1239:
the history of
Georgian political entities: all kingdoms, principalities, and duchies that ruled parts of Georgia are listed, whereas you wouldn't find such lists in the template for German history for instance, although Germany was long divided in multiple states. I've seen that the template was the battlefield of an edit war recently, and so think it best to discuss changes here first. In any case, here's my proposal. I've reorganized the headers, kept the kingdoms and principalities, but removed the duchies, and made a few other changes. Also, for the sake of consistency with similar templates, I put the coat of arms as the image; furthermore, the ancient map now used is more of the whole Caucasus than of Georgia, and not even a name for the country can be read on it.--
1700:
2433:, which shows that entities with similar names can belong to totally different periods, which is not clear in the version in use now. Early medieval Abkhazian Kingdom and pre-modern Principality of Abkhazia have little in common. On the other hand, a header "Monarchy of Georgia" would make perfect sense. I also agree that there are too many Iberian and Colchian links. Still, the ancient Kingdom of Iberia and the medieval Principate are 2 different states, the first belongs to the same period, and I think heading, as Roman Georgia, while the second coexisted most with Arab rule... On the other hand, I don't think
1495:
of the
Antiquity in Georgia, and so should fall under this header rather than having its own. The next two can similarly be put, together with the more general article "Arab rule in Georgia", under a Medieval, or Early Medieval header, rather than all being headers. The Unified Kingdom is a kingdom, and can consequently be put, together with the dynasty, into a header about Georgian medieval kingdoms. Last, the article Georgia at the bottom is here to provide information about history of the country since 1991, and as such belongs to the Contemporary history header rather than in one of its own.
1625:. In that template, the parameters that have "data=" in them can be changed to a sub-heading that is more appropriate to the topic at hand. What those headers are to be, should be discussed peacefully with interested editors for the subject. Then, the logical way to list those new headers would be in chronological order - this would then add depiction to the reader of how events occurred, and place Georgian History into a "timeline" frame. If some editors are in doubt, and no mutual decision can be reached; then perhaps everyone should be looking at similar templates; for example
2489:, but it looked rather heavy to me; maybe you'll think otherwise. Anyway, it allowed me to put all those entities in chronological order (roughly, as many are overlapping), and they are still in that order on this version here. I'm still not sure about removing the principalities now; I definitely put on my to-do list to write an article about Georgian history from 1460 to the Russian annexation, when political fragmentation was at its worst, which would conveniently replace all those links. Meanwhile, we could leave them or not, depending on what the consensus seems to be...--
802:
1399:
the middle of the
Antiquity section, I thought it referred to some campaign of the time, whereas it actually is a list of all wars fought in Georgia, same for kings. I tried to reach some compromise with you by taking into account your opinion on the image or the inclusion of the 2008 war, but your way of reverting any change even after making no argument against them during a discussion is rather counter-productive. You cannot justify statements like "The current one will stay as it is now" with just a statement of your opinion.--
861:
571:
1301:
the united
Kingdom into a few kingdoms and principalties, no further. You also haven't taken into account my argument about the fragmentation of Germany (or Italy, for a smaller quantity of fragmented states involved). Your point about 2008 war may be right; in any case, the list of wars is still present in my version, only at the bottom, marked as a list, to make it more clear and consistent with other country history templates. I also support most of the changes
99:
2863:
2140:
148:
3492:. Articles have their current names for a reason, and this template is not the place to change them: if you think some of those names are wrong, go ahead to those articles' pages and make your point there - if you are right, it will be much more productive, and more people will have a chance to discuss it. Meanwhile, names in the templates should be those of the articles they link to, unless they're too long or there's ambiguity. Also, per
130:
2661:"Roman Colchis and Iberia" would be more correct. There seems to be a gap with nothing at all about the period of Turkish or Persian rule, and the 19th-century section is a bit empty (but I don't know what articles exist that could be added). Dates (if they are known with some accuracy) could be placed so that they are visible as mouseovers rather than having them clutter the visible infobox text.
3128:
2386:
1193:
726:
158:
518:
425:
3313:
problems. Refusing to discuss particular proposals because of one of them is rather disruptive. If it is the inclusion of all monarchies that matters to you, and you actually agree with the rest, you should say so: then we can already improve the template by implementing those changes and leave the principalities and duchies in it for now, as removing them is not yet consensual.--
236:
218:
3384:, similar to ones existing for Germany and Italy, nation-states with a similar history of fragmentation. It lists major and minor entities (it's still incomplete, feel free to contribute to it), and I've added a link to it at the bottom of this template, as for kings, wars, etc. I think it should help bring about consensus to delete minor entities from this template.--
246:
3562:: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well. An example is repeated deletion of reliable sources posted by other editors.
490:
4063:
formats etc. Why do you reject individualism? or what is wrong with the
Chinese or Iranian history templates that are not "standard templates" as you want them to be? Every country has its own unique qualities and templates can be changed if it is orineted on better knowledge and better quality of things here. Is it that hard to understand?
1575:
have individual articles on each period of
Georgia's history and then list them in the template, eliminating most of other relatively "minor" entries from it. I think we should first agree on the periodization of Georgia's history (not a difficult task, imo) and then discuss the entries which best illustrate each of these periods. --
353:
2744:
Georgian history? I also think we should combine the 19th and 20th centuries. Small sections and they naturally go together (Russia and all that). I've edited the template here to make the entry titles close to the titles of the articles they lead to. Changes to specific article names should be discussed at those articles.
3496:, names in titles and links should not be written with a capital at the beginning: it is culture, dynasty, rule. I'm sorry to have to repeat that once again, and hope that for once, you will read those arguments, and not blindly revert any corrections made to your favorite template before thinking. Thanks!--
3312:
So because you don't like one aspect of my proposal (taking some links out), you cannot discuss the other changes I suggest (headers, chronology, etc, etc)?? I don't ask for support, I ask that the talk page be a place to discuss improving the templates, by proposing rational solutions to a series of
1994:
I regret that
GeorgianJorjadze still refuses to provide concrete reasons why the style of the template as it is now satisfactory, address my criticisms and suggestions. I am obviously not the only editor here who thinks some clean-up is needed. I think he did a great job in the past adding data into
1708:
Then, I would also suggest a change in image. The current historical map used is not precise enough, shows the whole
Caucasus area, and given the size of the thumbnail, not even the name "Iberia" can be read. We could switch, as in many similar templates, to the coat of arms of Georgia, or simply use
767:
These are the most important articles. The ones I removed are not essential and some are a couple of sentences. It does not have to be a list of all
Georgian history articles, but a survey of those the most important. I deleted the odd-looking map on top because seal is what I see being used on other
384:
This template has been fully protected for a month. A fully protected page can be edited only by administrators. The protection may be decreased or increased depending upon the resolution or non-resolution of the issues due to which protection was initially applied. Modifications to a fully protected
3355:
As in the last discussion, GeorgianJorjadze actually objected to only one aspect of the proposed changes, and did not answer other problems where consensus between all other participants in the discussion had been achieved, I implemented the uncontested changes. There remains only one question to be
2743:
Na, the biggest improvement is that the headers are actually headers! The current one has these weird streaks of what are apparently headers but obviously aren't, like "Georgia" on the very bottom. Why don't we divide the medieval section up somehow? Or remove some? Are all those entries critical to
2559:
Feel free to wander away, and thanks again for your benevolent help! Last question only, if you allow me: do you think we can consider there is consensus in favor of those changes we discussed here (as both you, me, and
Chipmunkdavis seem to support them), and consequently should I implement my last
1524:
Well, reverting not only my last changes, but those you had agreed to, and your own ones, all the way back to March, and asking an admin to protect the page against my edit warring was not exactly what I had in mind when I asked if we could work towards compromise. I won't touch it again until other
1509:
That sums up all the changes that I feel are strictly necessary for the template. I still feel a change of image and the inclusion of dates could help, but will defer to the better judgment of other editors. Rather than reverting those changes in their entirety again, and then re-adding some of them
1494:
1. the header/data repartition. There just are too many headers in your version for clarity. From the top, Colchians and Iberians are given header status, whereas they should be considered as data falling under the "Ancient Georgians" header. Similarly, Roman Georgia is an article about some aspects
1398:
Please explain why you think are "too confusing", or which of them are. I wouldn't think adding dates is confusing, on the contrary, although you can argue against it for making the template too heavy. The headers as they stood were in my opinion rather confusing: when I first saw "Georgian Wars" in
1300:
The duchies were never states, even in the 17th-18th centuries; they gained almost independence only during periods of civilian strife, foreign invasions, or weak royal power, but they were always, even only theoreticaly, subordinate to royal authority. The fragmentation you are referring too was of
3673:
is removing all those changes what I've done for making the template more functional. He/She is engaged in edit war and reverts all my changes back and makes the template back to the quasi mode as it was back then. Frietjes, please explain yourself and first discuss and suggest what is your problem
3244:
Indeed, sorry, I was really sure I had seen them there. Why not put them there anyway? Per your logic, we could take out the principalities from here, but not the duchies. Putting both on the specific template would keep this one from being clogged by all those minor articles. Any other comments on
3215:
Please read the discussion and understand the arguments in favor of some changes in this template. If you oppose any of them, it would be more constructive to say which ones and why than to propose a new template that doesn't make many substantial changes, and even goes away from compromise in some
2695:
should be discussed there rather than here: I tend to think that this title is convenient, but we can debate it. Regarding Persian/Turkish domination period, actually, a large part of the Monarchy articles refer to the kingdoms that existed under Turkish or Persian suzerainty after the breakdown of
1559:
All of you please resolve matters peacefully and discuss before, not after making certain changes. some of the ideas voiced here are not to be disregarded. you are trying to improve the template after all, no need to quarrel about it because unwanted results are not that hard to undo, if necessary.
1270:
Well, I think the problem is that it shows both major states and minor entities (saeristavebi were no states, even if they are listed here), and only 1 event (the 1921 invasion). I think the 2008 war might deserve inclusion, and so added it. Do you object to the new headers/data repartition, to the
4062:
No one says here that my updated template is superior in comparison to others. Every country's history is different and unique in their own way and so is Georgian history. Wiki is for contributing to the knowledge and awareness and there are many exceptions on wiki with the templates, its colours,
4026:
the fact that two entirely different templates need to be updated to the standard is not a reason to change this template to use a non-standard format. discussions for changing other templates would happen on the talk pages of the other templates, which is exactly what is happening. if you wish to
3274:
the rest of the problems I listed right here in my 17:40 comment. If you take the pain to read them, compare in detail your proposal to my last one just above, read comments by other users, maybe follow the links to the articles to check, for instance, the chronology of each one, you'll understand
2660:
This proposed template is MUCH better than the existing one (which seems to have ignored the standards worked out on other country history templates). For the 20th-century I think there needs to be mention of Abkhazia and probably also Adjaria. "Roman Georgia" is the wrong title for that article -
2470:
The new template definitely looks much better than the current one; it at least has a header system which makes sense. I think topics should probably go near the top though, as they are overview articles of the whole history. Would adding dates be useful? Currently there's just and endless list of
1743:
Hmm quite a lot of areas being covered at once; which could confuse or hinder matters into a complex state of affairs. May I suggest you split things up slightly? Work on finding a mutual decision on the context of headings and what should be listed within them first. Then when an agreement has
1498:
2. Chronological problems. From the top. The bronze age cultures (the term Age, used in your version, is not in the linked articles, and thus less adequate) are not in the right order, and Shulaveri is a Neolithic, so Prehistoric culture rather than Bronze Age. Similarly, in the lists of kingdoms,
1334:
I've removed the duchies as you suggested. The image should stay as it shows the region well, the same kind of image is on the Greek history template where not only Greece is shown but the entire region where it actually is. So I don't support removing the current image it has now. Also this image
1285:
I don't support the new template as you created. As for the duchies I don't see any problem with that as well, because they presented a duchy after the Georgian kingdom's fragmentation. As for 2008 war it is included in the list of Georgian wars. As Georgia has seen as a lot of battles and wars it
1238:
and couldn't help but notice that it is in a rather unsatisfactory condition compared to similar ones for other countries. First, the repartition between headers and simple data entries is rather confusing: less headers are needed. Second, I think that as it stands, it gives too much prominence to
2700:; when it's finished, I'll try to work on this period of Georgian history. As for the 19th century, I think the current article is pretty good, and don't see any one more specific that could be useful here (maybe an article about the annexation itself could be written, but it doesn't exist yet).--
2428:
Thanks for the input to the discussion! This is a delicate matter, and I think your ideas can help. However, not all of them seem practical, and I'd rather keep a chronological framework. At one point yesterday, I put forward a version with dates attached (which I don't insist on, as it is rather
1933:
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with your view on who started the edit war. If any user disagrees with content whether it be on an article or template - the correct procedure is to start a discussion about it on the talk page; more so in the cases of templates. By altering the template into a
1574:
I don't quite get what the dispute is about, but I know both editors involved in it are very prolific and knowledgeable. As not a big fan of templates and infoboxes, I think we should not waste our time and energy on such disputes, but rather focus on developing articles. I'd personally prefer to
1458:
no, under a header "Lists" at the bottom of the template. See similar practice in many other country history templates, from Germany to Kazakhstan with a final header "Topics" for general historical subjects not restricted to a particular period. The problem with your reverts is that it's hard to
2455:
I should also say that yesterday, GeorgianJorjadze had agreed to the removal of duchies from the templates, as not significant enough. Here is a new proposition integrating those of your suggestions which I think are best to implement, together with my own rectifications of chronology. The main
1349:
Thanks! OK for the image, I still think that coat of arms would be better, but I'll wait for other users to give their opinion about it. As you voiced no objections to other proposed changes, I will implement them already (headers reorganized, dates added). I removed the 2008 war following your
3711:
is being reverted back by user Frietjes. The format is way better than it was in the past. And is this only about Georgian history template? There are many history templates like that e.g. History of Japan, Iran, China etc. My updated version is perfectly functional with better look and better
1902:
Dear Wesley, user Susuman came and changed the template upside down without any consensus reached and now he complains about the changes I've made. I've made these changes because he clearly edit warred with me when the consensus was not reached about the template look. As for my position, the
2583:
I don't think 3 people showing favour is quite a consensus, only a minority agreement. There are others involved too, which could still tilt the "consensus" balance the other way. And even if a consensus has been reached, still doesn't mean the agreed version is set in stone. Knowledge and
2729:
Yes, my date as mouseovers idea doesn't workΒ :( - I think that the text that appears as a mousover always has to be the actual article title. The long list of entities in the Medieval Monarchy section seems confusing because taken together they cover a substantial time period, with sometimes
1681:
1. Better repartition of articles into headings. The template as it stands has too many headings. I suggest to restrict them to the following chronological periods: Prehistory, Bronze Age, Classical Antiquity, Early Middle Ages, Medieval Kingdoms (as the kingdom articles are as of now where
1744:
reached on that, you can at least incorporate them into the template so that it doesn't disrupt things too long. Then you can look into the image side of things afterwards. Dispute over which images should and shouldn't be used aren't overly important at this stage of the discussion.
1847:, came and changed the template into the ridiculous manner. The current version looks well, is well listed with reasonable and historical image above whichi also should stay as it is. User Susuman came and changed everything around without consensus. I don't support his changes at all.
3983:
the fact that two entirely different templates need to be updated to the standard is not a reason to change this template to use a non-standard format. discussions for changing other templates would happen on the talk pages of the other templates, which is exactly what is happening.
397:
template on the talk page will draw the attention of administrators for implementing uncontroversial changes. Please don't forget to put this template as otherwise, administrators might not be able to keep a track of the issue. Contact me for any further administrative assistance.
3297:
As I've said I don't support your version at all. You took everything out from the template so you don't have my support in this case. Kingdoms, Principalities and Duchies should be present into the template. Only in this case I may agree with your version of the template.
3452:
Last, removing the list of states without any reason given or prior discussion of it on this talk page just doesn't help. Please join the discussion here about the way this list can help dealing with the large number of minor states currently listed instead of blindly
3487:
Well, I think you're wrong to think of the template in terms of "I like it or not". You need to spend more time reading the arguments put forward by other users instead of only relying on your personal taste: even though you put a lot of input in this template, you
2730:
overlapping time-periods for each entity and sometimes not. So maybe a century date should be added opposite each entity. The biggest improvement of this template over the current one is the removal of titles like "Prehistoric Georgia" and "Bronze Age of Georgia".
2584:
everything within it (articles/templates) are known to go through periods of evolution. So even if an agreement is reached now, doesn't mean a reopening of future discussion over the "agreed version" cannot be done. If everyone is OK with the new format, then be
3424:
GeorgianJorjadze seems to have accepted most of those changes, but has made some of his own without discussing it here first. I reverted most of it, as they haven't been discussed and contradict both style guidelines and consensus. To address them one by one:
3406:. I nominated the first for deletion, as it is much less used, on pages where the other's also present, and is a big sidebar that just cannot be used on pages where for instance, this template here is also present. You're welcome to all join discussion at
1413:
I should also remark, as we are talking about confusing presentations, that adding the dates allowed me to realize that many entries in the template were right out of chronological order, especially in the 1st sections, and to rectify it. How is that more
3259:
Principalities are very important so putting them out from the history template would be wrong, as well as duchies which had their role in history as well. What do you mean in the rest? I think the most of the changes are well fit for everyone, isn't it?
1677:
Thanks for the opportunity to have a serene discussion about that! I apologize if I implemented my changes in too bold a way, and am keen to discuss each of them. Here are, in my opinion, those which are necessary to make the template coherent with the
3692:
I reverted the recent undiscussed style changes. Please feel free to discuss here, but it appears these changes are not inline with the format used by other History of Country templates, so any deviations should really be discussed first. Thanks!
2714:
I don't know any way a mouseover date system would work, and it wouldn't fix the appearance of the template at any rate. We could just include dates in the headers. We already have 19th and 20th century, bracketed dates on the others wouldn't hurt.
1943:
indicates that the previous version should be restored until an overall decision is reached by everyone involved. Failure to comply with Knowledge policies can result in matters being escalated further, and possible sanctions being imposed on your
1640:
If that works, and a resolution is reached; then everyone is happy and we can all get back to working on articles. However, if no overall decision is reached after all options have been looked into; then the final options would be to either seek a
3472:
The template now I like it or not seems to be somehow normal. Colchis, Iberia and Diauhi should be mentioned as Kingdoms as they were so I've edited them. Though I am thinking about Roman Rule in place of Roman Georgia. Or Roman Georgia is better?
3360:
exists for them, it clogs the template here), I think they should be removed. I should mention that at the beginning of this dispute, GeorgianJorjadze obviously agreed with the removal of duchies from the list, as he made the change himself (see
4031:, then try to answer the following questions (1) why does this template need to use a format which is different than the format used by most other countries? (2) if the format you have propose is superior, why have you not proposed a change to
2696:
the medieval united kingdom , so there is not so much of a gap. I agree however that we need a more general article about the period (1460-1800) and/or about Turkish and Persian rule. I am writing now a similiar article about the period of
3536:
the following message on his talk page. Given that he regularly blanks it, I figured I'd better copy it here, as it relates to this template and the changes he keeps making to it, and he can as well answer the issues on this talk page:
2515:
Looks to me as though cooperation has finally restored - well done! Do you still require me to observe in the background, or am I free to wander back into my hectic hole of organising travel to my next London 2012 volunteer event?
3600:
more generally, using for the link the name of the article linked is the most obvious policy, unless reasons specific to the template can be given. If you think articles are wrongly named, discuss possible changes there, not on the
2632:
Good, good. On that note then, I shall wish you all good luck in resolving this dispute. And just in case, I'll keep this talk page on my watchlist for one month, and invisibly check up on proceedings (commenting if necessary).
2776:
Much smoother. If it was possible to have them separated by dots horizontally it would make the template more compact, but that's not that important at the moment. Can you think of anything else major missing or that needs to be
2456:
problem I see with it is the number of entries under the "Monarchy" heading; anyway, we still lack a general article about this period, so I fear it cannot be avoided as of now. Also, maybe just take the principalities out too?--
1938:
personal liking without discussing it first, is the start of a provoked edit war. You have been on Knowledge long enough now to know the ins and outs of edit warring, and have received many such cautions/warnings about that.
3178:
There's progress on the header/data repartition, but still too many headers, including some that should not be (like "Georgia" at the end). We explained already on this talk page how this is not consistent with the manuals of
3365:
at my suggestion. His position seems to have changed, but with no constructive approach to the debate. I hope we can reach consensus on this point too, if every interested user comes forward with possible, reasoned,
1459:
know what you are objecting to, and each revert brings a new reason. Let me try to implement a template without dates this time, but with the necessary rectifications for clarity and general chronological order.--
3859:
But they are almost the same. they have same structure and colours. But you seem to have problems with only Georgian history template or what? I'll change the template to that style and would you like it then?
2674:
Thanks for your comments! Nice idea about the dates, I'll look that up. When you say there needs to be mention of Abkhazia, and possibly Adjara, in the 20th century, what are you referring to? Adding a link to
3449:
Hereti is a kingdom contemporary to the Kingdom of Abkhazia (9th-10th century), so, if this minor state belongs here at all, it should be with the other links of that period (K. of Abkhazia, Tao-Klarjeti...).
3174:
Hi, and thanks for joining back the discussion. However, I have to confess that I don't find that your new proposed template solves the problems that multiple users have agreed exist in the current version.
1319:
As an aside, what about adding dates to most states and periods linked, as practiced in many other country templates? Would it be too heavy, or useful to understand better to which period each link belongs?
3911:? Why don't you edit those templates then? I have nothing about those two and if you ask me they look good and needs no change but why don't you edit them but only edit out only Georgian one in this case?
1825:
The version in use now is the one that was in use before the dispute: GeorgianJorjadze was following the guidelines in his last revert. Whatever my dispute with him may be, he acted right there, I guess.--
3583:
You were the one who asked for discussion to be opened on the template's talk page. Now, you are the one who makes changes without any discussion, and doesn't answer our requests to explain your edits.
1793:
Would it also be possible for someone to highlight to me, which version of the template was in use before this dispute kicked-off; so that the template can be restored to that version per guidelines at
3764:
since you weren't able to read my entire list, here are the other reasons from my comment: harder to read, uses non-standard colouring, uses deprecated html, doesn't use LUA. sorry if you feel you
39:
3665:
Hello. I've just updated the template to a better one with better functionality with collapsible lists, light colours which looks functional and way more better than it was in the past. But user
2784:
I wouldn't know how to do those dot lines... As for me, I'm satisfied with the changes we covered in this discussion. If no opposition is voiced, I guess I can replace the template soon enough.--
3356:
solved: should all minor states or sub-state entities in the medieval history of Georgia be linked in this template (principalities and duchies)? For reasons I've explained above (a specific
3327:
GeorgianJorjadze, if you don't mention reasons, you don't provide anything to discuss. Effectively your comment is simple stonewalling. Would you care to explain the "why" behind your ideas?
1947:
On a different note, I have review the template in question, and have found many sections that are duplicating themselves, and could do with a general tidy-up to rectify those issues.
4005:
the fact that no one is fixing those two templates means that there is NOTHING wrong with those templates and they are working fine and same should be for Georgian template and the
3156:
2414:
1221:
754:
4187:
1682:
information about this period can be found), 19th century and 20th century. An additional Topics heading would cover subjects that span multiple periods (lists of wars, kings...)
1506:
remarked, too many redundancies of "Georgian" where it is unnecessary. Similar templates don't use the country name that much and often prefer world history periods for headers.
1370:
I reverted your changes about the headers and years as it was too much of confusing. The current one will stay as it is now. I only supported your thought about the duchies.
1510:
in your own way, I would appreciate if you could work compromise positions from them, assuming you still are opposed to it. Thanks for organising the topics header anyway!--
1305:
made (and you reverted without explanation) to remove many unnecessary repetitions in the template. What about my points about the image, and the clarification of headers?--
3182:
Chronological order is not respected inside the headers, and entries are still classified in the wrong section (Roman Georgia in Early Medieval, Shulaveri in Bronze Age...)
4252:
1720:. We still lack a general article about the fragmentation period between 1460 and 1798, which makes it necessary still to have links to the different kingdoms of the time.
1712:
Finally, I think the template will only be as good as the articles that it links to. Our objective could be to develop general articles about periods in Georgian history.
4257:
3620:
Please take all that into account, and revert your last changes, or at least don't revert the next editor who will do so. Otherwise, I'll be forced to notify admins per
1499:
Abkhazia and Hereti are much older than the others, and still come near the end in your version; I've restored chronological order there, as well as for principalities.
3712:
functionality. I am not interested waging into edit wars and I am for here to contribute with others as well but my updated version has nothing to be critical about.
1444:
The dates are not necessary. But, what do you suggest for Georgian Kings and Wars? What is the best place to put these two? On bottom of contemporary Georgia header?
2758:
Those changes in entry titles indeed make sense. I've gone ahead and removed the less significant medieval monarchies from the template here; they are all listed in
4262:
1995:
the template, but that it needs to be organized in a better way. I think reaching an agreement over that is more relevant here than discussions of my nationality.--
3446:
Roman Georgia, on the other hand, is very classical, so belongs in this header rather than forming one of its own (which would also go against style guidelines).
2560:
template proposed, or should I wait for a counter-proposal by GeorgianJorjadze or someone else? I don't master the delicate etiquette of editing perfectly yet.--
3457:
Shortly: effecting changes, especially when they involve removing information, without explaining or discussing them, is nothing else than disruptive editing.--
1618:
cycle has obviously not worked here; so with that in mind the template should be reverted back to the version that was in use before this dispute took place.
1596:
In order for the dispute to be resolved peacefully, swiftly, and amicably; a few things need to be implemented and adhered to as much as possible. Firstly,
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as close as possible. not sure where you came to the conclusion that I "have problems with only Georgian history template". have you seen my edit history?
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3. Take out of the template the less notable political entities currently listed, such as duchies, and maybe principalities. They are all listed already in
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various entities, especially in Medieval Monarchy, which don't appear to be in any sort of order. (Taking the principalities would help solve this too.)
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Thanks! For the topics, I put them at the bottom as it seems current practice in similar country history templates. I tried putting dates in earlier
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ok, but still problems subsist, that I think my last version does a better job at addressing, and that your repeated reverts keep in the template.
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let's see, it's about 4000 bytes larger, harder to read, uses non-standard colouring, uses deprecated html, doesn't use LUA. Indeed, other than
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article? Each of those could potentially be controversial, and there seems to be consensus to not list any particular war, but simply have the
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Dynasty, etc.). If the articles are named this way, there is a reason for it, and there is no use trying to change the style in the templates.
1610:) shouldn't have reverted the template before a resolution had been reached. This isn't productive; and goes against the guidance set out at
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in this template makes no sense. This is a mythological, not an historical figure, as the article itself makes clear. Knowledge doesn't list
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Re-edited some points there. Principalities and duchies should be presented as the duchies are not included in Georgian statehood template.
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If a solution can be found on those areas first, then perhaps we will be heading in the right direction to resolving this issue swiftly.
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I've had a look at the template in its current status, and have noticed a few sections that could do with a review, and possible tidy-up.
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Totally agree with that. Let's not talk about the image for now and focus on the style clean-up (points 1 to 4 in my comment above).--
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GeorgianJorjadze, may I remind you to stay civil in this discussion, and avoid making personal attacks towards other users, such as
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change of image, or only to the removal of duchies? For the 1st two, I think both readability and consistency favor the new one. --
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Good. I'll wait for other opinions then before going ahead, and will of course always be ready to reopen discussion after that. --
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4. Avoid unnecessary repetitions, especially of the word "Georgian", as it is obvious articles listed here are related to Georgia.
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Would it not be plausible for these to be grouped under a simple "Abkhazia" header, rather than being scattered under several?
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Would it not be plausible for these to be grouped under a simple "Colchian" header, rather than being scattered under several?
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if you feel it that is the superior design? or do you think that Georgia is the same as China and Iran, but not the same as
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and make the changes. If someone comes along and reverts those changes, then re-engage in discussion to find new solutions.
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Would it not be plausible for these to be grouped under a simple "Iberian" header, rather than being scattered under several?
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Greetings. This template is well fit and it should stay as it is now. This is the template which was before user Susuman
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3197:. Here, a single link to Colchis and Iberia is enough; from those articles, you can go further to the peoples' article.
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the ragged right problem can cause the prose text to overlap the sidebar if the boxes are stacked in the wrong order
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repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits;
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when the box is stacked near another infobox or sidebar of a different width, this causes a ragged right appearance
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Answer my question please. Why is it that you change Georgian template but Iranian and Chinese templates don't?
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page can be proposed on this talk page. Administrators can make changes to the protected article reflecting
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I support the current template as it shows the major historical states and events in the Georgian history.
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which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. β
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Redundancy between this template and others: all the kingdoms, principalities and duchies are already on
772:, did not like it an remove it but the page was not blocked like they block it for me. How is this fair?
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etc.Β ? Aren't they with non-standard colouring, aren't they harder to read? or how many bytes are they?
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There should be a similar template about Abkhazia, covering the evolution of Abkhazian statedom from
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Unnecessary use of "Georgian" in a template where it is obvious that we are talking about Georgia.
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Secondly, there is a standardized template in force for subjects like this, which can be found at
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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a narrow width causes problems with the show/hide links overlapping the section title text (see
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template if possible. It's too bad that template doesn't support collapsible groups. Thanks!
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and consequently not all are needed here. Similarly, we already list Colchians and Iberians at
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another historical map, where the name of Georgia would be visible, such as the one I put here.
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editors can come have a look at the situation. Anyone interested can see my last proposal at
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The current version looks pretty good. We should try to keep with the style used by the
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Roman Georgia is the article title. Without good reason, we should probably follow that.
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1529:, read my arguments in its favor right above here, and share their opinion. Thanks!--
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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Template:History_of_Georgia&oldid=491463391
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4139:. Just added α‘αα₯αα αααααα‘ αα‘α’αα αα in small letters which fit well with the template.
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Anyway, I'll be glad if we can discuss those points and reach consensus about it.--
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1875:. Comments like that are personal attacks, and can be sanctioned with a block.
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4000 bytes larger? And that is your reason to revert back my updated template?
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Would it not be better to group them all together under "Monarchy of Georgia"?
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Also, on a related note, I discovered the existence of 2 similar templates at
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ways (you had agreed that duchies were not needed, and here they are anew!).--
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anyway, and I changed the series to History of Georgia. What do you think?--
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3624:. One admin that I asked for advice already advised this course of action (
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I am asking you again. Does Chinese and Iranian history templates match
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I believe we should use the default sidebar width for multiple reasons
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the official manual of style explains the use of lower/upper-case at
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current template should stay as it is now. Everything's in well fit.
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I would support the current or this new template here I've edited.
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repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits.
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with the template I've made and why do you engage into edit war?
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is a Neolithic culture, so belongs to Prehistory, not Bronze Age.
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ended in the 8th cent. BC at the latest, so does not belong to
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why your template version may not be well fit for everyone...--
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Yes, why were my edits reverted without any sort of rationale?
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guidelines on colour contrast. they should be fixed as well.
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the template, but it appears the standard styling provided by
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Knowledge:Templates_for_discussion#Template:Georgian_statehood
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Template talk:History of China#Sidebar with infoboxes version
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Template talk:History of Iran#Sidebar with infoboxes version
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To quote that policy, in case you are just ignorant of it:
1873:"Susuman who claims as he's French (which I highly doubt)"
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I've come to this template through my work on the article
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User talk:Drmies#Problem with Template:History of Georgia
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so all articles can benefit from this superior design?
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3843:. it appears others have noticed the deprecated code.
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GeorgianJorjadze, your last edits to the template are
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2. Inside the headings, respect chronological order.
175:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
2441:is much more detailed and present the Colchians.--
768:country pages and its more official. This person,
3928:Do Chinese and Iranian history templates match
2063:Royal Principalities (Principality of Abkhazia)
4113:What did you change other than the colours? β
2060:Unified Georgian Kingdom (Kingdom of Abkhazia)
1716:is a very good one. I'm writing one now about
4178:Rationale for using the default sidebar width
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2070:There are several sections covering Royalty:
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8:
3647:There is a move discussion in progress on
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1335:fits well the for the historical reasons.
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4253:Template-Class Georgia (country) articles
2022:There are 3 sections covering Colchians:
770:http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Tanllocittis
109:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
4258:NA-importance Georgia (country) articles
2056:There are 2 sections covering Abkhazia:
2039:There are 3 sections covering Iberians:
545:This is what tempalte should look like.
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193:Knowledge:WikiProject Georgia (country)
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4263:WikiProject Georgia (country) articles
1350:argument. Feel free to discuss it...--
196:Template:WikiProject Georgia (country)
3733:, what is better about your version?
3551:A disruptive editor is an editor who:
812:for this alteration before using the
462:template between a <noinclude: -->
257:This template is within the scope of
169:This template is within the scope of
98:
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7:
3382:List of historical states of Georgia
2032:Ancient Georgia (Kingdom of Colchis)
3938:? then why not request a change to
2046:Ancient Georgia (Kingdom of Iberia)
1286:should be included into that page.
834:Proposal for improving the template
115:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
3380:To move forward, I have created a
3074:Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic
2334:Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic
1140:Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic
14:
3351:Changes that remain to be debated
3043:Georgia within the Russian Empire
2308:Georgia within the Russian Empire
1714:Georgia within the Russian Empire
3792:And what about these templates?
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2993:Royal Principalities and Duchies
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40:Click here to start a new topic.
4268:Template-Class history articles
3587:To give you concrete examples:
2437:deserve a link, as the article
4273:NA-importance history articles
4215:True. Thanks for explanation.
4135:I've improved the template to
3055:Democratic Republic of Georgia
2324:Democratic Republic of Georgia
1119:Democratic Republic of Georgia
1:
3404:Template:Statehood of Georgia
1703:Suggestion for a better image
1627:Template:History of Australia
1156:Independent Georgia from 1991
1103:Georgia Under Imperial Russia
1041:Kingdom of Kartli and Kakheti
661:Georgia Under Imperial Russia
621:Kingdom of Kartli and Kakheti
277:Knowledge:WikiProject History
271:and see a list of open tasks.
187:and see a list of open tasks.
172:WikiProject Georgia (country)
37:Put new text under old text.
4278:WikiProject History articles
3817:yes they are, and they fail
3707:I just don't understand why
3656:17:58, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
1124:Red Army invasion of Georgia
828:15:22, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
793:05:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
696:1978 Georgian Demonstrations
689:1956 Georgian Demonstrations
675:Red Army Invasion of Georgia
503:21:11, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
483:07:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
411:06:08, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
330:Template:History_of_Abkhazia
280:Template:WikiProject History
25:History of Georgia (country)
3643:Move discussion in progress
3400:Template:Georgian statehood
3187:Template:Georgian statehood
2760:Template:Georgian statehood
1690:Template:Georgian statehood
1635:Template:History of Ireland
539:to reactivate your request.
527:has been answered. Set the
473:. Grammatically incorrect?
446:to reactivate your request.
434:has been answered. Set the
323:09:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
45:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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3962:18:51, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
3924:18:11, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
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3877:no, they should all match
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3853:17:24, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
3831:17:20, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
3813:17:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
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3743:15:05, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
3725:12:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
3703:00:30, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
3687:23:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
3614:Template:History of Greece
3191:Template:Ancient Georgians
3062:Soviet Invasion of Georgia
2272:Unified Kingdom of Georgia
1631:Template:History of France
1003:Georgian Medieval Kingdoms
358:
342:18:20, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
199:Georgia (country) articles
4238:17:29, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
4220:17:06, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
4210:16:30, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
3798:Template:History of China
3778:is the accepted version.
2026:Bronze Age (Colchian Age)
1077:Principality of Samegrelo
479:See terms and conditions.
229:
141:
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75:Be welcoming to newcomers
3794:Template:History of Iran
3638:11:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
3520:22:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
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3483:20:50, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
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2955:Bagrationi Royal Dynasty
2833:15:56, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
2794:13:04, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
2772:15:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
2754:14:52, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
2739:14:43, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
2725:14:38, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
2710:07:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
2691:linked in the template.
2670:01:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
2287:Kingdom of Kartl-Kakheti
2077:Bagrationi Royal Dynasty
1087:Principality of Meskheti
1082:Principality of Abkhazia
1026:Unified Georgian Kingdom
614:Unified Georgian Kingdom
312:Principality of Abkhazia
164:Georgia (country) portal
3616:, and for good reasons.
3430:Shulaveri-Shomu culture
2656:14:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
2628:14:31, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
2611:14:10, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
2570:13:53, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
2539:13:22, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
2499:13:17, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
2481:12:56, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
2466:12:30, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
2451:12:11, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
2267:Kingdom of Tao Klarjeti
2155:Shulaveri-Shomu culture
2113:11:24, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
2005:11:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1970:10:53, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1913:10:47, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1898:10:40, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1857:10:26, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1843:Personal attack removed
1835:11:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1821:10:13, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1781:11:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1767:10:10, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1735:10:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1672:09:09, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1645:or escalate matters to
1623:Template:Region history
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1570:05:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1553:01:52, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1539:23:01, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
1520:21:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
1487:20:35, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
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1380:19:57, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
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907:Shulaveri-Shomu culture
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889:Bronze Age of Georgia
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4029:beat this dead horse
3950:most other countries
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328:There is now one at
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1614:. Going about the
1011:Kingdom of Abkhazia
941:Classical Antiquity
902:Kura-Araxes culture
883:Prehistoric Georgia
808:please establish a
628:Kingdom of Abkhazia
586:Classical Antiquity
579:Prehistoric Georgia
464:markup. Thank you.
463:</noinclude: -->
308:Kingdom of Abkhazia
260:WikiProject History
3568:consensus building
3443:but to Bronze Age.
3195:Template:Georgians
3049:Early Independence
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2855:History of Georgia
2429:heavy to the eye)
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2282:Kingdom of Kakheti
2262:Bagrationi dynasty
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2132:History of Georgia
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1647:Dispute Resolution
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593:Kingdom of Colchis
563:History of Georgia
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111:content assessment
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2365:List of Kings
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1643:third opinion
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969:Roman Georgia
967:
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964:Egrisi-Lazica
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607:Roman Georgia
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583:
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535:parameter to
526:
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442:parameter to
433:
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394:
393:editprotected
388:
377:
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316:Abkhazian SSR
313:
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287:
270:
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48:
47:Learn to edit
44:
41:
36:
35:
32:
31:
26:
22:
18:
17:
4230:Magioladitis
4199:
4181:
4162:Plastikspork
4144:
4141:
4112:
4068:
4065:
4014:
4011:
3971:
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3916:
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3865:
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3805:
3802:
3752:
3749:
3717:
3714:
3695:Plastikspork
3679:
3676:
3664:
3646:
3628:). Thanks!--
3619:
3593:WP:LOWERCASE
3586:
3582:
3565:
3556:
3546:
3539:
3531:
3494:WP:LOWERCASE
3490:don't own it
3456:
3423:
3397:
3379:
3366:solutions.--
3354:
3149:
2971:Tao-Klarjeti
2845:
2816:
2733:
2689:List of Wars
2664:
2649:
2648:
2636:
2604:
2603:
2591:
2582:
2532:
2531:
2519:
2407:
2370:List of Wars
2316:20th century
2300:19th century
2122:
2106:
2105:
2093:
2089:
2086:
2069:
2066:
2055:
2052:
2038:
2035:
2019:
1963:
1962:
1950:
1935:
1891:
1890:
1878:
1872:
1814:
1813:
1801:
1760:
1759:
1747:
1665:
1664:
1652:
1639:
1620:
1604:
1595:
1414:confusing?--
1236:Arab Georgia
1233:
1214:
990:Arab Georgia
843:
805:
775:β Preceding
766:
747:
682:Georgian SSR
553:
544:
536:
525:edit request
493:
478:
474:
457:pp-protected
451:
443:
432:edit request
416:Edit request
407:
400:
383:
305:
258:
170:
117:WikiProjects
106:
19:This is the
4200:thank you.
4009:yesterday.
3731:you like it
3559:tendentious
3435:Similarly,
3363:this change
3245:the rest?--
2887:Kura Araxes
2677:Abkhaz ASSR
509:New section
475:Correct it!
376:WP:GOLDLOCK
334:Enric Naval
4247:Categories
3542:disruptive
3532:I've left
3453:reverting.
3096:Chronology
2877:Bronze Age
2871:Prehistory
2355:Chronology
2161:Bronze Age
2148:Prehistory
1798:. Thanks
869:Chronology
820:template.
529:|answered=
436:|answered=
3630:Susuman77
3601:template.
3498:Susuman77
3459:Susuman77
3412:Susuman77
3386:Susuman77
3368:Susuman77
3315:Susuman77
3277:Susuman77
3247:Susuman77
3218:Susuman77
3007:Samegrelo
2939:Arab Rule
2901:Antiquity
2891:Shulaveri
2786:Susuman77
2777:changes?(
2764:Susuman77
2702:Susuman77
2698:Arab rule
2620:Susuman77
2562:Susuman77
2491:Susuman77
2458:Susuman77
2443:Susuman77
2435:Colchians
2236:Arab rule
2029:Colchians
1997:Susuman77
1941:WP:PREFER
1934:style of
1827:Susuman77
1796:WP:PREFER
1773:Susuman77
1727:Susuman77
1678:standard:
1612:WP:PREFER
1562:Dj777cool
1531:Susuman77
1512:Susuman77
1461:Susuman77
1416:Susuman77
1401:Susuman77
1352:Susuman77
1322:Susuman77
1307:Susuman77
1273:Susuman77
1241:Susuman77
933:Colchians
810:consensus
806:Not done:
387:consensus
361:Shortcuts
181:Georgians
83:if needed
66:Be polite
27:template.
21:talk page
4226:Frietjes
4202:Frietjes
4058:Frietjes
4043:Frietjes
4001:Frietjes
3986:Frietjes
3954:Frietjes
3889:Frietjes
3845:Frietjes
3823:Frietjes
3780:Frietjes
3735:Frietjes
3669:Frietjes
3653:RMCD bot
3358:template
3023:Kldekari
3015:Meskheti
3011:Abkhazia
2979:Abkhazia
2895:Trialeti
2883:Colchian
2846:a series
2843:Part of
2685:Abkhazia
2123:a series
2120:Part of
2043:Iberians
1944:account.
1608:contribs
928:Iberians
844:a series
841:Part of
789:contribs
777:unsigned
554:a series
551:Part of
310:through
107:template
51:get help
3606:Kartlos
3437:Diauehi
3116:Battles
3003:Svaneti
2983:Imereti
2967:Kakheti
2915:Diauehi
2911:Colchis
2439:Colchis
2200:Colchis
2184:Diauehi
959:Diauehi
954:Colchis
402:Wifione
398:Thanks.
369:WP:FULL
314:to the
274:History
265:History
224:History
177:Georgia
4217:Jaqeli
4131:Lfdder
4115:Lfdder
3766:WP:OWN
3622:WP:DDE
3610:Hellen
3179:style.
3087:Topics
3027:Aragvi
2987:Hereti
2963:Kartli
2919:Lazica
2907:Iberia
2849:on the
2679:, the
2637:Wesley
2592:Wesley
2520:Wesley
2347:Topics
2210:Lazica
2126:on the
2094:Wesley
1951:Wesley
1879:Wesley
1802:Wesley
1748:Wesley
1653:Wesley
1502:3. As
1477:Done!
949:Iberia
847:on the
822:Anomie
557:on the
497:Anomie
320:Ghirla
113:scale.
4228:. --
3106:Kings
3031:Ksani
3019:Racha
2999:Guria
2734:Meowy
2665:Meowy
2650:Mouse
2605:Mouse
2533:Mouse
2107:Mouse
1964:Mouse
1892:Mouse
1815:Mouse
1761:Mouse
1666:Mouse
1577:Kober
1169:Lists
781:Vozce
533:|ans=
523:This
470:hotch
440:|ans=
430:This
105:This
79:Seek
4234:talk
4206:talk
4137:this
4119:talk
4047:talk
3990:talk
3958:talk
3893:talk
3849:talk
3839:and
3835:see
3827:talk
3784:talk
3739:talk
3634:talk
3516:talk
3502:talk
3479:talk
3463:talk
3416:talk
3402:and
3390:talk
3372:talk
3333:talk
3319:talk
3304:talk
3281:talk
3266:talk
3251:talk
3236:talk
3222:talk
3193:and
3111:Wars
2829:talk
2790:talk
2779:talk
2768:talk
2750:talk
2721:talk
2706:talk
2624:talk
2586:bold
2566:talk
2495:talk
2487:here
2477:talk
2462:talk
2447:talk
2431:here
2360:Name
2001:talk
1936:your
1909:talk
1853:talk
1831:talk
1777:talk
1731:talk
1602:talk
1566:talk
1549:talk
1535:talk
1516:talk
1483:talk
1465:talk
1450:talk
1420:talk
1405:talk
1376:talk
1356:talk
1341:talk
1326:talk
1311:talk
1292:talk
1277:talk
1262:talk
1245:talk
785:talk
494:Done
338:talk
332:. --
318:. --
179:and
68:and
3612:in
3557:Is
3512:CMD
3410:.--
3329:CMD
2746:CMD
2717:CMD
2473:CMD
1545:CMD
531:or
438:or
4249::
4236:)
4208:)
4166:βΕ
4121:)
4049:)
4039:}}
4033:{{
3992:)
3960:)
3952:?
3946:}}
3940:{{
3936:}}
3930:{{
3909:}}
3903:{{
3895:)
3885:}}
3879:{{
3851:)
3829:)
3796:,
3786:)
3776:}}
3770:{{
3741:)
3699:βΕ
3636:)
3571::
3544:.
3518:)
3504:)
3481:)
3465:)
3418:)
3392:)
3374:)
3335:)
3321:)
3306:)
3283:)
3268:)
3253:)
3238:)
3224:)
2831:)
2792:)
2781:)
2770:)
2752:)
2723:)
2708:)
2626:)
2568:)
2497:)
2479:)
2464:)
2449:)
2003:)
1911:)
1855:)
1833:)
1779:)
1733:)
1633:,
1629:,
1568:)
1560:--
1551:)
1537:)
1518:)
1485:)
1467:)
1452:)
1422:)
1407:)
1378:)
1358:)
1343:)
1328:)
1320:--
1313:)
1294:)
1279:)
1264:)
1247:)
818:}}
814:{{
791:)
787:β’
537:no
467:Tb
460:}}
454:{{
444:no
395:}}
391:{{
340:)
49:;
4232:(
4204:(
4190:)
4133::
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