Template talk:Batman/Archive 03

2296:

Freeze (and Hatter) have been in the TV series; the first four in the TV's film. They've all been in multiple incarnations of cartoons - on voice-notability, you've got Hammil as Joker, Warner as Ra's (and Barbeau as Catwoman) lending those three some minor brownie points on being potentially more widely known. Black Mask is moving up, but far too recent - purportedly around/involved during Knightfall and No Man's Land, he's barely (not?) mentioned in the TPBs of the former, and similarly in the latter (if memory serves). His notoriety is in the very recent past, and in particular Stephanie's (alleged) death. Bane has been around since he broke Bruce and was himself snapped by AzBat, but only barely. He lurked towards the end of No Man's Land, and was Ubu for Ra's, but he's famous for that one - albeit enormous - moment. Harley, Hatter, Croc, Clayface, Firefly, Strange and the Ventriloquist... Only the first four have any kind of widespread recognition - and Firefly is rubbish, anyway; Strange is one-note and the Ventriloquist, well, he's not on a par with the higher-ups, is he? He claimed the earthquake as his work, and has turned up a fair bit. He's notable, but not AS notable. Harley's a sidekick. The Hatter was in the 1960s TV show, true, so maybe he should be a candidate. Croc is a great villain, and the Clayfaces have longevity, but not the innovative Bat-villain streak, nor particularly widespread recognition:

183:'s above, that it is currently unclear what lasting impact the character of Damien Wayne will have to the overall history of Batman, and beyond that I would argue that his inclusion teeters on the "in-universe" problem when writing about fiction. To those reading the current storyline, the character is significant. To those familiar with Batman as a movie character, nostalgic TV character or widely-known cultural icon though, the character of Damian Wayne is currently a blip (or less). There have been many characters added over the decades that were intended by their writers to be extraordinarily important in the long run, but have since been left by the wayside. Hindsight will undoubtedly tell us if Damien Wayne is important or not. Until it does though, he's still just a character used sporadically in Elseworlds stories (as 147:

represents, along with te four supermen, DC's major push towards both 90's era grim'n'gritty, and the editorial push towards second generation characters for their falgship characters, not unlike barry to wally, hal to kyle, Katar to carter to carter to ..., Ollie to Connor, and so on. because of his position editorially and so on, I'd say his effects relative to market forces, publication history, and so on, matter more. THe 'son' theing's FAR less likely to last than Helena Kyle being Helena Kyle-wayne, given that whole fullpager in Catwoman. So let's drop all three, but if other convincing arguments for Azrael arise, then I can be counted supporting his inclusion.

876:, but she's still well above the line. And she's in the cartoon, too. ;o) She's the second female, head-and-shoulders above her more recent challenger. (N.B. Just occured to me that there's not a "Romantic interest" section with Vicki Vale and Silver St Cloud... are they relevant, or rightly kept to the "Supporters" page..? Vicki, for example, is probably better known than many of those listed (Certainly more so than Lucius, Renee, Harvey and Talia), almost solely because of Ms Basinger.) Frankly, Ivy is of a higher rank than Ra's, much as I like him. Easily so.. 157:

numerous other Elseworlds. The argument that only charcters that are part of most of the 75 year history is rediculous as that would only allow for Batman, Alfred, Oracle, Nightwing, and a few villains like Catwoman and the Joker. If this mandate were followed through then there would be an incomplete template. Sognofocance should be determined by who has been involved in the major events of Batman's 75 year history, not simply by the amount of time they are important.

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while "Batman" may link them through to comics-Batman, it's easy enough to re-navigate to BTAS or one of the live action films and glean the "right" information. So this books should be 99% comics) BUT that should not downplay the fact that recognizability and fame and being known is an accumulation of media bombardment as well as comics-reading. So having been a part of the TV serieses or films factors into the relative fame of the characters

31: 1927:. This is a character with an extremely long history, and there are readers of wikipedia of all ages who have some memory or experience (or casual interest) in that history. Giving undue weight to characters of importance in the last 10 years in only one medium (and in the case of comics, the medium that reaches the smallest number of potential readers given that an extremely popular comic book issue is read by less than 100,000 people). 1093:...) and the West-TV series, as well as the cartoons. Man-Bat's not been realised live, and neither has the Hatter. ;o) As I said, I'm trying (for amusement value as much as anything) to come up with a complex formula for calculating positions, and one criteria is appearances. Which are VERY difficult to total up, but breezing through the ComicBookDb puts Freeze ahead of Hatter - even if it is likely incomplete and so forth! 2278:

riding high, but that's transient), and then so on down the line until Ra's. Ra's is the cut-off point for me, and, I would suggest for most non-comics-Bat fans, and casual-comics Batman fans. Ra's, Freeze and Ivy may fall in the transition zone below Scarecrow; Clayface, Croc and Hatter may rise above the second tier to meet them, but otherwise people I've talked to about this agree with that general formulation.

731:(plus Bane) should be here, but I don't think anyone else needs to be. VILLAINS should be structured to list them, then "Important" ones (so CHILL, SNAKE, MOTH and ZUCCO for the reasons given, plus other not-quite-major and the local crime bosses would fit in that subsection). I noticed there'd been some restructuring there, so I'll pop over and stick my oar in! ;o) 124:(whether supporting, allies or villains) that have had either an extremely long and notable impact on the Batman character/universe, or which have had crossover mass appeal by being featured both in comics and the large hollywood movies (i.e. characters extremely familiar to thousands or millions of people who will never read a comic book). 1124:"more"/delinking... don't see that it's necessary to do the latter to do the former, but I think the "more" is more useful and obvious than the section-link. Not sure it would cause layout difficulties per se, though. Surely if it would extend the list onto two lines, the last character already on those lines would have already done that..? 2131:. The Joker's on the cover. Quite right. Figures of the following are shown clearly: Scarecrow, Riddler, Catwoman, Harley, Penguin, Mr Freeze, Killer Croc and Two-Face. Intriguing...! All (assuming they're not the only characters) are deemed noteworthy enough to include. No Clayface, no Hatter. No Ivy. But Harley, Croc and Freeze... 328:- He is a relevant character, and will play greatly in to Batman R.I.P. and should be included in Batman family as he is the only direct biological relative Batman actually has not counting the DCAU treatment of Batman Beyond. If not Batman family then he should at least be on supporting characters as Talia is. -- 2516:

Now, fair enough, she's always broadly been an anti-hero, and rarely played the role of "super-villainess" (as per, say, Poison Ivy) - she's a thief and rarely more. She's often marginally amoral, but does follow her own code. So it's a little harsh to put her in with the Joker and the Scarecrow, but

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Teams — I've voiced this else where, I'm not a fan of adding them to the character 'boxes, mostly given that characters pass in and out of teams. But if we were to add a group for them here, based on my understanding that the character had been used as part of the JSA in the 1940s (real world context

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I'm obviously slightly pleased that Azrael is now in his "proper" place(!), but at what cost? I see Stephanie, Bat-Mite and Ace the Bat Hound have now gone, but Man-Bat has been kept...? That's odd logic. Dick and Barbara are Robin and Batgirl first, but Nightwing and Oracle just as notably, so those

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There are millions of people who have seen the 80s/90s Batman movies but will never read a comic book, there is a new generation of people who grew up on the Animated Series and will watch the Christopher Nolan movies who will never read a comic book, there were tens of thousands of people who fondly

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In the DCU he's not much of a Batman villain. Indeed, he's one of the "super-powered" Bat-villains (either himself or through the use of a super-technological instrument). Such characters have typically been the "lesser"-used villains in the comics (for various reasons), though more used in animation

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probably explains my point better than I would myself. While I realize Lady Shiva and the League of Assassins have existed in one form or another since the late 60s to 70s, their prominence has been largely in the last 10 years (arguably 3 years). Furthermore, if you ask someone who has dedicatedly

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JEAN PAUL VALLEY shouldn't be listed as a Batman, he should be there as "AZRAEL" (Dick has also worn the cowl; Alfred has moonlighted on occasion; Jean-Paul was in it for a very short space of time, and it is not useful or relevant to have him there alongside BRUCE WAYNE - it gives undue reference to

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Extending the included - the sticking point is always going to be that word: "major." There has to be a cut off, but for that to stick, there needs to be a ranked list. (Should I try to plug numbers into my pseudo-mathemaniacal formula and produce a suggestion..?! ;o)) And that will be controversial

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The infobox is a collection of handy links. The "most likely to be used links", even. As such, it needs to reflect viewer demand as much as possible. Assuming that the majority of users will be after information on comics (which is likely a safe bet - if searching for the films or multiple cartoons,

1522:. In addition, under the heading "Azrael," the first paragraph is about Brane Taylor, Alfred, Robin and Superman all having filled in for Bruce... And the second paragraph closes "Wayne realized he needed to regroup in mind and body and asked Dick Grayson to give up being Nightwing for a time and be 1280:

Shiva and the League of Assassins are on the LIST OF BATMAN FAMILY ENEMIES page (although the League should be better represented and linked); RICHARD DRAGON is on the LIST OF SUPPORTING CHARACTERS page, and lowly at that - rightly. Henri Ducard should be there if a "Trained Wayne" list is required,

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Generally my input to this template has been to try to minimize the number of links to those with the largest possible appeal, on the theory that those interested in lesser characters or storylines can find them in the broader articles and linked Lists. Basically as this is the broadest navbox, I'd

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Probably trod on a few toes by reinserting Mr.Freeze but COME ON. He was a lead villain in one of the films, and the fact that everyone and their uncle considers it the worst film ever made doesn't alter the fact that from a subjective viewpoint it's just as valid as the others. He was in the 60s TV

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I say the comics should be standing alone, proudly, head-and-shoulders above all but the creators. But I realise I'm all-but alone on that..! ;o) And that honestly wasn't my intention on wanting to downgrade the "Alternate" lists. I just don't think they are on equal footing, which might be inferred

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I don't see a big problem with adding Vicki Vale to supporting characters, except that we may be opening floodgates. I think the character was a major character at one time, and there are those who may wish to find the character. However, who but a die-hard fan would have a clue who Silver St. Cloud

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This isn't a list page, it's a NavBox, so we should avoid listing characters twice. AzBat and Catwoman (and possibly the Riddler) are obviously question marks (no pun intended : ) - So let's start a new thread below to discuss them. (Note that we still haven't finished with Lady Shiva and the League

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Well, I'm glad you've joined the discussion (brief though it is so far). Criteria for a template like this is obviously tricky as there are differing opinions on the relative significance of characters. Recently you (referring to User:24.164.136.207) have insisted on the inclusion of Damian Wayne,

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I've reverted a few recent additions to the template, specifically Damien Wayne, Azrael and Renee Montoya. No prejudice against the editors who added these (or the characters themselves) but previous consensus regarding this template was to try to keep it as simple as possible, stressing characters

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Hmm, we should probably be wary of including too many villains as well as too few but it's definitely true that there's a large number of Batman villains and the amount included here is pitiful. I'd definitely include Mr.Freeze, Bane, Mad Hatter, Killer Moth, Ventriloquist, Killer Croc and possibly

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Villains — Again, in general I'm in favor of including most that have been mass marketed inside and outside of the comics. That includes the seven currently in the 'box plus the list I posted up page. The intent of the 'box, IIUC, is to hit the major articles of the topic. The elements here are the

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assume awareness of comics - what it can't do is assume great, deep and broad knowledge of deep continuity issues. Hence, of course, Azrael being an ally, not a Batman. It's confusing, misleading and only of interest to those deeply into continuity - and they'll know, or find it elsewhere. AzBat is

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Short form of the above: Keep it small, keep it focused, keep its attention on only those things recognizable to any interested party of the last 50 years. This is the not a complete overview, this is the Table of Contents to the 15 chapters in a beginner's book about The Batman. If someone wants

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My philosophy about character and item inclusion on this particular navbox has been to restrict it to characters with the largest possible reader awareness, regardless of medium. This navbox is intended to be the "Batman Page 1" wikipedia source. As such it can't assume an awareness of comics, it

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LADY SHIVA is certainly much more relevant than BLACKBUSTER, ZUCCO, HARLEY, SNAKE, probably BLACK MASK and CLAYFACE and maybe MOTH, CROC and HATTER, but see my comments above for how I feel that should be addressed. Even with the "Villains" category being a link to the "LIST" page, I think the list

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be under family, hence the tautological addition. Likewise, I think it utterly crucial to include a "more" after the Supporting cast and Villains, because that's the way the eye is drawn, and not everyone will think that the left-link will be a page, rather than a category. That's my experience and

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My major concern with the current look is the large amount of whitespace on the right side, which adds to the overall size without corresponding content (a major issue with a box at the bottom of so many pages). That said, I have no problem with "Batman" and "Detective Comics" being in the navbox,

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Yeah, I'm probably over-thinking this, but I really don't want to see this navbox constantly tweaked by each temporary change to a character that happens in a comic story arc. I'm certain in 1 year, or 5, or 10, the Riddler will be a villain again when a new writer takes over Detective Comics, and

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character of Batman (and related characters). The Riddler has not reformed in the 60s TV show, in Batman: The Animated Adventures, in the Joel Schumacher version. And he never will, he will remain forever as a villain in all of those depictions, available for rental or purchase wherever fine DVDs

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comment- Wiki, as an encylopedia, can't be just about the now, but should point to the greater history of the characters. Damien has existed about a year, and appeared in only a handful of issues. Important now, would make a characters like Harold or Stephanie's Brown's argument valid a few years

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mentioned when he reverted) and in less than 20 issues of currently being published comics. Knowledge (XXG) is not a crystal ball, the character could be killed in the next issue and forgotten about, Grant Morrison could announce he's leaving the title and the next writer won't care, etc. My last

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pages. Damien's back in a new story arc, one that implies that Ra's may use the body to return, no doubt because of shared genetics, which will probably burn off any wayne genetics during the resurrection, blah blah blah, or whatever. He might not last long. Azrael is a bit more significant, as her

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Catwoman - Given an overview of the character, she is not "just" or "first and foremost" one thing. Throughout the comics the character has moved from crook to love interest to confidant many times. Part of that is that the character has taken on aspects of a reluctant hero, or an anti-hero, which

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I think (and not just because I suggested them - honest! :o)) that the "more" links are really quite important. This is meant to be (as far as I understand) a kind of "idiot proof" quick-link box to facilitate easy navigation. So a non-exhaustive list needs an "also" "etc." or "more" - even if the

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Plus, yes, he's cross-media. But there's already an infobox dealing with the films (at least), and Batman IS a comics character first and foremost. That said, BATMAN and DETECTIVE COMICS will suffice, but should be higher - LIST OF BATMAN COMICS/"Publications" should be a left-hand field link like

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hard to realise which people are "Properly" on which teams. In any case, having a link to the team from the character isn't as bad as the reverse - i.e. If a JLA infobox were to try and include Vixen and Max Lord, there might be a concern to raise over that logic. But linking back to JLA/JLI from

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With regards to some of the layout questions, please note that at this moment I'm using an ancient monitor (to be using my normal one soon, hopefully). So it's possible I'm not seeing what you're seeing in terms of what "line" a link is on. Though I'll note that we shouldn't get "hung-up" on such

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rightly on the Bat Family list. She's the (other) major love interest. She's currently on the side of the good. She helped out in NML, and went on a road trip with Tim and Jean Paul during the KnightQuest (I think). She variously knows who's under the cowl and weaves through the upper echelons of

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a) Over the scope of many decades of the 70 year history of the Batman, the Riddler has been one of the most iconic and recognizable villains. His notability, both in image and persona, are well known beyond the scope of comic book fans, unlike (for instance) Black Mask or The Mad Hatter. 40-50

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than Joker/Catwoman/Penguin/Riddler/Two-Face/Scarecrow/Ivy/Freeze/Ra's, which I hope most might agree on. Clayface and the Hatter come close, maybe at times closer than Ra's, Freeze and Ivy on separate criterions, but not collectively. The nine have all been in live-action FILMS. The first four,

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There are two tiers of major-ity - there are the KNOWN BY EVERYONE, even those who may well not have seen any of the comics, cartoons, films or TV series. Those are Joker and Catwoman, and likely Penguin. Many will have heard of the Riddler (and at the moment Scarecrow and Two-Face are probably

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Bill Finger NEEDS to be here. Jerry Robinson probably ought to be, too. The key rest are rightly on a separate list page, but Bob Kane is not the sole creator of Batman, and it is the duty of an Encyclopedia - and much, much, much shame on Mr Greenberger for this omission - to make sure that is

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On that note, I really think it is an oversight to not include Bane, Mr. Freeze, Harley Quinn, Killer Croc, Black Mask and Mad Hatter on a list of Batman's main villains considering their cross-media appearances and relative popularity amongst comic/movie/tv fans, and significance to the Batman

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Hello, just want to throw my 2 cents into this discussion. For the most part I agree with most of the proposed additions to the list that J Greb suggest. Considering that the "Batman Family" list includes Bat Mite and Ace the Bat Dog, I think the inclusion of a few major villains really wont be

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comment is this: I'm reverting again. User:24.164.136.207 mentions in his last edit something about "2 to 1" for inclusion and I'd like to see that count. Myself, ThuranX and Jc37 seem to all have a problem with the character's inclusion, and I only see one person who continues to add it. -

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Dunno about Catwoman. (or Riddler for that matter.) I seem to recall some discussions, but I think that that's something that will need to be discussed at the WikiProject talk page, since the villain/anti-hero/hero/ambivilent money-maker characters can be problematic in placing. For now, it's

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That said, as much as you or I may think she's a "flash in the pan", she's probably "here to stay", and is already more famous than many long standing villains. I'd leave her off, as she still doesn't rate compared to even the Mad Hatter, except that I guearantee we'd be constantly seeing her

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Damian Wayne is the son of Batman noted for his significance in multiple continuiteis of Batman. He is also an important player in recent events. He is a member of the continuities belonging to Son of the Demon, Kingdom Come, the modern main continuity (which includes him becoming Batman) and

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However this is my opinion, so I'm starting a new conversation thread here to see how other editors feel about the scope of this template, what characters (if any) should be added or removed going forward, and what is the best criteria to use in judging any such thing on a case by case basis.

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Yes to JLA (if teams are added), that's obvious. No to JSA: wrong Earth, needlessly complicated - is Helena Wayne to be included...? Bruce wasn't on the Titans team, so that's unnecessary - this is the BATMAN box, not Bat-Family. (Hmmm....) Yes to BATMAN AND THE Outsiders. Maybe even yes to

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I recently changed the groups that both Catwoman and The Riddler are listed under from villains to supporting cast, as neither Catwoman nor The Riddler act as villains anymore. The way I see it, if Man-Bat and Red Robin can be included in this group, then so should Catwoman and The Riddler.

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How about changing the font size a bit? On my screen (1280x960 res on 19" CRT) I can hardly read the various items. What I can read rather clearly are the links to pages outside of wikipedia which are set in a different font style. I think increasing the fontsize by one or two would benefit

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I have some issues with the size of (and particularly the amount of whitespace in) the current version and would love to see it significantly tightened up. To avoid the overall look bouncing back and forth with edits and re-edits on 50 linked pages, please give comments or approval to

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In my opinion, none of the three characters I've reverted match either of those criteria, as all three are relative to the 75+ years of Batman's history, extremely recent characters, not even taking into account that they have no crossover mass market appearances that I'm aware of.

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It's not going to be possible to produce a non-complex inclusion guidelines, because it's going to have to rely on subjectivity somewhere along the line. I have produced a VERY complicated pseudo-mathematical calculation index, but I don't know whether that wouldn't just make things

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It seems overly harsh to say "he's not much of a Batman villain," since name-recognition, ease-of-identification and general "known"-ness are as much a part of being a Batman villain as carrying out heinous crimes. Dr Phosphorus fails on both counts (widely unknown; looks like Ghost

1333:-hul would be inserted elsewhere alphbetically; while (as I think I mentioned elsewhen) Lucius is far, far less notable than Gordon, Talia and Vicki; Renee and Bullock even less so - they may or may not even warrant inclusion, but if so they'd be distant last and second-to-last: 500:

You could be right - it ("maybe") should just be those two titles, but they DEFINITELY should be main-linked, not just through-linked from "Publications" - they're much more important and relevant than that! Likewise, I think the newspaper strip is as relevant as, say, "Utility

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c) links to characters and individuals who are absolutely unique regarding this subject so are not part of a special subset (e.g. there have been many creative individuals who have worked on the subject, but only one person actually created the Batman, so he is a "unique"

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I agree with Markeer. We should keep this as concise as possible. I think "Misc." now looks like a "history" section, which looks fine to me. I doubt people are going to not see the publications at the bottom. Honestly, the best place in a navbox is either the top or the

714:, and was mildly important since they wanted to make Batman harsher but decided not to do it to Bruce, hence Azbat. But JPV is AZRAEL, who is currently un-linked. The "ALTERNATE VERSIONS" mentions that JPV took the cowl on for a while, and I think that's enough. 2429:

Publications — Given the breadth of runs, I'm not a fan of this becoming a separate group. Leave the list linked into the "Miscellanea" along with the massive storylines list. (This logic can and should also be applied to Superman, Spider-Man, X-Men, and the

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A second person just moved the Riddler from villain to supporting character (presumably based on the recent storyline in Det. Comics) and I'm about to revert it to hear more opinions. Not trying to be a jerk, just resetting it to pre-change to hear more

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And note that the list of "rogues" as opposed to "minor villains" was something I oganised. (A work in progress atm.) Though it, at least, lists all the "significant" villains who've had at least semi-distinctive appearances in comics (both visually and

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I think the primacy of the Joker (or Catwoman, if I "win" that side-argument!) should count double for keeping Harley off the list. She's popular, she'll probably last a good while, and she is another female character, which is always good. But she's no

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says "characters with the largest possible reader awareness, regardless of medium." I think that's overstated. Comics should and must be primary. That said, I largely agree. However, while that holds great importance as this is THE BATMAN LINK PAGE, it

936:, a semi-important member of the extended Bat-Family in his own right. It would be a kindness to the character to gloss over his AzBat stage (even though I liked the story, the idea and SOME OF the logic behind it) and give him credit for being Azrael. 1392:

explains it, yes, that makes a certain amount of sense. Although I'd argue for work, GCPD, home and women as the better order, starting Alfred, Gordon.. but I'm not overly fussed. Just couldn't easily figure it out, for the reasons given above. :o)

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I know this is tending to be circular, but still... ;o) JPV was not Batman on the same level that Tim, Dick and Jason (and Stephanie) were Robin. He was not THE Batman (even Gordon realised that), and he was not ultimately not even "A" Batman - he

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is reasonably fair enough. As far as the JSA goes, though, Batman is a very minor member of a brief incarnation of the JSA - the Earth-2 Batman is dead or absent for most key Earth-2 JSA shenanigans, and clearly not on the Post-CoIE JSA. Indeed -

1609:(mostly for the same reasons that they aren't used as much in comics). Doctor Phosphorus would be another example, and one who would probably be more notable in the comics than Mr. Freeze. (The second Clayface being the "most notable" of these.) 827:

probably best to place them where they've long been. Hence why Riddler is listed as a villain, though he's seemed to reform (see Penguin, and several members of Flash's Rogues for other examples of the back-n-forth of villain, "no I'm not".)

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series and the 90s cartoon and has been in the comic for nearly 50 years (admittedly as a fairly minor villain in the early years but then so was the Penguin). And I'd like to point out that Mad Hatter was in the live action series as well.

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I agree that it's a NavBox not a list, but that's why I think it MORE important to double up Catwoman and shift Azrael! It's to ease and speed navigation, and Catwoman is first and foremost a Villain - but very closely a Family member; JPV

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as well as/instead of just the linked heading. It needs to be obvious and easy, and that means at the end. A logical Progression: Joker, Catwoman, Penguin, Riddler. Two-Face. Scarecrow. Ivy, Freeze, Ra's.... AND SOME OTHERS. In notability

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Bruce named him Batman, and then "retired". He was legitimately the "star" of Batman for some time. "Stand-ins" just aren't the same. Aditionally, if we weren't to include the fact that he was Batman, "Azrael" rates lower than KGBeast for

1022:"more" - If we go that route, then I suggest that we de-link the section headings. It should be one or the other, not both. But again, I can see potential problems with that as the layout. So I suppose I'm not quite sold on the idea. 904:

down the list of Bat-related characters, and I'm not entirely sure why he's on this page at all, frankly. Can he really stand shoulder-to-shoulder as part of the Bat-family with the Batgirls, Batwoman and Huntress? Even against

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b) links to other navboxes, categories, lists and broadest articles on the various subjects so both casual and involved readers can get to a specific article of interest with only two clicks (one on this box, one on the linked

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And adding in characters due to fame in "alternate uses", probably not. Indeed, if some "alternate use" becomes "notable" enough, DC will utilise the character more in the Bat-books. They did so with Batgirl, after all : )

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remember the campy 70s Batman TV series who will never read a comic book. However, the longest history of the character and the greatest amount of creative work over the greatest amount of time is of course in the comics.

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far..! So I took the liberty of re-insterting Freeze and Ivy (easily on a par with Ra's), as well as making sure that Catwoman wasn't missed. She's clearly switched about a lot, but should be under Villains before Family.

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Clayface is on a similar tier comics-wise - but not films. Mad Hatter, likewise. Neither have wider name-recognition status. (Although both are higher than Terry McGinnis - who should not be here - AND Renee Montoya; who

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alternate Batman. A "mistake" as Bruce, Dick and Tim agree IN-comic and fans and staff broadly agre outside of them. He is, was and could be again an ally, and that's where he ought to be. Similarly, Catwoman is a MAJOR

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Batman. The Robins are all sidekicks to THE Batman, so they can all be "Robin". Azrael and Dick filled-in for "THE" Batman, attempting to portray themselves as the same character. But not Terry. So that's a non-starter.

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are found. There's a permanence to aspects of this character as a villain in stories about the Batman, in depictions that are extremely well known by millions of people who will never in their life pick up a comic book.

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I think we're better served to include only the most core, the most famous, the most integral to the Batman story, while looking at the character based on the character's entire history, rather than just one era of it.

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Yes, for hardcore comics navigation, Julie Madison and Silver St. Cloud (and Sasha and Shondra) should be in a list of their own, but this is not that page. Vicki Vale is iconic beyond the comics, though (and arguably

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Man-Bat is a tortured semi-anti-hero, yes. He's not "evil," certainly. However, he's probably another one who could fit in either category, but should certainly be (and is) on the Long List Page. Moreovver, he is also

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the epitome of fleeting, quickly-papered over change. Introduced because they wanted Bruce to go off the deep end, but then thought they ought not to let BRUCE go off the deep end... hence, an alternate Batman. An

1589:

Further, if we restrict this only to comics, are we only talking about appearances in the mainstream DCU? There have been a myriad of uses of characters and locations in "alternate use" storylines/publications.

1540:

He filled in as Batman, of course he did. But he should be given parity with Bruce! He should be - and IS - mentioned as an alternate in the list of various Batmen; mentioned on his page - probably mentioned on

723:

Snake, Moth and Zucco may be mildly important for those reasons (although I don't necessarily agree!) but that would be why they're worthy of high-ish mention on the full VILLAINS page, not really in the BATMAN

450:

Since Batman is a comics character, why isn't there a section on the MAIN titles he appears in? A tiny link buried at the bottom isn't good enough, because it's quite an integral thing to the character. Surely.

1097:, indeed...! (But we may be best taking this further on the Villains List Page - I think those listed now are probably the best-of-the-best. Basically, SIX - inc. Catwoman - then Ivy. . . . . . 738:

is my take on how it should look - Batman and Robin on one line; (Major) Villains pared down to one line, but with a very-visible "Other," Vehicles separate and "Alternate Versions" relegated to "See also."

1493:

From the other perspective, if he was named and cowled by Bruce - so was Dick. If he was the star of Batman - so was Dick. The name "Robin" refers to Dick Grayson. And Jason Todd and Tim Drake. <Pause:

539:

although I also have no problem with the general link to the List of Batman Titles either. No more than two overall links though please, as this is a cross-media character, not just a comics character. -

2504:- "In universe" it's even more recent - she was (variously) prostitute, petty thief, burglar and murderer for several years before the more recent - still hazily grey - move towards the side of the good. 1625:

So if Mr. Freeze is added, so too should be Clayface. So too should be the Mad Hatter. So too should be Terry McGinnis as Batman. So too should Harlequin. And so too should a myriad of other characters.

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But I would think that we should be able to find 10 (at the very least, though 25 would be better) verifiably notable individuals/groups who identify such things, in order to cull from them such a list.

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I didn't realise there'd been a fight over AzBat, but still. I cannot believe Jean Paul deserves to (effectively) share credit as "a" Batman. There is ONE Batman........................................

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Clayface is notable..? (Karlo, clearly, but it's still a question.) Clayface was there at the end of NML but absent during Knightfall. Where was he/it during War Games..? He's on a lower level, surely.

202:

But you're including Harvey Bullock... he's hardly got a larger role or greater significance in the Batman universe than Renee Montoya (who has now even become the second incarnation of The Question).

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As for what character where, I still don't think Mr. Freeze comes even close to the 7 currently listed. But then, I'd also rank Man-Bat as higher than Freeze. 'tec 400, and a consistantly recurring

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character both as KL and as M-B? The rather rarely appearing Mr. Zero (I mean Freeze) doesn't even come close. (Here's a challenge, list the number of issues that Mr Z/F has appeared in, which is

883:

Unequivocably, though, Catwoman needs to be on the Villains list. And so does the Riddler. No contest - Villains in the TV series both. Villains on film, both. Villains for decades. "Adverseries"

1288:

I disagree that Shiva is "too recent" though - a (small, but crucial) part of DEATH IN THE FAMILY, she was absolutely integral to KNIGHTFALL, too. But I actually think in this case it should be

1220:

Lady Shiva is now known to be the mother of Cassanrda Cain, was one of those interrogated as to whether she was Jason's mother, and has been mostly appearing in bat-boks almost exclusively.

504:

I like the current compromise, but I still think the publications should be second only to creators. The most important information about BATMAN goes: BATMAN, BOB KANE (and Bill Finger)....

954:...! Those are important pages (well, the Batman one is - because it mentions AzBat, allowing this page not to! :o)) but should be relegated somehow, I feel. Not sure how, though, really... 1101:

Ra's (probably). That's how I'd see it, anyway. Freeze I'd still say could compete with Ra's for "known-ness" and exposure, and probably beat him, but I'll leave it be for the moment. ;o))

836:

I doubt you'll convince me about Mr Freeze. Except for the appearance in a Bat-flop by Ahnold, he doesn't come close to even Mad Hatter. From what I can tell, he's about equal to Firefly.

2497:, it's true. But that's hair-splitting over the name of the section: she is on the "other" side - the side of criminals. 1993, her series starts with her as an international cat burglar. 93:

Hmmm, okay. However, that Superman template further up-site seems not to use 80%... Edit: Okay, just checked, in fact, the Superman template does use 80%, so how come it looks diferent?

1622:, it's interesting to note that the "new" Mr Freeze is a result of that series. As were Harlequin and Renee Montoya. (And the "new" Mad Hatter, and the "new"... well you get the idea.) 920:

force in the comics - but neither has the Hatter, be honest! Freeze ranks higher than the Hatter any day. (And he could take him.) Garfield Lynns is a waste of space, though, I agree...

1495:

And Stephanie Brown. The name "Batman" refers to Bruce Wayne. Full Stop. Page break. Page break. Others who have temporarily worn the cowl would include JPV. And Dick. <Pause: -->

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a group shot. (Like not Batman 400, for example.) Mad Hatter wins, hands down, and I don't even have to count the "other" Hatter. Heck, I think the Calendar Man wins hands down. : )

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The main thing to remember is that this template is intended for navigation, not an IWANTIT sheet for someone's favourites. And atm, there is really little reason to not eliminate

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individual villain (or character for that matter) names, and merely list the links to the lists. So can we (including me) please do better than personal preference rationales and

2378:), so that's also odd. The Newspaper strips are crucial, though - I read yesterday that Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot might not have been given that name until the news strips... 1435:

Also, of everything, I think the linebreak was most useful to give vehicles their own section, and the "alternate versions" a "new line". Further discussion welcome, of course. -

1834:

At first impulse, I'd want to ask why Firefly, and Black Mask, and why not Killer Moth. (And what about Lady Shiva, arguably more "notable" than most of the suggested additions.)

355:

Now, the change I made for The Riddler I suppose could be contentious, but I really think Catwoman should not be listed as a villain. She hasn't acted in that capacity in years.

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I agree with the idea of trying to keep the lists to the "major"s and "core" characters, but I'm a little wider of view for the villains. Mostly looking to the characters from

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watched all 6 Batman movies since 1989's Batman about these characters, they would look at you blankly (although I realize there is a separate navbox just for those movies).

1230:

Richard Dragon to a lesser extent only through his interaction with the other two characters, and because he's now noted to have been one of those who trained Bruce Wayne.

229:). He is, at best, a recurring character. He is not a supporting character. Too many other characters who appear far more often than he has are excluded from the template. 2201:, and sometime-ally. Both the least-villainous AND the second most iconic villain, but a villain nonetheless. I vote she be BOTH ally and villain, but Villain trumps ally. 2524:

a love-interest. Ra's is the villain; Talia initially merely family. She's criminalised/become more prominent over time, but her Bat-relationship is as love interest.

641:

I just recently deleted the Robin navbox, as mostly redundant to this one. That said, I think we could argue for the retension of those characters on their own basis.

299:, where he and a myriad of other characters are. I see no need for him to be directly in the navbox. At this time, simply not comparable to the Joker, for example. - 1850:

That said, I really would like to discuss criteria for inclusion in navboxes, and the balance of having a list vs. a navbox. Both presentations may be useful per

1586:

Now is this navbox restricted to only characters in the comics, and their usage in the comics, or are we talking about every appearance in the Batman franchise?

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Well, thanks to literary present tense, he's both. And while on one hand we probably only need him listed once on a nav template, on the other hand, if we stay

2829:

Batman has one of the richest rogue's gallery of any superhero. There should denfinately be more villains added to the template. Here are the ones I suggest:

1615:

However, Mr. Freeze was protrayed on film by Arnold Schwarzenegger. And though the film itself "flopped", the fame of the actor has lent "fame" to Mr. Freeze.

830:

Compare that to Man-Bat. Though he's opposed Batman occaisionally due to his feral nature/brainwashed/coerced, he's no villain, and Dr. KL is clearly an ally.

816:

Seriously though, she's used these days, mostly becase she's "another female character", and because she become so surprisingly popular from the 'toon series.

1321:

What's the order logic being used for "Supporting characters"...? A-lfred, F-ox, G-ordon, H-arvey...? Or some semblance of notability? Neither works, since

2726:

I think, at this point, we're all fairly aware of the media's influence (television and film, etc) on such lists, and may take that into due consideration.

2709:

For example, I seem to recall seeing on television a top 100 villains list of all time. Culling Batman's enemies from there, for example, would be a start.

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a) the main characters as recognizable by the largest number of people, which will largely mean people with at best a cursory familiarity with the subject,

775:

Still think JPV has no business being listed as, ostensibly, equal to Wayne and NOT as Azrael, and that "Alternate versions" should be appended with the

943:

Robin (Dick, Jason, Tim, Stephanie) on the same line. Batman box: "Batman and Robin". That makes sense, surely? Is there a reason for the line break..?)

2517:

she IS an adversary. If "Villains" needs to changed to a 'softer' term, then that's perhaps preferrable. Otherwise, she ought to be in BOTH categories.

647:

Blockbuster as much as Killer Croc and as much (or even moreso) as Black Mask. Note that all three have been a local "crime boss" at one time or other.

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beyond the comics, longevity-wise), but she's FAR, FAR more important and noteable to non-comics people than Harvey Bullock and Renee Montoya. I mean

142:

I concur on two counts. Montoya would fit a gotham characters template (and I'm am NOT proposing one, there are ENOUGH bat-utility-templates on these

75:

Just checked: Increasing the font size to 82% does the trick for me, but if no one else has that issue I wouldn't wanna be so bold as to change it...

2570:(Ultimately this is just a sideshoot of my/your?/others' wider concerns about "distorting" the various categories by including 'minor' with 'major'. 644:

For example: King Snake is as significant/intrinsic to Tim's orgin as Robin, as Killer Moth to Barbara as Batgirl, or "Boss" Zucco to Dick as Robin.

1109:

Azrael, but guested as AzBatman. He's Family first, foremost and almost-entirely ONLY. He's an "Alternate Batman" - and listed on that linked page.

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ed onto a different line, which is one thing I think a bit unnecessary. But you're right: layout should be subservient to content (and placing...

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and foremost - She debuted as a villain. So on that (albeit slightly spurious) logical line of reasoning, she is indisputedly "First" a Villain.

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To address the whitespace, I would suggest removing BLOCKBUSTER, ZUCCO, HARLEY and KING SNAKE from the Villains list, and replacing them with "

1432:

If we go that route, I think we should at least put a nobreak after each parenthsis. (It looks odd to see a Parenthesis at the end of a line.)

2469:..) in both sections. And possibly Stephanie/Spoiler. Although I will say that personally having her JUST as Spoiler does not bother me, but 1712: 689:

linked through, just as I noticed that Catwoman was under Bat Family rather than villains - I think both should be linked to twice, for ease.

2809:

And yes, it is different from the situation with Catwoman. That character has decades worth of history "not-quite-a-villain/outlaw-hero". -

2545:

It's not on the level of JLA or Batman-and-the-Outsiders. But, maybe it could be included, IF 'Teams' was a worthwhile addition to this box.

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seems like the best plan." That point is precisely why I suggested that there should be an obvious "ETC." "AND OTHERS" "MORE VILLAINS" link

1612:

The character appeared in one form or another on the Batman series of the 60s, and has appeared more often in animation than in the comics.

164: 2461:

Robin, Batgirl, Robin. How can a Robin list not include Dick, for goodness' sake...? That needs to come back. Hence, as I've said before,

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before I apply it to the main namespace. No content or entries have been altered from today's version, only formatting and appearance. -

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society and Wayne's inner circle. So she ought to be on both lists. But she should absolutely be on the Villains one first and foremost.

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Alternate versions is not equal to "in other media", though they may have such sections appended. I think a line break should be enough.

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No. Changing the font size would make it inconsistent with all our other DC templates, several of which often appear on the same pages.

2405:

I'm a little more holistic in looking at subject matter for the 'box, that does put me at odds with some of the points you brought up.

1537:, Azrael as Batman is not deemed important. Indeed, I wonder whether post-Zero Hour AND Infinite Crisis, JPV even took up the cowl...?! 2249: 1992:

My main request is that some semi-concrete, non-subjective criteria for inclusion be determined. Else this template (and others) will

1629:

And so too should probably be the "teams" Batman and Robin have been directly associated with. JSA/JLA, the titans, and Batman solely

2399:

As for Stephanie... the editor that re-worked the "family" added in a piping for "Spoiler", so only the dog and the imp were removed.

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should also be in that infobox, along with key/main/multi-programme voice artists - and clearly Paul Dini ought also to in the box.

2057:

Similarly, BATMAN IN POPULAR CULTURE should right be the overarcing box with "1989-1997" and "Fan" being sub-categories. Good call.

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So I dunno. I think keeping the list as short as possible, while providing a link to the lengthier list seems like the best plan.

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equipment. No need to build a whole new section (which would be an "extra line" anyway). Though I suppose I wouldn't oppose that.

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Lady Shiva. There's also the issue of whether Catwoman should be moved here as well but that's an argument for a different day.

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Remember that it shouldn't be formatted based on one's current screen resolution. More than just you or I will be viewing this.

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from the template. We cannot know what Damian's lasting impact will be and we are not supposed to guess about such things (see

2245:

offers: Bane; Black Mask; Clayface; Firefly; Harley Quinn; Killer Croc; Mad Hatter; Mister Freeze; Prof Strange; Ventriloquist

2743:

I also think it would be worth investigating which villains were chosen to be included in the most recent Batman comic strip.

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ago, and they have no business on the navbox at any point. Damien is an unestablished character, whose future is uncertain.

2212:"links to... various subjects so both casual and involved readers can get to a specific article of interest" quickly - YES 1574:

As Batman (and Superman for that matter) are cornerstones of the DCU, and as the character has been around for decades, a

550: 2476:

I would have to disagree with you over Catwoman (not entirely surprisingly! ;o)) not least on several technical grounds:

1761:

There's an option or two for compacting the other four, either into one larger 'box or into one using collapsable groups.

658:"I'd prefer it be a top level introduction to the topic leading to the most commonly desired subjects and articles only." 2806:

Right now? Based on the current what, 2 years worth of appearances? No. That is a very recent addition to the character.

2548:

I reluctantly concur about publications being part of miscellany, but that rankles with me quite a bit considering that

1039:

And just because 'tec and bm may be important, doesn't mean that they need to have the misc section all to themselves :p

794:

Give me a moment to more fully respond to this and the above. Else we'll end up reverting each other in confusion : ) -

296: 1583:

So we, I presume, have restricted this page to just the "most iconic" characters which are directly related to Batman.

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I was criticised for putting that many comics titles on before (although I think they should be there - minus, maybe,

1982: 1619: 2543:"Although a charter member, Batman's participation in JSA cases was minimal; he served only in a reserve capacity.." 1299:

Incidentally, even though the link would be the same ORACLE should be on this list in addition to BATGIRL (Barbara)

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I think Freeze is, as you say, clearly not quite on par with the Top Seven, BUT he's in the films (albeit, clearly,

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prefer it be a top level introduction to the topic leading to the most commonly desired subjects and articles only.

38: 1734: 1675:(And I'll note that they have started a new arc with Mr Freeze searching for his apparently now-living wife. But 1448:

Looks very awkward with the Batgirls now being spread over two lines like that. I have a solution however.... if

1223:

Bronze Tiger killed the first Batwoman. (While not so certain in the current chronology, they've been hinting at

842:

And AzBat is just simply controversial. Where he is now is a compromise that has stopped a plethora of reversion.

1469:

As for Azrael, as I've mentioned previously, you're going to have a tough sell to suggest that he wasn't Batman.

2215:"links to characters and individuals who are absolutely unique" - YES, BUT also some who are not totally unique 168: 2511:- 1966: Julie Newmar, Eartha Kitt and Lee Merriwether - adversaries. 1992: Michelle Pfeiffer - adversary. Etc. 833:

I'd list Catwoman part of the Bat-family. She may be a foe, but she stopped being a "villain" a long time ago.

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even if this doesn't happen, it will be a long long time before this icon changes in popular understanding. -

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major elements of the Batman mythos, that extends beyond "Batman in comics" just as it extends beyond "post-

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is? So if we limit it to Vicky (I'm rather hesitant even with Julie), then that should hopefully be enough.

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Up to this point in organising the template listings, I've given more weight to Batman-related characters

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Nothing missed, I don't think - I just need to convince you/everyone on a couple of minor points..! :oP

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under "The Man Himself (as Batman)". But tellingly, AzBat's #2 in "The Batman Counterparts" after the

1344:

I notice that Azrael now has a link, so we're halfway towards putting him in his rightful place.. ;o)

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I noticed Spoiler, but like Oracle and Nightwing it's not enough to have them there - it needs to be

1941:

to know something very specific, they flip to the glossary in the back (i.e. linked sub-categories) -

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I'll try and avoid layout-comments, if possible, then! But with Batman and Robin, they're <br: -->

47: 17: 1676: 957:

I think that covers most things - I see Ivy is back, so that's a step in the right direction..! :oD

226: 2890: 2836: 1193: 1121:...! (Not that I think they should be removed, however, and not to disparage them. But... come on!) 268: 254: 242: 2291:

To pick apart the - similar - lists of additionals is largely to simply argue that they are still

1661:

So it's a question of criteria. What do we decide to include, and what criteria do we base it on?

1530:." (Emphasis added.) The sections 3 and 4 are "Potential Future" and "Imaginary/Elseworld" Batmen. 1340:

Alfred (Pennyworth in parentheses), Bullock (...), Fox, , Gordon, Montoya, , Vicki. (Alphabetical)

946:

I quite agree - Alternate Versions isn't equal to Other Media. However, they also aren't equal to

487:

I think the best solution is probably just to have "publications" as the first item under Misc. -

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All of that said, I'm of course more than happy to follow consensus on the form this box takes -

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and thank you for moving to the talk page with your argument. My counter argument is similar to

916:

I think you do Fries a disservice...! Ahnold aside, he was in the TV series. He's hardly been a

2371:

Catwoman is a Villain first, and "family" a long way second, so she's still in the wrong place.

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to BATMAN to be relegated in this way. Just as Azrael is not, and Catwoman is - as adversary.)

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As always my hesitation is about relative importance for many of these entries. The essay on

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This actually leads to a question I'd like to discuss in another section, so see below : ) -

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should be up there with Kane and Finger (and Robinson). And arguably Sprang, etc... They're

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Strange, Clayface, Hatter, Zsasz, Croc, Black Mask, Ventriloquist, Bane & (maybe) Hush.

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The core 'box should at the least acknowledge the notables that have had legs across media.

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things for that very reason. We can't be sure of how a reader may be viewing this template.

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Definitely not a set or subset of the "current" publications. (Per a current discussion at

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Shouldn't the Riddler be moved to supporting characters since he is no longer a villain?--

2636:

based on your or my preferences? you, me, and others could each come up with our own cool

2588: 2383: 2326: 2218:"(e.g. there have been many creative individuals who have worked on the subject, but only 2073:(very, very, very 'maybe') he should be in a Bat-box, but not alongside Bruce. There's no 1553: 1457: 1398: 1349: 1304: 1165: 1136: 962: 784: 744: 569: 521: 456: 426: 359: 2767: 2668: 2054:. That they're in the box and not (as far as I can see) on the page is a gross oversight. 1510:

Speaking of this new updated Encyclopedia - Azrael is mentioned as a "Gotham Ally" under

1281:

but I don't think it is - even though that would pass the film-watcher test mentioned by

421:, he should probably be listed in both sections. (I was wondering how this is handled by 668:

I think I'll go over the big list, and see about some pruning and possible additions. -

560:

Since they're already on two lines, why isn't VEHICLES a separate field to EQUIPMENT...?

2942: 2926: 2818: 2800: 2774: 2592: 2444: 2387: 2358: 2330: 2002: 1986: 1945: 1858: 1829: 1689: 1557: 1480: 1461: 1439: 1426: 1402: 1380: 1366: 1353: 1308: 1263: 1237: 1207: 1169: 1155: 1140: 1060: 966: 852: 798: 788: 748: 672: 573: 557:

him). Then the ROBINs can be moved up alongside BATMAN (BRUCE), and another line saved.

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And I dunno about the "more" links. I like 'em and I don't like 'em. Worth discussing.

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that she's been anti-heroine rather than criminal/villain. She's less "villain" than

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The LoA is so obvious that it could honestly be added without a need for discussion.

632:

And Harley's just too popular, and has really become identifiable with the franchise.

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Please stop inserting and removing characters while this discussion is in progress.

2237:

offers: "Bane, Mr. Freeze, Harley Quinn, Killer Croc, Black Mask and Mad Hatter" as

939:(Plus I think it saves space and doesn't compromise anything to have Batman (Bruce) 386:

years as a well-known villain trumps less than one year of "reformed" in my opinion.

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If it's everything, then we open the door to Terry McGinnis being added as Batman.

1499:

He's rightly mentioned on the "Alternate Batmen" page. It's rightly (indeed, quite

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after "other media," but since those may be more controversial, I've left them be.

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borderline case. She's about a step below Scarecrow, and could probably be added.

727:

As per my earlier comments on the VILLAINS page, there are 7-9 "Major" villains.

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also says that "recognizab by the largest number of people" is important - YES.

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The compromise (to my mind) is to use this navbox as much as possible to link to

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Talia can safely remain where she is, if for no other reason than that SHE is

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before it goes away, someone needs to edit Furst, Short, Welch and Giger into

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the "Bat-books", and not as much to the "alternate uses", or the greater DCU.

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borderline. She's lower, of course. Of those now on the list, probably the low

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One thing I liked after pruning was that, alphabetically, Joker was first : )

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It would seem to me that such would be duplicative of what's here already.

710:), so I don't think that's automatically relevant. JPV was a large part of 1545:, too. But not in the infobox as JPV/Azrael AKA Batman. He's Azrael, ally. 758:

I agree with your paring down the villains, but I think you went a little

2848: 2255:

take on how a MAJOR VILLAINS list should read, and I largely stick by it:

1548:(N.B. KGBeast gets four paragraphs to Azrael's 8. So there!) And now.... 253:

He is important now. If he loses importance later he can be removed then

1668:

There's already 2 rather lengthy lists. This shouldn't duplicate those.

803:

Sorry, decided that I'd better grab some food, as I hadn't eaten yet : )

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And of those, the Catwoman and Batmobile ones could follow the Robin...

1923:

My last comment is to re-link a wikipedia essay I've linked above, on

516:

everything else, starting with Robin. (In my opinion, of course! ;o))

2632:

In other words, is there any listing/grouping/whatever criteria that

2222:

person actually created the Batman, so he is a "unique" link)." - NO!

1695:

First off, we've got multiple Batman related navboxes at the moment:

1602:

So are we creating a double standard of subjectivity in this navbox?

1542: 1056:

Once again, if I've missed something, feel free to let me know : ) -

2465:: Robin/Nightwing and Batgirl/Oracle are the main ones. Catwoman (.. 1337:

Alfred, Gordon. Vicki, Talia. Fox, Montoya and Bullock. (Notability)

813:

Harley Quinn: All light and no heat (except for the Joker maybe : )

2914: 1503:) mentioned on the "Azrael" page (whereas in Robert Greenberger's 887:. The Riddler belongs nowhere else, whether he flip-flops or not. 2271:..... RIDDLER... Two-Face.. Scarecrow..... Ivy.... Freeze.. Ra's. 909:..?! I wouldn't have thought so, not really. An ally, yes. But a 2675:

in looking for references. (No fan-boy/girl blogs, for example).

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can't restrict based on timeliness, and it suffers from excess.

466:

I was thinking about this when I saw the addition and reverion.

380:

Here's are my arguments for keeping him in the villain section:

1764:

That may be neither here nor there though for this discussion.

1596:

If we don't, do we then create navboxes for these other uses?

283:

per my comments in the previous subsection of this talk page -

25: 865:

No food-worries, I got caught up in late-night movings, so...

656:

That said, I'll greatly agree with Markeer's comment below:

2568:, etc.) are so much MORE than just throwaway "misc." items. 1854:, But it would be nice if inclusion wasn't so subjective. - 1635:"Batman and the Outsiders". (A title which replaced the old 1840:

What's the criteria? Or better, where do we draw the line?

1837:

However, this is exactly the trouble. It's all subjective.

848:

Did I get everything? If not, feel free to clarify. : ) -

2341:

Stop inserting characters while this is under discussion.

1359:

Home, work, the GCPD (other work), and women in his life.

393:

of Batman (and related characters), it's a navbox of the

1580:

of characters have interacted with him over the years.

1001:

of Assassins, which are a whole other set of questions.)

2152:

being on the list as a comic title... but probably not.

1813:(As a side note, there is a slightly broader discusion 1771:

and the ones that have had multiple uses in the comics

2644:

are references, and some third party examples of what

2171:

says "I think keeping the list as short as possible,

1679:

suggests that we should wait on that count as well.)

2064:". A legacy-Batman. A "new" Batman. Clearly not the 720:

that's justification enough for Harley, I suppose..!

685:

Fair enough on the comics, then. I noticed that the

1682:As such, no Terry, no Harequin, and no Mr Freeze. 1643:-like had become a "Batman and -" team-up book.) 389:b) Beyond that, this is a navbox not just of the 358:Just thought I'd ask if these changes are okay. ( 1753:{{Robin (comics}}} (relatively recently deleted) 1685:Differing perspective? Feel free to share : ) - 1514:. He's mentioned (as is Dick) in the summary of 1273:page should precede BANE for ease of navigation 2396:No, I don't think we've reall gotten to far... 1490:a stand-in - as, for example, has been Alfred. 806:As for the villain pruning, Poison Ivy is the 592:We already have a link to the list, click on 8: 2173:while providing a link to the lengthier list 2060:Terry McGinnis is NOT Batman. He is "Batman 1775:the adaptations. Roughly I'd be looking at: 1452:were downgraded to his proper place...! :o) 2650:feel are the best/greatest/most well-known. 2364:As per above, is the discussion over, then? 2123:Tangent-time... I'm looking at an issue of 1214:These are clearly Batman-related articles. 102:Italics make text look slightly smaller. -- 2463:some characters need to be linked in TWICE 1605:Let's use the example of Mr. Freeze/Zero. 119:Recent Additions (Discuss Ongoing Changes) 217:Straw poll concerning inclusion of Damian 2409:don't hit lumping her into the villains. 1507:it's 1 paragraph in eight under Azrael). 2531:As far as teams go, it's generally not 820:re-added by the 'toon fanboys/girls : ) 2424:here), then the JSA would be included. 2046:template seems remarkably pointless - 696:another line, so it just seems easier. 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2787:Move Riddler to supporting characters 1371:No wonder he can never keep a woman. 1128:by such placement. (See also: Azr- ) 469:If we added them, it would likely be 7: 2489:- It's only in the last 10-15 years 2609:To reiterate, I'd like to see some 2089:specific to the animated series-es 1362:Seemed fairly straight-forward? - 24: 2473:may not be happy (for example)... 924:link winds up being tautological. 2077:infobox, but BB is mentioned in 29: 2420:Batman" or "Batman of Earth-1". 2177:at the end of the villains list 2412:The above also goes for Talia. 621:Jean-Paul, unlike the others, 344:Group Placement for Characters 65:readability. Opinions anyone? 1: 2127:magazine, with an article on 1535:Essential Batman Encyclopedia 1505:Essential Batman Encyclopedia 295:- There is already a link to 193:16:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC) 173:16:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC) 152:06:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC) 1713:1989-1997 Batman film series 1227:previous Batwoman, lately). 564:"Villains" and "Equipment". 338:08:06, 7 February 2009 (UTC) 304:15:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC) 297:Batman supporting characters 288:15:13, 22 October 2007 (UTC) 272:00:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC) 258:20:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC) 246:22:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC) 234:19:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC) 2667:Obviously we should follow 2640:for inclusion, but what we 2368:need to come back as notes. 1620:Batman:_The_Animated_Series 1292:extraneous "Villains," not 107:15:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC) 98:14:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC) 89:00:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC) 80:16:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 70:16:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 2959: 2087:- perhaps some characters 438:03:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC) 409:01:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC) 368:16:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC) 2943:18:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC) 2927:20:57, 14 June 2008 (UTC) 2825:Expand number of villains 2819:21:38, 13 June 2008 (UTC) 2801:20:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC) 2775:20:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC) 2593:00:45, 14 June 2008 (UTC) 2445:23:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC) 2388:18:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC) 321:21:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC) 212:03:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC) 137:16:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC) 2359:22:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC) 2331:02:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC) 2003:00:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC) 1987:14:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC) 1946:13:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC) 1859:04:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC) 1830:00:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC) 1690:00:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC) 1558:00:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC) 1481:00:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC) 1462:21:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC) 1440:19:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC) 1427:15:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC) 1403:21:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC) 1381:10:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC) 1367:20:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 1354:17:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 1309:15:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC) 1264:14:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC) 1238:19:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC) 1170:21:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC) 1156:19:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC) 1141:00:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC) 1061:07:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC) 967:06:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC) 853:02:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC) 799:02:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC) 789:02:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC) 749:00:02, 14 May 2008 (UTC) 673:19:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC) 574:15:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC) 544:13:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC) 526:02:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC) 492:22:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC) 461:18:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC) 433:sidesteps the issue.) - 2032:Firstly, I concur with 1702:Batman in popular media 1533:i.e. In the (official) 1084:of Azrael and Catwoman. 930:and JPV guested briefly 551:LIST OF BATMAN VILLAINS 2312:Notability Guidelines 1652:comics, and directly 1520:Batmen of All Nations 326:Put him back/keep him 42:of past discussions. 2471:Project: Girl Wonder 2402:A few other points: 2016:Here we go again...! 1420:This Sandbox version 772:logic, anyway. ;o) 429:, but it looks like 391:comic book character 18:Template talk:Batman 1570:Character inclusion 1194:League of Assassins 1188:League of Assassins 868:I don't see Ivy as 1641:DC Comics presents 706:for a while, too ( 618:As for characters: 2843:Doctor Phosphorus 2583: 2355: 2235:Blindambition2387 1998:stay "stable". - 1979:Blindambition2387 1379: 1085: 931: 175: 163:comment added by 54: 53: 48:current talk page 2950: 2569: 2550:Detective Comics 2528:and contestable. 2353: 2349: 2150:Brave & Bold 2086: 2080: 2045: 2039: 1962:hurting the box. 1750: 1744: 1739: 1735:Batman fan films 1733: 1728: 1722: 1717: 1711: 1706: 1700: 1375: 1206:(and maybe even 1083: 952:Detective Comics 929: 702:was the star of 506:Detective Comics 477:at most, though. 475:Detective comics 158: 33: 32: 26: 2958: 2957: 2953: 2952: 2951: 2949: 2948: 2947: 2827: 2789: 2376:Batman Strikes! 2357: 2347: 2343: 2321:complicated..! 2084: 2078: 2043: 2037: 1748: 1742: 1737: 1731: 1726: 1720: 1715: 1709: 1704: 1698: 1639:series, which, 1572: 1415: 1329:-ullock and al 1319: 1190: 536: 448: 427:Rogue's gallery 346: 219: 121: 62: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 2956: 2954: 2946: 2945: 2826: 2823: 2822: 2821: 2807: 2788: 2785: 2784: 2783: 2782: 2781: 2780: 2779: 2778: 2777: 2751: 2750: 2749: 2748: 2747: 2746: 2745: 2744: 2734: 2733: 2732: 2731: 2730: 2729: 2728: 2727: 2717: 2716: 2715: 2714: 2713: 2712: 2711: 2710: 2700: 2699: 2698: 2697: 2696: 2695: 2694: 2693: 2683: 2682: 2681: 2680: 2679: 2678: 2677: 2676: 2658: 2657: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2652: 2651: 2623: 2622: 2621: 2620: 2619: 2618: 2617: 2616: 2600: 2599: 2598: 2597: 2596: 2595: 2562:World's Finest 2546: 2529: 2525: 2518: 2514: 2513: 2512: 2505: 2498: 2483: 2474: 2459:in addition to 2450: 2449: 2448: 2447: 2433: 2432: 2431: 2427: 2426: 2425: 2421: 2413: 2410: 2400: 2397: 2391: 2390: 2372: 2369: 2365: 2351: 2342: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2336: 2335: 2334: 2333: 2306: 2305: 2304: 2303: 2302: 2301: 2284: 2283: 2282: 2281: 2280: 2279: 2272: 2258: 2257: 2256: 2246: 2232: 2231: 2230: 2226: 2225: 2224: 2223: 2216: 2213: 2202: 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276: 275: 274: 269:66.109.248.114 261: 260: 255:24.164.136.207 248: 243:66.109.248.114 239:delete Damian. 236: 218: 215: 200: 199: 198: 197: 196: 195: 165:24.164.136.207 120: 117: 116: 115: 114: 113: 112: 111: 110: 109: 61: 58: 56: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 2955: 2944: 2940: 2936: 2931: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2924: 2920: 2916: 2913: 2910: 2909:Ventriloquist 2907: 2904: 2903:Rupert Thorne 2901: 2898: 2895: 2892: 2889: 2886: 2883: 2880: 2877: 2874: 2871: 2868: 2865: 2862: 2859: 2856: 2853: 2850: 2847: 2844: 2841: 2838: 2835: 2832: 2824: 2820: 2816: 2812: 2808: 2805: 2804: 2803: 2802: 2798: 2794: 2786: 2776: 2773: 2769: 2765: 2764: 2759: 2758: 2757: 2756: 2755: 2754: 2753: 2752: 2742: 2741: 2740: 2739: 2738: 2737: 2736: 2735: 2725: 2724: 2723: 2722: 2721: 2720: 2719: 2718: 2708: 2707: 2706: 2705: 2704: 2703: 2702: 2701: 2691: 2690: 2689: 2688: 2687: 2686: 2685: 2684: 2674: 2670: 2666: 2665: 2664: 2663: 2662: 2661: 2660: 2659: 2649: 2648: 2643: 2639: 2635: 2631: 2630: 2629: 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2126: 2122: 2118: 2115: 2110: 2106: 2105: 2104: 2101: 2100: 2099: 2098: 2090: 2083: 2076: 2075:Batman Beyond 2072: 2067: 2063: 2062:of the Future 2059: 2056: 2053: 2049: 2042: 2035: 2031: 2030: 2029: 2026: 2025: 2024: 2023: 2015: 2014: 2013: 2012: 2011: 2010: 2009: 2004: 2001: 1997: 1996: 1991: 1990: 1989: 1988: 1984: 1980: 1970: 1969: 1968: 1967: 1960: 1959: 1958: 1957: 1956: 1947: 1944: 1939: 1938: 1937: 1936: 1935: 1934: 1926: 1922: 1921: 1920: 1919: 1918: 1917: 1908: 1906:sub-category) 1904: 1901: 1898: 1897: 1896: 1895: 1894: 1893: 1884: 1883: 1882: 1881: 1880: 1879: 1870: 1869: 1868: 1867: 1866: 1865: 1860: 1857: 1853: 1849: 1846: 1842: 1839: 1836: 1833: 1832: 1831: 1827: 1823: 1819: 1816: 1812: 1809: 1805:Ventriloquist 1804: 1801: 1799:Mister Freeze 1798: 1795: 1792: 1789: 1786: 1783: 1780: 1777: 1776: 1774: 1770: 1766: 1763: 1760: 1757: 1752: 1747: 1741: 1736: 1730: 1725: 1719: 1714: 1708: 1703: 1697: 1696: 1694: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1688: 1683: 1680: 1678: 1673: 1669: 1666: 1662: 1659: 1657: 1656: 1651: 1650: 1644: 1642: 1638: 1634: 1633: 1627: 1623: 1621: 1618:Looking over 1616: 1613: 1610: 1606: 1603: 1600: 1597: 1594: 1591: 1587: 1584: 1581: 1579: 1578: 1569: 1559: 1555: 1551: 1547: 1544: 1539: 1536: 1532: 1529: 1527: 1521: 1517: 1513: 1509: 1506: 1502: 1498: 1492: 1489: 1484: 1483: 1482: 1479: 1475: 1471: 1468: 1465: 1464: 1463: 1459: 1455: 1451: 1447: 1446: 1445: 1444: 1441: 1438: 1434: 1431: 1430: 1429: 1428: 1425: 1421: 1412: 1404: 1400: 1396: 1391: 1387: 1384: 1383: 1382: 1378: 1374: 1370: 1369: 1368: 1365: 1361: 1358: 1357: 1356: 1355: 1351: 1347: 1339: 1336: 1335: 1334: 1332: 1328: 1324: 1316: 1310: 1306: 1302: 1298: 1295: 1291: 1287: 1284: 1279: 1276: 1271: 1270: 1269: 1268: 1265: 1262: 1258: 1257: 1252: 1251: 1246: 1242: 1241: 1240: 1239: 1236: 1231: 1228: 1226: 1221: 1218: 1215: 1209: 1205: 1202: 1200: 1197: 1195: 1192: 1191: 1187: 1171: 1167: 1163: 1159: 1158: 1157: 1153: 1149: 1144: 1143: 1142: 1138: 1134: 1130: 1126: 1123: 1120: 1116: 1111: 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546: 545: 542: 533: 527: 523: 519: 515: 511: 507: 503: 499: 498: 497: 496: 493: 490: 486: 483: 479: 476: 472: 468: 465: 464: 463: 462: 458: 454: 446:Comics titles 445: 439: 436: 432: 428: 424: 420: 416: 415: 414: 413: 410: 407: 402: 401: 396: 392: 388: 384: 383: 379: 378: 373: 372: 371: 369: 365: 361: 356: 353: 349: 343: 339: 335: 331: 330:65.185.14.254 327: 324: 322: 318: 314: 311:- as above.-- 310: 307: 305: 302: 298: 294: 291: 289: 286: 282: 281:Delete Damian 279: 278: 273: 270: 265: 264: 263: 262: 259: 256: 252: 249: 247: 244: 241:- as above. 240: 237: 235: 232: 228: 224: 223:Delete Damian 221: 220: 216: 214: 213: 209: 205: 194: 191: 186: 182: 177: 176: 174: 170: 166: 162: 155: 154: 153: 150: 145: 141: 140: 139: 138: 135: 129: 125: 118: 108: 105: 101: 100: 99: 96: 92: 91: 90: 87: 83: 82: 81: 78: 74: 73: 72: 71: 68: 59: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 2911: 2905: 2899: 2893: 2887: 2881: 2875: 2869: 2863: 2861:Hugo Strange 2857: 2855:Harley Quinn 2851: 2845: 2839: 2833: 2828: 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