Fowler, Martin 450: 449: 448: 436: 435: 383: 377: 376: 375: 353: 350: 334: 331: 330: 329: 328: 327: 311: 310: 285: 284: 279: 268: 188: 185: 184: 183: 182: 181: 180: 179: 178: 177: 112:Stephan Schulz 103: 100: 91: 89: 88: 85: 84: 79: 74: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3261: 3252: 3251: 3248: 3244: 3239: 3237: 3229: 3223: 3220: 3215: 3214: 3213: 3212: 3209: 3206: 3199: 3192: 3189: 3187: 3184: 3180: 3176: 3173: 3172: 3171: 3170: 3167: 3157: 3153: 3148: 3147: 3146: 3139: 3134: 3131: 3126: 3125: 3124: 3123: 3120: 3110: 3106: 3101: 3100: 3099: 3092: 3090: 3085: 3084: 3081: 3077: 3072: 3069: 3063: 3059: 3056: 3052: 3048: 3045: 3044: 3043: 3042: 3039: 3031: 3027: 3024: 3020: 3019: 3018: 3017: 3014: 3006: 3004: 3003: 3000: 2996: 2988: 2983: 2979: 2978: 2977: 2976: 2973: 2969: 2965: 2961: 2958:to apply the 2957: 2949: 2947: 2946: 2943: 2935: 2933: 2926: 2923: 2918: 2914: 2913: 2912: 2911: 2908: 2905: 2900: 2899: 2898: 2897: 2894: 2892: 2890: 2881: 2880:international 2870: 2867: 2863: 2859: 2855: 2851: 2846: 2845: 2842: 2838: 2835: 2834: 2832: 2828: 2827: 2826: 2825: 2822: 2820: 2818: 2808: 2802: 2798: 2793: 2792: 2790: 2786: 2782: 2778: 2777: 2776: 2774: 2769: 2761: 2758: 2754: 2750: 2743: 2739: 2736: 2735: 2733: 2731: 2729: 2723: 2720: 2716: 2712: 2708: 2707: 2704: 2703: 2702: 2699: 2698: 2695: 2693: 2691: 2679: 2675: 2671: 2667: 2666: 2662: 2661: 2660: 2653: 2640: 2632: 2628: 2622: 2621: 2617: 2616: 2615: 2612: 2608: 2604: 2600: 2594: 2590: 2585: 2584: 2577: 2576: 2571: 2568: 2560: 2559: 2558: 2557: 2554: 2551: 2544: 2536: 2535: 2534: 2533: 2530: 2521: 2517: 2512: 2511: 2505: 2501: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2495: 2491: 2490:peer reviewed 2487: 2483: 2482: 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