1415:
unintentionally) have resolved talkpage issues and thus would warrant removing templates from the talkpage (they may not even think it is "ok" to remove a talkpage template). I have less of an issue with date categories going forward (esp. if the date is applied by a bot like with most dated maintenance templates), but it seems of little benefit to create today a category for a month over 15 years ago that may not even apply to the article any longer. Also a spot check I performed last week seemed to indicate that the dates are applied inconsistently: the documentation implies that the date should be the date that the tag was applied, but currently the parameter seems to be used in a haphazard mix of the date the problematic edit was made to the article, the date of the external problematic source, or other dates. This makes the old dating categories even less useful for this template. Hope this helps.
527:
long time - we're effectively hoping that someone comes across something that solves the issue one way or another. Often times people have already looked but that doesn't mind that some thing will never be found and so the tag should stay indefinitely unless, for example, there's been a masive rewrite which has removed the section with concerns. "Maintance templates are just not signed" sounds very much like a I just don't like it arguement from you. Standardisation is great as long as it doesn't make life more awkward for other editors. I'd like to see more input on this so am now waiting to see if other copyright people pop in.
638:
already effectively been reverted when you removed it entirely. So as far as I could see at the time of my reversion I reverted two substantive changes - one the dates, the other the person - and one technical change (the url stuff). I was aware of some collateral damage but thought it was minor enough (especially given that it had only just been added) that it wasn't worth worrying about why we discussed changed to the template - I never expected my revert to be the final change and the url change could have been added back in once we'd agreed on other changes.
478:
work in this area before changing. Yes standardisation of templates is a good thing but in doing so you have to make sure that they still do what the people who use them want. I don't doubt your expertise in this area but you have (as far as I can see) little or no expertise in copyrigth investigation so you need to discuss your changes. Yes the multiple to edits to pages is my larger problem but I am unhappy with both. And what is SmackBot? As far as I can see the edits were made by Rich using AWB.
411:
of what, let alone what investigation has been done) to a fairly common usage where the url is of the suspected source, to part of a section that outlines comprehensively one some or all of the reason for the suspicion, the suspected source, the investigation carried out. For that reason I would suggest a more comprehensive workflow is required than simply tagging a talk page with "Fred thinks that this version of the article may have been a copyvio".
351:"backlog" That doesn't apply in this case." Why shouldn't a suspected copyvio need dealing with? And therefore have a backlog? If an article was tagged a few years ago, and nobody came up with anything, why not remove the tag, using the argument that if there indeed were a copyvio, it would have been noticed after a year or two? And I think other arguments can be brought forward in favor of dating maintenance templates, of which almost 100 are dated.
378:
these should be treated the same way as a wikiproject tag and kept at the top of the talk page so as they're obvious, don't get archived etc. I also query the usefulness of a date tag - these tags are placed when someone has investigated and can't find a source but still has reasons for suspecting a copyvio. Dated tags suggest that it's something that needs dealing with and that there is a "backlog" That doesn't apply in this case.
1465:: don't see how any month in 2004 or 2005 could possibly be correct, since this template was only created in February 2006. So in the next couple of days I will go through the old ones and try fixing their dates to be the date the template was added; once I do so I will remove the code I added and you will be back in business. I appreciate your continuing effort to clear the old maintenance cats (copyvio and otherwise). Best,
1144:, I am sorry not to have noticed that you agree to dating. That and the other edits, which were of technical nature, are the most important things for me here. As to signing, I already agreed with Moonriddengirl that it can stay, since such seems to be consensus. I see no real gain from splitting between serious and non-serious editors and tags, and consider it quite needless, but frankly don't care too much about that.
25:] suspects that this article (specifically ) is a copyright violation, but without a source this can not be definitively determined. If this article can be shown to be a copyright infringement, please list the article on Knowledge (XXG):Copyright problems. If you are certain that the article is not a copyright violation, you should give evidence below. Please do not remove this tag without discussion.
316:
addition, it seems to me that your are more against the edits of SmackBot to talkpages, than against the changes in the template themselves. In this regard I actually agree with you, that the tag should remain on top of the article page, and no section should be created. But that was no reason to indiscriminately revert all changes to the template.
248:
204:
1024:. 1. There are no "copyright people" and "template people" on Knowledge (XXG). All editors can make any edit anywhere they like. 2. Why complicate things with two templates? 3. Consensus seems to be that all but you are in favor having dates. 4. This looks again like you trying to establish a corner of Knowledge (XXG) that you can
1045:
I'm aware of that, I was merely trying to suggest that when developing them we should ensure we have input from people who most use them (so they're useful) and those who regularly work with such templates (so they're as close to standard as possible) - I wasn't meaning it to be exclusive or anything
511:
is no argument. SmackBot is a bot operated by Rich who would continue that type of edit. You may work in the area of copyvio's, and we work in the area of maintenance templates, and they are just not signed. In addition, if you don't think a date is needed, why do you keep the signing, which also add
492:
Well I still think having the person who placed the tag is useful. There may be better ways of doing it but removing it entirely is something I'd be unhappy with. Likewise I don't like the addition of the date to the template as I think it's entirely appropriate that these stay around a long time.
276:
I've reverted these changes. As far as I can see they've not been discussed with a single editor actually active in copyright investigation and I think they are not necessary good changes. The nature of copyright, especially in this instance where an editor suspects there may be a problem, means a
716:
You raise some interesting points about the "backlog" type nature. I suspect this is because people use it in two different ways. People active in copyright use it when they've searched, can't find a source but it still appears a copyvio whereas others may well use it when they suspect a copyvio
596:
I'm not unwilling to have people work on them - indeed the help would be much appreciated. My concern is over having people that don't understand copyright feeling lime they should work on them to help get rid of a perceived backlog, or similarly someone removing such a tag because they see it was
526:
I think the signing is for the who rather than the when and so the time is a side effect. My concern with the dated categories is that I can easily see someone working on the "backlog" and inappropriately emptying categories. As I state there is no reason that these tags shouldn't be around for a
410:
I have sympathy with the idea of keeping a record of copyvio investigations, as is indicated inthe aboce discussion, however the scope of this tag does not allow that. The actual use of the tag is quite varied, from simply a lone tag, which really says nothing (not why a cpoyvio was suspected, nor
808:
Hi. :) It matters to me who places the tag, because it gives me a clue whether the tag placer is likely to have done his homework and checked carefully for matches before placing it or simply slapped the tag up there because of red flags without checking. I have found the tag used on articles when
477:
and the complete lack of discussion with people working in the area. Yes a minor change (the url bit) got caught up in that but as that was relatively minor I didn't re-insert it. I've reverted back to the stable version (with the inconsequential url change kept). Please discuss with people who
820:
support adding a date parameter, although I think that the url to the suspected version should remain. It certainly facilitates investigation to be able to click on that link. :) Sorting these by date to prioritize cleanup seems like a good idea. Can the date be automated in any way? I don't know
472:
Firstly I'm happy to keep discussion here - you'll notice I posted to Rick's talk before I noticed there were changes here as well. I'd hope the reason I don't think we need dated templates is obvious from the discussion I've copied above. As far as I can see there were two major changes to the
350:
As to your argument, on Rich's talkpage, that "I also query the usefulness of a date tag - these tags are placed when someone has investigated and can't find a source but still has reasons for suspecting a copyvio. Dated tags suggest that it's something that needs dealing with and that there is a
330:
As to your argument, that the issue might be subjective. I'd say that Rich's arguments that a user might be no longer active on
Knowledge (XXG) or an IP user, are heavy arguments. In addition, I think that if a page reeks of copyvio, any discerning editor will be able to notice that, and that the
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Debrasser - Apology accepted. My reason for suggesting two different uses (be they different templates or the same one with a flag) is that if someone is suggesting it may be a copyvio but not having searched for it we really should ensure such a search is done. I can understand why some users
712:
We've left actual copyvios in history for a long time and before RevDel it was normal to revert and leave them there so I don't think there's a particular problem in the history (I believe we have had legal advice that a copyright version in the history isn't a problem although I'll leave it for
637:
Well it sits badly to me that people come along and substantively change templates, especially in a specialist area like this, without any discussion with the people that use them. No I do not have a problem with no parameter issue. The one to do with the person tagging I missed because it had
377:
Can I ask where consensus for any of these edits was obtained? I'm active in copyright work and have not seen these changes discussed anywhere and only noticed them when lots of your edits appeared on my watchlist. I'm particularly unhappy about the addition of a header above the tag. I think
1049:
It seems clear to me, from the above, that the current template is being used in two different ways. One where someone suspects a copyright issue but hasn't tried finding the source (as in the example by Rich
Farnborough) and the other where someone's made good faith attempts to find a source,
856:
Nobody wants to remove the url. The issues are the date and the signature. I raised the signature issue above and the change was made when another editor agreed with it, especially since it is very out-of-the-ordinary. The date I added as part of standarisation, and I still think that should be
446:
Your unhappiness was no reason to revert all of the changes to the template, including category handling and parameters. Your problem seems to be with SmackBots edits rather than with the changes to the template. In this regard I actually agree with you, that the tag should remain on top of the
769:
on an article and didn't cite a source and I couldn't find it. The tag serves as a record and maybe another editor will have a suspicion later and notice the tag. Until now, I was unaware of user's placing it based off their own suspicions. In my uses, citing the user who placed it is good for
622:
The thing is you reverted some four different things in one edit, and that sits badly with me. Part of them were outright technical improvements, and should never have been reverted. This includes, by the way, the change of the text if no parameters are used, to which surely one cannot object.
335:
copyvio's, without hard proof, I do not think it would be so harmful if the tag were later removed by another editor. And in addition, if an editor placed a tag and afterwards doesn't participate in discussion for such a long time that it becomes hard to find record of who placed the tag, then
1429:
You've made several convincing points there, but the situation you've created is a bizarre inconsistency; articles whose date was originally in 2004 or 2005 get categorized as undated, whereas more recently-created entries get categorized as dated (all of the old dated categories were created
315:
Why did you reverse category handling also? And parameter handling? This is only one of the many maintenance templates, in which both of us are experts, and the changes match those. Both in the area of category handling, as well as the removal of this unheard of signing inside a template. In
1414:
thanks for the question and the ping. According to the documentation, this is a talkpage maintenance template, and talkpage maintenance templates are not normally dated, the main reason being that when the article is edited, editors rarely look to see whether their edits (intentionally or
1004:
As a bit of an aside, and a much longer term goal, I think we may well need a general copyright template for use on talkpages which lists what's happened to the article in copyright terms (e.g. concerns, investigations, reversions, revdels etc) but that seems like an even longer term goal.
570:
suggests we leave it at the stable version, by which I mean the version before you two changed it (and which had been stable for six months) while it is discussed. You boldly changed it, I reverted it, now we discuss. You shouldn't be continuously changing it back to versions you prefer.
879:
fashion, there is now disagreement, and we need to iron out consensus. :) I would like to retain the username, as explained. Is there a reason to remove it, beyond its being out-of-the-ordinary? It's been part of the template, evidently uncontroversially, since it was created in 2006.
1446:
to continue my work by posting newer years and clear the backlog, as has been happening with several other dated categories there. (And I do agree that the dating should ideally be consistently the date the template was added but an inconsistent dating is better than none at all).
39:
The instructions are wrong. You need to type 2= before the url because the equals sign in the url screws it up. Also it double links the sig--you should just type your username. I've left this unsubsted so you can click "edit this page" to see what I've done and that it
88:
in order to allow for the possibility that parameter 2 is empty. I hope this will get people to be more bold in using this tag. (If this will make more work for those who screen articles that are thus tagged, a compromise might be to leave the instructions unchanged.)
1028:. 5. Didn't you say that we should wait for input from other editors? Now that you see people disagree with you, and Moonriddengirl's attempt to reach consensus might be successful, only two hours later, you yourself come with a new proposal. That is not serious.
958:
We deprecate this template and create two new templates (or two versions of one template), one for use by anyone with any concern, one for use after a proper investigation (i.e. searching etc) where concerns still remain (and probably only for use by the normal
182:
In the mean time, till somebody will reply to this post, I'll change the code to use "It is suspected" in case the template was used without signing. And to remove the words "specifically this version", with the link to a specific version, if none is specified.
1361:
I added a talk parameter, to the template and the documentation. Regarding a reason parameter: the text of this template is rather detailed. I am not sure there is need for a reason parameter. What text would you propose to replace by the reason parameter?
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communication/networking purposes. Sometimes I have to ask the editor who placed the tag what source they saw the text in. Date and version IDs are important in comparing a source and article version. With that, I have never used the signature portion just
1219:
might not want to do the searching themselves (personal experience means I know how difficult it can be) but, so as to limit the possibility of legal problems, it really does need doing. At the moment there is no easy way for a user to flag this up as
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like a copyright violation w/o probable cause (i.e. source), I think that is copyright paranoia. Some people are good writers on
Knowledge (XXG), some people write their own articles and some are so enthusiastic it comes off like a promotional
545:. And now that I think about it, so does your reverting all changes. And please note that you haven't countered even one of my many arguments why I disagree with you and think that it does not matter who placed the tag.
661:
As for the "backlog" mentality there are problems with it. We see this with speedy deletion sometimes, in the desire to achieve an empty CSD category people sometimes get carried away. Two points to consider further:
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param with the usual meaning and usage, and they should be added, too. I've written one template before, and I might be able to manage this, but I'd prefer someone else do it, or at least collaborate on it. Pinging
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that much about templates, but if the ~~~~~ could be worked in, that seems like it would keep it simple to use but still functional? (I'd support switching from the "name suspects" constructions to a signed template
927:
I usually place the user name in the template like you did above. I always thought the template would be better if you just typed a username in the field and it was converted to a link to the user talk/user
1063:
Two people (Moonriddengirl and NortyNort) who are very active in this area have commented. It's as a direct result of their comments that I made these proposal, so yes I did wait for more feedback.
658:
The massive re-write is actually bigger problem. We still have the (potential) copyvio in history, but we can't delete the offending revisions without destroying attribution we need for GFDL/CC-by.
155:
What does it matter who the editor is who placed the tag? I have not yet seen another maintenance template that requires one to sign inside the tag itself. Can't we do without that, and replace
1494:
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This template needs to be edited so that it generates a category on all pages on which this template is placed, so that all suspected copyvio pages with this template can be easily viewed. —
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is for when the source is known and this template is being used for two different things and so probably being ignored more than it should be. By creating a template and listing uses at
507:
Dating is something which is done over the board (the standarisation you mentioned) and even f you don't think it is necessary, I don't see you have given any reason not to apply it. And
1046:
else, rather just confirming the wikipedia way of collaborative editing and make it more likely the new template would satisfy everyone. I could probably have worded that point better.
809:
the source was not only immediately visible via google, but turned out to have been cited in the article. Is there a good reason for removing this long established parameter
1050:
hasn't, but still has suspicions. It seems clear to me that these are different situations and tagging them the same is confusing and complicates copyright investigation.
167:
results in adding a full date signature. I agree with the editor in one of the sections above who said that one should just write ones name there, if anything at all.
1395:? I see no reason why we should go out of our way to not categorize the fact that articles have been tagged as having suepected copyright infringements for years.
336:
apparently 1. the issue wasn't serious enough to warrant discussion right away, and/or 2. the tagging editor isn't interested in participating in discussion.
1274:
Besides being wordy, a full url seems to depend more on whatever method WMF is using at a given point so has less forward compatibility. In any case, having
49:
I went ahead and changed the instructions about the url. I think the template itself should be modified to prevent it trying to link my already linked sig.
1493:
I restored the original code since this discussion had gone stale and it turned out that, contrary to your original edit summary, it was hiding entries (as
296:
The reason is far more useful than the person, who after all, may no longer be active on WP. Indeed a fair number of these templates were placed by IPs.
713:
someone else to confirm that) - obviously we'd still have a problem if the new version was a derative of the old but that's not what I was referring to.
1311:
of it. (Alternatively, one could have the doc include both params but make it clear that it's an either-or, which could be enforced in the code.)
897:
Not really. Although it would be nice if the code would place only a link to the user talkpage, and not a full-fledged signature. Something like
597:
tagged several years ago. Both of these I would consider bad. I've explained above (when we were edit-conflicted) while I reverted - it's not
605:. Can I suggest you assume good faith and not accuse other editors. We obviously disagree and I think it's best if we wait for more input.
1307:
entirely, although we'd still have to handle it in the code for backward compatibility, at least until a bot or editors can upgrade all the
717:
but haven't even looked. Think we may well need a massive overhaul of copyright templates at some point. Will give that some thought.
493:
I suggest we wait and see what the views of other people who actually work in this area are. I'll post at a couple of relevant places.
980:
We get a bot to convert any existing tag that give a non-wikipedia url to copypaste tags with that url. This could be an ongoing task.
777:
field. If any editor suspects a copyright violation, they can use one of the template tags above or address it on the talk. If it just
163:? Especially since the talkpage history will always retain information as to who was the editor who placed the tag. In addition, using
508:
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it, I'm just trying to make sure that the views of people who use these templates are taken into account - that's quite different.
281:(where I discuss the date issue) these tags are expected to stay around a long time so searching the history could be difficult.
1083:
Sounds like a plan. Bearing in mind that there are only about 250 uses of this template the conversion will not be a major task.
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The new templates would be developed via discussion between the two groups of users - copyright people and the template people.
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when I investigate the former and can't find an issue. In those cases, I use the name of the person who placed the tag.) --
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lots of non-standard bullets|result=Author has cut and pasted form own work, permission in OTRS # 423424|date=July 2011}}
954:
Right, some concrete proposals (I admit these will take some time to get through, but at least then we'd have a target):
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I think your unwillingness to have people work on these articles from a backlog, is very un-Wikipedian, and borders on
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And you're notice that both my proposed templates have dates (I'll happily admit consensus is against me on that one).
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considered a backlog. Has the username of both the person raising the concern and the investigator in it somehow.
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article page, and no section should be created. But let's keep the discussion on the template talkpage, shall we?
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The "any concern" one is dated and is considered a backlog (and should probably automatically be added to
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within a few moments. Meanwhile many copies of the text have propagated to WP mirrors across the net.
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template, the lack of name and the dating, both of which I disagree with and reverted, both per
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My preference would be to encourage use of the new param by having the doc altered so that it
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lot of it is a very subjective so it is useful to know who placed the tag. As I discuss on
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I have used this template several times in WP:CP procedure; in cases where a user placed a
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I have put the URL in question after the second | character, but it doesn't link properly.
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Couldn't we use the same template and different documentation to support different uses?--
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http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/med/ans/Trainee%20Manual/Respiratory%20Problems/BRONCHOPLEURAL.pdf
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This category does have some of the elements of a backlog. For example I just looked at
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We slowly convert the rest manually as I'm not sure a bot could would work it out.
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This template seems to not work. If I follow the instructions, I see:
1438:). My reason for supporting dated categories is to do things like
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we make it less likely that copyvios will slip through the net.
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Yes it would be possible to, for example, have something like
672:- tagged sine November and determined it to be a copyvio of
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Category:Suspected copyright infringements without a source
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date and time? These two arguments are mutually exclusive.
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I propose to change the portion of the template that says
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We have other dated categories that are not backlogs.
72:(specifically <span class="db-cGxhaW5saW5rcw": -->
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Could you explain what you are trying to accomplish
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I'm not going to get into an edit war over this but
875:I understand why you moved forward, but in typical
1170:lots of non-standard bullets|date=July 2011}}
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1096:(or we could continue to use this one) and
973:The "proper investigation" one is dated but
1442:and hopefully encourage the regulars of
1479:Valid point that never occurred to me.
1190:http://en.wikipedia......%7Creason=uses
1168:http://en.wikipedia......%7Creason=uses
1278:as a param is briefer and can employ
1267:to the template and phase out use of
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813:than that no other template does it?
509:Knowledge (XXG):I just don't like it
1444:Knowledge (XXG):Copyright problems
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1326:It's also odd that there isn't a
1497:has 1 element and now has ~70).
835:templates on article faces with
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1271:which serves the same purpose.
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392:Also please see discussion at
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110:for authorship information)
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34:03:18, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
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226:Yes this is best removed.
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1042:In reply to your points:
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373:Copied from Rick's talk:
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220:01:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
193:00:55, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
177:00:27, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
126:03:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
1432:Special:Diff/1105820190
1263:I propose we add param
1178:And then change this to
394:Template talk:cv-unsure
1056:No, I'm not trying to
670:Bronchopleural fistula
1303:and drops mention of
1186:Copyvio investigation
1164:Copyvio investigation
1101:Copyvio investigated
1086:Templates might be
257:this masterly edit
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255:by Rich in
1499:* Pppery *
1481:* Pppery *
1449:* Pppery *
1397:* Pppery *
1299:documents
1205:Farmbrough
1114:Farmbrough
830:copy-paste
686:Farmbrough
417:Farmbrough
302:Farmbrough
232:Farmbrough
51:NickelShoe
1364:Debresser
1337:Debresser
1146:Debresser
1129:NortyNort
1030:Debresser
930:NortyNort
915:Debresser
905:. Btw, I
903:Debresser
859:Debresser
840:cv-unsure
784:NortyNort
754:copypaste
625:Debresser
547:Debresser
514:Debresser
449:Debresser
353:Debresser
338:Debresser
333:suspected
318:Debresser
261:Debresser
212:Debresser
185:Debresser
169:Debresser
138:Lowellian
1349:Mathglot
1313:Mathglot
950:Proposal
782:piece.--
468:End copy
1301:version
1276:version
1265:version
1257:version
1224:copyvio
1133:(Holla)
963:crowd).
934:(Holla)
928:page.--
788:(Holla)
744:copyvio
93:sources
1463:Pppery
1412:Pppery
1343:, and
1328:reason
1058:WP:OWN
1026:WP:OWN
1022:Oppose
911:WP:BRD
901:-: -->
877:WP:BRD
823:except
603:WP:BRD
599:WP:OWN
568:WP:BRD
543:WP:OWN
475:WP:BRD
84:) |}}
40:works.
1436:Chlod
1341:Dpmuk
1330:or a
1283:oldid
1259:param
1235:Dpmuk
1231:WP:CP
1142:Dpmuk
1071:Dpmuk
1007:Dpmuk
991:Dpmuk
968:WP:CP
961:WP:CP
818:would
811:other
779:looks
719:Dpmuk
640:Dpmuk
607:Dpmuk
573:Dpmuk
529:Dpmuk
495:Dpmuk
480:Dpmuk
398:Dpmuk
380:Dpmuk
283:Dpmuk
142:reply
104:(see
1471:talk
1440:this
1421:talk
1393:here
1368:talk
1353:talk
1332:talk
1317:talk
1297:only
1239:talk
1202:Rich
1150:talk
1111:Rich
1075:talk
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774:User
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683:Rich
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384:talk
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299:Rich
287:talk
265:talk
252:Done
229:Rich
216:talk
208:Done
189:talk
173:talk
165:~~~~
122:talk
107:and
55:Talk
1434:by
1305:url
1288:or
1269:url
975:not
797:-
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159:by
151:Who
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